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Andrew Rance
06-02-2004, 04:37 PM
Another one of these - a couple of hours on the smudger. This time a bit looser in style & more like the kind of thing I would like to be able to do in oils.

Duende
06-02-2004, 08:20 PM
This is Great Andrew. What are program are you working with?
By the way, my hubbies Mom was a "Gertrude Rance" and her ancestors were pioneers who emigrated from Ireland to South Africa. Paddy

Andrew Rance
06-02-2004, 08:39 PM
Hi Paddy - this is Corel Painter Classic, done on a Wacom tablet. The Rance connection is interesting, as there aren't too many of us, but no connection with the Emerald Isle on my side of the family, as far as I know.

Michael
06-02-2004, 09:02 PM
Andrew,
I think you should throw away your "real" brushes and just do this!...LOL, it is always a joy to see the magnificent art works you post!

Jet
06-03-2004, 03:13 AM
Andrew,
this one would look great printed on canvas...
...on the wall of a bar or lounge , as this one 'feels' like a happy painting.

I love your style, probably because i relate to the way it develops without prior sketching, but 'smear-sculpting' paint around , instead.
Very expressive style...
Regards

JCoop
06-03-2004, 12:14 PM
Andrew, your style is exciting. I agree that this would look tremedous transferred to canvas or another art paper. Gutsy stlye cow poke!

Andrew Rance
06-03-2004, 03:39 PM
Thanks guys - think I'm getting somewhere here, and working a few things out along the way. Any suggestions where I would go to get these printed on canvas? I've heard of giclee printing, but haven't a clue what its all about. Tried printing them on inkjet canvas, and the results were promising, but only A4 - I'd like to try getting them up to about 30 x 24 in - the originals are around 3000 x 2400 pixels - is that about right for that size of printing, or will I end up all pixellated??

Jet
06-03-2004, 04:13 PM
There is a member that she's printing Gicleé with the epson 9600 , ultrachrome 7 inks.
that printer is capable of unpixellate your graphics , but it's a lot easier if you do it in your program by converting to a higher resolution and/or larger size.
Although, i can see you have a wealthy size already, i would say you got it all covered already.
Let me locate that lady for ya ..
be back in a jiffy

-------- :cool:

Jet
06-03-2004, 04:26 PM
Andrew,
check this thread out and you'll find lots of answers..
->thread on Gicleé printing (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186910&highlight=gicle%E9)

if you need anything else just PM me i'll be around for a while.

.. :cool:

Andrew Rance
06-04-2004, 07:22 AM
Cheers Jorge - that was an interesting and useful thread. Now I'm off to find me a Giclee printer (or look at investing in my own equipment, maybe). How do you get on with the Epson?

Jet
06-04-2004, 08:43 AM
Cheers Jorge - that was an interesting and useful thread. Now I'm off to find me a Giclee printer (or look at investing in my own equipment, maybe). How do you get on with the Epson?
Andrew, glad you found it helpful.

About the 7600 it's a noble machine (if that quality can be applied to a machine), a tireless workhorse.
I leave it working at 8 p.m. and at 6 a.m. it's still going as fresh as ever.

I'm very comfortable with its output, i haven't used full resolution yet and the results are great.
it has a great hands-off, algorithm routine for de-pixellating small graphics when blown up to large sizes.
It has many optional surfaces for printing...for instance:
It can print on a special-coated canvas that can be stretched and framed , and ....that print looks like a real painting.
If it does that, to my incipient pantings, just imagine what it will do to your beauties....

.....and i could go on and on...

**in the beginning the only drawback was, finding enough work for it, as the inks have to be used in a 6-month period, or be discarded.

I fully recommend it..... you'll love it !

if you need more info check large format printers at Epson's site.
Its [URL=http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/Printers.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=0]printers section/URL] has many new options for archival prints in all sizes.

Thanks..
Regards

JCoop
06-04-2004, 10:33 AM
Hi Andrew & Jet. I just want to tack on an important point. I've been doing giclee's for quite sometime now, and I want to emphasize that if you go that route, make sure that the company that transfers your art is using an archival process including archival inks.

