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Lorijayne
05-26-2004, 09:10 PM
This construction is made up of scanned images, original photos, and drawn elements. I know there's been a lot of discussion (ad nauseum) about what constitutes digital art. Well, to me the computer hardware and software are just the tools I use with my own art process to create another reality. That being said, here's the construction. -- Lori

Jet
05-26-2004, 09:25 PM
Hi LoriJayne,
This is called digital montage or collage depending on the elements included and process involved.

It looks very artistic...
.... i used to do them a lot when i first started getting my feet wet in digital image processing.

Regards

Michael
05-26-2004, 09:32 PM
No matter what you want to call it...I like it!!!

JCoop
05-26-2004, 10:16 PM
Amen to that Michael. Very dramatic and nicely done!

Lorijayne
05-26-2004, 11:47 PM
It looks very artistic...
i used to do them a lot when i first started getting my feet wet in digital image processing.

I am hoping you didn't mean this to be as condescending as it sounds. I am not a beginner.

This is called digital montage or collage depending on the elements included and process involved.

What is your authority for this designation? You sound like an expert.

Sorry, I don't mean to be contentious but I am tired of seeing artists' works on this forum constantly "labeled" and that digital works that imitate the traditional media (oil, pastel, etc.) are deemed as somehow "better". As an artist, by nature I resist categorization. I will explore all the functions that the a medium has and implement them in my final product. I've done this with paint and chalk and I am doing it with software. My process is valid and in no way inferior. If my point of view means that I or may ART are not welcomed on this forum, than I'll gladly depart.

Thank you.

Lorijayne
05-26-2004, 11:49 PM
Oh, yes, and thank you Joel and Michael.

flowerfancy58
05-27-2004, 12:14 AM
Very nice LoriJayne, I like this one a lot:)

gloria

Michael
05-27-2004, 01:25 AM
What you have done here IS Digital Art, well, in my opinion anyway. LOL, and we all have an opinion on what constitutes this, which, to me, makes the whole style exciting :D . While there may be an argument saying that you did not do it "completely" from scratch or what not does not take away from the fact that you are the one that had the vision, the personal style, and the vision to create what you have here.

As for the labels Digital montage or collage, that is just being technical. In other words, you used elements of these to acomplish your vision, or work. I would not take offence At these "labels", but instead embrace thenm as "tools of the trade" which is exactly what they are. I do anyway, because I use them in some of my work myself, and as such, look forward to seeing how others use them.

I should mention here that Jorge's chosen form of art is Digital Art, so don't feel that he is condescending towards you. I have known him for quite some time and recognize when he is being technical, which he was here.

Either way, I don't think you are any longer "struggling to set the inner artist free", because, from what I see, you have succeded wonderously in doing so!!

I can't wait to see more of your work!!

Hmmm...I think I talk too much :confused:

JCoop
05-27-2004, 11:18 AM
Lori, Jet is known for embracing all forms of art. I do understand your sensitivity toward the subject. We've all been taken to task for one reason or another as we explore the this beautiful frontier that is digital art. I think he was mis-understood in this instance... he would be the first to tell you that what you've posted is clearly artistic and beautiful.

Please keep posting here... your work is an asset to this forum.

Jet
05-28-2004, 01:42 AM
This construction is made up of scanned images, original photos, and drawn elements. I know there's been a lot of discussion (ad nauseum) about what constitutes digital art. Well, to me the computer hardware and software are just the tools I use with my own art process to create another reality. That being said, here's the construction. -- Lori
OOps, Lorijayne, i just took a long nap and i find the world tumbling down...
:p ..
Sorry if i sounded -to you- the way i believe i did.... :(

...by the way you explained in your post you sounded very deffensive, so i tried NOT to entice anything further.. :confused: ..

Thanks to my 'warrior' background in Wet Canvas (as Michael and Joel have witnessed) , i can PROUDLY assure you , i embrace all digital Art as is, and respect every Digital Artist as well.

In my brief comment i said, "it looks very artistic" as the END of the means-
About montage and collage- I have said (ad nauseum) in earlier posts how i did those in traditional photography, as darkroom techniques 25 years ago... ;)
I have had endless discussions (ad nauseum)- always deffending digital art, -even photo manips and collages and filters and plugins- when done with artistic sense and taste, just like your art piece right here.

It is my duty as Guide of Digital Art Forum, that new members and /or newbies in this type of art, feel welcome at this forum...At the same time, taking care that this forum is used for the purpose it was originally created: Straight Digital Art [no manipulations], so at some stage the ONLY detail that could have been a topic of discussion would be that your work might be at the wrong forum, but i didn't want to be too drastic or hard on you.....

When i first got into WC and posted my first works, NOBODY replied anything, and when somebody did they were hard and picky....i thought my works weren't up to their usual quality or they just didn't care .....

