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pampe
06-12-2004, 10:22 AM
A new project has been announced in the WetCanvas! project system!

Title: Conversations in Paint
Project Leader: pampe
Relative Difficulty: Irrelevant
Type Restrictions: Any Type
Medium: Watercolor paints
Subject: Not Applicable
Days open for signups: Always
Maximum participants allowed: Unlimited

Description:

A group discussion and project following Charles Dunn\'s book, CONVERSATIONS IN PAINT. (ISBN 1-56305-664-X, Workman Publishing)

Additional Information:

For more information on the project: Click here! (http://www.wetcanvas.com//Community/Projects/index.php?cmd=view_details&proj_id=705)

Remember, in order to help keep the discussions on projects organized, you should post your questions, suggestions, and comments on submitted work here in this thread. By doing this, we allow other non-project efforts to not get "pushed down" by a swarm of project-related threads.

maryrose
06-12-2004, 12:22 PM
Thanks for getting this going, Pam...looking forward to discussions :)

pampe
06-12-2004, 12:43 PM
While reading the INTRO and first section, I thought it might be good if we make our comments with the SECTION of the book in the TITLE line of the POSR...that way...it will be easier to comment on posts in the section you are reading

Does that make any sense?

See next post for example


ALSO.....if you do any exercises or paintings which are triggered by this book or discussion...please post them in this project

pampe
06-12-2004, 12:45 PM
I found the little section on page 9 referring to the soup can interesting and wondered if it might be good to get an object for myself to likewise study.

Any ideas on that?

I also found that the comment "there are better ways to learn than trial and error" PAINFUL...since so much of my learning in art has been that way :eek:

Cathie Jones
06-12-2004, 12:50 PM
I'm in, but haven't looked at the book in a few weeks. Later today I'll re-read the intro and get started.

Thanks, Pam.

SharonZC
06-12-2004, 01:38 PM
Thanks for starting this, Pam. Am anxious for my book to arrive from Amazon....hopefully next week! Really excited about getting into this.

Trail and error not good? Oh MY! :crying: Since I am self taught mostly....that is the only way I have learned anything! Guess I'll maybe have to UNlearn what I have learned so far by myself. Well.....I'm ready!

Sharon ZC

leverettfinn
06-12-2004, 01:55 PM
Hi all....Pam...you da bomb! (thanks for setting this up) :D

I like the idea of the soup can..or another "simple object" done over and over....might give that a try....

Trial and error(pg.10)....I HOPE he means it's a good thing we bought the book...because we will be more efficient in our learning :) ....I personally think we get to a point where enough thinking and just jump....after all we are painting because we want to...it's fun...I remember my very own mistakes better than mistakes I read about :)

The "Painting is a language" paragraph(pg8)....
But the "understanding" of the language an artist uses isn't necessarily universal...The viewers background and experience come into play....I think that's why artists statements are so interesting to read....AFTER I've view the work...I love to read what they were trying to convey...and see if it's the message I got....

I do think there are some universal human reactions to certain colors or shapes....but then I am not completely sure about that either.....For instance...red...passionate, strong, warm....one of my favorite colors...Does it mean something else in an Asian or African culture?...I don't know.

Just some of my musings and ramblings...

Lauren (hope I'm doing this right)

SharonZC
06-12-2004, 02:01 PM
Lauren, great questions!!!!!! This is going to be soooo interesting and fun and I can't wait. I hope Amazon is on the ball with my order.


Sharon ZC

dspinks
06-12-2004, 03:16 PM
OK, I'm in. Guess I'd better start reading. *Now, where did I put that thinking cap?*
Debra

laudesan
06-12-2004, 08:41 PM
Drumming fingers on desk. Hurry up Amazon.. :D this is going to be FUN !!!

Remy
06-13-2004, 10:52 AM
Thanks Pam.
I looked just now and saw this thread,..but OMG it's time for bed.
In the morning I will wake,...with my coffee this book I'll take.
The Intro & 1st Section I'll read,..and post my questions I will indeed.
So thank you Pam for starting this up,..to you m'dear I'll raise my cup.

:D

Gudrun
06-13-2004, 10:57 AM
I have no idea what that is about, but sounds interesting, ordered the book, which will need 10 days to Germany :( :(
I wait how you start and check in :) :)

leverettfinn
06-13-2004, 11:22 AM
Thanks Pam.
I looked just now and saw this thread,..but OMG it's time for bed.
In the morning I will wake,...with my coffee this book I'll take.
The Intro & 1st Section I'll read,..and post my questions I will indeed.
So thank you Pam for starting this up,..to you m'dear I'll raise my cup.

:D

:D Kristin...are you trying to get out of bringing chocolate??? :D

Wow that Kristin sure can rhyme....
look forward to her thoughts,
after her bedtime. :rolleyes:

Little Old Lady
06-13-2004, 04:09 PM
Found the book on my shelf so will have to join in. Hope it can get my creative juices flowing again.
JoAnn

Helen
06-13-2004, 05:33 PM
The book has been on my bookshelf for a couple of years. About time I got around to doing something with it. Thanks for starting this... I'm in.
Helen

Remy
06-13-2004, 09:01 PM
It's morning now,..I've had my sleep...
and through this book I did peep...
I'm glad this Intro was nice and short...
So here are my questions and what I thought. :rolleyes: :D

Painting is a Language
In the example given of 'an African mask, a child's drawing, a cubist portrait by Picasso,..we all understand depicts the human face'.. I agree those paintings 'could be read fluently by people everywhere without special training'but probably because we all have a face and we all look at many other faces every day and this object is a very familiar one to people everywhere. So I think Painting is a language,.but not necessary a language that is read fluently by people everywhere unless the subject is familiar,.or similar enough to the viewer for he/she to make a close association. For example,...a child in remote Africa might not know my painting of a kangaroo is a kangaroo,..though he will know it is an animal and 'understand' the painting. I doubt that he would 'understand' a painting of a candy store/lollie shop and probably associate the bright objects in jars as trading beads and painted berries. I think he would 'understand' this painting very differently than the intended meaning the artist wished to portray. As Lauren mentioned "the viewers background and experience comes into play".

Painting as a Macrocosm
He says,..'I've tried to create a macrocosm, a map that explains painting the same way a globe explains a planet'.This is a huge statement,..I hope he does this in the book somewhere in a way that I can understand it.

The can of soup
Maybe we could choose a similar object for us to practice with this way together. I'm thinking it could be an interesting exercise to try and paint the same object as we progress through the book to show different 'messages',.like emotions etc,...as he has done. I think I'd probably learn a lot.

Learning 'There are better, more efficient ways to learn than trial and error'.
I'm guessing he is suggesting that we arm ourselves with the fundamentals that are 'proven to work' by following certain 'rules' as he mentioned in Painting is governed by a set of fixed natural laws.Yup I think that's it,..but I think because paints/tools/techniques are ever evolving,..even after the 'fixed natural laws' have been followed there still remains a degree of trial and error and possible disasterous results that hopefully won't be repeated in the next painting. I agree trial and error is not the most efficient way to learn,..but I think it's an important smaller part of the learning process.

The time has come,..
to get off my bum...
and make my second coffee...
'cos my mind has gone numb... :D

Helen
06-14-2004, 11:03 AM
While reading the INTRO and first section, I thought it might be good if we make our comments with the SECTION of the book in the TITLE line of the POSR...that way...it will be easier to comment on posts in the section you are reading

Does that make any sense?

See next post for example


ALSO.....if you do any exercises or paintings which are triggered by this book or discussion...please post them in this project

I'm trying this to see if I understand what you mean about posting. And then I assume we are going to read and discuss what we've read; then post any images and our thoughts. Haven't read anything yet but plan to this afternoon. I did glance at the soup can idea and I like it.
Helen

SharonZC
06-14-2004, 06:22 PM
HOORAY!!!! :clap: :clap: My book arrived in the mail today and I had to spend the day at the hospital with my mother-in-law. I tried not to be impatient....with the patient......but I wanted to run home so I could read, read, read. Since I couldn't run out on her, I plan to read, read, read tonight!
:)


Sharon ZC


"Conform....go crazy
or become and Artist"

pampe
06-15-2004, 11:14 AM
Hi all....Pam...you da bomb! (thanks for setting this up) :D

I like the idea of the soup can..or another "simple object" done over and over....might give that a try....

Trial and error(pg.10)....I HOPE he means it's a good thing we bought the book...because we will be more efficient in our learning :) ....I personally think we get to a point where enough thinking and just jump....after all we are painting because we want to...it's fun...I remember my very own mistakes better than mistakes I read about :)

The "Painting is a language" paragraph(pg8)....
But the "understanding" of the language an artist uses isn't necessarily universal...The viewers background and experience come into play....I think that's why artists statements are so interesting to read....AFTER I've view the work...I love to read what they were trying to convey...and see if it's the message I got....

I do think there are some universal human reactions to certain colors or shapes....but then I am not completely sure about that either.....For instance...red...passionate, strong, warm....one of my favorite colors...Does it mean something else in an Asian or African culture?...I don't know.

Just some of my musings and ramblings...

Lauren (hope I'm doing this right)

Let's talk about an object we could carry through......would have to be something EVERYTONE (worldwide) could use.

I have trouble with mistakes and tend to repeat repeat them

That's an interesting point...I read the statement or explanation AFTER I look at work also....

Cultural differences must apply and I think you cannot REALLY grasp the other cultures nuances...you can try.....but it is not the same as bein immersed....


