PDA

View Full Version : olive oil?


Linda Boebinger
09-29-2001, 10:34 AM
I realize this is probably a ridiculous question, but can olive oil be used as a medium, or ingredient in a medium for use with oil paints? (With or without garlic? :D)

Verdaccio
09-29-2001, 11:49 AM
Oil paints are based on "drying" oils - this means oils which will upon exposure to oxygen, undergo a chemical transformation creating the leather like coat of "dry" oil.

To my knowledge, the only real "drying" oils are:

Linseed
Walnut
Safflower
Poppy

So I believe that olive oil would not dry but would stay wet essentially forever.

Mario
09-29-2001, 06:29 PM
My Italian barber once told me that Olive Oil was good for using during Sex.:evil: :angel:

Linda Boebinger
09-29-2001, 06:48 PM
Thanks Michael....I wasn't sure if other than traditional oils could be used and now I know why!

Mario - wonder if that's cause it never dries up?:evil: Sorry....this is getting away from the forum topic.... :rolleyes:

sarkana
09-30-2001, 05:34 PM
though i know of several painters who have experimented with olive oil, i certainly don't recommend it. it doesn't ever really dry and its always really greasy.

i have been using walnut oil for its lovely apprearance and slower drying rate. you don't have to go to an art supply store for walnut or safflower oil, they are readily available at your local health food store. just make sure you get the kind *without* vitamin E as a preservative. tocopherol (vitamin E) interferes with the natural drying action of the oils. i have used spectrum brand oils to good effect.

we will be using walnut oil this winter to make "edible" paints from paprika, turmeric and other botanicals!

Linda Boebinger
09-30-2001, 07:46 PM
Thanks Sarkana. I'll have to check the Farmacias here to see if they carry walnut or safflower oil. You mention that walnut oil has a slower drying rate, what about safflower oil? And if you use either in a mix for a medium, what proportions do you use?

Also, I hate to sound stupid, but is that safflower oil as in the cooking oil?

Leslie M. Ficcaglia
10-01-2001, 09:46 AM
Someone on an artist's list who both teaches and creates wonderful art responded to my query about various mediums and oils. Here is his post:

"Walnut oil is very similar to linseed oil, and dries a bit slower. Until the Baroque period it was equally common to grind oil paints with linseed oil or with walnut oil. Poppyseed oil dries slower than both walnut and linseed oil. As poppyseed oil does not dry to a strong film, it is seldom used to grind paints. Rather, it is used in medium to retard the drying of oil paints. Be careful not to use too much poppyseed oils in the medium. Else, the paint will wrinkle when dried. Another method to retard the drying, is to use oil of cloves. A few drops of cloves oil to a pint of medium will do. If you can't find oil of cloves, oil of lavender does the same trick.

There are three basic grades of nut oils: cold pressed, hot pressed, and chemical extracted. Of these three grades, cold pressed oils are the best. Warm pressed oils are fine so long that they are refined. Chemical extracted oils are non-drying and not suitable for painting. I recommended Hains Walnut Oil because I spoke with their chemist and he ensured me that this oil is cold pressed, with the press only slightly warm before they stop the extraction."

I picked up some Hains Walnut Oil but haven't tried it yet.

Leslie

Linda Boebinger
10-01-2001, 10:03 AM
Thanks for the info Leslie. Living in Mexico has a lot of advantages and the area where I am is very beautiful....but.....access to some art supplies is also very limited. I can buy any "non liquid" supplies and have them shipped in (after paying customs, shipping charges, etc. which are very high). However, any oils, mediums, gesso, etc. have to be purchased here. I do miss the easy availability of a lot of things I took for granted in the States.

paintfool
10-01-2001, 12:22 PM
Linda, until your last post i was wondering why the inquiry. Now i understand. How tough that must be! But yes, i do believe the safflower oil Sarkana spoke of is the cooking safflower oil. It is available in the grocery stores. (at least it is here) I've never used it.
Cheryl

owens1299
10-01-2001, 06:18 PM
This was a great thread to read about... I have learned so much in just a short span about the oils in paints... do many of you grind your own colors together for your paintings?

Titanium
10-02-2001, 07:41 AM
Linda ,
[ There are many drying oils , some dry faster
and cure harder than linseed oil , some slower ].