Some companys offer both. Non archival giclee prints are cheaper, but hardly worth the expense. If you are producing works that you intend to sell, It's imparative that you go the archival route. Your reputation will suffer if you don't... non archival prints can fade in as little as 3 years even if you treat them with a fancy UV protecting varnish.

Archival prints on the other hand can last a upwards of 200 years. As you can see, it's worth the extra loot. Just build it into the price of the artwork.

Jet, I don't know much about your particular desktop printer, but it sounds great. Do they make archival inks for it? Even if they don't, it sounds like a great option for proofing and such.

Ok gusys, that's all.

Andrew Rance
06-04-2004, 04:02 PM
Thanks guys - I have been doing a bit of scouting around the web and come across a lot of info on giclee, and see that the issue of ink quality is a big concern. I also noted a big difference in the range of prices being quoted for printing on to canvas - a factor of ten in some cases! So it seems there must be a few cowboys around! I think the big Epsons are way out of my range, but I see there is a new Epson Stylus 4000 out, which can print on canvas up to 17" wide and from roll material with the Ultrachrome inks. At around $1700 it looks interesting.

Jet
06-04-2004, 04:13 PM
Yes Andrew, that's one of the new high-res printers with archival inks from Epson. it has nice size carrier (17") and it's very compact .

The difference is about carrier size, mostly.

excellent choice if you go for it.

Regards

Jet
06-04-2004, 04:34 PM
Hi Andrew & Jet. I just want to tack on an important point. I've been doing giclee's for quite sometime now, and I want to emphasize that if you go that route, make sure that the company that transfers your art is using an archival process including archival inks.
................................
Jet, I don't know much about your particular desktop printer, but it sounds great. Do they make archival inks for it? Even if they don't, it sounds like a great option for proofing and such.

Ok gusys, that's all.

Joel,
you're right on your concern about archival ink.

The printer i use nowadays is the Epson 7600 UltraChrome
7- color archival ink, i have used the 9600 but sold it and bought the smaller 7600.
Lady Rando a WC member, does professional Gicleé printing and she uses the Epson 9600 Ultrachrome inks

Next is a brief excerpt from Lady Rando's : Dowit Studio.
you may click on the graphic to warp to her studio FAQ page
.......................http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jun-2004/27782-dowit.jpg (http://www.giclee-printing.dowitstudio.com/Faq.htm)

From Dowit Studio's FAQ page


What type of printer do you use?
EPSON STYLUS PRO 9600 - printing capabilities up to 44 inches wide x 100 ft. long. Epson created a brand new Micro Piezo DX3™ print head which a capable of producing a resolution of 2,880 x 1,440 dpi. Epson's most advanced print head ensures a level of print quality that must been seen to be believed.

What type of materials (media) do you print Giclée's on?
We print on Epson media canvas and watercolor paper. Epson canvas is acid free, 100% cotton duck. Epson watercolor paper (Somerset Velvet) is acid free, 100% cotton rag. Both are archival quality and when used with Epson Ultrachroma pigment inks are rated up to 100 years light fastness.


Joel this printer is not a desktop's, it's huge, it broke one of my old desks when i first got it, and had to buy its own stand for it....
Take a look at wide format printers at Epson's printers section (http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/Printers.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&oid=0)

Great toy indeed !

see you later , mon amí
:cool:

JCoop
06-04-2004, 05:02 PM
Joel this printer is not a desktop, it's huge, it broke one of my old desks when i first got it, and had to buy its own stand for it...
Wow Jet, that's a beauty! I'm buying a house at the moment, else, I would definitely invest in one of those... either the 7600 or the 9600. I'll just have to dream for now. :rolleyes:
Glad that you have one so I can bombard you with questions when I get mine. :D
Good luck with that 4000 Andrew. That one looks like a winner too.

