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SweetBabyJ
06-15-2004, 03:41 PM
I really liked the photo I tried in the WDE this past week, and wanted to do it a bit better justice than two hours at my hands could manage. I liked the idea of making the room old, and dusty-dirty-dim, but those chairs and that table just glow in the sun pouring like honey into the room. I kept it as minimal as possible whilst trying to make sure the angles were right (I think the ref photo was taken with a wide-angle lense- there was a good deal of distortion). If you see anything glaring, let me know, but I don't want to nit-pick it to death but kept so all areas are "finished" to the same degree.

Mix of all kindsa softies on a full sheet of this odd greenish-yellowish-ickish LaCarte

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jun-2004/9169-chairs02.jpg

Kathryn Wilson
06-15-2004, 04:02 PM
Hi Julie - since I did this painting also, I can attest to how many perspective points there are involved. You did a great job on the first in the time-frame we had to do it in, but this one shows more study and finesse and I like it a lot. :clap:

One perspective line that bothers me is the top of the wainscotting on the left - not sure that one is correct - but easily fixable. It's not off much.

Also, the sunlight under the chairs doesn't read right - if the sun is coming in from the left and shining on the backs and legs of the chairs - so should the sunlight too to some extent.

I see you added some extra things to the painting! I like the idea of the door on the left that is open to let the sunlight in, but does it stop the eye from coming into the painting? - let's see what others have to say about that.

Good job!

Dark_Shades
06-15-2004, 05:43 PM
Slow, Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow :)

...... . SBJ..... I LOVEEeeeeeeee this :clap: .... I really liked what you did before.... but this is even better..... I love it when things go 'solid' ... I could pick those chairs up.... I could sit on them .... eat from that table lol .... love it..... but I would love to see abit more tweaking.... punch up a bit the door knob.... and treat the door panels as you have the shadow in the cupboard... will make them more solid .... and just ground those chair legs, the ones without shadows ...... I love the shadow and light within the cupboard.... but the only real nit pick, and I have to mention it, is the open cupboard door.... I cant really read which way it is ..... I think some shadows would help.... or it getting darker as it goes toward the hinge..... but the main thing is the perspective.... you have kept it as viewed from lower down, but the view point from the chairs would be straight on.... you would need to make the door actually longer..... Ive tried it in PSP and it works better.... I also made the thickness of the door edge wider ;)

....... I hope you work on it a bit more..... its TOO Good not to ...... love it.... for me your best to date :clap:

Kitty Wallis
06-15-2004, 05:54 PM
Very nice interior. I like the simplicity of the living style portrayed. As Dawn says, It feels solid.

It might be my monitor. For me, the orange walls pop off the plane of the wall so much they look like orange curtains hanging in front of the walls with darker orange trim on the bottom of them.

I agree with Kyle about the shadows of the chairs. If you showed the shadow of the more distant chair it would read with the sun on that chair.

Artaholic
06-15-2004, 06:52 PM
Love the honey chairs :) Nice rendition.

Pinecone Conniff
06-15-2004, 07:19 PM
WowWEEE!!
This painting is really something!!...I love the color combination...especially the orange!! :cool:
The sunlight on the floor is magic!
If you decide to make some of the suggested changes---be sure to post it!
And hey!! I use that yellowish geenish ick LaCarte...it's not so bad!!
Annette

SweetBabyJ
06-15-2004, 07:48 PM
Thanks, Kat and Kitty- it isn't that sun belongs under the table, it is that the shadows are wrong- they should be straight right and just a smidge back- which forces under the table to remain dark. I saw that like a slap to the head when I came back in from yardwork this afternoon. So tomorrow I'll dust 'em off and re-do 'em correctly.

That "orange" you see is pretty well dulled down with three different blues, Kitty- I dunno how much more it'll take before it becomes mud, but I'll give it one more sweep with a nice soft blue-grey. As for the door, Kat, I liked the idea of giving a reason for that light spilling in the room- lol- if anyone's blocked by something snugged right up agin' the edge of the piece, harmoniously hue'd, then I'd say they have undisciplined eyes.