BUT, in ART as in LOVE beauty is a personal thing, and as artists we have to learn FIRST to deal with rejection...It happens very often an artist shows his/her works here and gets 9 positive reviews/replies, and 1 negative ...
...the artist gets all tangled up at that member who dared expressing his/her feelings toward that art piece....
That's one of the reasons many members don't reply or just stay with the 'nice work, keep it up' thing.....
So, even if 100 replies say your work sucks, at the end, your opinion is the one that must prevail-

I am terrible sorry for not being as clear as i should 've been from the
beginning, but here it goes again---

Lorijayne,
you're welcome to Digital Art Forum, the Haven for digital artists...
At this forum we encourage the use of straight digital means for doing ART.

Your have done a beautiful art piece, i love how you have placed all the elements in a congruent and meaningful way, i like the golden hues all around the piece, which seem to enhance and convey a certain mood.

I like it very much,but as classification goes: my only doubt would be if it qualifies as a straight digital art piece or as a digital manipulation art piece.

Maybe that's where lies the confusion and not on the question if it is or isn't digital art....
...I know i've had my share of mistakes about it -believe me-...

One thing you will NEVER hear at Wet Canvas is, that you're not welcome, so please erase that from your mind, and never to be mentioned again. :mad: ;)


Regards

Jet
05-28-2004, 12:48 PM
Lori,
I seem to reply to threads and always talk technical stuff, that's my way of getting my head to focus on the picture in turn ....

You and i have come a long way, i tend to reply to your threads in a similar manner and you hadn't reacted this way ever before...
Please take a look at these threads you have started at this forum, check my replies there-

1.-05-22-2004
Woman with Chakras (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190840)
I love this type of illustrations and great topic

2.-04-20-2004
Mausoleum Mandala (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183501)
Good job, nice combination of vector and raster images.
-in this thread i was the only one who replied to your posting-

3.-02-10-2004
Antiqued Woman (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166678)
--You started this thread with these words:
Yeh, yeh, I know-- a photo manip. but I thought I'd toss it up here anyway. I was trying to acheive a antiqued look plus an air of mystery.
---Number of replies ...Zero.
*This photo manip is very well done and I'm sure you would've gotten many replies if you had posted it in the correct forum.

4.-01-02-2004
Fruit Still Life (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157026)
*This piece looks like it's been done from scratch-
-in my reply here, i confess my inexperience toward Straight Digital Art, as follows.......
Well, i've just began training my eye for a new way to look at art (too many manips), i'll have to second Ex-Skinny's (perfection) -No words-

5.- 12-16-2003
First Wacom Tablet Sketch (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153660)
*Here you were asking for critique on your very first drawing with a Wacom tablet -
--I was the first one to reply--
Well, it goes further than a sketch, into a painting rendition.
you already have the notions, you'll get the hang of it in no time.

Which tablet did you get ?
*----------------------------------------------------

After this brief background check, i see that you have never felt unwelcome before by my words, -or the lack of-...
...My guess is, you were expecting your picture being rejected, knowing before hand this forum wasn't the right place for it...
... i refrained from making this evident in my first reply as i didn't want to stir the waters, but apparently my description of the techniques used on the picture triggered your answers...

I don't see any reasons -past or present-, to be mad or angry, so please, feel Welcome at posting in this forum anytime .

-If you need anything else you can PM me-anytime-. :)

Regards

baquitania
05-28-2004, 10:52 PM
Guys:

First off let me say that Jet was in the right to clarify what he felt your piece was... that said, he did apologize if in doing so it hit a nerve, that of course was unintentional, we do NOT pick fights here. That happens in other forums when we as Digital Artists try to share our work with traditionalists. So we certainly don't and won't be doing any stirring up the natives here, no pun intended Jet ;)...

As for the piece in question, it does bring up a good arguement. Should we have our own subforum for Digital Montage? I think so... I will discuss this further with our Guides and let everyone know what happens. As it is, we won't be moving your very skillful piece to a new home, this is where you belong.

Bobby

Lorijayne
06-01-2004, 02:47 PM
Thank you for your comments. Until such time as this forum develops a clear, coherent, and inclusive definition of "Digital Art", I will post my artwork on my own website so as not to "stir up the natives". Anyone so inclined may view my work at:

http://members.aol.com/poemcaster


Lori

Jet
06-02-2004, 01:01 AM
Thank you for your comments. Until such time as this forum develops a clear, coherent, and inclusive definition of "Digital Art", I will post my artwork on my own website so as not to "stir up the natives".
Lori

Lori, sorry you feel that way....
Although, you seem to have a point ...
Because there's no prohibition for posting any digital piece here.
i guess it has to be renamed to Straight Digital Art Forum and estipulated clearly, no straight digital look-alikes or mockery of any kind..and ennumerate everykind of possible digital art that's not permitted like paintovers and cloned images and the like, but in the meantime, let's see the rules of

------------------Digital Manipulation forum Rules--------------------
...as they are a lot easier to understand...

* This is a forum for presenting and discussing digital art created from our own photos. Please share your methods with your fellow manipulators so we can all learn from each other.