Walnut oil is easily extracted , by passing the
kernels of edible walnuts through the food
processor , then boiling in a large pot of water.

The oil comes to the surface and can be ladled
off . Then the oil [ there will some impurities
- water ground walnut powder , etc.] can be
gently heated in a separate pot until you first
start to fry.

Cool and bottle . Over a week , all the finest
particles will settle at the bottom.
Just remove carefully , test for drying and use.

Colour will be palest yellow to light gold .

I can produce a gallon or two if needed , in a day.
[ you do need lots of walnuts. ]

The above also works on Linseed , but I have a
few muscle mutts , do the corn milling of the seed.

As to Traditional Gesso , well you can buy 5 lbs of
Plaster of Paris and put it in a large bucket filled
with water [ about 2 " of water over the gesso ]
and just turn it up for about a week or two .About
3 to 5 times a day . Then go to once daily .
After a month or two , the setting power goes and
the water can be poured off.
Dry the plaster of paris and repowder [ crumbles
easily ].

Viola -------- Traditional Gesso.[ Italian ]

There in Mexico , you will find both the seeds for a
Mexican Tropical Poppy [ called Argemone Mexicana
- a drying oil , used for oil painting ] and Chia [ salvia
hispanica - used in Mexican drinks ].

Other drying oils -

Sun Flower
Candlenut [ Kukui ].

Test cooking oils for drying by applying a very thin coat of
oil to canvas .

Safflower , Sunflower , usually takes 7 days as Oil , 5 days
when mulled into pigment as paint .[ Faster in dry , hot air ]

All of that said , Walnut Oil is available down here [ Caribbean ]
and at times Linseed Oil .

If you can get it - bees wax - pigment - and mineral spirits will
also make a paint . Simply put the ingredients - by weight -
10 gms wax to 5 gms pigment to enough solvent to make it
soft , in a bottle and place in the sun . Shake well when
the wax melts.
Apply as thin coats.
[ I also keep Africanised Bees - virgin wax is plentiful for
my needs ]

Sorry to hear that art supplies are so difficult to get in
Mexico .
I pre-planned for the same problem here in the West Indies [ Caribbean ] and it never happened . Weird huh ???
Titanium

Linda Boebinger
10-02-2001, 08:14 AM
This is great information Titanium. I'll print it out and save it. Thanks.

Imagine my shock when I went to the grocery store and found bottles of walnut and safflower oil on the shelf. Guess I just hadn't noticed them before. And from the ingredients, they're both pure oils.

I have no problem getting linseed oil although only in small bottles. The standards are available since there's a large community of artists in the area. Same with gesso, though I can't get it large quantities. Your recipe for gesso is something I can use. At the end of the process, when you grind up the dried plaster of paris, you mix it with what...water? to form the liquid for application.

My main problem is painting mediums...things like Liquin. I've seen some of the recipes posted in this forum, but they invariably contain ingredients I can't get - ie I can get plain turps but not the variations. Have never seen Canadian Balsam and the art supply store people give me blank looks...lol. I can get damar varnish, a Cobalt dryer liquid that's blue in color (of course) and comes in a small bottle, etc. If you have any recipes for mediums which don't require (at least outide the US) esoteric ingredients, I'd appreciate it. I don't use much, but would like to have something on hand when I need it...particularly now that I'm playing around with glazing.

Again, thanks for the help.

sarkana
10-02-2001, 11:19 AM
wow, titanium, thanks tons for the walnut oil extraction process! i'm going to consider making some just to see what its like.

linda, there are tons of recipes for traditional painting mediums that you can generally make with stuff you find at the grocery. i highly recommend robert massey's _formulas for painters_ (i know they carry this on amazon) which has more recipes in it than i will ever be able to make. i have posted some of my favorites on my website (address below), and you can find a wealth of information at http://www.studioproducts.com/forum/forum.html .

also, i don't know what the hardware stores are like in mexico, but i am surprised by how many good art supplies i find at mine here in brooklyn. i have found linseed oil, pure gum turpentine, denatured alcohol, japan drier at mine and all at reasonable prices and good quality. i'm never going to buy turps anywhere else!

mmza
10-02-2001, 12:17 PM
This thread is very informative. I've always used linseed oil, mainly because I didn't know what the other oils where used for... I mistakenly bought a bottle of stand oil instead of linseed once. It's as thick as honey! Can anyone tell me what the benifits are with Stand oil & how they use it ?


thanks!