Jin
06-04-2004, 11:34 PM
Thanks guys - think I'm getting somewhere here, and working a few things out along the way. Any suggestions where I would go to get these printed on canvas? I've heard of giclee printing, but haven't a clue what its all about. Tried printing them on inkjet canvas, and the results were promising, but only A4 - I'd like to try getting them up to about 30 x 24 in - the originals are around 3000 x 2400 pixels - is that about right for that size of printing, or will I end up all pixellated??

Hi Andrew,

Nice painting!

A rule of thumb for printing is to use a resolution of 300 ppi.

If your painting was done at 3000 x 2400 pixels, 300 ppi, it should print a high quality 10 x 8 inch image, depending of course on the printer and the paper used.

Depending on the painting, you might be able to reduce the resolution to 240 ppi or if it were a watercolor, maybe even 150 ppi, thereby increasing the printed image dimensions.

3000 x 2400 pixels at 240 ppi would print a 12.5 x 10 inch image (quality depending on the image, the printer, and the paper used).

3000 x 2400 pixels at 150 ppi would print a 20 x 16 inch image (quality depending particularly on the image, also the printer, and the paper used).

Again, watercolors are generally softer anyway, so people say they can be printed larger without so much loss, if any, of visual quality.

It's not the printer that determines if there'll be pixelation. It's the density of pixels in a given inch, each pixel carrying color information.

Obviously if you have 300 pixels across a horizontal or vertical inch, you're going to have more color information and smaller pixels than if you have 150 pixels stretched across the same horizontal or vertical inch. In the latter case, you'd have pixels twice the size and also capable of carrying only half the color information that was carried in the 300 pixels.

Fewer pixels packed into a square inch = more likelihood of pixelation (visible pixels.. "jaggies" along curves and angles) and blurriness.

Enough pixels packed into a square inch - no pixelation, clean sharp detail, and smooth color transitions.

Paper is important too, as you can get drastically different results with different papers.

If you're going to have a print shop do the printing, talk to them to find out what's the best way to handle your completed images and images you have not yet started. They'll be able to tell you what resolution (ppi number or pixels per inch) you'll need to use to get good results given a certain set of dimensions in inches.

Best to plan before starting the painting so you won't run into disappointments after the fact.

Andrew Rance
06-05-2004, 09:03 AM
Hi Jin - thanks for the detailed response, and waht you are saying seems lots of good sense. I don't know much about these things, so I went and had a look at my settings in Corel painter and it seems I have been doing these at 72dpi! Usually I work at around 3000 pixels image width, and I have found this gives comfortable handling of the pixels (I usually use the palette knife tool in Painter to smear the pixels around, varying the width and opacity as I think fit - usually use the tool at around 25-50% width and around 15-30% opacity). I use the paintbrush tool to fill in details here and there, then the airbrush to blend in backgrounds etc. I think I will try experimenting at higher dpi and see what happens - so far I have only been printing at A4 size, and the results have been good, but I guess if I have aspirations to print larger then I will have to up the dpi.

JCoop
06-05-2004, 11:20 AM
Andrew, the whole image size thing is a little confusing for the uninitiated. It's not necessary for you to work at a higher resolution than 72dpi if your pixel dimensions are 3000ppi by 2400dpi. dpi is a relative concept. Let me show you what I mean...

This is how you're working now...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jun-2004/30872-size_screen1.jpg

Which is the same as working this way...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jun-2004/30872-size_screen2.jpg
Notice the actual document size (Pixel Dimesions) hasn't changed.

Meaning... just because you work at a higher dpi(ppi) doesn't mean anything unless you change the actual document size. So for instance working at 72dpi is the same as working at 300dpi if the pixel dimensions remain the same.

I said all of this to say that your fine working at 72dpi, at a pixel dimension of 3000X2400 or so, if your using Giclee process (ink jet) for output. That would make your final output size 20"X16" @ 150dpi, which is fine...
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/05-Jun-2004/30872-size_screen3.jpg

Something very important to remember is that if your printing to canvas for eventual stretching, add a half inch to your document on all sides, you'll need that extra for the stretchin process. Meaning... if your desired final size is 20"X16, your document size should be 21"X17. So adjust your document size to accomodate the extra inch in width and height.