* Photos that have been adjusted (contrast changes, sharpened, converted to grayscale, etc) are traditionally considered "touched-up" and should go in The Darkroom.

*The Manipulation Forum is for when you've taken your photo to a different level by creating a look that mimics other mediums, like sketches and watercolors, collages and whatever else you can think of to take your photo beyond traditional darkroom techniques.
-------------------------------------
I believe this is what you were looking for..
it clearly says "collage" work goes to Digital manipulation forum and any other that mimics, like those paintovers that had been appearing from time to time should go to the Manips place....

we might not have a coherent inclusive definition of digital art but we have a clear definition of what is considered a photomanip.
i still believe there should be a sign with the works that aren't supposed to be here .
Because that's digital art too, so the forum needs a new name, that way when you or i or anyone else read "Straight Digital Art", you'll say , hey this collage is not straight digital art, then find another forum for it.
Now is it clear enough for you ? :)

From now on, you can post those pictures at the digi manips forum, and post here, one done with straight digital technique, and no hurt feelings , ok?.. :clap:
Regards

Michael
06-02-2004, 01:12 AM
Lorijayne,

Please do not get frustrated or discouraged with WetCanvas or the Digital Forums right now. In reality, you have brought up an argument that has gone on quite a while between the two forums. Now, I call The ASYLUM home, That is to say, that while I do post work here, involve myself in the projects here, the majority of my work is Digital manipulations, and that is where my heart is. Well...Here too...LOL.

To make long short, please, come on over to The Asylum ((Digital Manipulation Discussions)--CLICK HERE), (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=96) would love to have you and see your work!!! :)

Lorijayne
06-02-2004, 02:17 AM
Now is it clear enough for you ?

PERFECTLY. Your tone is very clear as well.

Elvira
06-02-2004, 03:35 AM
This whole arguement is a bunch of nonsense, if it is createtive and done on a computer it is Digital art. When I did work using natural mediums I never ran into this kind of silliness if I used mixed media including photos, coffee grains or any other material on a canvas to get the result I wanted I didn't have to have a seperate gallery to desplay it, I could hang it beside my watercolours, oils or acrylics without someone saying it belonged in the next room or something.

Life is far too short to fuss about how we make our art. Let us just enjoy it and discuss it on an adult level, using proper terms of critisim such as does the image work, what we find interesting in the composition or find lacking , how can it be improved etc, these things are far more important than the method used to express our vision.

Using the criteria of this argument my whole depression series should not have been premited, as it made uses of many techneques and any tool I could find to explore in my digital tool box including my digital camera.

Edie
:(

Jin
06-02-2004, 07:35 PM
Hi folks,

My first paragraphs are added after having written my quite long post below, and after reading both Jet's most recent post to Lorijayne and Elvira's most recent post:

Jet,

Believe me, I know it can be difficult and challenging to be a forum moderator (or "Guide"). I've moderated forums a lot, and currently run my own message board where I'm both the Admin and one of the moderators for all of the forums. It requires patience, thought, and diplomacy. However, we all need to be reminded once in a while, including me.

It would not do any harm to be a little more sensitive and a little more tactful. I agree that the tone of your last post is clear. I'll add that just reading it, I find it offensive. Were it addressed to me, and were I not experienced handling less than tactful posts, I'd probably think hard about whether or not I wanted to continue as a participant in the Digital Art forum or even as a member of WetCanvas.

Elvira,

Your post makes good sense! Thanks. :)

I heartily agree that there's a lot of silliness surrounding what may be shared where. This is not only true here, but as you know.. it's true on other message boards as well.

To everyone,

I'll add that, to be fair to those who make the decisions, it appears they may not have full knowledge of the possibilities available when creating artwork digitally. Nor have they thought through these possibilities even if they are aware of them.. before making these decisions.

While it's possible to fairly well define, simply and clearly, the term "Photo Manipulation" the term "Straight Digital Art" is quite unclear. What makes it "Straight"?

We do know what "Digital Art" actually is. It's artwork created using digital hardware and software: computers and graphics applications, digital cameras, scanners, printers, plotters, and probably items I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Below is what I'd written prior to reading the two posts mentioned above. It took me a few hours to write this post, both last night and this afternoon, and I put a lot of thought into it.

It's based on my own experience and knowledge of Corel Painter over almost a decade, my own knowledge of other software applications, and almost as many years working with Painter users and other graphic artists ranging from beginner to expert, hobbyist to professional, all over the Painter community and beyond, and on a daily basis.

Please read it knowing that it's offered with the kindest and best of intentions, to bring awareness so those who create the forum guidelines, if they choose to, can make them as realistic, reasonable, fair, simple, and clear as possible:

My original writing for this post:
_____________________________________________

Since reading this thread has made me realize I don't understand the boundaries within which art may be approved to share in this forum, I'd like to bring up some questions and hopefully stir some thought.

One thing that is clear, to me at least, is that there are more than two of us who are not dead sure where the line is drawn. It appears there is no clear line drawn that takes into account multiple possibilities, thus the difficulty in both understanding and enforcing the guidelines.