It's morning now,..I've had my sleep...
and through this book I did peep...
I'm glad this Intro was nice and short...
So here are my questions and what I thought. :rolleyes: :D

Painting is a Language
In the example given of 'an African mask, a child's drawing, a cubist portrait by Picasso,..we all understand depicts the human face'.. I agree those paintings 'could be read fluently by people everywhere without special training'but probably because we all have a face and we all look at many other faces every day and this object is a very familiar one to people everywhere. So I think Painting is a language,.but not necessary a language that is read fluently by people everywhere unless the subject is familiar,.or similar enough to the viewer for he/she to make a close association. For example,...a child in remote Africa might not know my painting of a kangaroo is a kangaroo,..though he will know it is an animal and 'understand' the painting. I doubt that he would 'understand' a painting of a candy store/lollie shop and probably associate the bright objects in jars as trading beads and painted berries. I think he would 'understand' this painting very differently than the intended meaning the artist wished to portray. As Lauren mentioned "the viewers background and experience comes into play".

Painting as a Macrocosm
He says,..'I've tried to create a macrocosm, a map that explains painting the same way a globe explains a planet'.This is a huge statement,..I hope he does this in the book somewhere in a way that I can understand it.

The can of soup
Maybe we could choose a similar object for us to practice with this way together. I'm thinking it could be an interesting exercise to try and paint the same object as we progress through the book to show different 'messages',.like emotions etc,...as he has done. I think I'd probably learn a lot.

Learning 'There are better, more efficient ways to learn than trial and error'.
I'm guessing he is suggesting that we arm ourselves with the fundamentals that are 'proven to work' by following certain 'rules' as he mentioned in Painting is governed by a set of fixed natural laws.Yup I think that's it,..but I think because paints/tools/techniques are ever evolving,..even after the 'fixed natural laws' have been followed there still remains a degree of trial and error and possible disasterous results that hopefully won't be repeated in the next painting. I agree trial and error is not the most efficient way to learn,..but I think it's an important smaller part of the learning process.

The time has come,..
to get off my bum...
and make my second coffee...
'cos my mind has gone numb... :D


I live your POETIC way wiff words :)


I think the painting as language topic is more than we usually think.....he uses the example of traffic cop...but I dare say that that motion in sub-Sahara africa might not mean the same thing......

The rules thing....I remember a good teacher who said you have to KNOW the rules to BREAK them.....I have found that is true over the years.,....and I think that would alleviate a great deal of the trial and error for me.

I always wish I had gotten a BASIC art training because then I would not have had to struggle through so many errors......so learning the RULES seems really valid to me..then you can choose to use them or not

pampe
06-15-2004, 11:15 AM
Found the book on my shelf so will have to join in. Hope it can get my creative juices flowing again.
JoAnn



:clap: so glad you will join us!!

pampe
06-15-2004, 11:16 AM
The book has been on my bookshelf for a couple of years. About time I got around to doing something with it. Thanks for starting this... I'm in.
Helen

Helen...great...please take your time....after all it's been around for years! ;)

As far as posting...when you have a comment, jut trype the Chapter title in the "Title" space above the post so folks know what the post is referring to.....that way....if I only read a certain chapter I could skip other posts until I get there....


SHARON...welcome aboard!!!!

artmom
06-15-2004, 11:49 AM
Pam, I'm in -- for the discussion part at least. I don't know if I'll post any painting I do that emanates from the reading of the book. I've read through half of it already, as I have had it several months.

However, I will re-read and hope to take part in the discussion.

Thanks for taking the time to lead us in this "conversation." :)

Lyn (who very seldom joins projects!)

SharonZC
06-15-2004, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the welcome, Pam.

Like you, I've not had any formal art lessons...in fact no informal ones either and I think Mr. Dunn's comment about trial and error affected me by touching that part of me that feels I can't be a "real" artist without that training. And I suppose that feeling comes up from the fact that I have just dabbled in art until recently and now have decided to get serious. My experience has been almost ALL trial and error and lots of reading. Also, I don't want to become so focused on rules that I lose spontaneity (lol....not sure that is spelled right). I would love to take formal art lessons but unfortunately I live in a very rural area...many miles from the nearest large city.

As for the soup can idea....if McDonalds Golden Arches are found in all corners of the globe....then surely Campbells soup can be, also?

This is just a bit of personal observation about the Intro part ...I can see it is going to be a truly inspirational and informative book.

Shoot...was going to bring a pot of tea with me....but I do have some apple slices if anyone wants to share?

Looking forward to reading everyone's posts....!!!!!


Sharon ZC


"Conform...go crazy
or become an Artist"

dspinks
06-18-2004, 11:51 AM
I think that if you are reading and watching videos, and attending what short courses and workshops that you can, and then doing exercises based on that reading and watching and attending, then it is not really "trial and error."

I've only taken a quick glance at the "Learning" chapter near the end of the book, but it seems Dunn is referring more to how we process the information that is presented to us, in whatever form, rather than the source of the information. I think it's more to do with understanding where you are in the learning process, and acknowledging that what information you can't "learn" today can be revisited and successfully learned at a later stage.

Debra

pampe
06-20-2004, 03:00 PM
Just returned from Canada painting trip where I had a small chance to read....have some ideas and opinions on the beginning section.....

BBL :)

pmac
06-21-2004, 06:54 PM
Hello everyone,
I have been lurking around Wet Canvas for awhile and I saw that you would be discussing this book. Since I missed out on the "Artists Way" book discussion, I ordered this book right away so I could get involved in this discussion. It came in today. I liked the soup can idea too, but have a different idea about how to do it. The author says pick something, do something to it, and then do something different to it. What do you think about the idea of each picking something different to paint, something we feel we would like to paint anyway, and then we could all "do" the same thing to what we want to paint. What I got out of what he said was that it is not so important what you choose, but that you are willing to experiment and try new things in order to learn. So we as a group could suggest ways to paint our object, and then choose one a week or something. We could explore our own subject matter by painting it abstractly, monochromaticly, with complementary colors, as an illustration, or from different perspectives, etc. Any comments on this idea?

pampe
06-22-2004, 11:31 AM
WELCOME!!!

I agree about the idea...and when I thought about the :soup can " idea...it was not to all do the same object.

Let's see what others think :)

Helen
06-22-2004, 05:28 PM
I think it's a good idea... have to think about what object I want to live with for awhile.
Helen

Remy
06-22-2004, 05:40 PM
Yes Helen,..that's the hardest thing,..trying to come up with something you can paint over and over without becoming too tired of the sight of it. I don't think a can of soup is inspiring for me. And,..well funny enough after reading your post I thought of something that is fairly universaly recognised and I think could be relatively 'open to' taking the creative changes nicely. I thought I would use my Mobile Phone (or Cell Phone for those over the pond) as my object. Anyone else feel like using your mobile phone/cell phone?

Btw,..I have never painted the same thing more than once,..I absolutely hate the idea of it as I get bored easily,lol and admired those who could stick to a subject and paint it over and over getting better with it each time. This exercise will hopefully changed my mind about doing the same subject more than once.

artmom
06-23-2004, 09:28 AM
I'm with Remy! I've never been able to stand re-painting things. I've tried it with one or two subjects, and each painting, IMO, got worse!

I like the idea of each of us picking what we want to paint. :)

Lyn

pampe
06-23-2004, 10:14 AM
IN all my life, I have NEVER re-painted...LOL

SO this will be a lesson in perserverance for me.....*thinking of an object* Cell phone is BORING :rolleyes:

leverettfinn
06-23-2004, 03:44 PM
Ok...I like the idea, having never repainted an object either ....I'm going to paint a small red chair that I found at an import store....Should keep me somewhat happy :)
Lauren

laudesan
06-24-2004, 04:46 AM
My book arrived while I was in hospital.. :clap:

So what is happening???

Where do we start????

vasilkadifeli
06-24-2004, 05:18 AM
Judy, I am also watching this thread closely ;).. and trying to see what happens next :D... BTW I am trying to understand what the book is all about... is it a technical book ? or it is something about the "perspective" of an artist as a painter ?

Dunn, a marketing consultant, took his first art class at the age of 35. Thus, this volume, in the form of a "notebook," is written by and for the amateur painter with the attitude that all one needs to paint is desire. However, one of his major tenets?that talent is a myth?is a fallacy. Dunn covers the basic principles of design, contrast, theme, and perspective, but the design of the book itself muddies his intent. Structured more like an M.B.A.'s organizational chart, without chapter numbers as guides, the book is frustrating to work with. There is no lack of alternatives on the subject, such as Rex Brandt's Seeing with a Painter's Eye (Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1984).

A full range of information and inspiration, September 14, 2002
Reviewer: Stephen Gracey (see more about me) from Cleveland, OH United States
Far from the first book on painting I've bought, "Conversations" is the one I keep reading. It is jammed with ideas, principles, and practical hints, punctuated with tons of visual explanations and demonstrations. Some bits are immediately applicable; some will take years to comprehend through my own practice, but that's ok because they're "chunked" into small pieces that aren't overwhelming. I wish I could find more information on where Mr. Dunn is, so that I might meet him, but alas, he's a mystery man... He's laid all the principles out in the kind of logic I need to build a coherent picture of the art, and it's organized with profoundly comforting statements like, "Painting adheres to universal principles; follow the principles, and you'll get good art..."

pampe
06-24-2004, 01:03 PM
Vasil...thanks for the book reviews....it is sub-titles "A notebook of fundamentals" and I think that is what it really is.


so....without further adieu...

I like the quote..."the artist sees his subject as he thinks it should be seen and paints it as he wants it to look" on page 14

I have always tried to figure this out. I do not "see" things that way...but have to struggle to make them work.....I see light a lot more than I used to....that helps PICK a subject for me.

SO I need to go and paint my object the first time.....may just be a mug for coffee or something else simple...I am beginning to get excited at the possibilty of making it "NEW" each time.