~mmza

Verdaccio
10-02-2001, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by mmza
This thread is very informative. I've always used linseed oil, mainly because I didn't know what the other oils where used for... I mistakenly bought a bottle of stand oil instead of linseed once. It's as thick as honey! Can anyone tell me what the benifits are with Stand oil & how they use it ?


thanks!

~mmza

OH BOY!!! STAND OIL!!! I simply love the stuff!

Stand Oil is either Heat Processed (Bodied Kim?) or Sun Thickened Linseed Oil. It is an essential ingredient in many painting mediums including several of mine. I use it in the following ways:

I mix a drop or two of Stand Oil in my paint piles - makes them flow and brush much better, gives them a slight jewel like quality, and they dry somewhat glossier.

And again, thanks Kim: I have a final layer painting medium composed of 11 parts Rectified Turpentine to 1 part Stand Oil. You spray it on and let the turp evaporate - leaves a very thin coat of stand oil on the surface - great for painting in very fine details.

And Kim: Eastlake page 331 for a method of clarifying nut oil - I know you have read it, but just wanted to make sure you knew that I am reading and learning.... :)

Titanium
10-02-2001, 01:11 PM
Linda -

IMPORTANT !!!

The spent plaster of paris , is for use in Traditional Gesso.

You still need Rabbit Skin Glue.

_______________________________

For mediums - Got a Ralph Mayer - .

You can combine Stand Oil [ or Sun Thickened Oil for
faster drying ] , with Walnut Oil .
A very little Dammar in solvent can be added to
the above .

And Ralph Mayer has a recipe using the above plus
a very little cobalt drier.

You already have all the ingredients to make medium.
No need for Liquin .
No sweat .

You can also make your own sun thickened oil .
Titanium

Titanium
10-02-2001, 01:23 PM
Michael ,

just remember to spray the stand oil on
and put pigment into it .

Stand Oil with age will yellow , as will all
oils , resins and oleoresins [ some brown ].

You need the pigment to mask the yellowing.

Good to see your reading .

However , I got my walnut oil refining technique
from the little old lady , who sold the vegetables
across the street from my apartment in Florence.

Italian Walnuts have more oil than California
Walnuts.
For fun I did some extracting in January and got so
much less from the California grown.
Titanium

Titanium
10-02-2001, 01:28 PM
Shannon ,

the answer is yes , a few of us do hand mull our
own paints.

Sarkana would be a good person to talk to about
this .
Stay Well ,
Khaimraj

impressionist2
10-02-2001, 02:23 PM
Linda, I have two great uses for your olive oil, since most of us agree it doesn't make a great medium. The first is to saute the best chicken cutlet breasts ever ( after coating them with a beaten egg and Progresso italian bread crumbs). No kidding, they're fantastic. :) The second and more arty use is to use it to clean your brushes. Charles Sovek recommended this and it works great!! Ofcourse, cheaper vegeatble oil is a more economical choice and now all my Kolinsky sables get the oil cleaning method and stay soft. Just squeegee the oil out before painting next time. Renee http://www.longislandfineart.com

Titanium
10-02-2001, 04:31 PM
Hello Renee ,

nice to see you around.

Down here , you can buy Sunflower Oil ,
by the gallons . Works as well as Olive
Oil and won't retard drying [ too much ].

I won't tell you what happened to the last
student who mixed olive oil with a drying
oil and had a permanently wet painting.

Take care.
Titanium .