It occurs to me this could be partly due to lack of understanding both regarding the software's capabilities and processes used by the artist, and partly due to simply not having thought through the guidelines enough to make them workable.

First some definitions of the basic words we're using, thanks to Webster's dictionary online:

Digital: "Computer Science: Of or relating to a device that can read, write, or store information that is represented in numerical form."

Art: (one of many definitions) "The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium."

In reality, any art created using computer hardware and software, scanners, digital cameras, even printers and plotters, as opposed to traditional media is: Digital Art

(Of course this is not to even insert the question, "is it really ART?". That discussion will go on until the ends of the earth, with no final resolution to be expected.. ever!) :D

To get "serious" again, my questions about what will be approved for sharing in this forum are best demonstrated in the following scenarios. Though most of these things can be done in either Photoshop or Painter (and some in other programs), I'll mainly talk about Painter since I know it best:

a.) If the final image was based on one or more photos that are somehow altered from their original state, I'm guessing it would be classified as: "Photo Manipulation" (might include repair and cleanup, color adjustment, contrast adjustment, Painter Effects/Photoshop filtering, etc.)

b.) Or, I suppose it could also be classified, if it's comprised of more than one photo, as: "Digital Photo Collage" (might also include repair and cleanup, color adjustment, contrast adjustment, Painter Effects/Photoshop filtering, and would almost certainly include the use of Layers and Layer Composite Methods (in Photoshop, Blending Modes). There's a possibility that painting and drawing would also be included to a small or large degree.

c.) If the final image was created by first cloning (making an exact copy of) another image or photo, then clearing the Clone Canvas, turning on Tracing Paper, and painting with brush variants set to work as Cloners (to pick up color information from the original/Source image), into which category does it fall? Though a photo may have been the original/Source image, the photo itself was not manipulated, so it can't be called "Photo Manipulation", can it? The clone painting was not, in the purest sense, done from scratch as the original/Source photo or image, if Tracing Paper is turned on, can be seen by the artist at 50% opacity through the Clone Canvas. Because of this, it's possible (though not necessary) for the artist to trace or "paint over" what they see in the original/Source image or photo. In addition, though the artist can do so, it is not necessary to manually pick colors. Again, color information will automatically be taken from the original/Source photo or image as long as the artist is using a brush variant that works as a Cloner. Clone painting can be as simple as using a few keystrokes and be completed in seconds, or as complex as the artist wants it to be, requiring a good deal of planning, knowledge of the software, skill, talent, and time. Using Painter's Clone painting features, it's also possible to combine two or more original/Source images or photos, or create a collage by using more than one original/Source image or photo. No matter how you cut it, ultimately, it's still "Digital Art" whether you like, or even respect, this method of working... or not.

d.) If the final image was created from scratch with no imagery added other than what is drawn or painted by the artist right there on the Painter Canvas or Layers, with the possible use of Painter Effects/PS filtering, as another method of adding texture to part or all of the image, for instance, it stands to reason it would be classified as: "Digital Art". It certainly couldn't be called "Photo Manipulation", could it? It certainly couldn't be called "Digital Photo Collage", could it? Not if it didn't contain one or more photos.

Pause to think for a minute:

When an artist is working to develop a vision, or to follow their creativity and see where it leads them, and if they're curious and adventuresome enough, they may use many features and techniques, multiple Effects, multiple Layers and multiple Layer types, and multiple brush categories and brush variants to draw and paint on the image. By the time the piece is completed, it may contain, "Photo Manipulation", "Digital Photo Collage", and still be "Digital Art", because it is not traditional media art, is it? It can't be called traditional art if it was not created using traditional media and traditional tools, can it?

Notice that in a few of the scenarios above, I included mention of Painter Effects/Photoshop filters. I'll list other items and features that might be used to create the final image, items and features that might or might not disqualify a piece of artwork for inclusion in this forum if it were evident they were used and if the artist even remembered every step along the road to completion in order to mention these other items and features and decide for themselves where it should be shared. I certainly can't always remember everything I did and used while creating a complex image, though I'm better at it than some since I teach Painter and get more than the normal amount of practice writing things down.

Additional scenarios, several together since my comments regarding them pertain to all of them:

e.) Painter's brushes, as most of you who use Painter know, can be made to interact with Paper textures to create some interesting and lovely effects. Because we are offered the capability, we often create our own Papers. These Paper textures can be created by painting, drawing, applying Painter Effects to existing color, using digital or scanned photos, and even by scanning textured items into Painter, then saving the scans as custom Paper textures. (Painter's default Papers, from the looks of them, are also based on either photos or scans of actual textures.)

Because we are offered the capability, we often create our own Patterns. These, too, can be created by painting, drawing, applying effects to existing color, using digital or scanned photos, and even by scanning things such as flower petals, beans, rice, grass, traditional media drawings or paintings, brushstrokes, or any other imagery or objects into Painter, then saving the scan as a Pattern. (Some of Painter's default Patterns also appear to be based on photos. For instance, the Painter 8 default Patterns library's Hens & Chicks and Jungle Weed Patterns look like photos to me.)