I would like to discuss the 7 ways of seeing when you all get there and are ready...

jaytee
06-28-2004, 05:02 AM
OK OK I give in.................all those mentions of AMAZON were too much for me :D And a BOOK/READING based project.......... . how could I have resisted for so long.............................. :rolleyes: :evil:

Off to Amazon.............. dont expect to see me for a few days ;)

laudesan
06-28-2004, 06:47 AM
Now that I can actually focus properly again.. **sigh** I shall start reading..

I shall then decide what will be my subject, I do have a can of Cambell's Chunky Soup in the cupboard, but can't for the life of me see how i can paint it 7 different ways. Or did I get that wrong??

I am excited about this project.. ;) :D

jaytee
06-28-2004, 07:49 AM
Just Ordered the book.............. will take around 14 days.............. should have finished Robin by then:D

laudesan
06-28-2004, 07:53 AM
Just Ordered the book.............. will take around 14 days.............. should have finished Robin by then:D

I got mine from Amazon, and they said 14 days to Aussie. Only took 8 .. :D

pampe
06-28-2004, 10:11 AM
glad to see you, Janet :clap:

Daisygirl
06-28-2004, 10:25 AM
Hello,
I am only 2 years old ( as an artist) and have been treasuring all the wonderful posts on the watercolor forum for about 2 months. I love internet "retreats" like this and have led one in the past for Artist Way. I am looking forward to getting started here.. my book came Friday and I am ready to start. I am considering a soup can but actually hope something else will catch my eye... but wondering if the soup can actually has more to offer that I am thinking :o

Sue

pampe
06-28-2004, 06:39 PM
WELCOME!!!!, Sue :)

Ruth Grinstead
06-30-2004, 09:23 AM
Hi Guys

I have signed up and got the book from Amazon, but I haven't got going with the reading yet.

I am hoping this will help me keep one foot in the watercolour camp, as the pastels are gorgeous and I can feel myself slipping.

Ruth

pampe
06-30-2004, 09:44 AM
well, I know that feeling well...you should see my collection of colored sticks!

But I am hoping the book will help with everything, actually

WELCOME aboard!!

Daisygirl
06-30-2004, 11:06 AM
Hello,
Okay, I have the book and have read through page 15 then skipped around to try to get a grasp of what and when I am suppose to start painting. So, am I suppose to start the soup can and re-do it everytime is starts up? Or is there going to be some point where is tells me to get started? Or am I suppose to be waiting for every to get their books and progress together?

I have decided to use the soup can even though it isn't to interesting to me.
From what I have read so far I think up until now I have been "playing" at being an artist and to become a mature artist I am going to need to learn some things that up until now didn't seem interesting... and on the outside may look a little boring. I guess I am to the point that I want maturity enough to do the work.
Sue

pampe
06-30-2004, 01:21 PM
Sounds like good goals, Sue

WELCOME!!

This project is hopefully loose enough for eveyone to do "their own thing" so that we can each learn what we need.

I saw the "soup can" as an individual exercise on which to try new concepts....like when he discusses color or value.

You may use whatever means you like to get what you need. And by all means, progress at your own speed....just be sure to list WHAT part of the book you are discussing in the "TITLE" line above your post (where I have typed "GENERAL"


I have gotten a little further than page 15 but hesitate to discuss it too much till others are all discussing....so whenever you are ready.........


GO FOR IT

That way we can all follow along

artmom
06-30-2004, 03:21 PM
No, I haven't read the whole book, but when faced with a book like this that has many chapters, sections, etc. I peruse the whole thing swiftly, then begin reading.

I found reading the Chapter on Learning extremely helpful to "see" where Dunn was coming from. As he said, on page 194, "When you don't know how to learn, the task is harder than it should be and takes longer than it needs to, no matter what you're learning."

To someone who has not been in a "learning mode" recently, I recommend refreshing your learning perception by at least skimming this chapter before commencing on going through the book from the beginning.

Just a suggestion, worth every penny you paid for it! :D

Lyn

pampe
06-30-2004, 04:35 PM
thanks for the tip, Lyn....

h20color
07-01-2004, 12:47 AM
Sounds like an interesting project and looks as if you all have not gone too far to date so do you still have room for more artists trying to understand what the heck they are trying to accomplish?

Maybe a new focus would give me new direction! I'm in but running behind (again).

h20

jaytee
07-01-2004, 06:56 AM
h2o. I wont even get my book until around 14-16 July ........ and Pam said a few posts back that this one could be pretty timeless as well all progress at different rates............... mine at quickstep speed. you know..

SLOW............. Slooooow........... quick... quick................Sloooooooow

the reading will be the quick bit ...... the painting slow :evil:

Cathie Jones
07-01-2004, 02:19 PM
I did the same as Lyn and started with the last chapter. Not because I wanted to see where he's coming from, although it did help with that - - but because it's been such a long time since I've learned anything this way, I wanted a "how to."

Guess I'll get started this weekend. Only 3 or 4 postcards left to do, maybe one of them will be a soup can!! Also the newspaper is out for the month, so I have a free weekend.

As for the object, I'm attracted to the soup can because I can see and use his examples, at least at the beginning - and I'm a very visual learner.

pmac
07-01-2004, 07:18 PM
I skipped to the chapter on learning because many people started there. That's one of the things I like most about this book. you can go anywhere in this book and start reading. You can easily go to a place in the book where someone else is reading, and read a page or two and be able to respond to the idea they are talking about. So no matter what someone is discussing we can easily all be on the "Same Page".

Some of the ideas in the Learning Chapter that stood out for me were:

pg.196 You cannot teach a man anything. You can only help him find it within himself.-Galileo I am an Art Teacher and need to keep this concept in mind.

pg. 200 Making mistakes and ocassionally appearing foolish is the price you pay for learning and improving.-Adam Robinson I need a poster size copy of this for my classroom. Middle school kids would rather die than look foolish.

pg. 200 Visualization can be practice. You can use it to improve your painting skills while standing in line at the bank or the supermarket. Studies show that you will improve if your only practice is visualization.

I would like to hear how the artists involved in this discussion group use visualization to help them in their artwork.

I'll start.....I saw a thread in the watercolor forum entitled Abstract Watercolor With a Twist. I tend to work in a very controled and realistic manner, so I thought this would be fun and different. In her technique you get colors and textures on the paper and then let the picture suggest images. I had to put my "painting" of colors and textures up where I could see it so I could visualize what would emerge to become the painting. I started to see fish. I painted the first few fish and then was stumped again. The last few days I have been chastizing myself for not getting back to painting this, but I haven't had a good visual picture of what to paint, so I started to collect more reference materials and have been looking a lot. I may be ready to move on soon. I was happy to read in the book that visualization is a big part of the process, because I felt like I wasn't doing anything or making any progress. How does visualization play a part in your art making process?

Pmac

laudesan
07-01-2004, 07:46 PM
pmac says..................................pg. 200 Visualization can be practice. You can use it to improve your painting skills while standing in line at the bank or the supermarket. Studies show that you will improve if your only practice is visualization.

But visulisation is the key ... right??

Must say I do it all the time, have ALWAYS done it, visualise.

I pick the colours in my head too, I will be along "looking" and Alan will say "you are talking to yourself" ;) If I drift off into a daze he knows I am "putting paint on paper"..:D

pmac
07-01-2004, 08:13 PM
I think we all do some visualization, I'm interested in how people do it and how they may be doing it differently than I do. What kind of visualization process do you use? What are you trying to visualize? A final product, color schemes, composition, light and dark areas, details? What do you think about first, and how does the process evolve? Do you stare at the picture, or just think about it while doing something else?
Pmac

laudesan
07-01-2004, 08:27 PM
It used to be colour that I thought about first, now it is shadows.. Still colour, as in what colours are in those shadows, I will really get up close and personal when looking at and studying shadows.. :D

leverettfinn
07-01-2004, 08:52 PM
pg. 200 Making mistakes and ocassionally appearing foolish is the price you pay for learning and improving.-Adam Robinson I need a poster size copy of this for my classroom. Middle school kids would rather die than look foolish.


I would like to hear how the artists involved in this discussion group use visualization to help them in their artwork.


Pmac

Pmac....I loved that making mistakes and appearing foolish quote too....Middle school kids aren't alone here :D

Visualization....hmmmm....I know I paint landscape pieces and shapes in my mind when I come across something that appeals to me....I'll "virtually" paint specific brushstrokes in my head....It's about the shape and color and brush stroke...and how I would execute it if I had paint and paper available...

As far as what you describe....visualize what to do in a painting that's incomplete...I usually know the "why" of a painting...what attracted me to the subject in the first place...and I try to keep that front and center in my mind when making my choices during the painting....in an experimental one...like your fish....I just don't think much at all :p ...and intuitively go for it....these really don't turn out too well very often....but it's such fun, I do it anyway....and I learn some interesting things....and I can use these for collage material :D

Lauren

artmom
07-02-2004, 03:02 AM
P-mac, I have always instinctively used visualization in art and in writing. I have one of those memories that allows me to remember where on a page I saw something, and, at times, is actually quite photographic!

When I first began painting almost 30 years ago :eek: , I worked in oils and on very large canvases usually. By the time I put brush to canvas, I would have pretty much completely visualized the whole painting, and even when working from my imagination, would paint a 24 x 30 inch or 18 x 36 inch or larger canvas wet-in-wet in one session of 8 to 10 hours, standing the whole time.

When I began working full-time 19 years ago, I stopped painting, because I no longer could do those marathon sessions. I took up watercolors in January 2003, as I now must sit to paint and thought this medium would satisfy that need. I find that I have long "creative pauses" during which I don't pick up a brush, but then when I do, I have four or five paintings that practically paint themselves because I have already visualized them.

I think about the subject while doing other things. Trying to break it down, I believe that I see the complete painting first, then begin to break it down to color, shadows, positive and negative shapes, etc. Then, when I am actually painting, I visualize a particular stroke before putting it on paper, if it is something I haven't tried before.