Mario
10-03-2001, 10:03 PM
I just bought a bunch of red sable brushes and would like to hear about good ways to care for them...this cleaning in oil sounds good, do you leave them wet? Do you remove the vegetable oil with soap and then dry them? How can you be sure that the oil left on the brush dosen't contain pigment too?? any comments will be greatly appreciated..:confused:

impressionist2
10-04-2001, 06:32 AM
Mario, Hi. Charles Sovek was one of my first workshop oil painting teachers. Here's his link to the Plein Air Painters of America:http://www.p-a-p-a.com/CSresume.html Charles is kind of a low key gentlemenly hippie, traveling with his van loaded with paintings from one workshop to another. I don't like his painting on the PAPA page but there's a link to his website at the bottom of his PAPA Bio. Over the last few years he has totally altered his colors from the beautiful blues and softness I so admired years ago. Now he is into harsh primaries. Why? Who knows. :confused: He gets criticized a lot for being sloppy but he was the first influence on me to loosen up. I kind of have outgrown him and moved on to other artists like Ken Auster, and Schmid but I will always have a place in my art heart for him and be grateful for his book, "Oil Painting, Develop Your Natural Ability" and his excellent teaching. Renee Brown http://www.LongIslandFineArt.com

impressionist2
10-04-2001, 06:51 AM
Mario, I use solvent first to get most of the paint out and then swish the brush around in the oil and scrape the edge of the brush on the side of the plastic cup to extract almost all of the pigment till it starts swiping clean. I leave enough oil on the brush to keep it soft and before I paint with it next time, I pull it through a soft cloth to get most of the oil out. If you really want to be conscientious, you could always do one more dip in solvent and wipe before painting. Sovek recommends veg. oil as a safe solvent to carry for trips on planes ( for the hardy among us) Renee http://www.LongIslandFineArt.com

Scott Methvin
10-04-2001, 11:31 AM
Really expensive brushes are not so easy to clean. The kolynski sable and the red sables are far more difficult to take care of than the bristle brushes. I have used everything from -Murphy's oil to olive oil to keep my series 7s in perfect condition. Non drying oils seem like a good idea. They won't really do any "cleaning", just basically loosen up some of the pigment on the hairs as you swish them around. As far as being a conditioner, remember that the oil will collect itself into the base of the brush where the hairs are tighly packed into the ferule. If you get swelling in that area, it will affect the way the hairs sharpen into a point. I have seen this happen.

The best practice is to always use a final soap cleaning and water rinse. I use a linseed oil soap that Cennini makes -"Ugly Dog." It is the best I have ever used. It also conditions safely. The main thing is to really clean the brush. None of the commercial brush cleaners really clean the brushes well-like the ugly dog. I have tried them all.

After I paint with oils, I wipe off the brush with a paper towel, use a bit of my medium (linseed and canada balsam ) CB is a mild solvent also. This cleans the pigment out pretty well. I also try to never let the pigment-paint work it's way to the heel of the brush. Start out with wetting the brush in medium, wipe it off and paint using 2/3 of the brush only. Not dipping the whole thing into the paint-ever. Takes practice, but is the best way to use a good brush. You get all the performance the brush is capable of.

Bristle brushes are another story. Because they are far less expensive, and made of entirely different hairsthe rules are different. Solvents can also be used where they can not on the kolynskis. (They will dry out of shape and never come back)

For good sables and kolynskis, good thorough soap and water cleaning is the only safe way to go. If you don't use any brushes that cost from $50 to 200, use anything you want.

ArtBabe
10-16-2001, 01:28 AM
What an informative thread!

I just bought my first Kolinskys--five of them--weehaa!...had been using bristle brushes for years and, from what I have read here, have abused them terribly (although they are still behaving quite decently). Thank you for your technical expertise.

Noble
10-16-2001, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Linda Boebinger
This is great information Titanium. I'll print it out and save it. Thanks.

[snip]
My main problem is painting mediums...things like Liquin. I've seen some of the recipes posted in this forum, but they invariably contain ingredients I can't get - ie I can get plain turps but not
[snipped]
Again, thanks for the help.

So far (only a handful of oils done to date) I've used Liquin undiluted for everything except my wash in where I used turps and a little color (burnt sienna, ultramarine & white in varying proportions).

I love the gel like quality so that just a little on the pallete is useable instead of the little dipper cups. I love that the painting is dry the next day, am I using this medium outside of its intended purpose? Is it primarly for glazing or all around use?

What does it fail to do that would suggest my using something else at times? One thing I would like to know is when blocking in rather large areas I would like to have a medium that allows the paint to flow easily but not make the paint so transparent, which liquin seems to do.

Thanks to all for their experience and helpful input!

