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Jet
06-05-2004, 11:14 PM
Would you like to have this forum for posting our Mixed Digital Art renditions ?.

-Plus adding a sub-forum, titled "Digital Painting" exclusively for that purpose-

*note: Digital manipulations forum to be left untouched and remains independent with its own rules.

Please vote as soon as possible, for our leaders can hear our opinions on the subject.


Regards

Michael
06-05-2004, 11:40 PM
I have to admit, I voted no here.

And yes,I know that I will be, more than likely, the only one to vote no.

I really believe adding any more Digital forums would polorize everybody in here more than they already are.

Since I bounce all over the place, and generally try to be annoying, it really wouldn't affect me to much. But I think that we would lose the talents we already draw on leaving it at just two forums.

I know that other Digital Art boards have many different forums for each style of digital art, but if you browse them, you will notice that most stick to thier own little world. I already think the two Digital forums here are polorized enough as it is.

Just my opinion :D

Elvira
06-05-2004, 11:55 PM
Michael I agree with you the only purpose I see for a seperate forum is one that specializes in teaching and tips for specific software. But if the board is primarily for display and general tips and techniques I see no reason to split it into many little cliques.

So by now you all know I'm NO # 2 :D
Edie

Jet
06-06-2004, 01:03 AM
I agree with both of you,..
This has been an open debate for some time now because it was already going on when i got here.
There is a lot of confusion for members if not new to WC, mostly new at Digital Forums, where i am on one side i agree with those members that want to post all digital art, but manips at one place, and on the other side , digital painters that feel their space is open for everyone, i guess the only forum that has its own specific rules is Photomanips forum, that's no question about it...
but there's the majority (myself included) that feel our works don't have a well defined place, i speak for those whom, in spite of having the same concerns as them i had to act upon a thin line that divides those type of renditions, and people react like they're being thrown away, because they feel their work is different than a photommanipulation for all the elements they've put together...and they're right... in a way,.. and then it gets really difficult when i have been in the same situation as they are right now, and i was told to go to manips forum to show my work, and for me , i felt it didn't belong there, or at least belonged here in a greater percentage..
So i was at that situation many times, that brought more work to guides and moderators, explaining the unexplainable, because i didn't quite understand at the time, i just did go because a higher authority said so.
So i know how these members feel now, so if we could just have that place where all these members could feel at home , there would be more time to be friendly than to be sending members away to other forums.
We would have the opportunity to accept all mixed techniques at one forum , leaving digital painters their own space, and leaving photo manipulators their own space too, one they feel now, has been invaded with mixed digital art pieces that are not Photo manipulations at all.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jun-2004/27782-argue.gif There's no need to have angry members over some misconception that could be fixed forever,by adding this needed space, finally bringing peace to this part of WC..http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jun-2004/27782-beerchug.gif
-Amén -

Too many useless discussions has been the price so far....

I pray to God, http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jun-2004/27782-eusa_pray.gif it gets more 'Yes for peace' votes.

Regards

Chiers
06-06-2004, 01:30 AM
No, I don't think there should be another forum. I see nothing wrong with all digital "ART" being presented at the same forum.

Personally I don't think that many members get their nose out of joint just because someone posts a type of digital art that they don't do. There is a very definate difference between photo manipulation/smudging pixels/effects/etc, and digital painting with traditional methods! Still, no reason to get angry and I really don't see lots of people doing that.

Besides, no matter how many digital forums you create, there are going to be some who because they either don't know the difference, or because they want to claim to have done something they didn't, that will post in the wrong place.

What I do think would be valuable perhaps might be a sticky or something that makes it clearer what the differences are between digital manipulation, and digital painting. And the expectation that everyone would be honest about what they are posting.

Michael
06-06-2004, 01:34 AM
Jorge,
That was a very well reasoned, succint post. I see your points and agree in principal...but I still think that we will be fine with two Digital forums.

Hmmm...do I need a slogan too? :evil:

"Vote no, Let Artistic Growth Flourish!" :p :D

Ummm, Sherry..you need to vote...LOL
You posted at the same time I did...very good points you made here!!

Chiers
06-06-2004, 01:46 AM
:cool: Oh, okay.... :D

Jet
06-06-2004, 02:10 PM
the only purpose I see for a seperate forum is one that specializes in teaching and tips for specific software.
Edie

Elvira,
that's a great idea: one that specializes in teaching and tips for specific software. :cool:
It's really worth of some future thought. :)

Thanks for your insights; Ideas help, and always are welcome.

Thanks for voting, too !! :clap:

Regards

themanda
06-06-2004, 03:03 PM
i'm on the fence...i honestly don't care either way. my roots are in digital manipulation and photo art, but i've taken over the last six months to focusing exclusively on original digital art. so, i can see a manip and technically admire it and/or comment on it, but as it's not *my* current passion i'm not likely to do so. so, i can live quite happily in a mixed digital forum and just stay in my little corner. :)

speaking in general terms, there are always going to be people that are unhappy with whatever. in this case, i feel the discussion was sparked by someone already very, very defensive about the perception of their work and quick to anger over it. there's little that can be done about that, but we can use it to our advantage...which i feel we are doing right now by this formal discussion and poll.

so, ultimately, i agree with sherry on adding a sticky outlining the types of digital art that will commonly be encountered in the forum, as well as a link to the asylum since i find it difficult to find, buried where it is in photography. if we wanted to get really detailed, the descriptions of each style could link to an example of what, exactly that is.

grahamrj
06-06-2004, 03:38 PM
I haven't voted yet, I'd like to see what others say first, but at the moment I pretty much agree with what Chiers wrote.

There's no need to have angry members over some misconception that could be fixed forever,by adding this needed space, finally bringing peace to this part of WC
I think that if you create a Digital Painting forum, you'll just get the same problems in a different place, ie arguments about exactly what counts as a "Digital Painting". I'd hate to have to define (or 'police') the boundary between Digital Painting and other digital art.

captan
06-06-2004, 06:15 PM
A big NO for subforums. If I was in charge I'd have one HUGE forum called "art" and threads would be listed by users preferences. I could just list all threads that are indexed with the word "digital" and "painting" for instance. In the end it's all a matter of how you organize things - some people like hierarchical subfolders - some people like indexing and search-functions.

Jet - if you are feeling torn about where to post - isn't that a sign telling you there's too many subforums? If there was only one - you'd have no choise but to post there and wouldn't even think about it. I say MERGE the forums instead. Learn to LABEL your posts if it's that important.

Jet
06-06-2004, 07:20 PM
Hi Sam and the gang,

i haven't been up to the bat today, too much office work lagging behind.. :mad:

but i've ben looking from time to time...

...and thought it would be correct to clear some confusion up..
This is not a one way ,nor a one man approach, certainly don't feel thorn anymore, i come and go to digimanips and digiart about 50 times a day ...right now at photomanips, we have a sketch tutorial going on and a filter-fest with many participants too; Manips are my roots and i will never let 'em go, i like 'it too much...art or not..

i'm trying to look at the whole picture and this type of poll serves as a democratic way to have everyone's opinion without getting into a ranting fight of opinions.

There's no war going on and am not the enemy either, i received serious concerns from members that had their own valid reasons, which by the way i have confessed what 90% of members at manips forum already knew about myself, and that happen to be the same concerns these members have nowadays.
So, after a lot of thought, i came to the conclusion that this COULD be happening in several people's heads, and the only way to be sure of what the majority is feeling is taking advantage of WC polls service.
I am at a neutral position, although i am entitled to have my own opinion, but at the end whatever the result is, for me is Exactly The Same.

This is done for everybody's peace of mind, knowing that whatever the outcome is, it was done in a democratic way, and as such the result is what rules...and i, will have to stick to it and enforce that decision, but then with the support of the strength that gives the majority.

In the future when a member feels something is done unfairly, and any of you or myself, tells his/her digital works go here or not, there will be a strong precedent that will make us take a decision faster and better knowing that the majority voted for the RULE.

...In a nutshell, that's what this is all about.....
....Majority RULES and i gladly will support and enforce what the majority decides with an... AYE AYE SIR !

Keep voting ... you have the power !!

Respectful regards to all
:cool:

beautifulfreak
06-07-2004, 04:42 AM
Call me confused, where is this Digital manipulations forum that is being talked about? I mostly lurk her in the foruma but I only see one other digital forum here at wet canvas and it seems to talk more about the craft of being digital, i.e. how do I scan, what is html, what program should I use, etc. This forum is where the art of digital seems to be talked about. Is it being said that working with photos with a computer isn't digital art? Digital art is digital art: photos, no photos, scans of your face pressed on the scan bed, if you are making art on a computer it is digital art to me. Geesh I feel like I am back in college having to defend my art pottery as art and simpathizing with a fellow student working with textiles who was having the same 'but is it art' battle with the professors.


Speaking of which there is no art pottery forum here at wet canvas...

Cronious
06-07-2004, 04:45 AM
I have been watching this for a while now and am on the fence.

Maybe as sherry suggested we could have a sticky link to explain the difference and whats okay.

So as not to split the forum into two what about a icon, like the butt icon that is used for nudes. One for pure digital painting and one for manips. This would keep the forum together and give people the opportunity to say how this was created.

I personally like the forum as one family unit, I think we can learn from both types of art after all its all arts aint it :D

Just an idea

beautifulfreak
06-07-2004, 04:50 AM
lol, I just found the subforums, I've lurked here half a year and never saw them before. Somebody needs to make these things more prominant, I'm sure I am not the only one missing these forums. :D


Still no pottery forum tho :crying:

Michael
06-07-2004, 05:02 AM
where is this Digital manipulations forum that is being talked about? ...
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE FORUM (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=96)

Jet
06-07-2004, 05:54 AM
Maybe as sherry suggested we could have a sticky link to explain the difference and whats okay.

So as not to split the forum into two what about a icon, like the butt icon that is used for nudes. One for pure digital painting and one for manips. This would keep the forum together and give people the opportunity to say how this was created.

I personally like the forum as one family unit, I think we can learn from both types of art after all its all arts aint it :D

Just an idea

And what Great Ideas indeed !! ...

1.-Sherry (chiers) is right on target about the sticky with a clear explanation.
2.-Clare (cronius) excellent an ICON, that way you go directly to the ones you
like or care for at that moment.
3.- Too many lost members look for manips next to digital, where else ? :D

Just ideas, real simple and effective without much effort. !!

thanks to Sam, Amanda, Graham, Michael and Elvira for their participation too,..and last, to beautifulfreak for letting us know where he/she (?) feels digi manips is expected to be found. ( i agree)

Thanks for taking your time, and giving this a thought...it's really needed a team work, and who else but those who love their forum and get involved in the process, that's quite admirable.

Gotta respect this bunch of Guys ..and Gals too !!. :D :clap:

It's never too late for participating, we're many members coming daily at this forum, maybe some members don't want to write anything about it , it's OK...you might as well just vote...
...As..there's a SECRET VOTE lock on this poll, so don't worry about anybody finding out about your vote...

Thanks again..

Regards
:cool:

Andrew Rance
06-07-2004, 11:29 AM
For what its worth, my vote would be to leave things as they are for the time being - at least until the art form matures a bit more. The digital art forum doesn't seem (imoh) big enough yet to justify further subdivision and people like myself would be unsure where to post (I'm neither a photomanipulator nor a 'pure' digital painter). Just my thoughts.

Jin
06-07-2004, 12:29 PM
Hi,

I voted NO on the question of adding a sub forum.

This is for all the reasons I outlined in a long message in another thread.

The way I work (and the way many other artists work) my finished pieces could often be percieved as photo manipulation (mistakenly, I think). They could also be percieved as non-"straight" digital painting, even if every brushstroke was created from scratch by me. The ways digitally created art can be percieved, and classified, are numerous, to be sure.

There are too many variables to consider, even if one were aware of all the possibilities which I believe none of us are.

This is great because we're always discovering new techniques! :)

Creating a sub forum would inevitably lead to the "need" for more sub forums, just to accommodate all of the possible ways of working.