Lyn

pmac
07-02-2004, 07:48 AM
I rarely have the final painting completely visualized in my mind wheen I start, and if I thought I did it never comes out the way I thought it would. I don't mean that it didn't come out the way I wanted, just the the painting seems to evolve as I paint it. The thing that does not usually change is the composition. I never just paint from memory or my imagination, I wish I could. Pmac

leverettfinn
07-02-2004, 08:05 AM
I rarely have the completed final image in my head...(unless it's a commission...and I try to have it all planned out and approved before I begin)....I have a good idea of the composition and as I said before ...the "why" of it....It's almost like a fuzzy thought or image...that becomes clearer as I progress in the painting....

Lauren

dspinks
07-02-2004, 02:01 PM
Until recently, I also had a very difficult time visualizing a painting in my head unless I was starting with a reference that I would be following closely. I think it had a lot to do with feeling confident in my own interpretation of what I see. When I had less faith in my abilities, my mind would "snow over" when I tried to bring a specific image to mind.

One exercise that's been helping me overcome this is to take more time to doodle in my pencil sketchbook. If amongst the mess something interesting starts to emerge, I extract that element to a new page and continue on. At that point, I start to carry the image in my head and embellish on it mentally as I go about my daily life. I can then go back to the sketchbook and refine the ideas I've been mulling over all day.

Debra

pampe
07-02-2004, 02:13 PM
I skipped to the chapter on learning because many people started there. That's one of the things I like most about this book. you can go anywhere in this book and start reading. You can easily go to a place in the book where someone else is reading, and read a page or two and be able to respond to the idea they are talking about. So no matter what someone is discussing we can easily all be on the "Same Page".

Some of the ideas in the Learning Chapter that stood out for me were:

pg.196 You cannot teach a man anything. You can only help him find it within himself.-Galileo I am an Art Teacher and need to keep this concept in mind.

pg. 200 Making mistakes and ocassionally appearing foolish is the price you pay for learning and improving.-Adam Robinson I need a poster size copy of this for my classroom. Middle school kids would rather die than look foolish.

pg. 200 Visualization can be practice. You can use it to improve your painting skills while standing in line at the bank or the supermarket. Studies show that you will improve if your only practice is visualization.

I would like to hear how the artists involved in this discussion group use visualization to help them in their artwork.

I'll start.....I saw a thread in the watercolor forum entitled Abstract Watercolor With a Twist. I tend to work in a very controled and realistic manner, so I thought this would be fun and different. In her technique you get colors and textures on the paper and then let the picture suggest images. I had to put my "painting" of colors and textures up where I could see it so I could visualize what would emerge to become the painting. I started to see fish. I painted the first few fish and then was stumped again. The last few days I have been chastizing myself for not getting back to painting this, but I haven't had a good visual picture of what to paint, so I started to collect more reference materials and have been looking a lot. I may be ready to move on soon. I was happy to read in the book that visualization is a big part of the process, because I felt like I wasn't doing anything or making any progress. How does visualization play a part in your art making process?

Pmac


OK...going to read this chapter this weekend so I can join the discussion.

artmom
07-02-2004, 03:25 PM
Pam, happy to know you are going to read the Learning chapter! I'm particularly interested to find out if you use visualization and how you use it when painting your wonderful abstracts! :)

Lyn

pampe
07-02-2004, 03:45 PM
You know, Lyn, in my other life, I used creative visualization as a therapeutic tool. I taught it and practiced it myself. I use visualization in my daily meditation at times...but I have never consdered it in relation to my painting....so, LOL, I really appreciate pmac bringing it up.

Maybe I use it more than I think....LOL :confused:

As far as the abstracts go, they are done totally intuitively....

jaytee
07-02-2004, 05:02 PM
Ok so Ive not got the book yet...... but learning and visualisation as a topic Im very familiar with............did a research degree into adult learning among other things !

When teaching folk to 'Write for Radio' or later on, after leaving the BBC, to 'Speak in Public' I used to bash on and on and on about creating images in the listeners mind.............and I used lots of 'visuals in my teachin, mind maos etc........

but my big secret........... and its a big BUT..........I cannot see 'pictures' in my 'minds eye' in the way other folk seem to......... 'images' yes but pictures no....... so visualisation as usually suggested is absolutely hopeless for me...........

Its very hard to discrobe the difference............ It seems to me that whereas most people seem to see pictures on a sort of screen towards the front of their head..........and they can scan that screen......... get into the picture, draw back from the picture, go behind the picture ......... I have snsations that are visual (but not actually pictures) somewhere in the back of my head..............

So it is impossible for me to 'visualise ' a finished picture in my head......... I just have a sensation fo what Im trying to acomplish !!!

( It also made therapy, hypnosis and learning based on visualisation a no go !!! Very difficult for others to undersatand . Ive only met a coupe of others that have the same problem ...............

do any of you............. ???

Funnily enough I have no problem rotating 3D 'images ' in my head or imagining gardens when I design them....... but not as 'pictures' !!!! I can also match colour from home to shop almost perfectly carrying them in my head ......... but not seeing them ......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

dspinks
07-02-2004, 06:18 PM
( It also made therapy, hypnosis and learning based on visualisation a no go !!! Very difficult for others to undersatand . Ive only met a coupe of others that have the same problem ...............

do any of you............. ???

Yes, yes, exactly! When I try to recreate a picture in my head, it keeps skittering around and I feel I am always only seeing it in my peripheral vision. I have a hard time recalling my dreams also, the harder I try to remember the visual of them, the faster they disappear.

I wonder, though, if that is why I can sustain long drawing and painting sessions - it is as if I am laying it down as I think it, before it "gets away."

Debra

pampe
07-03-2004, 12:06 AM
there are visual people and auditory people and kinesthetic people...I am the latter

never could "see" things...but can always "feel" them

Daisygirl
07-03-2004, 01:21 AM
When I visual something I see the whole thing at once... the finshed product,the "big picture" and the possibilities and "knowing" of everything it takes to get there... It comes to me in one quick flash.. That's the easy part. Then I have to break it down into the details and the process...I am not good at detail but know that mastering the detail is the only way to get what I see in my head into something concrete. This book seems as if it will to be a good source to help me develop some detail skills in painting. I am trying to understand the Rule of 5 or chunking??? ( page 195) Can someone give me a practical application as to how this works?
Thanks
Sue

laudesan
07-03-2004, 01:59 AM
Has anyone started painting their 7 variations of the same object yet???

I am still trying to decide what to paint..

I don't want to paint the soup can, 'cause then I just have to put it in the practice file.. I like to think everything I paint is saleable to someone somewhere..:D

jaytee
07-03-2004, 09:43 AM
there are visual people and auditory people and kinesthetic people...I am the latter

never could "see" things...but can always "feel" them

So how do YOU do visulisation Pam??

I seem to remember I test auditory........... makes sense for a blind as a bat ex-broadcaster...............:D

So why dont I remember names and numbers but DO remember faces :confused:

Jj wont get started on my 7 till I get the book.......Amazion has to get it from the sataes and then send it to me.......... free delivery takes a few days longer !!! And I always buy enough to get free delivery :evil: But I just cant see it being a soup can !!!! What sort of object are we supposed to chose? Without breaking copyright !!!!

Helen
07-03-2004, 10:26 AM
I'm jumping in mid discussion... I realize some haven't got the book so I guess it really doesn't matter where we are... my visualization is the jumping around type... no total picture on a screen in front of me... but I'm more visual than audio or tactil. Is it possible to be a combination of all there?

A thought on the book... I think the chapter on learning should have been chapter one instead of the last one. I need that one most (lol). Haven't picked my object yet; thought about an oar that is in my garage but decided it's too cumbersome to move around. This morning as I sat on my patio I thought my tin man would be worth considering but he hangs -- moving his is a problem and his location isn't one that I can get into to look at different angles soooo I'm still looking.
Helen

Little Old Lady
07-03-2004, 10:37 AM
Read the learning section last night. Have to go over it again.
It ded get me thinking that sometime we have to unlearn automatic responses to free up our creativiity.
I was without water for a week. Automatically when I wanted a drink I would turn on the faucet or when finishing using the toilet hit the flush lever. Logically I knew there was no water but doing these things was so automatic that I did them anyway.
Not sure if this makes sense but I think we have many automatic responses that block us.
JoAnn

leverettfinn
07-03-2004, 10:51 AM
Read the learning section last night. Have to go over it again.
It ded get me thinking that sometime we have to unlearn automatic responses to free up our creativiity.
I was without water for a week. Automatically when I wanted a drink I would turn on the faucet or when finishing using the toilet hit the flush lever. Logically I knew there was no water but doing these things was so automatic that I did them anyway.
Not sure if this makes sense but I think we have many automatic responses that block us.
JoAnn

Great analogy JoAnn....trying to be "mindful" of each decision when painting....nothing new comes out of repeated "thoughtless" patterns or executions.....but geesh...doesn't that sound exhausting!?.....but worthwhile....

Lauren

pampe
07-03-2004, 11:41 AM
Graet discussion


Beacause I am comfortable with Eastern thought....JoAnne and Lauren's posts remind me of Suziki-Roshi's book and statement about "beginner's mind"

I think when I am painting, I have to be in a "groove" of beginners mind NOT to fall into habitual thought


(do that for golf when it is "working" also)

dspinks
07-03-2004, 03:05 PM
I agree - that's why I like taking beginning level courses over again for complex subjects such as watercolor and photography. What I already know does help, but I try to go in with a fresh open mind to glean what I couldn't grasp the first time around.