Andrew, don't worry. We'll get your there. ;)

Jet
06-05-2004, 11:51 AM
Lots of info thanks to Jin and Joel !!

i'll add one link for an interesting site on Gicleé printing (http://www.artistprintshop.com/)

Hope you find what you need .... :cool:

Regards

Lady Rando
06-06-2004, 08:12 AM
[QUOTE=Jet Liera]
Joel this printer is not a desktop's, it's huge, it broke one of my old desks when i first got it, and had to buy its own stand for it....
QUOTE]
Hi all, did I hear my name mentioned?

Jet, you are right about the size of these printers. My 9600 weighs 185 lbs. It's one big baby. :D And oh so sweet. Works it's lil heart out for me and never complains. Gotta love those epsons.

Andrew Rance
06-06-2004, 09:51 AM
Thanks, Joel, for explaining that - I think I'm getting the gist. I tend to think of image size in terms of resolution (being a long-time digital camera user), and haven't thought mush about how it equates with image output sizes. Thanks again!

Jin
06-06-2004, 04:06 PM
Andrew,

The term "resolution" can be confusing at times.

As you say, it's used with digital cameras to indicate the total number of pixels in the photo (I suppose it might also be used in other ways related to digital cameras.... ??).

In Corel Painter, for instance, that term is used when we open an image and about halfway down the New dialog box, there's a field named Resolution where we specify the PPI number (pixels per inch... or CM per inch). In that case, it doesn't specify the total number of pixels in the image.

To find out how many total pixels there are in the image, we need to multiply the Width in pixels by the Height in pixels. For instance:

2400 wide x 1800 high = 4,320,000 total pixels in the image.

Then, to determine the printed image dimensions, we need to divide the image width in pixels and its height in pixels by the Resolution (or ppi) number. For instance:

An image that's 2400 pixels wide x 1800 pixels high at 300 ppi = 8 x 6 inches when printed.

An image that's 2400 pixels wide x 1800 pixels high at 72 ppi = 33.33 x 25 inches when printed.

In other words, to know how large your printed image will be, you need to know the Resolution, or PPI number (number of pixels per inch) in addition to the image dimensions in pixels (not just the total number of pixels in the image).

Though it can be very misleading if not understood well, it is true that if you begin your image with a large enough total number of pixels in the image it's possible to get a decent size good quality print.

Again, it's my personal opinion and that of a lot of other folks who work with digital art and digital photos, that the ideal way to work is to begin your image with a high enough Resolution (ppi number, or pixels per inch) as well as the desired final dimensions in inches to ensure that however the final image or photo will be used, you're likely to have a good experience, either printing the image or photo, or when the image is saved a second time as a 72 ppi JPG or GIF for use on the Web.

(Of course when using the three step method I outlined earlier, working first at 72 ppi with small dimensions to block in large areas of color, resizing to larger dimensions at 150 ppi to add large details, then resizing to the final dimensions and 300 ppi to add small details and do touch up, you would not.. obviously.. begin the image at 300 ppi and using the final print dimensions in inches.)

As I understand the term "interpolation" when used in this context, it means the act of inserting extra pixels to enlarge a digital image or photo. When the software does this (again, as I understand it), it has to "guess" what colors those added pixels should be, based on existing pixels. This can be a rather disappointing experience as the result can be a blurry image (probably other negatives as well.. I'm not an expert here).

However, there are some fairly good solutions for interpolating digital images while retaining adequate image quality, some quite expensive (Genuine Fractals), others not expensive at all. You can read about some of them and see comparisons on Fred Miranda's site at:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/SI/index.html

Fred's Stair Interpolation (SI) Photoshop actions can be purchased for $19.90 U.S. at:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/shopping/SIpro

Yako
06-06-2004, 04:39 PM
Andrew, your artwork ,the expression, color, the theme...beautiful...! :clap: :clap: :clap: ...but ,perhaps it's only my impression, that the right corner of the jaw is somehow a bit bigger (the paler one) than the left one...perhaps I'm wrong.