Again, digital art is wonderful because it does provide us the opportunity to work in nearly endless numbers of ways.

One Digital Art forum is plenty.

I would suggest, though, encouraging people who share their art to give a brief outline of how the piece was created. This not to prove anything, just for the purpose of sharing knowledge and learning from each other.. and.. it makes the piece more interesting, knowing how the artist created it.

That's my thought for the day.. so far. ;)

JulieBoyles
06-07-2004, 05:21 PM
I've been waffling on this for a couple days and finally decided to get off the fence. I voted no for the simple reason that even though I don't post enough, I really enjoy looking at all the digital art posted here. I would be less likely to look at everything if we were divided. I do however like the idea of an icon just to identify what I'm looking at.

I think this is a wonderful forum and just wanted to say thanks for all the work you all put into it!

Julie

Jet
06-07-2004, 08:11 PM
Hi guys:
Gone for a while, got so tired i was fearing a heatstroke, this town is on fire, the outside temp is 100º+...pant pant.

3 very respected artists with their own respectful opinions..
thanks a lot for stepping up and for your vote as well !! :clap:

Some ideas are common ground in many of us...that's very interesting as the results are going to reflect how most of the members at this forum feel as a group, and that really helps the people upstairs and the Big kahoona to know what's needed, where and how !!

The best that is happening is that members feel confident enough to express themselves knowing there's a profound respect on what all and every one has to say.
Thanks Andrew, Jin and julie for your words and for your vote... :clap:

tskinner
06-08-2004, 12:09 PM
Even though I'm still a rookie here, I had to go no at least for now. I haven't had much time to get the feel of everything yet but so far I like the mix of threads. If someone doesn't like a particular thread they don't have to view it. (Freedom of choice!)

Michael
06-08-2004, 12:44 PM
I have to admit, I am surprised at the voting so far. I honestly thought that there would only be two or three no votes. What an intriguing discussion though.

Now..If y'all excuse me...I have to send an anonymous Email to Jorge and call him a bunch of names or something :evil:

Jet
06-08-2004, 02:42 PM
Tracy, thanks for your insights..
...have to respect someone from my 2nd home town !!

How's the temp at The Ranch, fellow Tucsonian ?....100+ i guess :evil:
.... That's a temp for locals only, and our friends from the north must be all gone by now...next comes beer busts fun ! ;)

Ahh! Like it's said: all Tucsonians are going to heaven because all their life they went through hell !! i love that :D

Thanks tracy, i hope we can see you more often at this forum. :cool:

-------

Note to Michael..:mad:
Dear friend: Please stop sending anonymous PMs... :D :p

Regards to all

peoplepainter
06-13-2004, 01:23 AM
Oh now isn't this just a fire-starter?
I have watched the posts but I am such a weenie I haven't vote yet. Now that I know a lot of you I am voting. No.
I agree with Jin, I do enjoy knowing how a work was created. That's how we learn! It would be very nice to see the basics: The programs, mouse or pen, and photos "incorporated" or as reference only. I think it's all art but I wanna learn too.
I also agree with Julie. I have enough trouble keeping up with all the amazing artwork posted. I wouldn't have the time or energy to go looking in a bunch of different spots. I already get a million notices in my e-mail about new posts and I love looking at all of them...in one place conveniently.
I also think leave it up to the individual artist if they want to post in another category as well. They should feel welcome there too!
Little icons a good idea too.
Hope I didn't tick anyone off. Don't want my two cents to cost a fortune.

Jet
06-13-2004, 02:17 AM
Lisa,
your vote and your reasons are deserve our full respect and consideration.

....We can't thank enough the members who are voting... :clap: ...

It's funny how i placed a lock on the poll so the names couldn't be seen..
and members post what their vote is..... that is great !! Thanks !!

C'mon please vote we're more than 30 members attending this forum....or am i wrong?

mmmhhhmm , maybe the majority is from digimanips...... PLOP !!

i guess i'll fill up this poll mysef........excuse me........http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jun-2004/27782-berreta_ani.gif


just kidding...come on vote...!!

Regards

ps--MIchael:...lobster...lobster...lobster...lobster...lobster...lobster...lobster...lobster...

Michael
06-13-2004, 03:07 AM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/13-Jun-2004/31740-this.jpgHEH-heheh-heheh-heheh-heh

cadence57
06-16-2004, 04:30 PM
Hey gang,

I only found WC because an artist friend directed me to a thread regarding a painting he'd done of me. For the longest time, I thought this site was ONLY about "Wet Canvas" (ie: painting)... Then, one day, I got curious and started browsing; this is when I found the photography forum and then the photo-manips forum... and because Jorge had a link posted for Digi-art, I wandered over to this side...

Had it not been for the art I saw in the photo manips area, I'd have never (ok, maybe not NEVER, but certainly not as soon) tried to create some digital art (and I use the term loosely) myself. Being here has been such a wonderful learning experience and it's only by being exposed to the possiblilites that someone even finds out that there ARE possibilities!

No fence for me - I'm not kicked up at the idea of sub-forums for digital manips/art.This whole WC site is pretty large and intimidating - My vote is for KISS theory (Keep it Simple, Sweetie). My only wish would be for this forum to be a bit easier to find - I keep expecting it to be in the photography area!

<getting off my soapbox now...>

Michael
06-16-2004, 05:12 PM
marti,

Never looked at it that way before, but you are right..the easier the better!

cadence57
06-16-2004, 06:01 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/16-Jun-2004/18858-31740-this.jpg Backatcha!

Michael
06-16-2004, 07:27 PM
I WANNA KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angel:

cadence57
06-16-2004, 08:31 PM
I WANNA KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angel:

LOL keep wanting, m'dear...

You'll get over it :D

Michael
06-17-2004, 05:45 PM
:crying:

cadence57
06-18-2004, 06:41 AM
:crying:

AWWWWWWWWWWWW :(

Jet
06-20-2004, 01:10 AM
As the end is approaching i want you to know the real purpose of a separate forum, which i had decided not to reveal earlier, so as not to influence the poll results in any way...The voting is closing up on the 29th. so our leaders will have the result on the 30th,

The votes tend to drift now toward a separate forum, maybe because some more fellow painters from the traditional forums are coming more often. and probably they would feel better if there was a separate forum so they could land right in their element, without having to post their works mixed with the other digital fashions.
..And that would make sense..as now we're just thinking at what is good for me only, and are missing the traditional painters in the whole picture.

If we want our Digital Art to ever gain respect in the art community , we will have to set a place apart for traditional-oriented artists, so they can make a flawless and painless transition into the digital revolution without getting their works washed off screen by all the other digital works that we now post by the 100s.
Without the fear of getting washed off, many TODAs (Traditional-Oriented Digital Artist) will be coming back , knowing that they will meet other painters with traditional methods in mind.
So, the formation of this new forum is not for separating our few TODAs, but to attract the 100s that potentially would embrace the Digital approach, therefore having a new understanding of the subject , being able to go back to their forums and share their Positive experiences, and most likely gaining new adepts on a daily basis.
That would bring a lot of well being and respect to the digital art community in general, and to Wet Canvas in particular.

This was the main purpose for getting a separate forum, and as you can see it wouldn't separate our artists, but it would bring new artists into our Digital art community...
I know it's not far the day that we will have a Traditional-Oriented Digital Arts [TODA] Forum, maybe not for many of us , but sure will be quite a luxury, to have exceptionally talented traditional artists coming right next door and create their masterpieces , now just using the digital medium in a different form...
That is like having a free Fine-Art School next door, and free to come and go, and learn so many techniques ..
..oh, well ! it's just a dream but it's getting closer to reality day by day.... :clap:

Regards

peoplepainter
06-20-2004, 01:18 AM
That was very well said regardless of how it turns out. I hope if there is a sub forum it will be easier to find than the manips forum in Photogrpahy. Make it easy to find! Please!

Jet: It's nice to see "us" together in your avatar. LOL

cadence57
06-20-2004, 01:19 AM
So, the formation of this new forum is not for separating our few TODAs, but to attract the 100s that potentially would embrace the Digital approach, therefore having a new understanding of the subject , being able to go back to their forums and share their Positive experiences, and most likely gaining new adepts on a daily basis.
That would bring a lot of well being and respect to the digital art community in general, and to Wet Canvas in particular.



Well, that makes sense -- and based on what you've said here, I'd tend to agree :)

Jet
06-20-2004, 05:20 AM
Thanks Marti and Lisa..

Marti, it's cool , we had to go through an internal poll first, and during that time there was
complete freedom to express ourselves without getting into endless discussions...
Our beloved Digital Art Forum looks and feels more at ease and homogeneous to the ousider now,
and that reflects a peaceful and cool place, nice to visit and stay longer...

As you've been watching the increase in the number of posters from other forums....and many of those had gone away for some reason , now they're back...and that's thanks to all of you that make this place a fun and entertaining adventure... The Digital Art Forum (DAF), is now a chosen destination by members and visitors alike thanks to all of you... :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks for making the DAF a more DAFfy place for all !!! :clap:

Regards
:cool:
_________________





pst.. Lisa.. http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/27-Apr-2004/27782-peck.gif

Woof-a-Doof
06-20-2004, 08:00 AM
I voted yes! There need be a sub-forum for Digital Painting.


The votes tend to drift now toward a separate forum, maybe because some more fellow painters from the traditional forums are coming more often. and probably they would feel better if there was a separate forum so they could land right in their element, without having to post their works mixed with the other digital fashions.


Hmmmmmmmm... Perhaps we should be clear on our motives. Is this "Painter Forum" to benifit folks from other forums and to asure they have a cushy transition? Gawd forbid thier works get mixed with other digital fashions.



If we want our Digital Art to ever gain respect in the art community , we will have to set a place apart for traditional-oriented artists, so they can make a flawless and painless transition into the digital revolution without getting their works washed off screen by all the other digital works that we now post by the 100s.
Without the fear of getting washed off, many TODAs (Traditional-Oriented Digital Artist) will be coming back , knowing that they will meet other painters with traditional methods in mind.

Hmmmmmmmm... sure sounds like TODAs require alot of Kid-Glove treatment. Again I suggest motives be evaluated. Hopefully, a "Digital Painter Forum" will be designed and structured to benifit the Digital Painter. What would benifit the TODA, allowing ample space to show off thier efforts, or a Q/A on settings of a particular brush in a specific program?

I am of the opinon that each of us would do well to have a forum of our own interests and a "General Forum". A forum where specifics regarding an application we use and a forum where we can all show off our efforts. Here a Digital Artist (Traditional or otherwise) can ask detailed questions and offer indepth discussion on matters pertainning to a specific program. A place to show our WIP's and to gather ideas for our efforts. Then a "General Forum", where we can all gather to show off our work (understanding that posts will be washed away as others are posted) If, upon review in the "General Forum" anyone that might have a question that requires more investigation, the questioner can follow up in the appropriate forum.

Personally, I am not a "Painter", nor am I a "Photo-Manipulator".... I am a Digital Artist. I am a Digital Artist that values the input of "Traditional Artists" or other "Digital Artists" with a Traditional background. That was my reason for joining WC, because of the overwhelming majority of "Traditional Artists".

The huge numbers of "Traditional Artists" is an attribute that many/most/all other Art Boards lack! Conversely, understanding that Digital Art has multiple facets and is MORE than Photo-Manipulation & Painting... this is an area where Wet Canvas could improve!

I get the feeling the sub-forum has already been planned and is soon to be implemented. I appreciate the idea of Democracy, but think the responcibility of structuring the site, falls on the owner of the site.

I hope the coffee is done now.................

grahamrj
06-20-2004, 11:11 AM
I am totally confused!

If we want our Digital Art to ever gain respect in the art community , we will have to set a place apart for traditional-oriented artists, so they can make a flawless and painless transition into the digital revolution without getting their works washed off screen by all the other digital works that we now post by the 100s.
You mean 100s of works posted in this forum? So the effect of this change will be that the majority of works currently posted here will be disallowed in the new sub-forum? Which ones exactly will be disallowed, and how on earth will such decisions be made?