Debra

Little Old Lady
07-03-2004, 08:32 PM
Was talking to my daughter aobut the unlearning thing and she works for BF who has a kite shop and said the guy who teaches kite boarding said the hardest person to teach is someone who has "learned the wrong way". It is hard to remove ingrained bad habits.
JoAnn

laudesan
07-03-2004, 08:37 PM
Oh JoAnn that is SO TRUE !!!!!!!!!!!! In animals too ;) **sigh**

h20color
07-04-2004, 12:40 PM
h2o. I wont even get my book until around 14-16 July ........ and Pam said a few posts back that this one could be pretty timeless as well all progress at different rates............... mine at quickstep speed. you know..

SLOW............. Slooooow........... quick... quick................Sloooooooow

the reading will be the quick bit ...... the painting slow :evil:

Jay tee--I know what you mean and thanks for the info. My steps are more like sloooooooooooooooooooooooooow and not too slowwwwwwwww.

h20

artmom
07-04-2004, 08:01 PM
Regarding the Rule of Five

Perhaps this will help, Sue.

Say you want to remember how to paint a tree:

Tree
Trunk
Branches
Leaves
Light side of tree
Dark side of tree

or a cat
Eyes
Nose
Whiskers
Fur
Shadow

By breaking down the subject into 5 "chunks," you can remember it better than if you broke it down into 10 "chunks." Short term memory and long term memory also come into play. These mnemonic (memory) devices are a great help in remembering grocery lists, answers for exams, etc.

Check this site out if you want to learn a little about your personal learning style:
http://learningstyles.org
DH is the Dr. Cherry mentioned on the site. If you take the measurement test and save your numbers, send me a PM and I'll give you Ed's e-mail address and he will be happy to personally look at your scores and give you insight into what they mean. There is no charge for this information, and it is kept strictly confidential. It is amazing how often people have found out that they learn better in a different way than they had always thought.

Isn't learning fun!!! :D

Lyn

BTW, if would really help if everyone followed Pam's request to replace the Title section with what your post is regarding, instead of just everyone having the heading of Project Discussion! :cool: That way, we immediately know where to turn to in our book without reading the whole post. Saves time.

jaytee
07-05-2004, 06:42 AM
Lyn.......... well, well.............fancy your DH being into Learning !!! I did my research M Phil on Adult Experiential Learning and lots in that on Learning Styles....... was going on to continue research with D Phil........as I thought I might well prove the learning circle the wrong way round for many folk...................but got seduced by garden design instead :D Long Story!
I guess my research available somewhere !!!! Other than moulderinging on my shelf !!!

BUt understanding different ways of learning critical.......especially when I was lecturing others......... Im an 'Activist' on the test published my research Mentor. ......... DrAlan Mumford........but go round the learning cirlce backwards !!!!!!!!

Pam............. I long ago concluded most eastern learning/education was right brain while westerners admired and promoted left brain approach .........so not suprised by your comment..............

ACnt wait to get this book. will check on Lyns link after shredding !!!

artmom
07-05-2004, 08:58 AM
Yes, Jaytee, Ed is really into learning big time. In fact, this month the Learning Styles Institute has their semi-annual meeting at Ball State University in Muncie, Indiana. Their February meeting is usually held in Tampa, Florida.

When he did his research for his doctoral dissertation, I assisted him with running the measurement research, as did our sons, and his mother made the blindfolds for the olfactory, and haptic measurements. The whole family helped.

It was very interesting to see how people went in apprehensively, thinking of it as a test, even though it is a measurement. There are no wrong answers! :)

Lyn

Cathie Jones
07-05-2004, 07:27 PM
Guess I need to take that test. I feel images the way Jaytee does, they're in the back of my head and not very clear, just ideas flitting around. I have an awful time with composition, because I can't visualize how something will look when it's actually on paper, or how colors will look together.

Soon as I settle down, I'll get to that survey. Today I couldn't even sit still long enough to read the introduction . . . got the going-back-to-work-tomorrow jitters. I need some of Pam's serenity. :rolleyes:

Anyway, at this point I'm pretty sure my learning style is not going to be by reading - because I have trouble concentrating and don't retain what I've read. Maybe that's why this book appealed to me.

pampe
07-05-2004, 09:34 PM
REPEAT REPEAT after me:

I am calm and serene

Nothing can happen that I am not prepared for

I am calm and serene

laudesan
07-06-2004, 02:45 AM
Take what test???????????? :confused: :rolleyes:

jaytee
07-06-2004, 05:10 AM
Take what test???????????? :confused: :rolleyes:

See Artmoms penultimate post !!!:D
Check this site out if you want to learn a little about your personal learning style:
http://learningstyles.org

artmom
07-06-2004, 10:24 AM
Thelma and Louise (Lyn and Erin (vestalqueen) are off to Toronto, Canada tomorrow for their big adventure and to meet up with some Canadian WCers! (and Lauren, too!) on Saturday.

Don't know if we'll have access to a PC at the hotel, so I won't be around probably. I'll pick up the project when I get back! :D

Lyn

jaytee
07-07-2004, 07:08 PM
WOOT!!

as Ive learnt to say since joining WC!........... just had an email from Amazon saying my copies been despatched !!!! With luck it will arrive before the weekend and I can catch up :):)

pampe
07-08-2004, 10:52 AM
WOOT, Janet...glad to hear that

Lyn...have a great trip!!

Back to the subject:

"Aperceptive Mass" I find this concept WONDERFUL for everything we do!! Realising that your aperceptive mass has to reach a "critical point" takes BLAME out of things.....if we could only realize that , think of all the frustration we could skip!! (page 194)

"Learning Curve" My personal learning curve has ALWAYS had HUGE plateaus which I used to find depressing. The idea of turning your attention elsewhere sounds like someone here saying , "go to a gallery" or "read a book" when you are in a slump.... It helps a lot just to KNOW that the plateaus are NORMAL (page 198)

Page 199 (bottom) SKILL COMPONENTS: I find the idea that one should choose a REASONABLE level of difficulty interesting since I always choose something REALLY difficult as a challenge. End instead of means stuff, this ;)

Page 200 THE MEANS TO END MUTATION I find that I have reached this place in my watercolors....so of course I have had to add other mediiums as challenge. "the activity becomes its own purpose" is a wonderful thing, isn't it? I am not there in golf, but because of prior learning , I KNOW that that can happen so I continue to use the DISCIPLINE of PRACTICE. The idea that the product becomes it's own purpose makes art zen-like for me...and that leads to thoses moments of bliss when time does not exist and you and the paintbrush become one.....NICE!!!!

I appreciate that he speaks about "TENSION" (stress) Being "in the zone" because we have often talked about that here. And for me that becomes the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.....but it continuously slips away and knowing that will happen helps me miss it less..... Tension does not happen for me often (unless I am doing a commission :rolleyes: ). For that I am grateful. I find that now that I paint fiull time...I do not feel as "pressured" by time or other activities...so that has helped.

Good chapter....I appreciate Lyn suggesting that we read it first.

dspinks
07-08-2004, 11:37 AM
I appreciate that he speaks about "TENSION" (stress) Being "in the zone" because we have often talked about that here. And for me that becomes the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.....but it continuously slips away and knowing that will happen helps me miss it less..... Tension does not happen for me often (unless I am doing a commission :rolleyes: ). For that I am grateful. I find that now that I paint fiull time...I do not feel as "pressured" by time or other activities...so that has helped.

Being a relentless procrastinator, I find that the one thing that keeps me focused IS the tension. But for me it is different than stress. Stress to me is when I am not painting when I should be.

I don't have commissions (yet - always hopeful), but I do produce my best and most prolific work when I have the challenge of assignments in whatever class I'm taking at the moment. That's why I try to take at least one full-term class per quarter. I am more likely to find time amid the other demands on my life, job, home, children/grandchildren, if I have a measurable goal to strive for, and I am more likely to produce other, non-class related work.

Debra

artmom
07-14-2004, 09:19 AM
I'm baaaack! :D

Saw the wonderful Turner, Whistler, Monet Exhibition at the Art Gallery of Ontario. To see these masterpieces in real life is beyond words!

The "Aperceptive Mass" paragraph was interesting to me, pointing out how we add to our mass every day as we are the sum total of all of the experiences in our lifetime. I feel that I added a lot to my "mass" this past week in Ontario. :D

Pam, glad you are finding it helpful to read this Learning chapter first! It just seemed logical to me. :)

Lyn

Christie
07-25-2004, 12:04 PM
Well, after flipping briefly through Pam's copy of this book, I had to spend more time with it. So, one interlibrary loan later (and much reading), I have decided that I must spend money and buy it.:)

I have already learned so much in the three days that this book has been here. I feel like I am studying a foreign language and learning all those words that did not make sense before.:)

pampe
07-25-2004, 01:14 PM
*clappin and dancin*

I was about tho think everyone went on vacation....

Good Chrisite...please comment away when you get the chance

Christie
07-25-2004, 02:05 PM
*clappin and dancin*

I was about tho think everyone went on vacation....

Good Chrisite...please comment away when you get the chance

Moving on to the chapter on Learning as we speak.:D

Christie
07-25-2004, 05:36 PM
Well, I have ordered the book. Those of you who were complaining about the cost, I had to pay CAN$20 for it.:rolleyes: I could have brought one up from the US, but by the time I had covered taxes, duty and shipping, it would have come out to about the same amount.:D

Anyhow, the chapter on learning had many interesting things in it. I even fond ideas to help our son with his learning issues. Certainly there are quotes to spur him on.:)

Suddenly so much about how I learn makes sense! There is almost a little dip in my skills after I learn something new. Before I have always doubted my abilities. Now I know that I can push on and regain what is merely hiding.:D

Lyn, I went to the website and discovered the I am mainly haptic. Must look into this further.