So far, we're talking about preparation and availability of art materials before the actual image creation begins. With our custom Papers and Patterns in place, we can use them to paint both color and texture, texture only, or using the Pattern Pens variants, paint the Pattern into the image. Now I'll talk about brush variants.

In addition to painting with Patterns, we can paint with images using the Image Hose brush category and Nozzles. Most, if not all, of the default Nozzles installed with Painter were apparently created based on photos. We can also create our own custom Nozzles using any image, digital or scanned photo, painting, drawing, or scanned objects.

Another possibility is the use of Captured Dab brush variants, brush variants for which the brush dab is based on an image. This image could be drawn or painted just for this purpose, it could be part or all of an existing image, or it could be part or all of a digital or scanned photo. The end product of this exercise is a custom Captured Dab brush variant, another of many custom brush variants the artist may use with, or without, Painter's default brush variants, to create the final image.

If the final image contains some painting with Nozzles that happen to have been created based on photos, Papers that were scanned based on photos, Patterns that were scanned based on photos, or some painting done with custom Captured Dab brush variants for which the brush dab was based on a digital or scanned photo, does that make the final image "Photo Manipulation". I don't think so.

As a matter of fact, the skilled artist may use these art materials and tools in such a way as to make it nearly impossible to know what the source imagery was, whether directly from the artist's hand while painting or drawing or from Nozzles, scanned or photo based Papers, scanned or photo based Patterns, or from custom Captured Dab brush variants for which the brush dab was based on a digital or scanned photo. So many "layers" of work may have been applied, and with such good planning, skill, and talent, the result of using these tools and materials may be extremely subtle while making all the difference in how the final image looks. Again, the final artwork is "Digital Art". Of that we can be sure. It certainly is not traditional artwork. Nor would it even seem reasonable to call it "Photo Manipulation".

Others may think of additional scenarios in which there may be a question as to where a final image may be displayed, here in the Digital Art forum, in another forum at WetCanvas, or if there is currently no forum at WetCanvas where the final image will be welcomed if the method of producing the final image is known.

I do not think the artist should feel they have to hide their methods of working in order to be allowed to share their artwork. Nor do I expect anyone running the WetCanvas forums would want their members to feel they need to defend, let alone hide, their methods of working.

What does seem needed is further consideration of all possible ways of producing final artwork using a computer rather than using traditional media, then some more clear guidelines provided that take into account all of these methods of working digitally.

It seems a huge waste of time and energy, that could be better spent enjoying each other's digitally created artwork and learning from each other, to be worried about whether or not the piece qualifies to be shared here. In addition, it does little to enhance the atmosphere to be debating the issue over and over when members could simply be referred to some clear, simple, and sufficiently comprehensive guidelines.

I hope this long post will be helpful in some way, and if you managed to stay awake long enough to get this far, thanks! ;)

Best wishes to all,

Sincerely,

Michael
06-02-2004, 08:05 PM
Jinny,
That was extremely well thought out and researched post. Thank you much for the insight and, quite frankly, lessons you have brought forth here. You definately have given me a lot to think about and consider. As far as what really consitutes "straight" digital art, I will probably never be %100 clear on. What I am clear on is that the effort and skill that people put into thier art should be appreciated for what it is. Some have more skill than other, but then, this is what this community is for, to learn from each other.

I guess one of the biggest questions seperating the two forums would be this: "How much of the original photograph remains? How evident is the original photograph?"

I myself spend the majority of my time, and post mostly, in the Asylum. By my thoughts, a good bit of what I post there could also be posted here. That being said, the reason I keep it there is because in some form, the BASIS of the piece was based on a photograph.

Now, on to what was insensitive and what was percieved that way. I can see where some comments made were taken in the worst way possible. Also, from knowing the people I also know that they were trying thier best to make Lori feel at home. To be quite honest, I think this is just a situation that was blown out of proportion. And standing back and looking in from the outside I can see both sides, and see that both sides were right in this instance. Which is not always the case.

Just from experience, I know that everyone is welcome here, and I know that people here want to see new faces and new ideas coming through here.