And really, I don't understand anything you said! Digital artists will get respect by making great images (any old way) not by some bizarre new classification such as a TODA.

I am just :confused: not :mad: (I don't care enough to get :mad: )

Jet
06-20-2004, 11:54 AM
Yes i agree, but you're mixing the concepts here and most likely people got confused.

1.- the poll is talking about a new forum for those who do freehand digital painting, regardless where they come from. it would be open to anyone who wants to experiment doing digital art with the traditional approach in mind.
no manips, no filters , just raw technique with no external help.
This forum would be ideal for those who would want to learn how a painting is done and simulate it in digital, so it's easier the transition when taking the traditional painting in real life.

2.- once open that forum, this (DAF) forum would be open for mixed digital works..
That would leave the photomanipulation forum just for that, which by the way, it's not working right now, as many members feel it should be closer to this forum, and now here everything goes and we have all-in-one forum..

The classification should be clear enough for anyone to understand what is what, with graphical examples including pictures and explanations in writing


I get the feeling the sub-forum has already been planned and is soon to be implemented. I appreciate the idea of Democracy, but think the responcibility of structuring the site, falls on the owner of the site.

you are free to get all the feelings you like , only is irresponsable to suggest that i or the management are playing games, or wasting your time, and the decisions are already have been made for you.
This type of suppositions are dangerous for any relationship.
Everyone who has replied, did so with no assumptions, as they don't have a place in any assertive conversation; they are misleading and tendentious, hard to confront and so easy to avoid responsabilty for their real meaning.

Assumptions are accusations without "guilt", and i'd rather
that when addressed to any of my acts no assumptions were used.

I have deep respect for each and every one of the members, and i've been trying to encourage respect and confidence among members as well, so, i frankly don't deserve to be be questioned by an absurd assumption, with no solid ground, no actual evidence nor former behavior that could back you up in any case.

Let's pretend you didn't say it, and move on to our next topic.....:rolleyes:

*************************************************

In Mexico today is the celebration of Father's day. i will be attending some parties, so i guess ......i am signing off for most of the day....i'll see you later tonight......but ..not before....

---As Michael wants to know the lyrics of the infamous mexican song "La Cucaracha"...
....I will use this space for that fun topic instead....and i'll go while singing along :music:

La Cucaracha
:music:
Coro:
La cucaracha, la cucaracha,
Ya no puede caminar;
Porque no tiene, porque le falta
Marijuana que fumar.

Ya murio la cucaracha,
Ya la llevan a enterrar,
Entre cuatro zopilotes
Y un raton de sacristan.

Con las barbas de Carranza,
Voy a hacer una toquilla,
Pa' ponersela al sombrero
De su padre Pancho Villa.

Un panadero fue a misa,
No encontrando que rezar,
Le pidio a la Virgen pura,
Marijuana pa' fumar.

Una cosa me da risa:
Pancho Villa sin camisa;
Ya se van los carrancistas
Porque vienen los villistas.

Para sarapes, Saltillo;
Chihuahua para soldados;
Para mujeres, Jalisco;
Para amar, toditos lados.

grahamrj
06-20-2004, 12:22 PM
1.- the poll is talking about a new forum for those who do freehand digital painting, regardless where they come from. it would be open to anyone who wants to experiment doing digital art with the traditional approach in mind.
no manips, no filters , just raw technique with no external help.
Still confused. I look forward to the explanations and illustrations of what you mean. In many of my digital paintings, I use brushes which work like filters (eg saturating, blurring) but apply them freehand as I would a brush which mimics (say) oil paint. Is this 'just raw technique' or will such work be innappropriate in the new forum? And I sometimes use layers, and copy areas and adjust the colour balance of the whole picture and so on. I think it is probably fair to say I very rarely have any traditional medium in mind when I paint digitally, yet sometimes the end result may look quite like a painting done in a traditional medium. As far as I can tell I am a non-traditionally-oriented digital painter. Yikes!

Don't feel obliged to answer these questions now. I just can't help thinking that you'll go mad trying to explain what is and isn't allowed. Still, your problem not mine :evil: ;)

Chiers
06-20-2004, 01:07 PM
I still think that the efforts of digital painters would be better directed toward education than a geographical move to separate the different modes of digital art. One thing in particular would be very advantageous if only to digital artists themselfs and is a constant frustration to me that it is something many just can't seem to understand.

ART.....and......PAINTING are not the same thing! If someone says "that is not PAINTING" that doesn't mean it is not ART. Nor that is is any less than. This concept seems to create problems among digital artists all the time. How are we going to educate non digital artists if we cannot even educate ourselves? Art covers all modes, painting does not.

The only thing that would be acomplished by a separate forum for painting would be the creation of a smaller, less interesting forum, and more clicking time. Ummm, that is if one would even bother to take the time. I used to belong to many groups that had separate boards. That was fine if there is more than one board for educational tips, links, etc. But if the "art" wasn't on just one board then usually, it wasn't seen. Or, often missed.

Also, where would it all end?? For instance, the new vector program I just got. Where would that go?? It isn't painting, it isn't manipulation of a photo, it isn't 3d. Should vector art have a separate forum too? NOT....hee hee!

Also....just an added comment...I think all polls should be open!

Jut my two...or maybe three cents worth.

Elvira
06-20-2004, 04:53 PM
I'm afraid this specialization may do to the digital forum what I see in some non-digital forums, a elitism that so far has been missing for the marjority of Digital forums I'm on that are inclusive. When I see it crop up I usually move on as I don't have time for the one-up manship discussions that ensue.
Edie

Jin
06-20-2004, 05:29 PM
Hello WetCanvas Digital Art-ees!

This is an interesting thread and I'm enjoying watching the exchanges, and interested to see how it all turns out. Before it all "turns out", I'd like to add some comments to those I made earlier on this general subject.

It seems to me that there's a fair amount of ignorance (just not having enough knowledge and experience) when it comes to understanding the transition from traditional painting, drawing, woodcut making, and so many more art forms (all traditional), to creating their digital equivalents. This is not to even mention how the artist works once that transition is well under way, and later when they've become experienced digital media artists.

For the purposes of this thread, let's stick only to the subject of the artist who begins by painting with traditional brushes, canvas, watercolor paper, or whatever surface it may be onto which the paint is applied, or the artist who begins using digital media and wants to simulate traditional media painting.

From my observations over almost a decade with traditional painters who've made this transition to digital painting using Corel Painter, Metacreations Painter, or Fractal Design Painter, almost **none** of these artists do their digital painting without using some other feature, or many other features, found in Painter other than simply/simple brushes and the Painter Canvas (base of the image).

As another member indicated, we sometimes use brush variants that work like filters, right there while the brushstrokes are made. These brush variants, for instance, add texture, glow, darken the underlying paint, and a large number of other effects. All this while the artist paints digitally to simulate traditional media painting.

Other brush variants simulate Impasto paint, the depth, or thickness, of which is adjusted by moving sliders before painting, along with sliders for such characteristics as "plow" meaning whether one brushstroke plows through another brushstroke or is painted on top of the other brushstroke, and negative or positive depth. Lighting on the Impasto paint can be adjusted by opening another dialog box and adjusting more sliders, even after the fact of painting. Interaction of Impasto paint between Layers and between Layers and the Canvas is controlled by choosing options from a drop down menu in the Layers palette.

Liquid Ink is painted on a special Liquid Ink Layer and both the amount of depth, or thickness of the paint, and density of the brushstroke can be dynamically adjusted as many times as the artist wants during the process of creating and completing the painting.

Painter's Water Color brush variants and special Water Color Layers can be used not only to do simple painting of brushstrokes. This technology includes other features that allow us to lift the painted base Canvas to a Water Color Layer, choose a Water Color variant and a Paper texture, then wet the entire Water Color Layer to get a wide array of effects from subtle to extreme. There are numerous settings that can be made to any Water Color variant, including a setting that causes the paint to be "blown" in any direction the artists chooses.

Traditional media artists who now do their painting using digital media very often use multiple Layers as an aid in glazing, sometimes changing the Layer Composite Method to get the desired result. They use Layers too, to carefully blend their brushstrokes with underlying colors while working without fear of damaging completed painting on those underlying Layers and the Canvas.

Much of this kind of thing was talked about in a long post I made earlier, and there's a great deal more that can be said to make the point that a traditional media painter who makes the transition to digital painting the majority of the time, will **not** use only brushes and the Canvas to complete their paintings, whether or not they paint "freehand". In Painter, it takes some understanding of the program to even avoid painting with brush variants interacting with Paper texture.

Just as a traditional canvas or watercolor paper has texture, so the artist doing digital painting most often wants to see texture in their digital painting. The artist may want to create their own Paper textures to use in Painter. In fact, most do create their own art materials to get the results they want. While this supports the end result of successful painting, it is not just painting. It may involve scanning, painting, drawing, even the use of photos of various textures like stucco, brick, cement, stones, or a multitude of other items.

Just as a traditional painter may have some favorite brushes that are, for instance, beat up enough to paint with special results, the digital artist simulating traditional painting will also want to customize their brushes. One way of doing this is to base the brush dab on an image of some kind (painted, drawn, scanned, or even a photo) and create what's called a Captured Dab brush variant. There are whole Painter artist-created custom brush libraries containing dozens of brush variants many of which are Captured Dab variants, created to simulate the artists favorite traditional media brushes, including "rough" brushes, "worn" brushes, and so on.

Even with traditional painting other tools and materials are used in addition to brushes and paint. Think of the watercolorist who sops up extra paint with a tissue, towel, or other material, tilts the watercolor paper to make the paint run, sprinkles salt on it to add interesting texture, or blows on the wet paint to make it spray across the paper. That traditional watercolorist is not simply painting on watercolor paper with watercolor brushes. He or she is using all the tools, imagination, and skills he or she has at hand and wants to use to get the desired result.

It's the same with digital art, but the methods are different, many, and varied and take a long time to learn and understand. In fact, as others have often read me saying, no one knows everything that can be done with Corel Painter, the current version or even the older versions, not even the long time Painter experts and professionals know it all.

Certainly someone unfamiliar with the program, or even in the first year or so of learning it, is going to have a very hard time defining what methods and techniques make up and are included in "digital painting".

The possibilities, and often the necessities, working in digital media may be (experts say they are) even more widely varied than in traditional media painting.

I agree that one could go mad, or at least wear themselves out, trying to define digital painting if they are serious about being accurate in their definition.

I too have to say that it did appear to me that the decision has been made to open a new forum for digital painting, if it was not made earlier, at least by now, well before the end of this month when the poll is to be closed.

This is not an assumption. It's just how it appears, considering that the poll is not closed, more who have voted have voted "no", and we've already been given the reasoning behind the apparently soon to be made decision. As it's been explained to us, one of the reasons, if not the main reason, is to attract traditional media painters. It occurs to me to ask, were WetCanvas' traditional painters asked to vote in this poll too? If the reasoning is to attract them, it would seem appropriate for them to be included in the voting.

Since it's been stated here that there is great respect for all members, I trust that my comments will also be treated with thoughtfulness, courtesy, and respect.. and that they'll be considered if not before a decision is made to create a new forum for digital painting, at least after that project is underway.

However it turns out, it's really up to those who run WetCanvas. Since we were asked to vote, we did, and many of us have also expressed our thoughts.

I do hope that whatever is done, the change will be as smooth as possible and WetCanvas members will be happy about it. After all, without reasonably happy members, no forum site can be a success.


Best wishes! :)

Elvira
06-20-2004, 08:19 PM
By the way I am a traditionally trained painter / educator who has transitioned to Digital Paint via PSP and Painter, I mainly use PSP for image manipulation and Painter to paint, the hardest thing has been for me the transition from pigment colour to pixels.
Edie

Jet
06-20-2004, 09:45 PM
Graham , sorry i haven't answered directly to you, but as i see we all have the same confusion here, so i hope the answers from Elvira and Jin can answer your questions and mine too. :)

Sherry, same as Graham...:)
-------------
By the way I am a traditionally trained painter / educator who has transitioned to Digital Paint via PSP and Painter, I mainly use PSP for image manipulation and Painter to paint, the hardest thing has been for me the transition from pigment colour to pixels.
Edie

A very interesting insight from someone from the traditional ways.
That's something to take note about.....