I am going back to read this section again.

laudesan
07-25-2004, 08:53 PM
Well, I have ordered the book. Those of you who were complaining about the cost, I had to pay CAN$20 for it.:rolleyes: I could have brought one up from the US, but by the time I had covered taxes, duty and shipping, it would have come out to about the same amount.:D


I want you all to feel better and you will after reading what I did.. :rolleyes:

Could have bought the book from local book store for 30.00 AUD and waited 6 weeks for it. or go to Amazon which I did, and 80.00 AUD later.. **sigh** 20.00 for CiP 14.00 for 2nd book.. 56.00 postage.. arrived in 8 days. BUT NOT doing that again.. Too smart for my own good..:D Nearly choked when I got the bank statement. 'cause this person forgot ALL about the exchange rates.. **sigh**

I must get back to reading it and commenting..

Yooooooo-hooooooo where are the rest of you????? ;)

Remy
07-25-2004, 11:37 PM
Hi all,..I'm sorry I haven't been contributing for the past few weeks,..(was sick for three weeks but all better now :) ) and I'm currently madly trying to catch up on all the paintings posted in the gallery for those weeks. I hate missing anything,lol.

I've just read thru this entire thread tho,..to get up to speed with what eveyone is up to, and made a point just now of going upstairs to retrieve my copy of the book out of the bookshelf and brought it downstairs so I can pick it up between bouts of family mayhem,lol. I confess,..I had put the book neatly away in the bookcase instead of my bedside table because I was just too tired/sick anyway to understand any of it.

I will start reading the Learning Chapter as soon as I finish this week's painting and look forward to getting back into discussing this book with you all. I'm not entirely sure how I learn,.I think visual but I'd love to take that test to find out for sure. The Learning Chapter sounds like it will be very useful for me.

A point I'd like to comment on is;
Visualisation:
Before I start a painting I do visualise some areas(usually just the focal points of interest),..the rest usually develops as I go along. I have never visualised a finished painting in it's entirety,..never even thought to try it. But I will try for the next painting now that visualisation has been brought to my attention.

Since we are talking visualisation I thought this would be interesting to mention here,... an example of how visualisation can be useful in other aspects our lives. The other night,..my 11yr old daughter was laying in bed ready to drop off to sleep and I noticed her moving about in the bed strangely with her head bobbin around,..her forehead strained and eyes shut tight,lol,..I just watched thinking what the???,..and suddenly she opened her eyes and said with excitement!!!!! "mum!,..I just danced thru my whole routine without making a mistake and I remembered every step",..I thought to myself wow,..what a great idea,..and said to her "you should do this every night and by the time your next lesson comes along,..you would have the routine imprinted in your mind so well, that when your teacher adds on the next part of the routine,..you'll probably only need to really concentrate on the new bit that day,..the rest you will just know :).

I always do my visualising very late at night in bed before I drop off to sleep,..it's the only time I can really relax and not be interupted by noise and mayhem. I just need to visualise the bigger picture me thinks :).

artmom
07-26-2004, 07:49 AM
Good to see people popping back up in here!

Ed (DH) apologizes to everyone who has taken the measurement survey on the Learning Styles website because the mail portion of the site is not working properly so Ed cannot respond to you. :( However, if you want to discuss your results with him, just send me your e-mail address and your scores from the measurement and he will be happy to respond! :D

I've decided to use a coffee mug instead of the soup can.

Lyn

Christie
07-26-2004, 11:37 AM
I was thinking about doing a water bottle. It seems that everyone is carrying them around these days.:)

Lyn, I think that I will avail myself of your kind offer. Did you see the article in the NY Times magazine about AHDH in adults? Very interesting...

Well, I am going off to reread the section on learning and then find a water bottle. Take care.

Christie
07-26-2004, 01:41 PM
Lyn, please thank Ed for his very prompt reply to me. I got my son to take the test and he pretty much scored the way that I expected. I am going to get him to retry it after a few months in the special ed program he goes into in September. That should be an interesting comparison.:)

Christie
08-04-2004, 10:55 PM
I have my very own copy of the book now!!! It arrived about 5 minutes ago...:D

laudesan
08-04-2004, 11:12 PM
I just found mine again amoungst my England Travel Guides.. :rolleyes:

vasilkadifeli
08-05-2004, 01:15 AM
JJ why are you all trying so hard to find an object to paint... You could all paint this book which I see no one is willing to read it :D :evil:


PS. I couldn't find the book here, so I am watching closely this project...

laudesan
08-05-2004, 03:39 AM
JJ why are you all trying so hard to find an object to paint... You could all paint this book which I see no one is willing to read it :D :evil:


PS. I couldn't find the book here, so I am watching closely this project...

Have a look at Fetch Info (http://www.fetchbook.info/compare.do?search=156305664X) There are 56 book stores that have this book.. New/Used..:)

If that url doesn't work look at this one (http://www.fetchbook.info/Conversations_in_Paint.html), and click on the top book Conversations in Paint

Now that IS a good idea paint the book !!!! :D :p

.

pampe
08-05-2004, 11:20 AM
I have my very own copy of the book now!!! It arrived about 5 minutes ago...:D


:clap:

So maybe we can get back to reading and discussing....I have been bad with company here....so I will get going

JJ.....just read...the painting will come

Vasil...I hope you can get the book

Christie
08-10-2004, 09:44 PM
Well, I have started painting in some of the different styles listed. I am finding thinking about the different ways to paint the same subject to be both stimulating and VERY frustrating.:D

I am coming up with all kind of ideas that I want to paint in my regular style just to avoid thinking about working my brain around a different style of painting.:D :evil:

CharM
08-11-2004, 09:02 AM
Hi Pam... I've just placed an order for the book... I've been reading through this thread and decided that I really do wish to participate... it's so interesting... and I have so much to learn... :D

btw... Christie... I, too, ordered in Canadian dollars... $31.74!!! :eek:

leverettfinn
08-11-2004, 09:43 AM
Checking in....
Just put on today's to-do list....
1) find my copy of "Converstations in Paint"...(I remember putting it in a very safe place :rolleyes: )

Laurenwholovesherfamilybutloveswhenschoolstarts :)

artmom
08-11-2004, 09:58 AM
I'm in a very long "creative pause!" Hopefully, by reading this wonderful book, and taking part in this stimulating project, I'll break through my block!

(BTW, I'm NEVER, EVER going to clean up my studio midden again!! I haven't touched a brush since I did so! :eek:)

Lyn

pampe
08-11-2004, 11:22 AM
you all are so funny

CHARsis (I woulda gotten you the book on HALF.COM)

OK....we'll get back on track soon.....

CharM
08-20-2004, 12:56 PM
Woo hoo!!! My book arrived yesterday! I have glanced through it and will start reading the *Learning* section first...

However, I'm really, really, really busy 'case we're hosting a wedding in our back yard on Saturday...

Hopefully, by Sunday, while resting from the aftermath, I'll be able to delve into it!!!

laudesan
08-20-2004, 07:38 PM
Good one Char..

We have all been a bit slow tho' :D I have been trying to read the book, but I get past the first paragraph and then I fall asleep.. :eek:

pampe
09-15-2004, 02:20 PM
OK


so we WILL get back to this in the Fall, eh?

Christie
09-15-2004, 03:37 PM
Absolutely! I will make JJ read the book while she is here.:D

vasilkadifeli
09-16-2004, 12:11 AM
OK
so we WILL get back to this in the Fall, eh?

fall of the southern hemisphere ? LOL :D

pampe
10-03-2004, 03:47 PM
LOL


no.....OUR Fall.....now

laudesan
10-30-2004, 03:26 PM
Absolutely! I will make JJ read the book while she is here.:D

:rolleyes: :wink2: :p :D

Kate Mc
10-30-2004, 05:24 PM
Woot! I finally got my copy! I've been reading all around in it, and already I think it's fabulous. Tomorrow I'm going to go back and re-read this thread and see if there's anything I can contribute. Besides bumping it back up, that is :p .

So as of now, count me in! Lessee, I've got chocs, I bet Lyn has tea?






Kate

laudesan
10-30-2004, 05:33 PM
Lessee, I've got chocs, I bet Lyn has tea?
Kate

I still have a little of the Awesome Choc Em (mustcreate) gave me, but you will have to be quick!!

Belgium Chocs...........Oh now I know what they taste like.........."drooooooooooooooooooooooooool" :D

Faafil
10-30-2004, 06:21 PM
I've got my copy too - started reading when I first got it, and have been carrying it around in my bag for weeks thinking I'll read it during lunch at work - not. Took it to Arizona, didn't read it.... Best for me to leave it by the couch... but I'm ready whenever you are....

artmom
10-30-2004, 07:35 PM
Hi, folks! :wave:

Yes, Kate, I have tea--since this seems like a long project, I have hot tea and even iced tea!!!! Pick a tea; any tea. :D

Whooee, JJ's back in town!

Mary Lou, by the couch sounds like a good place to me!

Lyn

Pars
10-30-2004, 11:08 PM
Since I didn't see any "soup cans" I reckon there might still time to join and try to contribute to the conversation. I read through your posts, and just co-incidentally today I painted two pears, 3 xs, so I think I'd stick with pears if a repeating subject is required.

Until watercolour I don't think I was very willing to repeat much, but something about this medium has me in a slow dance of carefully positioned brush strokes moving across endless small pieces of cotton paper.

May I join you? I just got the book a week or so ago - haven't read it, just a quick perusal.

CharM
10-31-2004, 07:39 AM
Well... I've read it... and re-read it... I take it with me every Monday and thumb through it while Magoo is at guitar lessons...

There is sooooooo much information in this book... getting it all to stay put in my tired old brain is proving to be a challenge...

I'm ready to really get into it!!!

leverettfinn
10-31-2004, 07:46 AM
I am poised and ready....book in lap.....need direction please :D ...Just don't make me laugh! (recovering from "wimmen" surgery...can drive again on Tuesday! Go from climbing walls to sleeping rather quickly :rolleyes: )

Lauren

Kate Mc
10-31-2004, 09:08 AM
OK, I've gone through the book in my typically haphazard way preliminary to actually working my way through it. I can't find the part where it talks about painting something 7 times. Can you help me??