Well...Now that I have rambled on I am going to go slip back to the ASYLUM :evil:

themanda
06-02-2004, 08:46 PM
this thread has become quite interesting! :)

first, let me say that i've known jorge across several forums now, and feel fairly confident in saying that he meant nothing other than to be helpful in his post. i feel that he was really trying to direct you to a part of WC where the aesthetic of your post would garner more RESPONSE from others who both did and appreciated that particular style of digital art more. i don't feel he was saying 'you can't post that stuff here' as he would NEVER say something like that. i think he was simply trying to say that you would most likely get more constructive responses by posting in a different area. sort of like going to a large department store and looking in the plus sized women's clothing section for men's suits...you're in the right ballpark, but are more likely to find what you'll need in a different department. but...i'm putting a whole lot of words in jet's mouth here, so i'll just stop. :) just know, though, that jorge is nothing but supportive of art of all kinds and did not intend to give you the boot, or the perceived boot. and one thing that i know i forget *all* of the time...english is very much a second language to jet. i know i wouldn't be one hundredth as profecient if i were in an all spanish forum. just something to think about...

i know that it's frustrating, especially when working with such a new medium. but, you're very talented and a welcome asset. :)

Jin
06-02-2004, 08:50 PM
Hi Michael,

Thanks for your response. My "research" is simply lots of experience, nothing more than that. In other words, I didn't have to take time to look things up. After so many years, we just remember things (some things, at least). What took so long was trying to organize my post so it made sense, hopefully, and not leaving anything out that should be included to get the points across.

Yes, I too believe that no one meant to be insensitive, tactless, or rude. As I said, it's not easy being a moderator. Nor is it easy to guarantee what we write won't be misunderstood. With the best of intentions it often is.

A funny thought:

I wonder if one of my images that includes some kind of photo, but it's not evident.. like something done with some small use of a a photo based custom Captured Dab variant or a photo based Nozzle would be welcomed in the Photo Manipulation forum? After all, I have manipulated a photo into a brush dab.

Just kidding.. I very much doubt it would be considered appropriate.

As it is now, it seems it would not be appropriate here either, technically speaking, if "Straight Digital Art" means only painting or drawing and only with non-photo based brushes.. which to me seems ridiculous.

And then there's the problem of adding texture to a painting. If the Paper or Pattern (based on which texture can also be added) is photo based, then we have a problem again.

Silliness to be sure! :D

Again, some comprehensive, clear, and simple guidelines are needed.

GoldCoin
06-02-2004, 09:23 PM
Had hesitated to become involved in this thread, but feel it is important for each of us to be able to express oneself in a mature, respectful manner.

Now there are at least 5 of us that were told , in perhaps, different words, but by the same self-appointed person, some before he was appointed a forum guide, cause, they sure weren't any elections!!! Feel it is very wrong for one member to take it upon himself to direct or dictate who is or isn't allow to post their digital art work in the Digital Art Forum.

Especially when one can find this ... count how many of these picture/painting were not involved with a photo!!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169813

Now what do you think, he should dare tell certain others folks to post their art work elsewhere ??

This was an email, I wrote shortly after he told me to move on.... And so there is no mistake about the individual in question, his name here Jet Liera.

My Email
"Moved Post -from goldcoin

Hi XXXXXXXX
Am very upset, and yes, I had requested it be deleted, not moved. Please do that...

There were no guidelines posted in that forum, that I could find..

Hated seeing the post made by Jorge...in my thread. Reviewed all his posts in that forum, 95% were results from actual photo's.. none from a blank canvas... Only of late. None of his were ever questioned nor was he asked to move them. Why??? as are Joel's, he also overpaints some of his. Please understand, none of this matters to me, think their work is wonderful and enjoy viewing it. But to be publicly embarrassed by being told to move on.... is just not acceptable to me. Especially when they are doing the same thing and so are others.

Plan on making this forum a "read only" as I no longer feel comfortable and among friendliness.

Certainly feel work done in Painter falls into digital art... even if some form of a photo is involved. be it a sketch done on an overlay... no cloning. Or using color samples..whatever.. There are very few posts that are from a blank canvas in that forum... and why should matter.. if it indeed was done digitally... one of the many forms of Digital Art.

To me a manipulation photo is a Photoshop result of an actions, or many of it's filters. But it is also Digital Art... don't really understand why there are two forum and someone isn't allow to participate where they feel comfortable.
"
Thanks,
GoldCoin

Good to hear from you both, Edie & Jin...

Lorijayne... You made me rethink my course of action.

Jet
06-02-2004, 09:25 PM
OoPs,
i just get sick for a few hours and i loose the flow of the forums...

OK guys let me thank Michael and Amanda for the supportive words.
...They're right , i don't mean to say anything negative or hurtful...maybe i could hide behind the language shell, but whenever i feel that something could be taken the wrong way i add a smiley or something like that.

the confussion here lies in ALL the definitions you've posted here..
.. i hope you could find my first posts about the same topic, and they're much like what you have described here...

You are right in every little item you have here, and as i had described in my last post (if you'd be so kind to just erase the 'offending' part and re-read it please).
I guess we need to ask NEW rules that are clear enough so we don't debate endless without a solid base to fall back to.
I can't say that my perception is 100% correct ,but we are in the same situation together, because there are no exact, precise and non-ambiguos type of rules.
By definition ALL digital art is welcome here, and i have been with a break-in-half headache, but it served to clear my thoughts and i 've come to this thought....
-What comes next is only a thought and have no validity as i am in no position to do that--
------------
...After all this nonsense misunderstanding we've had these days , it has happened in the past more than 10-20+ times ...so it's clear that something is causing that -and not anyone of us, really-.
I truly believe,
1.- All digital art should be welcome at this forum because the name implies so.
2.-This confussion comes for the motive and purpose, to protecting the ones who do digital paintings.
3.- SO, the easiest solution would be to open a subforum called DIGITAL PAINTING and nothing else goes there but what the title says.
--------------

What do you think of this approach ?
do you think it would be fair to all ?
would you support this as a formal proposal to our leaders take into consideration for this change taking place in the near future ?