Thanks Elvira...
I'll write this down so i can PM you later and dig deeper on the subject.... http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif


Thanks
-----------------------------------
Hello WetCanvas Digital Art-ees!
This is not an assumption. It's just how it appears, considering that the poll is not closed, more who have voted have voted "no", and we've already been given the reasoning behind the apparently soon to be made decision. As it's been explained to us, one of the reasons, if not the main reason, is to attract traditional media painters. It occurs to me to ask, were WetCanvas' traditional painters asked to vote in this poll too? If the reasoning is to attract them, it would seem appropriate for them to be included in the voting.

First of all,-as i said earlier- it would be as if my intention was to force a certain result, which is certainly not----
My desire is one thing, but i won't get into doing underground propaganda at other forums just so i can have it my way--hard to believe but that's the martian me !!
Let's remember that as many (wrong, or right) reasons i could give , your votes are what are going to do the talking..
.also, that's one of the reasons why the decision was made for doing this poll, a secret-vote poll: so anyone can come and vote freely without getting nasty e-mails or remarks for having voted against someone else's preferences -mine included.

it's hard to believe, as nowadays everyone seem to be lying on TV and everywhere else, be to gain voters, selling a product or take some type of advantage over something or someone.

At Wet Canvas that kind of behavior is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN, and we as guides are being monitored at all times, being SEVERELY SANCTIONED in case of being found taking advantage of rank, for misleading members into voting for getting any personal benefit or satisfaction of any kind.

Rest assured......Next some pointers:

*-This poll is not intended for all other forums to openly come and vote, although there are many members from other forums that are constantly attending, and they have the right to vote as they feel now this forum as theirs too.
*-The formation of a new forum takes long time and hard work to convince the big kahoona and staff about it.
*-It costs money to WC, due to bandwidth and other technicallities i don't easily understand..
*-This poll is done as preliminary work for our leaders take notice that something's cooking -in case there is enough voters, if not they won't even bother to look our way-
.....................
Since it's been stated here that there is great respect for all members, I trust that my comments will also be treated with thoughtfulness, courtesy, and respect..

Jin, how can anyone not respect someone who writes this eloquently, and right to the point.
This is by far the best way to put the digital art approaches, and as i can see, you're a teacher too.

I've seen your site, and have followed your lessons and tutorials to the letter...long time before you kindly left a link to one of your fine tutorials on the linKing thread....

*-take next example--For instance:
- If i do a painting from a photograph, the way you do it, wisely taking advantages of every tool Painter has, my painting will have a certain quality look--let's rate my painting as 3 in quality and 3 in looks as i am not experienced enough...
-Now i go and take that same photograph and do my photomanipulation-fake-painting method by using many techniques, filters ,plugins and tweaks--let's rate now my painting --it will have 8 in quality and 8.5 in looks as i'm experienced in this field already.
would you teach how to do these techniques as shortcuts or as means to do better than average work in your classes ? and why ?

Why none of the Digital-art teachers have tutorials for these type of paintings ?
I and 90% of the fellow manipulators would gladly pay for these type of courses,... so what's the deal ?
why aren't those techniques included in the digital art teachers repertoire ?

Sincerely, by answering these questions, you'll be giving us some enlightment that might get us out of this state of ignorance toward this topic.

As i realize, i have as many doubts as any of you, therefore declare myself unfit for giving you a coherent answer on the topic....And at the same time, if you take your time for answering these questions, you might find some answers for some of the questions we all now have about the whole classification bussiness.

Thanks for your perfectly timed intervention.. :)

When in doubt abiut how i really feel about all this digital madness thing, plese refer to this little

Regards :clap:

ps--what really would be, sarcastically and bizarre funny is, that at the end,....
............ all digital art (manips included) would be placed in one mixed single forum !!...:D
................that would make my day and crack me up for life.....:p :cool: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Dec-2003/27782-rofl2.gifreminder (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2384408&postcount=25)

Jet
06-20-2004, 11:04 PM
--Erratas--
-sorry for a couple of features that i hate from this place:-------
1.- 1 hour limit for editing your posts
...I got timed out in the middle of editing last thread, so this sentence will have no meaning..:
When in doubt abiut how i really feel about all this digital madness thing, plese refer to this little
...
2.- All add-ons go to the end of text.-
it happens that when one adds an auto feature (link or smiley), WC software blindly places it at the end of the written text, so it makes it so hard to add smileys or links after the text has been completed-] :mad:

This leads to broken text sentences and the nonsense as well...
------------------------
So the correct sentence should be read as:
When in doubt about how i really feel about all this digital madness thing, please refer to this little Reminder (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2384408&postcount=25)

Thanks

Regards

Jin
06-21-2004, 02:37 AM
Jet,

Yes, I am a teacher by practice and by nature.

Unlike Elvira, however, I did not go to school to learn to teach or to learn to be an illustrator, graphic artist, or technical writer for that matter (except for a lot of one at a time, two at a time classes scattered over the years and one year solid day and night after I retired).

While I have tons of hands on, on the job experience, there's certainly something to be said for getting a good education .. in school where you can focus on learning. Elvira knows things I'll probably never know and wish I had the time to learn, so I try to absorb everything possible wherever I go and hope that when it's time to toodle off to heaven (that is where I'm going) ;) my time won't have been wasted.

Since before I can remember, freehand drawing has been one of my loves, and I've continued drawing and inking both in my free time at home and on a few jobs at work or when I freelanced for a few years. Every now and then I've dabbled with watercolors or some other art medium but never enough to become really excellent with them. Still it's fun and it's helped me to understand what other artists are trying to do.

About teaching Painter and how it's done:

I'll tell you how I teach, but first let's talk about how other Painter instructors teach so you'll see the bigger picture:

Some Painter instructors teach less structured and less costly classes where the lessons are suitable for people who may not have an art background, or not much of an art background, many never have worked professionally as an artist or worked in related fields, who don't plan to make a career of art, and who are most happy to work on uncomplicated projects that can be done fairly quickly and with which they'll feel some success pretty quickly. Often these students are hobbyists, homemakers, retired men and women, and just having a great time playing and learning. The kinds of things I've seen taught include but are not limited to, painting flowers, compositing two or more photos and/or changing a background in a photo, painting a simple landscape sometimes from scratch, Clone painting to turn a photo into a watercolor/oil/pastel painting, and applying Painter Effects, Photoshop filters, and other kinds of filters to quickly turn a photo or other image into something they like. All of this is good, and when it makes everyone happy, that's even better.

Other Painter instructors, are also authors or co-authors of Painter books. They teach via tutorial CD's sold on their own websites or video CD's sold on a website where other teaching materials are also sold. Some of these instructors also teach in person, in workshops, and retreats, sometimes also in college or university classes, and sometimes in the corporate environment. The styles of teaching and material covered vary quite a bit, from focusing on Painter the program and learning how to use each feature step by step with projects to enforce learning those features, to focusing mainly on painting using some image or photo as either visual reference, for tracing then painting, or as the Source for Clone painting. In the latter example where painting is more the focus, Painter the program seems to be taught more as an overview to get started, then learned along the way, enough to accomplish the projects and when questions come up in the course of working through tutorials or in workshops. Some of these same Painter instructors who also teach in college or universities have widely varying styles of teaching in their classrooms and tend to cover teaching Painter in whatever ways feel most comfortable for them, best fit their own talents, and best suit the needs of the class. I've been enrolled in three community college and University of California at Santa Cruz Extension Painter classes two of which were taught by an instructor who co-authored a Painter book with another instructor from whom I took a Photoshop class. Though both of these gals knew Painter and both taught Painter, their personalities and teaching styles were quite different. One was funny, forgetful, and quirkily talented but kept us entertained and excited to learn the next thing. The other was quiet, sensitive, and thorough. She was a calming influence which helped in another way, to allow us to concentrate on whatever it was were learning. We learned a lot over the 13 weeks in each class. The instructors mentioned above are all professionals, artists, writers, and instructors and their classes are excellent and geared well for anyone wanting to go into art as a career as well as for people who just want to use the program for pleasure.

Now you're probably wondering what the heck they taught us. The answer is pretty simple. they taught us to use the program and have a good time in the process. They were there to answer questions when we ventured beyond the lessons. They were there to inspire and encourage us. They were there to support us however we planned to use this knowledge later on, some of us in our jobs, some of us to continue working in new jobs, some of us for pure enjoyment. Each student needs to learn in his or her own way and to learn what it is that will allow them to create in his or her own way.

In addition to those instructors mentioned above, two of the most well loved and well respected Painter instructors, who've been writing Painter books and teaching around the country and also outside of the U.S. for a very long time are Cher Threinen-Pendarvis and Jeremy Sutton. Both have published books this year as well as in past years, Cher's "The Painter 8 WOW! Book" and Jeremy's " Painter 8 Creativity: Digital Artist's Handbook" were published this year. Though I'll talk about them together because I think of them as two of the best, they are quite individual in their pursuits.

Most Painter users know of Cher and many own her series of "The Painter WOW! Books". I own three if memory serves me (and one of my images is in The Painter 6 WOW Book on page 14. Get out your magnifying glass, 'cause it's a little one). Jeremy is equally well known and whenever he publishes Painter teaching materials the Painter community is eager to buy them. He's a gifted teacher and an artist in his own right who, at various times, approaches Painter both from the standpoint of learning the program well, and from the standpoint of learning how to use Painter to do portrait painting among other things he teaches about Painter. Cher Threinen-Pendarvis is also a talented and successful artist and her WOW! Books are known for their great collection of techniques used by many professional artists. Some include step by step instructions but other Painter users say the WOW! books are just a tad advanced for the rank beginner to first needs to learn enough about Painter to begin using it. Cher and Jeremy each teach Painter, separately, in various locations and Cher worked with Corel to design the new Painter 7 Water Color brushes which we see now in Painter 8. I missed a four day Painter class with Cher up in Mendocino County, CA a few years ago as I was ill just at the wrong time, darn it! I know it would have been great fun and I recall that she was teaching painting in that four day class, probably landscapes.


Though I'm a latecomer relative to some of the best Painter instructors, I've taught Painter for several years all over the Painter community and beyond, wherever people have questions I'm able to answer. I've done a lot of this for free because I love seeing others enjoy Painter as much as I have. In more recent years, I've also taught in formal for-fee Painter classes and since August 2002, in private forums at my own message board, TutorAlley Forums.

During my nearly 28 years working as a technical illustrator, graphic artist and graphic designer, and during the last six of those years, as a technical writer, I also gathered a good deal of informal on the job teaching/training experience which is probably why teaching now is so comfortable for me. There's always been someone around who needed to be taught what I'd already learned, and since I enjoy teaching, it was natural to pass it on.

The way I teach has evolved and continues to evolve just as it probably does for most of the really good Painter instructors I admire. One thing that I feel is unique about my approach is that I feel strongly the newcomer to Painter will have a greatly enhanced experience if they can (ideally) learn in the following order:

How to manage the Painter interface.

Get a good foundation in managing Painter's brush libraries, brush categories, and brush variant .XML files, how each brush variant works, how to make setting adjustments to get special painting effects, how different brush variants work on the various Layer types.

How to use and manage all of the many Layer types and other objects that float above the Painter Canvas (Default Layers, Water Color Layers, Liquid Ink Layers, Reference Layers, Dynamic Plugin Layers, Text Layers, Shapes, and Selections)

How to work with Painter 7 and earlier version User Masks and Layer Visibility Masks and Painter 8 User Alpha Channels and Layer Masks.

How to use options found in the Canvas, Layers, Effects, and Movie main menus.

