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View Full Version : Question to the pastel makers???


IndigoRed
05-20-2004, 09:55 PM
I have bought a pound of ultramarine blue, to make pastels. When i mixed this with distilled water (at first) it became kinda stringy. It acts not like the other pigments i have experimented with. Its almost like i added water to tempera powder. It became congealed (?spelling) like. when i mixed this with tit. white to make a tint, it started to work out ok and roll into a pastel.

Did i get some kind of funky ultramarine pigment or is it supposed to act like this?

Thank you

Kitty Wallis
05-21-2004, 01:45 AM
Ultramarine Blue is notorious for it's poor handling qualities. The good news is it dries into an intensely blue velvety pastel with a perfect stroke. The bad news is it acts like silly putty while it's wet. Clench some in your fist and it feels hard, open your hand and it drips thru your fingers. Make it into a stick and it slumps into a puddle. Mix it with chalk and all it's handling problems disappear.

Khadres
05-21-2004, 08:19 AM
Ultramarine Blue is notorious for it's poor handling qualities. The good news is it dries into an intensely blue velvety pastel with a perfect stroke. The bad news is it acts like silly putty while it's wet. Clench some in your fist and it feels hard, open your hand and it drips thru your fingers. Make it into a stick and it slumps into a puddle. Mix it with chalk and all it's handling problems disappear.

This sounds like a great magician's act! Geex, where does one even BUY a pound of ultramarine???

IndigoRed
05-21-2004, 09:03 AM
Thanks Kitty! I was starting to worry. i knew it hand handling problem but i never read anything about it acting like silly putty but thats exactly how it acts. I went ahead and continued my experiment with it and it dried into a nice hard pastel in just minutes! so i am still happy i spents the extra bux to get this color.

Khadres, daniel smith will sell it to you by the pound but you have to call in a special order as they do not sell by the pound on their site. you can also get really good pigments from Kremer, i dont have their website right off hand, but i have ordered from them and i like their selection.

I need to update my post on making pastels, but ive been so busy, im surprised i could find my way to the computer so i could post this topic.
:o

Kitty Wallis
05-21-2004, 03:36 PM
Khadres, daniel smith will sell it to you by the pound but you have to call in a special order as they do not sell by the pound on their site. you can also get really good pigments from Kremer, i dont have their website right off hand, but i have ordered from them and i like their selection. :o

There are other pigment suppliers to artists:
Guerra Paint and Pigments, NYC, 212 529 0628. They sell pigments and pigment dispersions, like Createx Pure pigment. Theirs are a little thicker, like honey.
Robert Doak, Brooklyn NY 718 237 1210 or 0146. He also makes pastels for artists.
Kremer has higher prices than some since they specialize in original pigments, used in conservation. www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/homee.htm

IndigoRed
05-21-2004, 03:48 PM
Yea createx pure pigments are great i got mine from Dixieart.com they are the cheapest ive found.

I actually get my pigments from a company in canada and another company thats in the usa. But i only stick to the two because the pigment sources vary and you can run into problems matching up pigments of the same color.
So far ive gotten about 35 differant pigments and they are all fabulous. but now im having to figure out how to make more work space. Ive got about 40 new pastels made and they are all very nice , and i use velour, suede, pastel paper, sanded pastel paper, pastel board to experiment with them. and i havent be disapointed yet. (except with one black but thats a long story)
as soon as i can get my digital camera installed i will start posting pictures.

Khadres
05-21-2004, 10:44 PM
Sounds fascinating! I really am looking forward to Kitty's class at the expo! What type of pigments do you use to formulate your moist pastels, Kitty? I have this awful worry that all mine will turn out grey/mud. Do you have "recipes" or ratios for the colors you're trying for? Or is it all just trial and error?

Kitty Wallis
05-21-2004, 11:59 PM
Sounds fascinating! I really am looking forward to Kitty's class at the expo! What type of pigments do you use to formulate your moist pastels, Kitty? I have this awful worry that all mine will turn out grey/mud. Do you have "recipes" or ratios for the colors you're trying for? Or is it all just trial and error?

I've searched the globe for the pigments that are the cleanest in color and make good pastels using the least additives. Testing went on for a year.

No worries, I have a method for thwarting mud. I keep all the color families segregated on separate tables. And I put my foot down at experimenting. It's easy to make mud. I want people to go home with dazzling clean colors. they can make mud on their own time. :)

bogbeast
05-22-2004, 02:03 AM
Cool!!!

The more I do pastels, and hear about making your own, the more intrigued I get! Kitty, I can't make it to the expo--especially at current gas prices here!--Can you suggest sources of info on "how to do it"? or will you be in the Bay area any time to do more workshops?

Thhanks!

Libby

Khadres
05-22-2004, 05:32 AM
I've searched the globe for the pigments that are the cleanest in color and make good pastels using the least additives. Testing went on for a year.