That's the best i could come up with...
Pleaase answer to thi, and add whatever you feel necessary for getting peace back in the forum..
I'll go and lay down for a while, and i'll get back to you after the pills take over...

Good luck and lots of love...

Regards


:cool:

Michael
06-02-2004, 09:52 PM
This thread has really bocome extremely intriguing to me.

First, I would like to disagree with Jorge on a point. I don't believe we need another forum for the digital arts. Reason? I think another forum would just serve to drive the existing wedge even deeper and seperate us even farther apart. As a community we are individuals. As individuals we contribute uniquely to this community.

This forum is a forum in its own right..Digital Art, and all the name implies. All that needs be done is just tell how we did something and what was used if someone is curious about it. I believe that is all that is needed here, after all, the techniques used here are really tools that are powerful in the Asylum also.

Now, The Digital manipulations forum, or as I call it, the Asylum. It is NOT a forum in its own right, it is a sub-forum of the Photography forum. As such, technically, much of what is posted there does not belong there. Once you change a photograph so much that it no longer resembles the original feel or content of the photograph it really is no longer a photo manip, but starts to cross over into the realms of individual art! No matter what the "rules" say or imply.

I will always pipe in and tell people that they are welcome over at the Asylum. There is a bit of selfishness on my part for that. I want to see the forum thrive and continue with the fresh ideas and techniques that only come with the unique thoughts of a new individual artist. The other reason I always tell people they are welcome there? I want them to feel welcome there.

Well, now we have too broad ideas of what each forum is for, and I really feel we should leave it a broad idea. After all, it is the new thought and styles that we all learn from. I think that there should be the cross posting between the two forums, it is a wealth of imagination we can all draw on.

The two forums are unique from every other in WC in another respect. We don't just do watercolors, oil, acrylic, charcoal, pencil, colored pencil, pen and ink, and so on...but, quite uniquely, we encompass them all. We even have our debates, and healthy ones at that.

Just my thoughts. And as a last thought, I really think this turned into a wonderful thread. Just look at the individuality and ideas in this one thread alone :D

All just my opinion of course. And now..I better hush before this does get moved to the debate thread...LOL :p

Jin
06-03-2004, 12:29 AM
Jet,

Hopefully when you read this, your headache is a thing of the past. Headaches are a pain in the.. well, you know. I hate 'em.

I agree with Michael that creating another forum will only cause more division (duh!) and, I think, confusion as well.

It's unnecessary.

In addition, creating a forum for "Digital Painting" won't solve the issue at all.

When I paint or draw using Painter's Clone painting feature, I'm doing digital painting.

When I paint or draw, then apply surface texture using Effects > Surface Control > Apply Surface texture (Painter's "filters"), I've still done digital painting.

When I add texture using a brush variant that picks up Paper texture, even if that Paper is photo bases, I've still done digital painting.

If I paint using a Pattern that's based on a photo, I've done digital painting.

The list of examples could go on and on, but suffice it to say, most images created in Painter contain some digital painting, though surely not all of them.

Several images displayed here in this forum recently were done using vectors. Those are technically not digital paintings, but they certainly are artworks created digitally (digital art) and it would make no sense to me if the forum guidelines ruled them out.

I'm not new here, but haven't posted much until recently since the first time or two a year or more back when I recieved absolutely no response at all. Frankly, I wasn't interested enough to bother coming back to even read for a long time after that. Lately, it's been more interesting so I've been reading the threads more often and have become bold enough to insert my thoughts now and then.

Whatever is decided, if anything is, it's not a big deal to me personally, though it would be nice to see it resolved for everyone's sake.

Apparently it is something that needs to be dealt with because it's causing problems for your community, hard feelings, and members who don't feel comfortable participating.

That's just plain a waste for everyone, especially for those who provide these forums and work hard to keep them going. The rest of us always have the option to go elsewhere.

What seems to have become a big thing, really isn't at all. It should be easy to solve by simply welcoming all kinds of artwork created digitally in this forum (within the bounds of good taste, common sense, and respecting copyrights, that is). If people prefer to share their manipulated/enhanced photos in the Photo Manipulation forum (or whatever it's named), they can do that.

There are too many ways of doing digital art to create a new forum for each one, for half of them, or for even a quarter of them.

My fingers are getting tired of typing, so here's where I sign off for a while. ;)

P.S.

Nice post, Michael! Full of common sense, upbeat, and a pleasure to read. Thanks!