That sounds pretty dull, eh? Well it's not, because when I teach, it's been in a three month series of 7 classes. Each week is extended to cover two weekends. During each class week, students are provided reading material, suggested outside reading material, and exercises on the first day of the class which is usually Saturday. On the following Wednesday, they're provided two or more lessons in which they can put to practice what they learned in the exercises. There's plenty to do and plenty of room to be creative if the student is ready to forge ahead. I'm available during the class week to answer questions and discuss Painter related topics with students. Those are the weeks I don't get much sleep because my students may live anywhere in the US or outside the US and it's good for me to be around when they're awake and ready to ask questions.


I know, Jet, that there are many more things that haven't been said. So many, in fact, that it would take a year to even begin to say it all. I think if you spend time learning Painter more, and with other serious Painter users, it will all become more clear.

If you're not very familiar with all of this, it's hard to even know what to ask, but do feel free to ask when a specific question pops into your mind.

Okey dokey. My fingers are tired from typing and my eyes are tired from reading so it's time to sign off for now.

Nite folks (unless I get caught up in something interesting).


:)


P.S. I completely forgot to address your question about using filters, tweaks, etc. I teach most things that Painter offers, including its Effects menu options (at the bottom of which Photoshop plugins and other plugin software is listed if the user owns it and locates it in the appropriate folders.. I don't teach Photoshop or other filters/plugins). Painter's Effects include some things that could, I suppose, be considered filters but they are so integral to using Painter well that I doubt many people think of them as filters. Some of them are fairly sophisticated and used well, do not have the look of a filter having been applied.

Why would I teach Painter's Effects? Because they're a part of Painter and using them is fun. Some very lovely effects can be had if they're used appropriately and though the list doesn't seem long, the ways they can be used continues to unfold.

Jet
06-21-2004, 03:54 AM
WOW...my mouth is still open..

Dull ?.. boring ?...whoaa! if i ever think any of the overwhelming stuff you've said here is dull or boring,
......Please step on my toes and slap my forehead with a wacom tablet..! Whamm!!..*ouch!!*...... hey!!..not yet.

I know both authors as i have the WOW book for P7 and Jeremy's tutorials CD.

My questions are a mix of my own questions and my dear friends' from WC, it's a real treat when somebody has real knowledge, that makes words flow endlessly in a way that congruently form an image in our heads as you go on.

Everything was clear and down-to-earth understandable, so much that i can picture your classes will be as easy to understand as well.

i questioned about filters because i use them LOTS, and as i've been questioned so many times it's good to know other answers from more experienced people in the field.

For anyone who has a little knowledge on programming, would agree that any program that can emulate or simulate "situations", - a brush is a situation and the variants will be "switches" that tell the software how to behave and act accordingly.. so we can say every situation is in essence the same as a filter.

Here i agree when you say that if you pick a brush, and tell painter that has to mix the paint in a way that when applied it has to resemble "as painted on rice paper", we are using that filter specifically...so it will be extremely hard or impossible really, to separate what is "natural" or not.

I've been testing the program "The Gimp", and one of the things that i noticed is that when the smudge tool is applied on a bi-colored surface it will tend to "pull" more of the dark color over the lighter hues, whenever i try to smudge a lighter over a darker color is not possible...why?... because it is behaving as in real life...and i did not like to have that kind of limitation in my virtual world or at least have the option to override that, at will..

My point is, that,.. it is exactly that way of thinking that separates sometimes traditional artists from their Digital counterparts. I still believe we can learn very much from each other....

---------------------
About this new Forum:
There is no way, we can tell what is being decided upstairs, neither they would tell, so nobody has to worry of any plot being done behind our backs.
We can witness how long it took to get a Watercolor forum...and more recently the digital manipulation forum, then i don't believe one single poll, will rock the boat hard enough to see any changes in a short term.
Right now the votes are getting very close to level even, and it's always good to know, where we are standing...

Thanks a lot for letting us know a little bit more of you...i guess we all are even more proud -if that were possible-, to have you among us....

Thanks for making WC a better place to be. :) .....Gotta respect a real lady as yourself.

Regards

Chiers
06-21-2004, 03:55 AM
Sherry, same as Graham... -------------

Hmmm, I had to go back and read what I wrote. LOL, I don't have any confusion or questions. Just opinions. I might add also that I have been sketching for over fifty years, and painting for over thirty yrs. I have read many books on art techniques and while I am self taught I feel I know a considerable bit about traditional art techniques, and that is what I base my opinions on when it comes to digital painting. :D

Jin
06-21-2004, 04:12 AM
Jet,

Thanks for your nice post.

I see that you are like a lot of Painter users as you want brushes to behave certain ways and think about why they won't, if the won't, and probably how they might if they could.

*LOL*

I really like writing sentences like the one above that doesn't make much sense or if it does, by the time you figure it out you're dizzy.

Did I say it was time for me to sign off hours ago?

Well this time it's for real.

G'nite all. :)

Jet
06-21-2004, 04:14 AM
I understand Sherry,
maybe you get desperate to deal to brats like us (i am just speaking for me and my friend) and think..i have gone through all that stuff already.....

Well my dear friend, its like motherhood late in life ..and it's no easy task... :p

THe good thing for us (the brats),is that the more experienced ones have to be patient to us.... :D

OK wipe it off---i was just teasing , Sherry..

You don't have to explain a thing, you are a fine artist and a fine lady as well,
and I bow before you in respect and admiration..-read ps-

Regards

Edit--
Jin, we posted at the same time... thanks for the quick reply.
..hey !! you were supposed to be getting some ZZZzzz already..nite nite


ps..Sherry,
I confess, i like to tease the grown ups, just to see them get some color in their faces...yuk, yuk, yuk....

Woof-a-Doof
06-21-2004, 07:13 PM
I debated several days before casting my vote and voicing my opinon. I also waited a 24 hour period to try and collect my thoughts after the responce to the post came down from Jet. I have come to realize that Digital Art, is something many of us are deeply passionate about. Also, in that passion, 2 dimensional text is a limited medium for communication. I think I also realized that I am not as "thick skinned" as I had hoped.

Let me say first, Jet--You are doing a thankless job! You reach out to most, if not all those that post. I watch you encourage those that struggle. I see you actively seeking soulutions to furthur encourage our passions. I see you taking the time to dig up articles and pointing us in directions that offer a plethoria of information. You are a credit to the forum, and those of us that have been in Digital Art, certainly appreciate what you have done for Digital Art as a whole! These are my thoughts!

After reading your repsonce to my post, my first reaction was one of disbelief and shock, I was literally stunned for several hours. I read the thread, I then re-read the thread. I looked for my error, I looked to see if I had based my opion on something I may have misread. I looked to see if my words were not pointing directly at "managment", "people upstairs" or "owner of the site". I was/am satisfied that my words pointed in no other direction. I was/am still baffled. At any rate, this is how I came to hold my opinion---

As the end is approaching i want you to know the real purpose of a separate forum, which i had decided not to reveal earlier, so as not to influence the poll results in any way...The voting is closing up on the 29th. so our leaders will have the result on the 30th,

The votes tend to drift now toward a separate forum, maybe because some more fellow painters from the traditional forums are coming more often. and probably they would feel better if there was a separate forum so they could land right in their element, without having to post their works mixed with the other digital fashions.

Letting us know the "real purpose of a seperate forum" which you "descided not to reveal earlier". The "real purpose" need be told upfront in clear unquestionable detail from the begining. If it is something you (or whoever) did not want to reveal earlier....why was it mentioned at all? The fact that it was "revealed" eludes to the idea that something was hidden...people hate to find out something was hidden.

"The votes tend to drift now toward a separate forum"......well, no. As of the time I voted, the vote was 15 in favor of the new forum and 20 opposed to new forum. My vote made it 16 in favor. Mathmatically, the votes clearly show that those oppossed to the new forum lead in the poll.

Those two factors lead to the following statement---

I get the feeling the sub-forum has already been planned and is soon to be implemented. I appreciate the idea of Democracy, but think the responcibility of structuring the site, falls on the owner of the site.


When I relook at the above quote, I think what I most regret is the first sentence and first half of the second sentence. I only wish I had used better words or taken more time to articulate my thought in a manner that would not have brought insult to one I respect. Jet Liera

As mentioned above, 2 dimensional text is a limited medium for communication. Typed words can't convey meaing and intent accurately enough for me at times (ok, most times). That first sentence and second half of the sentence could have just as easlily been said simply, from a real life situation.

I own my own web site. I descide it's time to change. I want to show off all new work, and archive older work. I have a dilema! I do work with a neighborhood family center. I want to introduce a Digital Art Guild as a program for kids 16-21. Sometimes, not often, I will do nudes and have posted them on my web site. The pickle is...The images are "nude" and I am proposing a program for "kids"...Should I post "nudes" or not post "nudes" on my web site. Although I do not take polls on my web site, I review my "web stats". My web stats show me that my "nudes" get considerable traffic over other works. It is my web site. I will get all kinds of information regarding whats what on the site. Ultimately, I descide how it is set up. I have the numbers to support the idea of revamping my nudes and add more! But, I want this propsed program to be beyond reproach, so when I refer a VIP from a Child Services founding source, nudity can be discussed, but not thrown in thier face. So, on my new version of my web site, thier will be no "nudes". The statistics showed me that my audience was begining to hit the "nudes" strongly. I didnt make my descion based on numbers. But I did want the numbers before I made the "final" descion, even though it was already made.


you are free to get all the feelings you like , only is irresponsable to suggest that i or the management are playing games, or wasting your time, and the decisions are already have been made for you.
This type of suppositions are dangerous for any relationship.
Everyone who has replied, did so with no assumptions, as they don't have a place in any assertive conversation; they are misleading and tendentious, hard to confront and so easy to avoid responsabilty for their real meaning.

Assumptions are accusations without "guilt", and i'd rather
that when addressed to any of my acts no assumptions were used.

I have deep respect for each and every one of the members, and i've been trying to encourage respect and confidence among members as well, so, i frankly don't deserve to be be questioned by an absurd assumption, with no solid ground, no actual evidence nor former behavior that could back you up in any case.



I took the liberty of contributing my opinion, as that was an option. I am truely sorry that my opinion affected you to the degree it did. I only wish that it was recieved with the intention inwhich it was meant. I wish I had had the eloquence and abiltity to articulate what JIN said below:



I too have to say that it did appear to me that the decision has been made to open a new forum for digital painting, if it was not made earlier, at least by now, well before the end of this month when the poll is to be closed.

This is not an assumption. It's just how it appears, considering that the poll is not closed, more who have voted have voted "no", and we've already been given the reasoning behind the apparently soon to be made decision. As it's been explained to us, one of the reasons, if not the main reason, is to attract traditional media painters. It occurs to me to ask, were WetCanvas' traditional painters asked to vote in this poll too? If the reasoning is to attract them, it would seem appropriate for them to be included in the voting.

Since it's been stated here that there is great respect for all members, I trust that my comments will also be treated with thoughtfulness, courtesy, and respect.. and that they'll be considered if not before a decision is made to create a new forum for digital painting, at least after that project is underway.


I am reminded of someting I was told once. What is said is not so important as how it is said..
Example 1) Man to a Woman: "You have a face that can stop the hands of all time."
Example 2) Man to the same Woman: "You have a face that can stop a clock."
Both examples essentially say the same thing, but will have different consequences. In this occasion, I have shown Example 2....I certainly could have said it differently. (maybe as a result, treated differently?)

And Jet, regarding you, I am reminded of another story. A monk was resting beneath a tree along side of a path. Shortly after he layed his body down, two women of the village made thier way to fetch water. Seeing the monk, one of them remarked..."Oh, how sad, the monk has no pillow on which to rest his head" As the women continued thier quest, the monk pulled up a satchel and placed it beneath his head. The women soon returned and upon seeing the satchel beneath the monks head the burst into laughter. Horrified the monk heard one of the women giggle, "What would any good monk ever need a pillow for?"