Pilan
10-16-2001, 01:03 PM
WOW! I just can't tell you all how much I am learning here. This is super. I have just recently used for the first time stand oil. I made my own mixture up and do love it. I experienced with painting a 5x7 smaller Monet oranges, plus added another orange. I have attached a scan of the painting. If I had not been using stand oil, I could not have achieved the strokes these strokes. Its like heaven :angel:

BTW Verdaccio, I used to live in Littleton and on a small ranchette in Parker Co. Nice countryside.

Pilan


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Verdaccio
[B]

OH BOY!!! STAND OIL!!! I simply love the stuff!

Pilan
10-16-2001, 01:25 PM
Right on, I have two Kolinskys and really like them. However, I still use my Isabey hog brushes for the way I paint. Recently, realized that Kolinskys do have hog bristle brushes and may try a couple soon. Just spent a ton of money on supplies, but then I just never can have too much.

Pilan

Originally posted by ArtBabe
What an informative thread!

I just bought my first Kolinskys--five of them--weehaa!...had been using bristle brushes for years and, from what I have read here, have abused them terribly (although they are still behaving quite decently). Thank you for your technical expertise.

Pilan
10-16-2001, 01:36 PM
I used liquin before a couple of times and did not like the way it chunked up. I could never get it to mix properly. So, I just used turpinoid which someone told me, I believe Michael on this list, not to use it like this. So, I listened and proceeded to search for other ways such as linseed oil. Then I found out how to mix a damar, linseed/standoil and artist gum turpentine mixture. Also, I use stand oil by itsself in the oils. Its great and does not dilute my oil colors. If you have not used this, you should try it.

Pilan

Originally posted by Noble


So far (only a handful of oils done to date) I've used Liquin undiluted for everything except my wash in where I used turps and a little color (burnt sienna, ultramarine & white in varying proportions).

I love the gel like quality so that just a little on the pallete is useable instead of the little dipper cups. I love that the painting is dry the next day, am I using this medium outside of its intended purpose? Is it primarly for glazing or all around use?

What does it fail to do that would suggest my using something else at times? One thing I would like to know is when blocking in rather large areas I would like to have a medium that allows the paint to flow easily but not make the paint so transparent, which liquin seems to do.

Thanks to all for their experience and helpful input!

mmza
10-16-2001, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Noble


One thing I would like to know is when blocking in rather large areas I would like to have a medium that allows the paint to flow easily but not make the paint so transparent, which liquin seems to do.


Hi Noble,

I used Liquin a lot when I first started painting. It's nice because of the quick drying time. If you use a lot of the medium, it's also excellent for glazing. I don't know if you are using too much medium which maybe causing the transparent problem??
Usually, it's a good thing for the paint to be fairly "thin" when blocking in an area.
Most of the time, not enough paint on the canvas is cause by not loading the brush enough, or even not having enough paint on the pallet! :)
Supposedly, the actual bistols of the bush should never touch the canvas, only the paint on it.... I'm still working on that one.
;)


~mmza

http://workshopcrew.com

Noble
10-16-2001, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by mmza

[snip]
of the quick drying time. If you use a lot of the medium, it's also excellent for glazing. I don't know if you are using too much medium which maybe causing the transparent problem??
Usually, it's a good thing for the paint to be fairly "thin" when blocking in an area.
Most of the time, not enough paint on the canvas is cause by not loading the brush enough, or even not having enough paint on the pallet! :)
[snip]

http://workshopcrew.com

I'm rather stingy when it comes to putting out paint on the pallet I suppose... That is probably most of the problem since I use the medium to extend what little I have out there. I should use more paint no question.

I like haveing more paint on the end of the brush and not so much inside the bristles, if I work it into the brush it seems to stay in the bristles instead of getting on the canvas.