Thanks, Dawn- I think that must be it- I've gotta make the cupboard door longer- I "lined of sighted" it, but I really think this pic was a wide-angle shot because the angles are deplorable. No one else noticed I need to move the edge where floor meets wall back more or bring front of dry-sink curtains down to bring that out from the wall? I did- and I do.

We'll see if I don't nitpick it to death, Annette- if it stays fairly "clean", I'll repost. If not- well, let's just say there's a place where misbehaved paintings go in my house....

meowmeow
06-15-2004, 08:06 PM
I love interiors and this is no exception! Aside from the few nitpicks everyone else found I think it's great...I like the orangey and blue...works well together. Just a neat old dusty but sunlit room...very nice!

Sandy

binkie
06-15-2004, 09:05 PM
Oh Julie, I love this painting. It's such a warm and inviting scene. And you do wood soooooooooooooo well!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

gwen

Dyin
06-15-2004, 11:04 PM
Julie, if you haven't touched the orange yet, don't...all it needs is a touch of shadow right above the rail. That will fool the eye into thinking the whole upper wall is set back. I love the addition of the door. If ya overdo it, maybe you should just start this one from scratch again, if you can handle it...it's really a good piece. The chairs and table are magnifico!

Khadres
06-16-2004, 11:10 AM
Really cool! I can really feel a sense of morning sun coming through the door. I have a bit of a problem with the table seeming to be shoved up against the far wall or at least very little space between it and the wall...seems crowded there somehow...like you say, could be the lens the pic was taken with. I agree that the sink curtain needs to be lower to bring that forward, but that's gonna maybe make that table seem further back than it already is? I agree about the cupboard door too. Frankly, I think you've done great with a wonky photo! Trying to figure out just what needs to be adjusted, etc. can't have been easy. Great work!

jackiesimmonds
06-16-2004, 01:45 PM
any chance of seeing the ref photo? I am having real problems understanding the perspective on the bottom of the cupboard door, given where your eye level is in the room........

I could be wrong tho.

J

SweetBabyJ
06-16-2004, 01:52 PM
It's available in the WDE from this past weekend, Jackie, and as I said, looks as if it was taken with a wide-angle lens so ALL of the angles in the ref photo are waaaaaaaaaay off.

Just another reason I didn't bother following the photo closely- I was looking to capture that sunlight more than the room itself. At this point, I've fixed the cupboard door already and it looks "right" now, and I've brushed out the shadows from the chairs and will get them in to the right-back-right rather than coming down front as they do in this pic.

wow- got in under the edit window!

Here it is and a crop I am considering, though not strongly.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Jun-2004/9169-chairs03.jpg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Jun-2004/9169-chairscrop2.jpg

Pinecone Conniff
06-16-2004, 07:07 PM
SBJ--I really like the painting full size! :) If you crop any of the bottom you will lose the nice contrast of the dark area at the very bottom with that wonderful patch of sunlight...And I love the orange so I'd leave the top of the painting as well...
Your cropped image makes the chairs a little too centered...
Have I talked you into leaving the painting whole yet??? :D
Annette

jackiesimmonds
06-17-2004, 01:59 AM
you would think after all this time I would know where to find the WDE, but I have no idea...can anyone enlighten me?

I can see that you have improved the cupboard door, but it still bothers me, and I will explain why. I feel it should be right, because it is a lovely image, with such a calm and peaceful atmosphere, and it seems a shame to have a jarring note.

Now I am quite prepared to be shot down in flames, so if anyone disagrees with this, do say.

In your pic, if we extend the wall angles to the left, using the dado rail, and the floor, we discover that the eye level is quite high, in fact it is above the shelf of the cupboard.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jun-2004/1805-cupboardds.jpg

Now the rule is that angles which are below eye level run UP to the eye level, and angles above eye level run DOWN to the eye level.