You are in an often thankless position Jet. But what you do is good, and you are good at what you do. It would be difficult for me to be in your shoes, and I feel for ya. I know it might appear that I am talking out of both sides of my mouth Jet, but if there is any frustration on my end, it is not directed at you. You are kind of like the hall monitor we had back in school. If the kids get out of control, the hall monitor is not to blame, but the principal and the other students. Your just trying to do a good job, to be a good artist, and a friend....but often you get the sh*tty end of the stick.

What more can I say... I am sorry that your angered at me! I hope that this post illustrates to those who read, that I no way think that Jet Liera is part of any conspiracy regarding the formation of a New Forum. I dont think that now, I did not think that prior to my earlier post. I almost wish I would have just voted and kept my mouth shut.

Jet
06-21-2004, 07:26 PM
Too much verbose
------------------------

Would you like to have this forum for posting our Mixed Digital Art renditions ?.

-Plus adding a sub-forum, titled "Digital Painting" exclusively for that purpose-

*note: Digital manipulations forum to be left untouched and remains independent with its own rules.

Please vote as soon as possible, for our leaders can hear our opinions on the subject.

Regards
----------------

i guess that's direct and clear, for anyone to understand what's going to happen with your vote !!

i won't try to make it easier to understand , Sorry, no bite !........ http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Apr-2004/27782-eusa_silenced.gif

janettbea
06-23-2004, 10:27 PM
Hi All-- I voted 'yes' on the new forum early on and was glad I did it, and if there is another good reason to add the new subforum I am doubly glad.

You know like many of you, I belong to other wc art forums and it doesn't bother me a bit if several sub forums exist under the same heading--for instance the water color subforums. ..When I am pressed for time , the different subforums enable me to more quickly find information I'm looking for.I can always read the other subforums at my leisure when I have more time at my disposal.

This is a great forum, and you're a bunch of lovely generous people. That's the most important thing to me. No matter how many subforums digital art may have... :)


Janet B.

Jet
06-25-2004, 12:09 AM
lol, I just found the subforums, I've lurked here half a year and never saw them before. Somebody needs to make these things more prominant, I'm sure I am not the only one missing these forums. :D
Still no pottery forum tho :crying:

You're right about that..
....Guides are the ones most indicated for promoting thieir based-sites but anyone can do the same just with a little link-line at the signature of everyone's post.....
....As you can see mine has a link to DAF and Michael has one to the Digi Manips Forum as well.
It's like a sticker on your car that says i'm proud of "XX" state, only this sticker is a warp point so visitors can land safely there.

In Wet Canvas we appreciate your ideas very much, and i have seen that same complaint/request 100s of times before, so i'll take it as my next project exposing the problem, together with the probable solutions and place it on queue, see how it goes...

Thanks for your ideas..

*- I'll keep you all posted of any advances on the matter..

Regards
:cool:

Michael
06-25-2004, 02:01 PM
just call me a "Surreal Bumpersticker". :D

CrystalSky
06-25-2004, 10:52 PM
UUUUHhhhhh sub-forum??????? :confused: no idea--so if I use the smudge tool in a digital painting its really a photo manip--oohhhh me feel like cave woman...

Jet
06-25-2004, 11:00 PM
UUUUHhhhhh sub-forum??????? :confused: no idea--so if I use the smudge tool in a digital painting its really a photo manip--oohhhh me feel like cave woman...

If you use the smudge tool on a digital painting certainly not....but
.......If you use the smudge tool on a photograph, sure is a photo manip. !!

I believe the term "manip" causes a lot of confusion, i like to use "alteration" as a more accurate and less intrusive word.

It's my perception that we tend to associate manipulation with social behavior and it feels as being low and dishonest.
That's how i have perceived it all along for many years and i guess that more than one could feel that same way too.

Thanks for asking

Regards

Jet
06-25-2004, 11:55 PM
Some members have expressed their concerns here, while others have PMed me with some questions, all of them toward the same topic, this is the creation of a new sub-forum.

I was thinking that it depends on how you get used to working.
My first serious experience with forums was at this small site in size but great in many aspects, greater than many big large sites.

There is a system and there is order and control and the curious thing about this site is that there are no guides nor moderators...everything is run by ONE WOMAN !!!
Next is just a brief example of their forum distribution, everything is in its own place, neat and clean.
I imagine this, as the drawers in my closet, what would it be like if i had just one BIG drawer named "clothes"?
And everything was being thrown inside because it's easier to find everything in one place...i'll try that sometime.. :rolleyes:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jun-2004/27782-class1.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jun-2004/27782-class2.jpg

You can pay a visit to The INN (http://www.innographx.com/forum/) and look around, a nice place where many of our members go and post there too.

After voting here she liked the idea, she went to her own site and added extra forums for hosting new types of art...
...........and these are...yep ! you guessed right...smart girl , i must add !!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/26-Jun-2004/27782-class3.jpg

...................
:cool:

Cronious
06-28-2004, 07:08 AM
I voted No. But after looking at how well the whole thing is working at the INN I would change my vote to YES............ bet I can't now :(

The other reason is that because I don't have enough time on my hands at the moment I am missing so many good posts here. If things were divided more I would probably miss less and learn more.

Just another 2 cents worth.

kptad2
06-28-2004, 11:55 AM
i still say no... i have to say that i have a hard enough time as it is placing my work in with some of us here. not just here in digital but i feel for me that if there are many sub forums .. i will definetly get lost in the mix of things.. as might have guessed by no i voted no.. so if we have all these extras we will have a classification for each piece ok peopel may begin to say this doesnt belong here ..blah blah .. now that might make some of us feel like we may not be good enough and that some are better than others. maybe it might just me who feels that may happen.. so why not juts leave it as is.. a tips tutes forum may be useful.. for particual programs..... but it as far as im concerned

Jet
06-28-2004, 12:56 PM
Hi Clare,
:( sorry , it's not possible to change your vote, but the important thing is that you have a new point of view....
.... and that's all that matters !! :)

The big difference here is that you have lived the experience at the INN and you have now a clear understanding how it works;..I felt that too when i went back to the INN and saw the different categories, and everytime i changed to another category, i knew what i was expecting...
..one thread after another as clockwork, i didn't see any complaints or crossposting, it's a neat place....

I guess, you've got to live that experience to understand the whole meaning of the idea...let's wait...and time will tell.. :cool:

Kim, hi !
Thanks for your opinions...and about your concerns, no need to worry as there's no open comparison between techniques, i guess the only comparisons are at personal level, as i compare my work against Joel's and i know at once where my work is standing :mad: , but i can't compare mine against woof's 3D works, that'd be the proverbial oranges and apples issue.

All works are welcome and if any help is needed there are many experts in the field who can assist any time, thank god.. :angel:

Having fun is in !

Regards

Chiers
06-28-2004, 01:18 PM
As most know I voted no, and if I could vote again I would still vote no. In my opinion diversity keeps a forum interesting. Breaking it up into small pieces just doesn't make any sense for digital art, again, in my opinion. I think you will find that the result in the long run will be less and less people participating. Especially the "painters".

People participate in forums like this to show off what they have done and to get constructive ideas. They participate in order to learn and see what others are doing. Some are here just for the comradery (?), which is fine but others are here for that...but more. I truly hate to see the digital painters shuffled off to buffalo for the sake of another digital maipulation forum, which all the blarney aside is what this amounts to. Again, in my opinion.

And many people incorperate many type of digital art into one painting. Whats next? How many separate forums will be needed so keep us all segragated? And are we so feeble minded that we need to be segragated?

I think this will have the effect of driving away digital painters more than it will attract. I see forums all over the net that are broken up in that manner and the posts are usually few and far between.

And last, but not least, this forum has been doing just fine the way it was, in my opinion. :D Which at this point doesnt' mean much as I see the votes have all of the sudden swung to the other side.

Jet
06-28-2004, 01:37 PM
Sherry,
i'm glad that you brought the topic...
About the segregation 'implications', it would be nice to ask members at the INN if they feel that way, maybe it would make an interesting topic there and the results could bring some light to your assumptions, and to us all members here as well.

Back to WC...
..if you go back in time searching through threads, you'll be able to prove the fact that the percentage of paintings being posted nowadays, is much lower than a few months ago ..

...does it prove anything ? ...can it be directly connected to some event ?..
---i don't know, but i need desperately help on those numbers and it would be nice if you could find some facts on that matter.

If you go for it...Thanks...We'll compare notes later on !!

Regards

ps-
...is it going to rain tomorrow..?-mmhhmm! -that's the future -i let the man upstairs deal with that !... :angel:

Chiers
06-28-2004, 02:22 PM
Hee hee Jet....First.....relax and take a couple deep breathes.

Okay,
About the segregation 'implications',

What implications?? If you take one group, and make two groups is that not dividing/separating/segregating?

..if you go back in time searching through threads, you'll be able to prove the fact that the percentage of paintings being posted nowadays, is much lower than a few months ago ..

Actually it seems to me that the percentage of paintings has been the same, if not higher. The percentage of manipulations/filter art has increased. And that could be because some people found out that it was okay to post them here. I even remember when you started posting and didn't think you were in the right place. LOL, I certainly don't however intend to go back over all the posts with the intent to prove anything.


..It's a very noble task to offer some help on those numbers !!

HUH?



I imagine this, as the drawers in my closet, what would it be like if i had just one BIG drawer named "clothes"? And everything was being thrown inside because it's easier to find everything in one place...

And then imagine that you have separate drawers each for white socks, tube socks, dress socks, blue shirts, brown shirts, white shirts....well, you get the idea. Hope ya got a might big dresser. LOL

And lastly.....just sharing ideas and opinions here. :D

Jin
06-28-2004, 03:06 PM
I'm with Sherry and others who voted "no", as everyone who's read my posts already knows.

If the spirit were willing, which it isn't at the moment, I could probably list 30 different sub forums just to begin to accommodate all the ways digital art is created, and just in Painter alone.

I could also list quite a number of reasons why many of my own pieces would not fit into the proposed and existing forums. Though it's said that all art is accepted and welcomed, I keep getting the sense that various definitions of what each forum is for, will in themselves exclude a lot of digital art.

Frankly, I have to say that Wet Canvas, though certainly a fascinating undertaking filled with much valuable information, has been an exhausting site to visit over the time I've known of it.

There's too much to take in, unless one narrows down to just a very small handful of forums. This I've done recently, the Digital Art forum being the single forum at which I've spent any time reading and posting. Still, so much discussion has gone on about the subject of sub forums and what kinds of digital art go where that it's becoming less and less enjoyable. Of course I can choose not to continue reading those threads, but they're active and it's clear the discussion is going on. It's also clear that members are concerned about it.

Again, what I observe is that there's too little understanding of what can go into creating a piece of digital art. With too little understanding.. it's.. well.. understandable that some will think it can be subdivided easily and simply.

It can't, not without leaving a lot out in the cold (I don't mean people, I mean the art they create).

Of course, as has been said before, no one needs to have their art left out in the cold, as there are many other places on the Web where there's not so much focus on exactly what kinds of images may be shared in each forum and exactly how each image was created down to the last niggle (the really last niggle not even being known or understood by many who discuss the subject).

In other words, there's enough openness and freedom for a member to feel quite at home and comfortable sharing whatever kinds of images they create (barring the obvious, pornography or otherwise extremely offensive or those that involve copyright infringement) given the choice of just a few forums covering general categories. In fact, I doubt many members even think much about it. They just enjoy sharing and seeing what other artists share... and learning all the while.

Some general division of art is sensible. That's already been done and then some.

It's not as if I have nothing to do. What am I spending all this time on a subject like this for?