Mario
10-16-2001, 11:36 PM
Hi Noble.....you are right on with your observations....too little paint on your pallete is NOT good....stand oil IS good...Lots of paint high up in the bristles of the brush is NOT good....natural BRISTLE brushes will trap the paint there and any kind of brush will be hurt by this...solution? Dip the brush in medium first, it will resist the paint going high up to the ferrel...only load the tip but load it good! Get red sables or imitation sable (nylon)...natural bristles (boar?) are just too rigid...they dig and shovel paint instead of laying it on nicely.....sweetly...transparently....jewel like.... illuminated....oily......deliciously....smoothly....Like a magic wand is what you want in a brushstoke of oil paint.....you wish this color was there...and magic..it is!!!! smooth...loose.....gentle....light....this is what you want in a brush full of oil pigment.....lay it on like butter...the stand oil 50/50 with turponoid will do it.......greese!:evil:

Noble
10-17-2001, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Mario
[snip]
...only load the tip but load it good! Get red sables or imitation sable (nylon)...natural bristles (boar?) are just too rigid...they dig and shovel paint instead of laying it on nicely.....sweetly...transparently....jewel like.... illuminated....oily......deliciously....smoothly....Like a magic wand is what you want in a brushstoke of oil paint.....you wish this color was there...and magic..it is!!!! smooth...loose.....gentle....light....this is what you want in a brush full of oil pigment.....lay it on like butter...the stand oil 50/50 with turponoid will do it.......greese!:evil:

You *go* Mario! :D I've yet to try stand oil, but I'm gonna give it a whirl. How long does it take to dry? Maybe a drop of cobalt drier in a dipper full would work, or should I get a jar or something and make a larger batch? Generally, I would like it to be dry enough to work the next day.

I do have some small synthetic (nylon) brushes for fine detail in portrait faces etc and I must say they are incredible in realm of delicacy of paint application. I only use them at the end stage or really delicate skin tone painting...

So then to mix colors using that method do you use a pallet knife? Generally I've just mixed with the end of the brush, a dip here and a dip there, mush it around a tad and on to the canvas. But, that method has a tendancy to work the paint into the bristles more than I wish, how do you mix your colors on the pallete?

Pilan
10-17-2001, 01:21 PM
Noble, the mixture I use is 1part stand oil, 1 part damar, to 3 parts gum turpentine. I also put two tiny drops of cobalt drier in it. It is dry to touch within a few hours, litterally. Now, this is a bit glossier than I prefer but then I am not sure the same results would be as good without the gloss.

As other experienced medium mixers here can probably give you a bit more technical help, but the mixture I am using is dry the same day.

Pilan


Originally posted by Noble


You *go* Mario! :D I've yet to try stand oil, but I'm gonna give it a whirl. How long does it take to dry? Maybe a drop of cobalt drier in a dipper full would work, or should I get a jar or something and make a larger batch? Generally, I would like it to be dry enough to work the next day.

Mario
10-17-2001, 04:23 PM
First of all Linda...How can a "rediculous" question lead to such a well subscribed thread? answer: we/it are all rediculous!
Noble...Continue to mix with the brush rather than with a pallete knife...why? Because the knife will DULL the mixture....crushing the pigments together...the brush will swirl it a little and leave both colors still evident rather than a greyish paste...and how to not get the paint up high into the bristles? I don't know, just pay attention and do it with a little more finness.
I am very pleased with this thread because it is so relevant to the day to day problems of laying on the paint and that it gave me the opportunity to pass along the instruction of my teachers who are the best in this country and quite possibly the best artist/teachers in the world.....Philadelphia is a GREAT art town!!:D

mmza
10-17-2001, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Mario
Continue to mix with the brush rather than with a pallete knife...why? Because the knife will DULL the mixture....crushing the pigments together...

...and how to not get the paint up high into the bristles? I don't know, just pay attention and do it with a little more finness.


Hey Mario,

The knife dulling the mixture... I've never given it that much thought before :) I always thought it would be better to use a knife, but it always seemed faster for me to just mix with the brush.
I'm really bad about getting paint into the furrow ( I think that's what it's called?) part of the brush... Thanks for reminding people this is a BAD thing. I go through too many brushes because I can't break this habit.

On a different note, Has anyone tried Oleopasto <sp> ? It's great stuff if you are working wet-into-wet, and you want a bold stroke to lay cleanly on top rather than mushing in with the wet paint.

~mmza


http://www.workshopcrew.com

ldallen
10-17-2001, 07:41 PM
Hi mmza -it's the "ferrule." After a time it's almost impossible not to get some paint into the ferrule, but I keep my old brushes for mixing and "try" not to get paint too far down on my better brushes. I'm getting better at it because it's a lot easier to clean if you don't get too messy!!