No worries, I have a method for thwarting mud. I keep all the color families segregated on separate tables. And I put my foot down at experimenting. It's easy to make mud. I want people to go home with dazzling clean colors. they can make mud on their own time. :)

Wow! You are truly intrepid, now that I think of it, to even attempt to teach a bunch of neophytes such an arcane thing! Sounds like I will definitely need my WC apron for this one. :cool:

Kitty Wallis
05-22-2004, 04:02 PM
Libby, I have no plans for coming to the Bay area soon. I am having another Color Intensive here in Portland in Sept 17-20. This one will emphasize the skills and color knowledge needed to paint waterscapes. We will end with a day of making pastel sticks.

Sooz, you will need the apron And clothes you don't mind getting full of pastel since my pastels are Pure pigment; messier than store bought pastels.

Lisa Maria
05-22-2004, 04:48 PM
it's my dream to make pastels.. where I live it's impossible to get the materials... though I could buy... a great book... I'd like to recomend it...

The Materials and Techniques of Painting
Kurt Wehlte
Kremer

It's very complete ... talks about pigments, their nomenclature, origin, chemical composition, permanence, compatibility, fastness to media, tinting strength.. also about almost any technique, from wall to easel painting... though it has almost no illustrations..

I bought it from this site:
www.sinopia.com

they also sell kremer pigments...

Khadres
05-23-2004, 02:13 PM
it's my dream to make pastels.. where I live it's impossible to get the materials... though I could buy... a great book... I'd like to recomend it...

The Materials and Techniques of Painting
Kurt Wehlte
Kremer

It's very complete ... talks about pigments, their nomenclature, origin, chemical composition, permanence, compatibility, fastness to media, tinting strength.. also about almost any technique, from wall to easel painting... though it has almost no illustrations..

I bought it from this site:
www.sinopia.com

they also sell kremer pigments...

Wow! Thanks for that link! FASCINATING place!
Recipes too!

Frcontr
05-24-2004, 04:45 AM
Here is a list of all the things I found when I was researching out pigment suppliers. I hope this helps.

PIGMENT SUPPLIERS:

http://www.guerrapaint.com/faq.html#GRI

http://www.europeanclassicdesigns.com/actinic/Dry_Pigments.html

http://www.reuels.com/reuels/product31833.html for schmienke pigments

http://www.kamapigment.com/index_en.html also has a good selection of house brand oil pastels

http://www.clevelandpigment.com/default.htm

http://www.jacksonsart.com/acatalog/Dry_Pigments___Other_Sizes.html British art supply

http://www.sinopia.com/~sinopia/cgi-bin/cart.cgi/index.html carry many brands but mainly maimeri

http://www.williamsburgoilpaint.bizland.com/

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.maimeri.it/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmaimeri%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG website explaining maimeri pitments

http://aswexpress.com/search/?Search=pigment carry maimeri, Lukus, and Sennelier

http://www.dickblick.com/categories/pigments/

http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/homee.htm

http://www.danielsmith.net/cgi-bin/sgsh0113.exe

FACTS ABOUT PIGMENTS:

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/earthp.html

http://www.sanders-studios.com/instruction/tutorials/historyanddefinitions/pigmentchem.html


RECIPES AND TUTORIALS:

http://www.noteaccess.com/MATERIALS/PastelM.htm


http://www.mauigateway.com/~donjusko/pastels.htm This is of our ladies here on wetcanvas.

Khadres
05-24-2004, 12:53 PM
Just out of idle curiosity....just how far does, say, a 2 oz. container of dry pigment go in making pastels? Say I wanted a range of five pure pigment tones of one color....full strength, one darker shade, and three lighter tints--average size pastels. Would a 2 oz. jar (along with binders, extenders, etc. of course) make this many? Just trying to get a handle on how much goes how far.

Frcontr
05-24-2004, 02:53 PM
It makes several, but then it depends on which pigment you choose. some are more dense than others. This makes some weigh more at lesser volumes. For your first attmpts and to practice I would get a lesser expensive colored pigment to work with. The siennas are good to start with.

Kitty Wallis
05-24-2004, 04:28 PM
Just out of idle curiosity....just how far does, say, a 2 oz. container of dry pigment go in making pastels? Say I wanted a range of five pure pigment tones of one color....full strength, one darker shade, and three lighter tints--average size pastels. Would a 2 oz. jar (along with binders, extenders, etc. of course) make this many?

It probably would. Pigments vary in volume wet and volume dry. All of them make a smaller pile when wet. Some a MUCH smaller pile. I don't use Diarylide (anyone know how to pronounce that?) Yellow for that reason.

Your full strength and darker shade pastels will need enough to make 2 sticks of pure pigment, since you use Very little black to make a darker stick. Or you can use an extender for an almost pure stick. Your tints can be made with one pure stick, diluted in steps to all the tints, from 50% white, almost pure strength, to the lightest shade.

The sticks dry lighter so stop when you think you could go one more. They also shrink a bit when they dry, so make them stubby not pencil thin, with flat ends, not points. Points break right off as soon as you use them.