Lorijayne
06-03-2004, 04:45 AM
This is turninig out to be a very informative discussion. Jinny, your post should be an Article. I have printed it out and will use it as reference. We live in exciting times as we explore new and ever-changing technologies available to us as artists. I can imagine some similar dialogues happening between the Renaissance artists as they explored their tools. I can identify with Julia Margaret Cameron as she created Art out of tool of photography in the 19th century.

This being said, I've changed my mind and will continue to post my art here because it belongs here, the "rules" be hanged.

I am going to start a new thread with a new piece called The Hand of Fatima. I am not posting it in PhotoManip because it contains no original photos that I took. It belongs here, not there. It is a good piece that could be better, so I will solicit constructive comments on composition, color harmony, style, and technique (especially where it is relative to Photoshop). Having studied art for many years, I am capable of accepting suggestions for improvement from mature artists, despite a comment made to the contrary earlier in this thread. Such suggestions are useful; back-handed comments, no matter how many emoticons follow them, are not useful or welcome.

As I said, this thread has been very informative. Lori

Jet
06-03-2004, 04:58 AM
OK guys that HA is gone, i don't wanna say its name and think i'm calling it back... :p
--
I saw this essay some time ago and it clears things to a point. Please read it.

------------Great essay, sure is appropiate for our chat----------a duplicate is posted at.http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jun-2004/27782-Datt-Logo-1.gif

....................http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/03-Jun-2004/27782-moca.jpg (http://moca.virtual.museum/editorial/jdessay.htm)


Regards

peoplepainter
06-03-2004, 06:55 AM
Can I weigh in? Only my opinion, but I think anything digitally created belongs here.
My only suggestion so that we can all learn something is to describe how it was done-----very briefly. I know it really helps me. When I see what program was used, whether a tablet or mouse, from a photo or INCLUDING a photo image, I can better understand the final piece in light of the "tools" that go into it. It better defines the skills required. If it is Photo-manip, so? Is the design speaking? The technique? The uniqueness? Something else?
All of these things matter I think but not as to whether they are digital art or not. They are things to consider when appreciating the piece. Do I appreciate the strokes, the composition, the lighting, the technique, the effort, the color, the message? What were you trying to accomplish with your piece? Knowing where the artist came from is important and I so appreciate those who teach by telling us what they REALLY did in a work of art, digital or otherwise.

If you have a purpose for your art and you have a reason for sharing it, you should never be embarrassed or hide how you did it.

Does that make sense?

Great posts on this topic.
Lisa

baquitania
06-04-2004, 02:45 AM
This is a very good discussion. And although I don't agree with some of it, I'd like to think that this is "our" forum, and we as a whole "do" decide what happens to it. That said, I am open to any ideas of what you want included... but certain things should be clear...

The Digital Manipulations Forum, was created because Photography at the time was a single place. Only when those posters felt they needed different sections, did the change happen to accomodate them. This is why work done altering a photograph with computer software had a specific spot to post in.

Some may see this as seperation, but it is not. It is about inclusion for those who felt they didn't have anywhere to show what they liked to do. That said, Lorijayne, post all you like here... we're not forcing you to move, it was merely a suggestion incase you didn't know about it.

On another note, if we look at other Digital Art boards, they do have divisions that help run it more effectively. People looking for certain works know where to start. I don't think it would be off putting to have a Digital Painting subforum, or ask if the DM forum would like to join with us as well...

Before any of that happens, I think we all need to sit down and discuss what would be the right change if any for us. If you like we can make an official poll, and I will bring the suggestions up with Scott.

Keep talking please...

Bobby

Jet
06-04-2004, 11:18 AM
Hated seeing the post made by Jorge...in my thread. Reviewed all his posts in that forum, 95% were results from actual photo's.. none from a blank canvas... Only of late. None of his were ever questioned nor was he asked to move them. Why??? as are Joel's, he also overpaints some of his. Please understand, none of this matters to me, think their work is wonderful and enjoy viewing it. But to be publicly embarrassed by being told to move on.... is just not acceptable to me. Especially when they are doing the same thing and so are others.


Sorry I had missed this reply from GoldCoin...

Thanks Goldcoin for bringing up that infamous thread i started with all my photomanipulations at this forum...
I won't say i was naive and dumb, i'll say that i was a newbie..and as a newbie, i didn't read the rules and was showing off my works,... and i kept on and on , just because nobody told me i was at the wrong place, until TeAnne (love you wherever you are) who was a guide at that time, cut in and just did her job and i replied to her suggestion....see below

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jun-2004/27782-itsawrap1.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Jun-2004/27782-itsawrap2.jpg

She didn't embarrass me in public, i felt embarrased for not having read the rules as i was informed, soon after signing up at WC.

My reply was in complete ebedience and respect....

Thanks for bringing that up...although it reminds me of one red-face moment among many i've had at this beautiful community.

Regards

Lorijayne
06-04-2004, 12:31 PM
i didn't read the rules

Just a point of clarification: ARE there really "rules" posted for this forum? Maybe they are right in front of me and don't see them, but can someone point them out to me? Thanks.

Lori