Must be nuts, I guess. :D

Peace,


Jinny
http://www.pixelalley.com/painterforum-indepth/bldng-blks-balls-transp.gif

Jet
07-02-2004, 03:23 AM
-A new member's opinion -

I've lurked around the forums for 6 months and didn't know about the photomanip. forum until recently, never even saw it cause I would stop and read the digital art forum because digital photomanip is a digital art and has very little to do with taking pictures with a camera. The camera is just the first step and I don't have to be very artistic with the photo cause all I need is a clear detailed picture of the subject because the art stuff is going to happen on screen not in the lens. Never even occurred to me to look in the photography forum for stuff about digital manipulation. In school the digital imaging class took place in the graphic lab not the photo lab, seems strange that you guys separate them, in most cases the digital manipulator's tools have much more in common with the digital painter than your traditional photographer. Is there a way to link it to the digital art forum as a subcategory to it as well as the photography forum because I missed on a half a year of enjoyment of reading the photomanip category because I was looking in the wrong place for that kind of work . Thanks

DITTO !!

Read Original Thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197652)

Chiers
07-04-2004, 12:48 PM
Hello Jet and happy 4th to you too.

Okay, first let me explain that I don't do the P.M. stuff when it concerns anything about the forums/groups or the other members, so I am responding to your P.M. here. It's just a personal thing and think that whatever I have to say about the forums/groups should be out in the open. Prevents a lot of he said, she said. LOL

You mentioned in you PM that you ran across something I wrote that you felt the same about but I have no idea what it was I wrote that you are talking about. You can however feel free to ask me about it in public. LOL, or maybe you did, I must admitt I was a bit confused by your P.M. but it doesn't take much to do that for me these days. :D

As far as the sudden reversal in the poll.....well yes I did notice and thats as far as I will comment about it.

Concerning the person you inquired about, I have no idea but feel even if I did that he would be the one to ask, not me.

It's my feeling that the increase coming from of digital manipulaters/? was most likely because perhaps someone? had invited them to this forum. It there has been lack of responce to that type of art in the past I don't feel it's because they were being shunned but rather because if one isn't into that kind of thing they probably don't know what to say about it. We all like different things and speaking for myself I won't comment in most cases about art that does nothing for me. I fully realize that what I do certainly doesn't turn on everyones art buttons either.

This is also a time of year when posting seems to drop off in most forums/groups. I certainly haven't been doing a lot of art lately.

If you have any more questions for me feel free to ask me here. :D

TampaDan
07-06-2004, 09:26 AM
Being a newcomer, I don't really want to get too involved with this subject, not knowing the history, etc. But I'd like to add my view just as an FYI.

Photography is my primary creative outlet. When I first joined I only visited the Photography forums and saw immediately that they had one exclusively for digital manipulations. Other web sites I frequent refer to this as "PhotoArt." As I have an interest in PhotoArt, I started posting some of my work, and participating in some of the threads. It wasn't until a week or so later that I checked out the Digital Art forum.

To me "Digital Art" refers to vector-based illustrations/paintings (Adobe Illustrator or CorelDraw) or 3D programs.

So, I find myself hanging out exclusively in the Photography section, not the Digital Art section, when it comes to photo manipulations.

[/.02]

ozeki999
07-06-2004, 11:49 AM
The poll is closed? CLOSED?!

No, I'm sorry, but the poll is most certainly not closed.
A digital painting forum would be too perfect for words!
I cant think of anything better suited to what I want to learn.

So, If the poll is in fact closed and the results are negative, then we'll simply have to resort to the time proven technologies for creating change within human relationships.

Tell me;
Where do we lobby?
Who can we shmooz?
Which of the decission makers are weak-kneed enough to bully?
And most importantly,
What is the proper p.o. box to mail the bribe money too?

I'm going to need these ansewrs right away!
I've got a lot of painting questions to ask!

PLEASE DONT GIVE UP ON THIS IDEA YET!

Chiers
07-06-2004, 12:32 PM
I thought it was odd to have two P.M.s in two days when I usually get none.

Oz the digital art forum IS a digital painting/digital art forum combined....

pstewart
07-23-2004, 04:51 AM
I just found this thread today. I see Jorge had posted screenshots of my site about the time I was first setting up a digital arts forum. The reason I did it was at the request of my dear friend and long time online art buddy, Amanda. She was getting into pure digital art and no longer interested in photo art, so rather than lose her delightful presence and wonderful humor, I filled the request and made a new category. We did a bit of experimenting before settling on these categories, which have changed since posted here weeks ago:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/23-Jul-2004/23600-digart-forums.jpg

The only difference now between #1 and #2 is whether or not the entire work is from scratch, with no tracing/cloning etc. as an aid. So, no matter what you do to a picture after painting/drawing it, and no matter what digital programs or digital media you use, an original is an original, and belongs in category #1. All other digital art goes into category #2, even if you only traced an outline over a photo...still not ALL your own work. (Reference photos are fine, however.) This split category separates the true artists from the folks, like myself, who still rely on a photo to position features, shading, and colors.

Now we first had, and still have, the Photo Art category. It's different from the digital art #2 forum in that usually, mostly in fact, folks do little or no work with hand tools, except for the lasso and such. The picture is artified mainly with filters, blend modes, and sometimes plug-ins that create certain effects. Seldom if ever does a person use just one filter or plug-in...the goal is to become more sophisticated in use of modes and filters to create a wide variety of looks. Hand work with brushes is a part of some methods, such as Steve's watercolor mask method and so on, but brushes aren't necessary and many folks never use them at all.

Our Photo Art forum is what you call "digital manipulations" here. I don't like that term because, in my mind, manipulating a photo means taking it apart and changing it in pieces, not as a whole.

We do have a Manipulation forum as well, and it's for combining given photos in creative and fun ways, with open-ended goals, such as putting one head on someone else's body, or finding a way to incorporate a penguin and three other unrelated items into one image, etc. Final results are usually amusing, and go off in all directions.

Our Design forum is different from our Manip forum in that the design is the main goal, not just manipulating photos and pieces of photos. They may of course get chopped up in the process, but it's the design that matters here...how your design fits the theme of the specific challenge. For example, this time the goal is to create a fitting and attractive poster for an entertainment event. By the way, the Design forum is another which was requested by a member.

Some of these forums are used less than others, but just about everyone finds something they like to do. So, with a lot of different categories, folks find a niche easily. Retouching and Restoration forums are separate too, and there's a reason for that, which is apparent if you do it much. Some folks prefer one to the other. I love retouching but hate restoration, for example.

Pardon my rambling, but since my forum was used here as an example, I wanted to explain that it is not just cluttered with a lot of forums that are too specific. It works. It works well. We've had few if any problems with folks getting confused by too many forums. On the contrary, one reason we have so many is that folks kept asking for them! And they're free, so why not? I obliged!

I like WC, especially the digital arts forum, because I can really learn a lot here. So many excellent artists. Really inspirational, although pretty humbling too! I must agree with others here who have said that Digital Manip (Photo Art) doesn't really belong in Photography. Taking pics and doing things to pics later are too wayyyy different things!

The Dig Manip forum here should have a place of its own, in my opinion. Filter treatments, no matter how complex and impressive (and they really can be when done well!) are not digital art...no digital brushes touch the screen, little or no actual painting/drawing muscles or talent are used. And working FROM photos is not shooting photos. It must stand alone IMO, and really deserves its own place in the list.

Yako
07-23-2004, 05:40 AM
I agree with Elvira about creating a forum with tips and techniques, tutorials related to digital software and another with all the digital paintings and photo manips.

It would be really nice that, for example, in the first forum there's something like an ordered list of tutorials (i've seen that in Arlene's color pencil forum and it's very useful).

And also... a section with things like recommended digital softwares, user's comments on regards to them. And....perhaps a section of comments about magazines, books, publications from the users.

Jin
07-23-2004, 06:54 PM
Hi everyone,

I'm posting this message as it pertains to the discussion of what methods may be used in creating an image or painting that will allow that image or painting to be shared in a certain forum and whether or not a forum will be created for a specific kind of work, done in specific ways. Knowledge can't hurt when making these decisions.

Below is a copy of a message I posted several months back on my own message board, TutorAlley Forums, as the topic of tracing in preparation for painting comes up so often. Some links in my quoted message have been removed as they no longer work, unfortunately. However, I've added more links below the quote, one of which is to a very informative and interesting page (you'll see which one that is, below).

The subject arises, sometimes as a debate over whether it's a legitimate way of working, sometimes as an interesting and informative discussion. Many of us already know it is, and has been, a quite legitimate way of working, used by great artists for centuries, and it made them not a bit less true artists.

After visiting these sites, or even if you don't, maybe you can tell us whether or not you think Leonardo da Vinci, Johannes Vermeer, 19th-century American painter Thomas Eakins, and others who used these devices were true artists.


Great Artists' Use of Optics and Tracing Over the Centuries

The subject of tracing to prepare for a painting has come up often in the Painter community and elsewhere, both online and offline... for a long time. Some feel it's "cheating". Others understand it's an aid, another tool among many that have been used by artists over many centures.

Some sites you might find interesting and informative:

"Opticality" in Early Renaissance painting: Smoke... or mirrors? - This page is no longer available.

Optics and Renaissance Painting - Stanford University (http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~stork/Art216A.html)

Vermeer's Camera, Uncovering the truth behind the masterpieces (http://www.vermeerscamera.co.uk/home.htm)

Traced Art? - Science Evidence Suggests Artists of Many Ages Traced Their Works (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/art_clues011204.html)

Art and tech: an intimate, early mix - Edit: This page is no longer available.

Hope you enjoy the trip and come back inspired and ready to create another wonderful piece of art, then share it with us.

:)


On the following page....

The Camera Obscura : Aristotle to Zahn (http://www.acmi.net.au/AIC/CAMERA_OBSCURA.html)

.... full of fascinating names, images, and information, among other interesting and familiar names like Aristotle, you'll find a number of old masters' names mentioned in relation to the use of camera obscura as an aid in painting. Some are accompanied by quotes from these artists. - Leonardo da Vinci (1452 - 1519), Canaletto (1697- 1768), Jan Vermeer (1632-1675) often called Vermeer van Delft to distinguish him from an earlier Jan Vermeer, Joshua Reynolds (1723-1792), Paul Sandby (1725-1809). There are also quotes from scientists, writers, mathematicians and others that relate to this subject. If you don't read any other pages linked in this message, the one linked above would be a good one to spend some time reading. It's long, but worth the time if you're interested in painting either traditionally or digitally and open to using tools that have been used for many centuries by fine artists, true artists.


Other sites related to using tracing as an aid and preparation for painting:

Camera Lucida (http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/C.html#anchor1596553)

The Magic Mirror of Life: an appreciation of the camera obscura (http://brightbytes.com/cosite/what.html)

Engines of Our Ingenuity = Camera Obscura (http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi124.htm)

Definition of Camera Obscura (http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/C.html#anchor1596887)


I hope you'll will enjoy these pages and they'll open your mind to understanding and using some of the tools and methods true artists have used for centuries and still do use.
.
.
.

Jet
08-23-2004, 04:33 PM
Thanks for the links Jin;
Those are very interesting facts and insights indeed..

Just for the record , let's not get confused here...
All these artists knew how to draw and how to paint, and they used these 'aides' for saving time...
It's very different when one uses them as tools or use them as crutches...

For example Michelangelo, used the grid method for accurately enlarging "his" Freehand drawing onto the chapel's ceiling....
He didn't trace or grid from anyone else's drawing...

If we know how to draw, tracing or gridding won't hurt, but if we don't know how to draw, tracing won't help.
When the time comes and we have to draw "Live", tracing won't help at all....

So, the great artists did it, but they knew how to do it without it too, maybe they needed more time and made more mistakes, then they used it as an aid...

So basically that was the reason for the new forum, just as the 2 digital art forums at the INN...
Forum 1 -is for those who did their own drawings, raw ability and talent.. from here we use any filter or plugin thereafter.
Forum 2 -is for those who use grid, trace, photo paintover, and everything else that we know the result would've been quite different if we hadn't used these aides....

It's very easy and we all know our actual abilities and knowledge, it's all about being honest, and post where it really belongs..

Very Fine Articles,they really are food for thought..Thanks Jin..

Regards

SoniKalien
08-23-2004, 04:53 PM
Does it really matter which road you took to get to the shops?