In this pic, I made sure that my eye level was ABOVE the base of the cupboard door (DO NOT look at my messy cupboards please...boy am I laying myself open here lol) My eye level was the first shelf in fact

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jun-2004/1805-cupboard2.jpg

In this pic, my eye level was WAY above the base line of the cupboard, and you can see that the angle is much steeper this time. To find the eye level, it is very easy with this pic, simply extend the lines of the decorative bits in the glass door.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jun-2004/1805-cupboard1.jpg

I think these pics prove the rule quite adequately, particularly pic no. 2, where you can see angles both above, and below eye level, those above moving DOWN, and those below moving UP.

So, for your picture, this means that either the angle of the base of your cupboard door is wrong, or else the angles of floor/dado rail are wrong.

You have taken so much time with this pic, it is lovingly and carefully rendered, and it really feel it is worth double-checking all this.


Finally, re the crop or not crop.......my only comment would be that although a light-toned vertical on the left of the pic works within the composition, since it nicely echoes other verticals in the piece, it doesn't make a lot of sense. If the sun is streaming into the room, it would not hit that edge of the door which is facing AWAY from the light.

Since I haven't found the durn WDE, I cannot check all this with the evidence of my own eyes, so I am having to go by experience of similar paintings I have done in the past, and by my own, possibly faulty, knowledge of perspective. Do check what I have said, and prove me wrong by all means.

Jackie

J

prestonsega
06-17-2004, 04:21 AM
The way i see it,,,you can get out your trusty t square. slide rule, compass, ..draw all the details with sharp precision in perfect architectural perspective and call it an illustration..(yawn).....,,OR throw in a couple of drunken poker playing cowboys with possibly a worn out braided area rug on the floor and refer to it as a painting with character.

E-J
06-17-2004, 04:25 AM
Julie, I saw the photo in another thread of you in your 'studio' and wow, this one is BIG! Do you often work at that size? I LOVE the solidity of the furniture and the warm orangey-brown of the sunlit wood against those calm blues and greens is so effective.

No crits from me as I think you've worked miracles with the wonky perspective of the original photo, besides which, you already have some sound advice from Jackie.

The artwork turned out in these WDEs is always of inspiringly high quality, especially from the Pastel contingent :) I have yet to participate in one as Saturday night isn't very convenient for me, but I'm going to give one of the 12 June refs a go tonight, instead. I won't pick this one, though, as it's already been tackled so beautifully by both you and Kat!

E-J
06-17-2004, 04:27 AM
By the way, Jackie - here's a link to the WDE ref images.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195576

jackiesimmonds
06-17-2004, 05:34 AM
The way i see it,,,you can get out your trusty t square. slide rule, compass, ..draw all the details with sharp precision in perfect architectural perspective and call it an illustration..(yawn).....,,OR throw in a couple of drunken poker playing cowboys with possibly a worn out braided area rug on the floor and refer to it as a painting with character.


Well, the way I see it, is that if a job is worth doing, it is worth doing properly. It doesn't have to be all hard-edged and illustration-like; it can still be painterly with plenty of atmosphere, but THE DRAUGHTMANSHIP HAS TO BE RIGHT. It is a matter of using perspective rules (and yes, set square and ruler if necessary) to double check if you aren't sure things are right enough...unless, in your picture, you have decided to chuck all the conventions out of the window and come up with something deliberately distorted. I do not believe this was the artist's intention here. This is an "interior", and I believe SBJ wanted correct perspective....she said she felt that the angles were all "off" and did her best to correct them.