Kitty Wallis
05-24-2004, 04:35 PM
It makes several, but then it depends on which pigment you choose. some are more dense than others. This makes some weigh more at lesser volumes. For your first attmpts and to practice I would get a lesser expensive colored pigment to work with. The siennas are good to start with.

Since earth tones are so easy to find ready made, I suggest a slightly more adventurous start. Pthalo Green and Burnt Umber. This makes the quintessential DARK warm olive green on everyone's wish list. Do not grind the Pthalo green pigment, the more you grind it the harder the finished stick. Try one stick first with no binder, this stick should be hard enough as is. If your pigments make a stick that doesn't hold together when dry, and there is no way to predict this for sure, then add some binder.

Khadres
05-24-2004, 04:50 PM
Sounds scary! I'll wait and do the class first! :rolleyes:

Funny, I never was tempted to make my own paints, but the idea of making pastels sounds intriguing. Nice to know that there ARE some resources still out there. I think if I'm ever reincarnated as a human again, I want to try art restoration/conservation as a 9-5 job. Fascinating.

Kitty Wallis
05-24-2004, 05:39 PM
Sounds scary! I'll wait and do the class first! :rolleyes:


I didn't mean to scare you but to give you an exciting project. It's easier than making biscuits, more like making mudpies.

I bow to Frcontr, you had a the right idea.

Frcontr
05-24-2004, 06:39 PM
It's me who is in awe of you Kitty.

My son took my latest drawing class with me. He hated pastels until he tried your paper.

Khadres
05-27-2004, 08:07 AM
I didn't mean to scare you but to give you an exciting project. It's easier than making biscuits, more like making mudpies.

I bow to Frcontr, you had a the right idea.

Mudpies I can do! But you just said you wouldn't ALLOW us to do mud! ;)

Beautifully colored mudpies....a play doh kid's dream!

IndigoRed
06-04-2004, 12:22 AM
Awwwww! Ive missed so much! I didnt get one email about any of these posts and they are very interesting! Ive been so busy, i have now excluded extenders and fillers that i feel are not usefull and ive totally gotten rid of the binder solution using just 75% distilled water and 25% alcohol (for organic pigments) The pastels dry so quick using this wetting solution.I have pictures :clap: ........tho the one with the actual pastel samples are to bright :rolleyes: ...
But i still have a long way to go , with each pigment im am learning so much....I do have one confession tho........I had a new set of unisons , hadnt had a chance to try them til i tested them against my pastels....i did one small painting with each.......safe to say....i sold my unisons......now i know theres some of yas that are going :eek: ........but i feel that the only pastels i need that are manufactured are the Nupastels......but only because of their ability to be sharpened....i still have my pastel pencils.....and ill still use them.....but when it comes to soft/semi soft pastels.....im stickin to the ones im makin.......ive even come up with a recipe for soft pastels that will grab onto the nap of suede and velour .....and for those that wonder why i need a pastel to do this is because some soft pastels (sennelier being the worst) the pigment would not "grab" onto the nap....it seemed to float...it went on like butter (drool)...but the end result would be that if ya bumped it just a tiny bit the stuff fell of.....so i had to come up with a recipe that stopped that ....<insert golf clap here>
Im proud of what im achieving even if it has taken me 5 years to get where i am now.........but i no have the ability to make my own pastels, oil paints, acrylics, and watercolors.....(tho i doubt i will make anymore of the last two as im not to crazy about them) i only tried a couple of colors just to see if i could do it.......and it is very possible.....but time consuming..

The first pic is of my first wire rack of jar pigments, theres about 32 jars on this rack and i have to get another to hold the rest that i have on a shelf behind the rack.....the second is of my work station (its small but i am only makin these for me at the moment so its very practical) ......the third is of gray velour that im using to test my "Bite Pastels" (for velour and suede, the suede test board is in another room)... you can see the tiny pastel samples ive made (today)...about five of them are already dry but i still wait at least another day before a final test on support.....my very last test is the lightfastness test which wont be for some time yet until i get at least one sample stick of each pigment made....

Well it took me a little over a year to get this all up here like promised...sorry if it isnt much...alot of stuff is in another room which my husband is currently in with the other computer.....sigh...

Let me know what ya think.........

IndigoRed
06-04-2004, 12:24 AM
Ummmmm they didnt stick........how do ya get pictures to post on here.......i dont have them on a website....they are on my desktop ...could someone lend me a hand :D

thanks

Kitty Wallis
06-04-2004, 03:23 AM
Ummmmm they didnt stick........how do ya get pictures to post on here.......i dont have them on a website....they are on my desktop ...could someone lend me a hand :D

thanks


My pictures don't stick when I forget to hit the button that says 'upload' after I've browsed and chosen and opened.

Well done on the pastel making. I'm very pleased you are so happy with your colors. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

IndigoRed
06-04-2004, 09:01 AM
Ah i just didnt see the Manage attatchment button at the bottom , theres an Insert image up at the top but i dont have any url's to use.....
The pics are a bit on the awkward side :D