Now I'm back to the section on style...On p. 28 he says, "linear artists are square pegs and painterly artists are round pegs. If you're a painterly artist and you work in the linear style, you're a round peg trying to fit into a square hole. Maybe you can squeeze in but you won't be very comfortable. A linear personality can waste a lot of time studying with a painterly instructor unless he is willing to change his personality."

To me, this implies that you can't change your fundamental style. Ooohhh, I hate to think that's true. Do you agree? Can you become looser, less controlled, or is he talking about another dimension altogether? Does it depend on how you start out? Or are "fully formed" from the beginning?

I love his explanation of terms that I have heard/seen used but never really seen/heard defined. This chapter on style is keeping me interested, because I feel like I'm fumbling around trying to find mine. I can paint things very well, but the paintings that make my heart sing I cannot do. Am I condemned to forever be frustrated??? Or can I become more painterly?

Maybe we need a poll..... :p




Kate

pampe
10-31-2004, 08:15 PM
well well well

while I was fiddling around, everyone got serious

I'll dig mine out of the reding pile and get going again tomorrow

Any suggestions on how to proceed

THERE IS SO MUCH, I agree, Kate

Cathie Jones
11-01-2004, 06:25 PM
Well, my friends, I hate to do this, but I need to quit this project - at least for now. I'm doing the drawing lessons in the drawing/sketching forum and PageMaker class has started again. Both of these are extremely time-consuming. I just don't have time to do it all right now.

Actually, I think it's *work* that gets in the way, but DH and the mortgage company say I should keep at it for a little while longer. ;)

Y'all have fun - - I hope to check back in once in a while to see how you're doing and be a little (or a lot) jealous . . . http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Nov-2004/23460-greenwithenvysmiley.gif

dspinks
11-18-2004, 12:52 PM
Now I'm back to the section on style...On p. 28 he says, "linear artists are square pegs and painterly artists are round pegs. If you're a painterly artist and you work in the linear style, you're a round peg trying to fit into a square hole. Maybe you can squeeze in but you won't be very comfortable. A linear personality can waste a lot of time studying with a painterly instructor unless he is willing to change his personality."

To me, this implies that you can't change your fundamental style. Ooohhh, I hate to think that's true. Do you agree? Can you become looser, less controlled, or is he talking about another dimension altogether? Does it depend on how you start out? Or are "fully formed" from the beginning?

I agree in the sense that studying with an "opposite" style instructor will not automatically convert one's style from one to the other. But, if you go into the study with a goal of becoming "more" painterly or "more" controlled than you currently are, you will more easily move along the continuum between the two.

For myself, I have found that this transition cannot happen until basic skill and confidence in using the materials themselves has been attained, along with an understanding of how color, composition, value, line, form, shape, volume, etc. work together in achieving a successful painting, whether loose or tight.

Debra

pampe
11-19-2004, 03:24 PM
well, I have a problem with that section in general.

He says:

I prefer the painter understand the two camps and make an imformed choice early on...

I have wondered for YEARs what my styleis...sometimes linear, photo-realistic and sometimes painterly.....and both feel fine....does that make my art-schizophrenic?

argh

Pars
11-19-2004, 04:33 PM
Haven't read this section but find it rather out-dated thinking or perhaps just parochial. Dunn, however, is clearly not alone in this way of thinking.

I like to dabble, where it suits and work extensively to improve a style, or a medium, but not restrict myself to one.

It's probably why I'd characterize myself as a mix-media artist. I'm very encouraged about including transparent watercolour with other medium I use.

And, I noticed that Anonymous oil that you posted today. :evil: Great going, Pam.

vasilkadifeli
07-04-2005, 06:09 AM
I now have the book :rolleyes:... I decided to add it to my last order from amazon.com but no one seems to be interested to this project any more :D... I started reading the introduction chapter and the Campbell soup can is already there ;)... it looks as an interesting book with a different approach... I guess it would make a good instruction book or a guide to a teacher of arts class...

Christie
07-04-2005, 11:09 AM
Actually Vasil, i was wondering the same thing...:D I still love it for flipping through because there are so many ideas to try.

vasilkadifeli
07-06-2005, 01:35 AM
Hi Christie :wave:,

I already red 1/5 th of the book... but now although my thoughts about the book have not changed, I think that Charles Dunn is a guy that cannot express himself well... you need to hold pencil and paper and write down things much more orderly to rember them later.. also there are some parts in the book that he has not been able to explain at all... here are some I can remember :


the figure on page 25 with the scale from concept-related to image-related (the one with the diagonal line) is not explained well...
on page 28 his differentiation between linear and painterly artists is not so clear to me...
at page 30 what is the "Midi" he talks about, he should have explained it or given some reference, I tried to search the internet but I still have no idea...
at page 37 his quote "a successful painting fuses the opposites of pattern and design" is a tough one to understand...
at page 38, why is he bothering to differentiate between Sensory Fatigue and Attentive fatigue ?


and many others...

Christie
07-06-2005, 10:08 AM
Ah, but I am using it as way to get me thinking about painting! I agree that he does not always express himself well. It does seem to be very scattered in it's organization and that is what appeals to me.:D I like to be reminded of odd bits and pieces out of sequence because that is what seems to make the creative side of my brain work.:rolleyes:

Looking at your list of objections, I find I really must agree with you.:) This is not what i would call a primary reference book at all.

vasilkadifeli
07-07-2005, 01:32 AM
Yes you are right Christie... in any case I like it also... it makes you read it the hard way to understand it... could this be Charles Dunn's purpose ? :rolleyes: :D

Yesterday I printed this project, which unfortunately has not gone so far :( and started reading it... right now I am at those posts where people went to the Learning section at the end of the book and I went there also... another nice but very messy section in the book ;)...

Christie
07-07-2005, 08:36 AM
Vasil, I like that, "Reading it the hard way". Must remember to use that.

pampe
07-09-2005, 08:39 PM
LOL

Well...look at the re-born PROJECT

Guess we need to dig that book out, eh?

vasilkadifeli
07-10-2005, 01:20 PM
Pam I am half thru with the principles... it's my english of course but Charles Dunn's writings are tough to read... I took notes and I am sure if the book was reorganized better it would be a very nice book... what do editors do :confused:...

wouldn't it be nice to push it a bit and restart with the project again ;)... it would be great to have some "conversation" with WC! friends other than that in the Daily Wash... and don't forget that an unread book resting on the shelf is the most expensive one :D...

artmom
07-12-2005, 10:38 AM
Vasil, I don't think this book was meant to be a primary reference book. I view it as more of a journal written by Dunn--putting into words his musings, thoughts, etc.

I particularly like being able to dive into the book at any point and read for a short time! I began with the Learning Section because of my DH's interrest in learning styles. I don't read this book in any particular order--I just browse and pick out things that interest me.

I'll look up your references and see what you are discussing. :D

Lyn

vasilkadifeli
07-12-2005, 10:54 AM
Lynn you are right this is not a book to be given to the students... but may be it is a good outline and has nice ideas/views for the instructor... in any case I didn't like the way he explains things, there is a need for some slight reorganization of ideas/views in the book...

I have not started a discussion by the way... I am someone that mostly likes to listen instead of starting discussions :D

pampe
07-12-2005, 03:30 PM
Vasil...as you express your feeling about a certain area of the book...others will also comment

I promise to SAVE MONEY and het mine off the shelf *S*

artmom
07-12-2005, 08:43 PM
Vasil, "The Midi" is an area of France. Google it by typing the following:

The Midi in France

It is in the Pyrenees (mountains).

He differentiates between Sensory Fatigue and Attention Fatigue because Sensory Fatigue is like being overwhelmed by color or form (for instance, zig zags, harsh lines, etc.) and Attention Fatigue is esentially being bored. In Sensory Fatigue your mind takes a vacation because it cannot stand the overload of stimuli, and in Attention Fatigue your mind wanders because there is not enough there to hold it.

I hope this helps explain the two types of fatigue. :D

By the way, I think you "doth protest too much." You have indeed started a discussion--and have given us good references for continuing it!

Lyn

vasilkadifeli
07-15-2005, 02:22 AM
Pam I like your new avatar... you look great ;)

Lynn sorry for not replying to you... I genrally connect to wetcanvas from the office but nowadays I have such boring things to do... the evening before I was out with friends, yesterday I did not stay at home as I will be out this evening and will not connect to the internet on the weekend :rolleyes:... today I left also my book and notes at home... I could have said in short that the dog ate my book :D... I am kidding, I will certainly be in the project with you... but I guess this will not be earlier than monday... for the weekend I have with me the Spirit of Art, a suggestion of Arnold..

thanks for the explanation of the Midi, I searched it on the internet and found out to be the province in Pyrennes with capital city Toulouse...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jul-2005/32140-Midi.gif

I got your PM, and yes you are right, discussions are OK debates must be those I don't like, and don't want to participate... my poor english :)...

I think Charles Dunn explains things the other way around, instead of explaining those fatigue psychologies first, he could have told us in advance and very simply "do not disturb the senses of the viewer and do not create boredom to make him loose his attention" and then give some examples for them...

I am about to finish with Principles section... Design part of it was OK, but Pattern part was sooo long... I hope Materials section will be good...

I have still problems in understading the figure on page 25.. the one with a scale from concept-related to image-related at the botom and a diagonal line inside...

yesterday I tried to understand another of his chart with a diagonal line and then I gave up... it was in Type part but I don't remember the page number... if I am not wrong there were the contemporary and classic painting types on each side...

and still his sentence "a successful painting fuses the opposites of pattern and design" is a tough one to understand... will read it once again...

may be a very narrow explanation but I understand "linear" painters are those who try to achieve realism, and "painterly artists" are those with higly loose style...