Here is an interior which is clearly not an illustration it is a painting, but the perspective is absolutely accurate. I'd like to bet the artist used a straight-edge - or a careful eye - to double check that her angles were right... and it doesn't make me yawn at all.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jun-2004/1805-Jane_corsellis.jpg

As to the painting in this thread:

Here is the reference pic:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jun-2004/1805-WDEchairs2.jpg

In fact, the angles aren't "off", they are just very strong, and the seeming-exaggeration is due to the fact that the photo was taken from a low viewpoint. As you can see from the overdrawing below, the eye level is in fact very low, just above the table, which is most unusual in an interior:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jun-2004/1805-correct_perspective.jpg

Unfortunately, I could not show you the left-hand vanishing point, because my paper wasn't wide enough, but you can see that it would be well over to the left, but having two angles on the cupboard door was helpful to find vp on the right, giving us the eye level.

So - the problem with the painting is not the cupboard, but the combination of cupboard angles AND those angles on the left-hand side, the floor and the dado rail. If extended, they would never meet at the same eye level and you cannot have more than one eye level in a picture of this kind. The photo is not actually distorted at all, but does have difficult perspective issues to resolve, given that you cannot actually see the angle of the floor to the left.

This may appear nit-picking to some......but others may find my comments helpful, if they have found themselves struggling with perspective of interiors.

SBJ - your painting is beautifully atmospheric, and strong. I really feel it is well worth the time and trouble to get the draughtmanship right.

Kathryn Wilson
06-17-2004, 07:27 AM
Hi Jackie - something I did learn that will be a useful tool for me in the future is to work on the perspective in a small format as you have here. I also did this interior for the WDE and tried to figure out the perspective with a large t-square on my large painting. That certainly didn't work out too well - so this demo of doing the perspective ahead of time in Photoshop on a small image would help at least clarify where the eye level is. I found it difficult because there were so many perspective angles - the chairs, the walls, the door, the cupboard and the cupboard door most of all - all going off in different directions.

I hope you come visit the WDE this Saturday Jackie - the times are posted in the WDE invitation that is posted already. People have 2 hours to paint - then they have to stop and post whatever result they have. Even if you don't participate (it would be fun if you did), it's interesting see the different techniques. It's a "no critique" event - it's more show and tell and huge encouragement for all skill levels alike.

To get there without using the link, I go to the pull-down menu under "Content Areas" - "Discussion Forums" - then scroll down to the "All Media Events" forum.

jackiesimmonds
06-17-2004, 08:07 AM
Hi Jackie - something I did learn that will be a useful tool for me in the future is to work on the perspective in a small format as you have here. I also did this interior for the WDE and tried to figure out the perspective with a large t-square on my large painting. That certainly didn't work out too well - so this demo of doing the perspective ahead of time in Photoshop on a small image would help at least clarify where the eye level is. I found it difficult because there were so many perspective angles - the chairs, the walls, the door, the cupboard and the cupboard door most of all - all going off in different directions.

What you need to do is try to simplify matters for yourself. Everything on the wall to the left is on the same plane; everything on the facing wall, with the door in it, is another plane but anything on it, like the cupboard shelves, which are parallel to the wall, will conform to the same plane. The cupboard door is a third plane, and the angles of its doors might well have a different vanishing point, but at least,in this photo, you have a top to the door, and a bottom, which helps enormously. Once you have two helpful angles like that, you extend them, that gives you a VP, which HAS to be on the eye level, so that is how you find the eye level in this image.

In actual fact, working from a photo like this, the easiest thing to have done, would have been to square it up. This is something you cannot do when you are working directly from your subject, but with a photo, it could not be easier. Once you have squared it up, and squared up your support, then yu can draw freehand, but you have the ability to check that you have everything in the right place.

I hope you come visit the WDE this Saturday Jackie - the times are posted in the WDE invitation that is posted already. People have 2 hours to paint - then they have to stop and post whatever result they have. Even if you don't participate (it would be fun if you did), it's interesting see the different techniques. It's a "no critique" event - it's more show and tell and huge encouragement for all skill levels alike.