As long as the final result is as desired, then what matters how you did it? The thing with artists is they use their own styles, methods etc, and if tracing works, then what the hell. Whats the big deal?

Jin
08-23-2004, 06:01 PM
Jet,

Not sure why I felt the need to respond, but here goes anyway.

It seems, reading your post, that at least part of the decision as to where a piece "belongs" is based on the assumption that the artist is a beginner, who doesn't know how to draw.

What about the artist who does know how to draw and chooses to trace, just as the masters did?

(Who's to say, by the way, that the great masters' students were not taught to trace, too, as **a part** of their apprenticeship?)

It's also a bit offensive to come to a forum and hear that it's "all about being honest". That implies that some are not honest and....

What does it matter anyway? Whose business is it if someone isn't honest about their own work, as long as they're not posting someone else's work and claiming it as their own, or posting it without the creator's permission?

If the artist is not being honest about how they work, they're fooling no one but themselves.

Anyone with an experienced eye can see if the artist has talent and skill, no matter how that artist may talk about their skills and talents or "wannabe" skilled and talented and buddy up with those who have real skill and talent.

Most really creative, talented, and skilled people don't like being controlled and herded, as if they had no sense of their own.

As SoniKalien asks, "As long as the final result is as desired, then what matters how you did it?"

For beginners, those who don't know how to draw and paint, and rely on filters and other aides to come up with something more or less pleasant to look at, and also may not have a lot of knowledge about traditional media techniques, digital media techniques, and/or their software specifically....

It may be, and understandably, reassuring to them to be told exactly what detailed processes used in their artwork will qualify it to be shown in a particular place.

Again, for more experienced artists, those definitions/restrictions are too limited in their scope to be realistic or workable and can tend to discourage the experienced artist from even bothering to sort out where their work can be shared, if in fact it meets the requirements at all.

It should be, in my opinion, all about learning and sharing, and that should be the only reason for an artist to explain how they did something.. to share techniques so other artists can learn. If the site is intended to be a learning environment, it would behoove that site to encourage experienced, skilled, and talented artists to share their work.

Not a big problem, however, as there are plenty of other places to share work. It's only a problem for the site where these restrictions discourage rather than encourage participation by the widest possible range of artists.

Off to do more pressing things now... thanks for listenin'.

Jet
08-23-2004, 06:15 PM
Edited-
Jin, please read what i have written...i wrote very brief clear, and i haven't posted any double meanings...
It is not offensive in any way what i have written....there is nothing to be assumed in my writings, i write very direct and to the point....
and please don't put extra words in my writings that i haven't written...

I haven't written to you but thanks and grateful words, so i don't deserve your offensive "translation" at all.

I can answer anything that hasn't been clear enough , as it is intended in the following text, but i had to edit this peaceful reply to respond to your assumptions

I don't see any reasons why you have to reply in a harsh manner everytime i post something, maybe there's something i did and i don't remember, but this is getting a little boring to say the least.

I didn't say anything that could've caused this reaction and this type of nonsense assumptions, which i feel are rude, completely unnecessary, and certainly out of place..

There's no anger nor bitterness, anywhere in my words, against you or anyone else, so i ask the same treatment back...

I will assume you haven't said those things, for keeping peace in this forum..

**********************************
Sonik,
I was speaking for the purpose that the new forum (what this poll is about) was intended for...and i explained what was the purpose of these 2 new forums at Innographx where i, and many friends are members too...

I didn't say anything else, for the same reason....

But yes it makes a difference, that is called degree of expertise..there are many painters that know how to paint , and not how to draw, needless to say, they don't assist to the "plain aire" sessions where you have to draw or paint directly from nature in a certain time span....

I don't recall the order they teach that in art school, but there is a certain order, where you are learning all the different traits that make you an all round artist...

For example i mostly work from photographs, to do my paintovers and pixel pushing stuff and i love it...but i have to recognize what i am skipping by this procedure...
By doing it this way, i don't have to worry about, drawing, that is shapes, proportion, direction, perspective, tonal values, color, shading, highlites ...
So, i am so aware of this when i have to draw a hand or an ear that it is not in the original photograph and i feel embarassed to ask the client for a photograph with his left ear (this is the least to worry about), but a hand or foot; because he thinks i know that basic stuff already and i will draw it if i need to...

All those little things that i have experienced have led me to start learning the basics, which i thought it was everybody else's interest as well...I am really grateful for the digital magic, as it really has helped me to learn faster and easier than ever before....I had gone in and out of art classes more than 10 times , i just got too frustrated by my slow results...
So this all changed when i can cheat by doing it digitally, and at the same time it's like a rehearsal, after having done it for thousands of times, i feel easier to learn ... right now i'm learning how to draw with graphite and charcoal, and it is so hard that sometimes i get stuck and scan my work and continue in PhotoShop,....so i know how much i know and so much i need to learn still...
For me the digital background has given me many satisfactions, nevertheless i take it as a simulator same as my flght simulator...i can take a plane and do whatever while on the air, but i don' take off or land it...i learned in MS flight Sim all the instruments and flaps n' wind and bla bla... but i need to get some classes and learn the up and down stuff...no faking or cheating here...

I see many similarities with my artistic abilities so far...but i am willing to learn how to do it freehand, just so i can feel that i can do it anytime anywhere without any help, then it will be my choice if i use griding, tracing, or manipulating a picture.....I have been said millions of times that knowing all these traits is what makes a real artist, and i haven't had any valid arguments for thinking the opposite.

Right now i am posting at the drawing and sketching forum, and at everywork i do i post the procedure..
There's a weekend drawing event too, where all media is allowed , i tell them how much i did digital and how much i did freehand....
Honesty is welcomed everywhere, and problems have arised when some digital artists have misled people into believing they did all the work freehand, which i feel is a very foolish attitude to begin with, as people want to know how the work has been done, no reason for lying really....

A real art piece can result by wisely and tastefully manipullating a photograph, as i have been doing since my beginnings and i proudly state my procedures, one needs to know what to use, how much and when to stop, and the result can be excellent..so why do some people lie about the procedure...or worse, give no clues at all !!!

If its a beautiful piece and people is praising your work, it is so satisfying to say: I got that result by digitally enhancing this photograph in PhotoShop and Painter using filters, and most of all, my skills and taste !!...once you say that, there will be no way anybody will say you're a fake, but recognize your abilities in digital arts...there's nothing else to add, and if that person has any problem with that, well, it is his/her problem if they are not capable of doing a decent job, not even when having the advantage of starting from a photograph.

People who criticize this type of work, are the ones who haven't been able to do it, and just speak out of frustration....they are bitter, and jealous and there's nothing that you -or anyone- can do about it...just let it go...

As we see here, there are many "scenes" from the same 'movie' , and we have to know how to deal with every one of them, honestly and open minded, give them the special place they deserve, know where we stand, and where the others stand too, that way we all respect the other's position at all times.


Kind Regards

Jin
08-23-2004, 09:43 PM
Jet,

Take it easy. When you have time, and feel better, please read my post again.

In my second paragraph, I did say "It seems".. which it did.. to me, though it might not to anyone else.

I made no assumptions and read nothing into your words.

When I used quotes, they were to actually quote your words (i.e. "belongs" and "all about being honest") or to use them with the frequently used slang word "wannabe" since that's not proper English.

What I did do was to state my own thoughts in response to your post and many others made in this thread.

I'm sorry you took offense. It doesn't feel good to be offended.

I've reread my post and can't find anything to apologize for or anything that was rude, but I guess it's impossible to know how each person will take what we write, isn't it?


Cheers,

Jet
08-23-2004, 09:56 PM
It's clear as water

It's also a bit offensive to come to a forum and hear that it's "all about being honest". That implies that some are not honest and....

if by hearing this , you are rating my words as offensive...?

No ifs or buts... i am writing directly to the point...and you're thinking always tilted to the foul side...thinking about, seeming, likely...

Oh ! and i didn't ask for apologies, -one more for the road-.....see ?

...But i can see the confusion will be persistent, so as a solution...

if i am not talking about you, please just don't address your commments to me and that's it... period

SoniKalien
08-24-2004, 05:46 AM
rah rah rah rah rah

SoniKalien throws a bucket of water around

get back to your painting!

Jin
08-24-2004, 11:53 PM
SoniKalien,

Oh! I love a sudden shower! :D

Best suggestion yet.

Thanks, :)

fugitive
08-25-2004, 05:53 AM
We already have one for manips, but it's ignored by some. We have this one for digital art, i.e. painting. I do belieive they should be separate, as I have no interest in manipulations.

digital_art_lady
08-25-2004, 10:27 AM
I Vote YES!

As simple as that...

Jet
07-28-2006, 09:50 PM
Thanks to those members for sending happy and congrats e-mails; I really appreciate them highly...
-----------
It all started in June 2004, with a simple question and a poll :
Do you think is time for a sub-forum exclusively for Digital Painting (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194032&highlight=forum)

Strangely enough, this idea was inmediately rejected, and voted against, by most of the "advanced" digital artists; In contrast, most beginners were openly in favor to having a new forum for digital paintings.

In my life, being put down and criticized, due to expressing a new idea, doesn't come strange to me, as I know that, many of these ideas are just a little bit ahead of its time, and people is not -yet- ready for them.
But, it's only a matter of letting it go, and WAIT....and wait, until people's minds are ready for the 'novel' concept, and finally "make sense" in their reality....
According to the following quote...
[ An idea whose time has come is stronger than all the armies in the world ]-Victor Hugo.
-----------------
As we can see now, those members that were against my idea, are today -not only-, happily attending and posting, but even enforcing my idea by moderating the forum I dreamed of, 2 years ago: Painters Alley (Digital Painting Forum). (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=341) and that makes it all worthwhile.

***The result of this poll has been useful ***
:thumbsup:..Thanks a ton...:grouphug: ... to all, who believed, and finally made it possible...:clap:

Kind Regards
******
THE END...:cool:
******

Skinny
07-28-2006, 10:01 PM
Hello, Jet! :wave: Where have you been? :p

Jet
07-28-2006, 10:07 PM
Hey Skinny!!:wave:

I have been too busy in 'real life', and have been traveling a lot..coming close to your HQ a couple of times ...:thumbsup: already..

Just getting back and acquainted with the new stuff al-round...:p

Regards
:cool:

Skinny
07-28-2006, 11:17 PM
Well, it's great to see you posting, Jet! Take care.

Chiers
07-29-2006, 02:56 AM
Well well, long time no see jet! I can tell already you are the same ole Jet.

Actually, the painters alley was Joels idea. At the time of this poll, my goodness, 2 whole years ago, we didn't have quite so many manipulaters in the digi art forum and didn't need a separate forum. I'm still not sure it was the best idea as it is all art. Anyway, thanks to Joel we now have a separate forum for just painters, and good thing or not thats the way it is. So nothing left to poll over about it now. I don't know why this old old thread was resurrected under the circumstances but, at any rate, hope to see you post some art too.

gigih
07-29-2006, 02:43 PM
i've been around wet canvas for a while and do 90% or my creations digitally, but you will see very little of my work posted here. Most of the time I post in the quicki-digi thread in the abstract forum. the reasons are as follows. first off, most of my work starts out either as a freehand sketch or watercolor, then I photograph it and manipulate it. Or else, I can freehand draw on my tablet and digitally paint it, but I will stll use several filters and plug-ins after to enhance certain effects i'm looking for. I also am very involved in creating fractals and artistically enhancing them. I don't post in the digital forum because too many people seem so hung up on whether a digital creation was done "freehand" or "manipulated". rather than try to choose and perhaps be wrong, I just post in a more digitally-friendly enviroment (i.e. the quicki-digi) because there they are interested if your work is aesthetically pleasing and not whether you traced anything or used any photos, etc. Instead of worrying about how something was created, can we just concentrate on whether it looks good, and leave the how to's to tutorials?

Chiers
07-29-2006, 03:49 PM
Since this is a two year old thread and the closed poll in question is a moot subject I am closing this thread.