I have wondered for YEARs what my styleis...sometimes linear, photo-realistic and sometimes painterly.....and both feel fine....does that make my art-schizophrenic?
Pam I think it is so nice to be able to paint in so diverse styles...

artmom
07-15-2005, 03:03 AM
Yes, Vasil, I had problems with those figures with the diagonal lines, also.

I'll try to read some more this weekend!

And your English is great! :D

Lyn

pampe
07-15-2005, 11:28 AM
LOL

Vasil...sometimes I wonder.....if I'll ever get a "style"

The figures on PAGE 25:
I don't think it is as important to understand the figures as to think about the definitions he gives on PAGE 24....it's related to what I say about my style:

IMAGE related means I try to paint REALISTICIALLY

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jul-2005/4054-pomsframed.jpg

"POMS"

CONCEPT related would be my more ABSTRACT attempts

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jul-2005/4054-eagles.jpg

"where eagles fly"

YOUR ENGLISH IS FINE!

vasilkadifeli
07-18-2005, 03:33 AM
Pam these are both very beautiful... I still think it is very nice to be able to paint both ways because you can address a greater number of customers ;)

pampe
08-03-2005, 05:41 PM
Well, I would agree with you....but I still think the main reason would be to please yourself!

laudesan
08-16-2005, 02:02 AM
My sweetie has misplaced a box of art books..:( He put boxes away on the big concrete shelf downsatirs and doesn't want to look for it..:(

I will ask him again ever so nicely, as I'd love to rejoin this discussion..:)

laudesan
08-16-2005, 02:04 AM
Pam these are both very beautiful... I still think it is very nice to be able to paint both ways because you can address a greater number of customers ;)

Maybe Vasil, but shouldn't you be painting for yourself, if you are primarily painting for the customer, where is the joy in that?? Methinks you would quickly burn out.. No???

vasilkadifeli
08-16-2005, 04:55 AM
JJ nice to hear you will rejoin the project once you find the book... I've red more than half of the book, but I've stopped now... so I may go further more...

JJ, when I said it is nice to be able to paint both ways, I had in mind that Pam is a good artist... but ofcourse at the end when she wants to paint for herself she can paint in the style she likes and get better that way... on the other hand she can get commisions on both sides and she can make money... here is the joy :D

laudesan
08-16-2005, 05:03 AM
Aha... I see what you mean now Vasil.. Yes sometimes we HAVE to paint for the sales, but mostly I prefer to paint for myself, and if they sell well and good..:D

I find if you paint for yourself, your heart is in it.

Found my book!!!!! I had a book mark on page 38, but I have no idea why/? :D

So do you want to chat about Fatigue Mutations??

vasilkadifeli
08-17-2005, 01:23 AM
So do you want to chat about Fatigue Mutations??

JJ, I brought the book to my office so I may have some time to look at it and chat...

The Fatigue Mutations topic is at page 38... Dunn speaks of two types of fatigues:

Sensory Fatigue which actually means boredom caused by the monotony of the painting (has a nice example at p.39 - same hue, intensity and value)... possible cures are introducing qualitative changes, like contrast, different values and hues etc...
Attentive Fatigue which is also boredom but not so clear to me when we speek of a painting... the example he gives is on the process of painting and not on the painting itself.. but basically I think they are both the same thing...


there must be some other type of fatigue or better disorder of attention caused by over applying the above remedies... like to much different values, hues and also having so many details all over the painting both in COI and the background... I guess he speeks of it in the Restraint topic at p.44... that's a fatigue for me too... and a very good example for this is this book :D

laudesan
08-17-2005, 01:55 AM
Attentive Fatigue.. Hang on let me get my book.

laudesan
08-17-2005, 02:00 AM
Well the first fatigue is lack of tone in colour so it is boring, right.

The second is seeing but not seeing if you know what I mean. Like the painting is not that interesting in the first place to hold your attention. Why isn't it interesting, ??

Are the lights and darks not prominent enough.

Is the subject totally boring?

Are the colours boring to you?

There are a lot of reasons why a painting will fail to hold your attention..

Do you understand now??

vasilkadifeli
08-17-2005, 02:06 AM
yes JJ you are right... it means a complete disaster in the painting :D

but I guess the biggest problem for a beginner is not Fatigue but rather Restraint which he explains at p.44

laudesan
08-17-2005, 02:14 AM
Yes you are otherwise a painting just becomes too busy.

The trick is to know when to stop, but also the trick is to know just what to put in, and what to leave out..

SO the centre of interest is probably best less is more.....right??

Like he says "if every area were equally interesting the picture would neither have centres of interest nor rest areas'.

Rest areas..
Now there is a good topic of interest..

vasilkadifeli
08-17-2005, 03:31 AM
well those areas make me think mainly of the background but they may appear else where... such areas must have less details and as I understand from p.45 must be paintend with monochromatic or at most analogous colors... in a sense they must be somewhat monotonous areas making the COI more interesting or making it pop-up... the COI must have great details, much contrast and be painted with complementary or at least analogous colors and thus be more interesting...

an interesting quote from the bottom of p.44 is "... Even there (COI), restraint can make the painting more interesting. If you omit obvious details in the center of interest, the viewer's imagination provides the missing details and he becomes an active participant in the picture-making process."

laudesan
08-17-2005, 03:42 AM
Yes I read that quote. I think I prefer to make the centre of interest something for the vieweer to fill in myself, that would keep him looking at the painting longer..

Not sure how I am going to do that on the sketch of a beach I am working on tho'. Maybe I should only paint one stripe on the umbrella in the sand and let the viewer fill in the rest..

I think if the COI is totally full of details then the eye isn't going to check out the rest of the painting then is it?? Your eye is going to rest on the COI and stay there, so you will get overload.. Taht would take you back to attention fatigue.. yes??

vasilkadifeli
08-17-2005, 04:05 AM
that may be the case JJ...

on the other hand about leaving out things in COI such as the viewer's eye will fill and make it more interesting is mentioned at Passage and Counterchange topic on p.64

btw I saw your invitation to the project in the wash, I guess Lyn may join because she was so eager to pariticipate... I was telling her (at post #141 above) that I could hardly understand those things he tries to describe on page 25... have you red that page ? was it clear to you ?

pampe
08-17-2005, 10:42 AM
will get my book out again this evening so I can join you two...it sounds like an interesting discussion

laudesan
08-18-2005, 06:37 AM
The writer is talking about leaving an opening so the eye can travel..

Yes he means that when say you paint an apple, don't close the outside of it completely. Leave a gap, where they background will be the same colour or the same value as the apple. That way there is an opening for the viewers eye to travel from the COI to the next part of the painting. Kind of like having a ribbon threaded through the painting taking the viewers eye where you want it to go..

So if you leave this opening, (soft edge) (same value) (same colour) NO the viewers eyes wont get stuck on the COI..

Going to look at page 25 now..:)

laudesan
08-18-2005, 06:56 AM
The writer is talking about realism v abstractism..

But...

He is saying that even the realist painter starts off painting in abstract. (simple forms) = symbols.. schemata

The realist artist is much more interested in getting his symbols to look like real objects, whereas the abstract artistis more interested in making his symbols look decorative.

Do you understand?

vasilkadifeli
08-18-2005, 01:56 PM
The writer is talking about realism v abstractism..

But...

He is saying that even the realist painter starts off painting in abstract. (simple forms) = symbols.. schemata

The realist artist is much more interested in getting his symbols to look like real objects, whereas the abstract artistis more interested in making his symbols look decorative.

Do you understand?

JJ sorry that I couldn't answer you today... thanks a lot, I understand that... actually I exaggerated my problem a litlle bit... my real difficulty was in understanding that diagram with the diagonal line at p.25...

btw. right now I am at p.124 and moving on... a few pages ago I learned the difference between mass and volume :rolleyes:

laudesan
08-19-2005, 06:44 AM
my real difficulty was in understanding that diagram with the diagonal line at p.25...

Yes I see..

The darker left of that line is talking about abstractism, the lighter right side of that line is talking about realism.

Where is Pam, I thought she was going to jump on in here too.. ;)

Do you want me go into full detail and explain what eaach one means??

vasilkadifeli
08-19-2005, 07:09 AM
No JJ, the concept is OK... I just don't understand why he has placed both Painterly and Linear words so close to each other... my understanding problem is the way he tries to represent the diagram...

I guess Pam probably thinks her project is in good hands so she is not around :D...

Lyn (artmom) was enthusiastic in joining again when I came with my book to the project... but she is not around...

yet we can move on if you want...

then, there is the Pattern topic (pp.52-67) which is sooo long, and I think most of the things he explains here are not so helpful to us... though the "passage and counterchange" concept I told you is in that part...

laudesan
08-19-2005, 07:27 AM
What I think is we need to discuss one thing at a time, or we will get confused..;)

I am not really sure what he means by either to be honest. I need to read it some more and think on it some more..,

vasilkadifeli
08-19-2005, 07:57 AM
OK JJ then you read it over the weekend and we can discuss it on monday... I will continue with my tour program for Italy on the weekend ;)... and will try to paint a few ACEO's...

pampe
08-25-2005, 10:09 AM
got really busy

I PROMISE....I'll be back soon, things are winding down

laudesan
08-25-2005, 10:32 PM
I am looking forward to it..:)

vasilkadifeli
08-26-2005, 12:11 AM
me too but I will be absent between Sept 10 - Oct 2...

pampe
08-26-2005, 10:25 AM
wow...THAT'S A LONG TIME, vASIL


VACATION?

vasilkadifeli
08-26-2005, 10:37 AM
Yes Pam, we will be in Italy and hope we will come back as a whole and not in parts :p