To get there without using the link, I go to the pull-down menu under "Content Areas" - "Discussion Forums" - then scroll down to the "All Media Events" forum.
thanks for this. Not sure I will have time to participate, up to my eyebrows in stuff I am not doing when I visit WC as it is! Also - if I am going to work from photos, I far prefer to work from photos I have taken myself, because at least I have seen the scene with my own eyes. I usually feel uncomfortable when working from other people's photos if it is a scene I am completely unfamiliar with. When I visited India, on my return, I did work from a photo someone gave me, but it was an Indian man in white robes resting, and I had seen so many similar scenes on my travels, so it felt OK. Odd bod, aren't I.

Kathryn Wilson
06-17-2004, 08:28 AM
In actual fact, working from a photo like this, the easiest thing to have done, would have been to square it up.

Jackie - not familiar with this term - "square it up" - could you explain.

Well, at least come and visit and see all the excitement at the end of the day.

When I work from photographs taken by others, I tend to change things (or interpret if you will) what the photograph is telling me. I try not to work literally, but more from the feeling portrayed. If I work from my own reference photos, then I have already interpreted from the scene in front of me what I want to paint.

Julie - I didn't mean to highjack your thread - but I do get really high on those WDE's and wanted to share the information.

jackiesimmonds
06-17-2004, 09:25 AM
[QUOTE=kyle]In actual fact, working from a photo like this, the easiest thing to have done, would have been to square it up.

Jackie - not familiar with this term - "square it up" - could you explain.

QUOTE]

You create a grid over the photo, (either by drawing directly onto the photo, or by using tracing paper) and transfer the main shapes in the grid, to a larger grid, created to the same proportions, on your support.(1cm in your baby grid could equal 10 cm for instance in your big grid)

To get the proportions absolutely right, make sure that your paper is in proportion to your photo (or sketch ... this works well with sketches too.)

Here, imagine the photo (or sketch) is the little red rectangle. The pastel paper is behind it. Put the photo against the bottom corner. Put a straight-edge (ruler) from corner to corner on the photo, and extend that line. Anywhere on that line, you can drop down a vertical, and run across a horizontal, , which will give you a paper size which is "in proportion" to the photo. The rest of the paper can be put aside for another use.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jun-2004/1805-squaring_up.jpg

Here is a small rectangle, "squared up", and a bigger rectangle to the same proportions, with the "drawing" starting to be transferred.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/17-Jun-2004/1805-grid.jpg

One of the problems with squaring up, or gridding, is that a certain stiffness will creep in if you transfer every tiny detail. I would suggest you only transfer the biggest, main shapes, and then simply draw the rest in freehand, using the grid to check placements, that's all.

Kathryn Wilson
06-17-2004, 09:48 AM
Thanks Jackie! I have used the grid system once and found it very useful, but wasn't familiar with the term "squared up" - it makes sense tho. Good demonstration too.

:D

SweetBabyJ
06-17-2004, 10:53 AM
Wow! I'm bemused by the passion being shown about such a homey little scene!

Thanks, Jackie, for the perspective advice; I'll certainly be much more careful of my poor draftsmanship if I do the piece ever again. All I wanted was to catch the sun on the floor and chairs- ended up having to include the room so's to give the sun something to illuminate- it was that juxstaposition which still draws my eye. Perhaps, rather than fiddle with it, I'll just crop it into a more vertical comp, and call it Slice of Light.

Preston, d'ya think the cowpokes should have Mason jars or shot glasses? I figure I'll opt for both, that way get a mix of shapes and sizes in that negative space. And whatever would your instructors have said when you were getting a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree had you done a piece like that?!?

Thank you EJ- I like to kind of match the scene to the size of the support, rather than the other way 'round. To me, those chairs demanded more than a tiny piece of paper to make them sing out- so after the WDE and a little regular sized piece of ArtSpectrum, I went to a bigger sheet of LaCarte. I think my biggest piece was 26"x30" or so- but I have a difficult time not getting nit-picky at that size, so I'm usually working smaller now until I learn to trust myself and the medium.

I had a great time doing the WDE, Kat- almost wish it was a requisite or something to do one of those at least three times a year. I do know that, although I was more faithful to the original pic's angles in the WDE 2 hour piece, it *appears* more wrong to my eye- so then I have to wonder which "rule" to follow: Accuracy, or making sure the viewer reads the scene correctly? I s'pose I opted for the latter this time- I'm not the least bit bothered by the lefthand angle. Jackie- perhaps that's the point of these things for the more experienced artists: To force you out of your comfort zone and make you stretch yourself some with something totally unfamiliar, and under conditions which force you to let your brain do its job without interference from the idea of turning out something "worthy" each time. I dunno, though, that's just me- and I may be an odder bod than you.

jackiesimmonds
06-17-2004, 11:17 AM
Wow! I'm bemused by the passion being shown about such a homey little scene!



cannot help it - I take painting VERY seriously, and when I spot something out of kilter, it niggles at me. Sometimes it is the mistakes which give a piece some character, they add a certain je ne sais quoi ...sometimes they just don't make sense and spoil the piece. It is up to the artist to decide which it is!
I've done my bit on this one, found out what it was that bothered me, and why.. That's the value of an open forum like this - people learn from others, not just the artist, but other viewers too.

I hope my explanations were helpful somewhere down the line.

J

SweetBabyJ
06-17-2004, 11:33 AM
Understandable- glad you felt you had something to contribute.

As I said, I'm pretty happy with it now- I'll look at a crop on the left when I mat it.

jackiesimmonds
06-17-2004, 12:09 PM
As I said, I'm pretty happy with it now- I'll look at a crop on the left when I mat it.

Yes, if you crop out the left-hand wall , all will be well.
Onwards and upwards!

J

chatfieldstudios
06-17-2004, 01:24 PM
This has been a great thread and discussion. Thanks SweetBabyJ for submitting this lovely piece for critique and to Jackie for the perspective critique. It's great when this kind of learning takes place.

jackiesimmonds
06-17-2004, 05:03 PM
glad you enjoyed it Cindy, and got something out of it.

Jackie

SweetBabyJ
06-17-2004, 05:04 PM
How nice.


I matted it in a lovely cream, and left it uncropped. After further gazing, rightside up, upside down and in a mirror, I decided I liked it the way it was. I've some lovely silvered wood and will frame it in that- apparently, my Mother in Alamogordo has a buyer for it already.

Dark_Shades
06-17-2004, 05:17 PM
SBJ ..... ohhhh sounds gorgeous, please take a pic and let us see..... plllllleeeeazeee

Congrats on the Sale...... was a sure winner to start with .... love it

..... so glad you didnt crop it either

SweetBabyJ
06-17-2004, 05:22 PM
lol- soon as hubby gets the frame cut and put together- he'll be finicky about routing it, I'm sure.

As for beautiful- are you gonna paint, pant or just laze on holiday after all that work on Kayleigh?

Dark_Shades
06-17-2004, 06:39 PM
As for beautiful- are you gonna paint, pant or just laze on holiday after all that work on Kayleigh?

.. yup, all 3 ...... ha ha, the panting will probably come after the window shopping I have to do for you ;) :evil: hee hee

... got my new Ingres pad today ..... and a kneady eraser :) .... just got to find something to pop my pencils into ..... and all set.... well apart from packing a toothbrush and cozzie lolol .... I wouldnt be adventurous as Sandy and venturing out ...... just perhaps doodle some things from life from around the setting of the caravan :eek: ..... One BIG problem.... lolol.... its in a Pine Forest :crying: :D ha ha ha

..... tell hubbie to pull he's finger out :), as am expecting to see pics of this baby..... all matted and framed up time I come back .... cant tell you how much I love this pic SBJ.... its going to look simply stunning