ADCook

[eyeburp]

I read the article on your web page about creating an ultra smooth canvas. Have you tried spraying gesso through a larger spray gun? Someone told me that you can get rid of the canvas texture that way also but I haven't tried it yet.

[Caterwallin']

I read AD's article awhile back when I was searching for ideas on how to smooth a canvas! I can't remember where I found the idea that I currently use but it works well!

I start with Liquitex modeling paste spread on the new canvas with a "bondo" style plastic spreader. Let the first coat dry, dry sand, and apply another coat. Then I use a smooth roller (Home Depot) and roll on the gesso! I will wet sand the gesso between coats using 350 grit. I will usually apply three coats of gesso. Finish sanding with a wet 600 grit, lightly. The result is glass smooth (almost! LOL!)

I'm very interested with spraying the gesso on! I was first told of this technique by Ken Willhite (Australian Airbrush Co: http://www.geocities.com/airbrush_ken/ ) back in January.

I'm very interested!

Sam

[Milo]

I haven't tried it yet, I want to try both AD's method and there was a spay on example in the video Air-Experince video (part of making a nice space painting and other things on the video too).

Milo

[ADCook]

I read the article on your web page about creating an ultra smooth canvas. Have you tried spraying gesso through a larger spray gun? Someone told me that you can get rid of the canvas texture that way also but I haven't tried it yet.

Sure, I've sprayed gesso through spray guns and that's one option to preparing canvas for airbrush.

The process we use comes through years of working out a system that results in a glass-smooth surface without spaying. Spraying does leave a different kind of surface, which is fine if that's what you want. It doesn't hide the texture as well unless you put on lots of coats, and too much gesso creates risky results. The process I outline on my site < http://www.adcookfineart.com/aa-article-canvasprep.html > actually works the gesso into the canvas making it part of the canvas, rather than just spraying, which doesn't push the gesso into the canvas the same way - rather, the gesso is actually sitting on the surface. The process I outline on my site is just one of many options, but one one that offers great results, and is easy to do. It also has the advantage of creating the surface you want without having to use a big spray gun and large compressor. Anyone can do it with gesso, a 50 cent vinyl squeegee, and some sandpaper. I work large, so spraying would create a huge mess. My process probably takes a little longer than spraying, but I believe the effort is worth it.

If you saw one of my prepared canvas up close you'd have a hard time believing it is even canvas. Even veteran artist friends still insist I'm laminating a smooth surface to my canvas, but it's all gesso.

Mine is just one of many processes available. Experiment and find the one that works best for you. If you're going to spray though, make sure you do lots of light coats rather than a couple heavy ones. Whatever the process, gesso should be applied light and allowed to thoroughly dry between coats to avoid cracking (a undesirable result often created by the outside drying at a much faster rate than the underlying surface).

An as my old friend Jurek used to say to me, don't spend more time prepping canvas than you do creating art.

A.D.

[eyeburp]

I had tried the modeling paste approach a while ago but was warned that because of the stretched canvas not being rigid enough it may have a tendency to peel or chip off. I'm watching my first one to see what happens (if anything) before I continue using that method.

I think I'm just lazy and not looking forward to all the sanding. Thanks for info. BTW, any problems with all that sanding at the stretcher bars?

[ADCook]

I had tried the modeling paste approach a while ago but was warned that because of the stretched canvas not being rigid enough it may have a tendency to peel or chip off. I'm watching my first one to see what happens (if anything) before I continue using that method.

I think I'm just lazy and not looking forward to all the sanding. Thanks for info. BTW, any problems with all that sanding at the stretcher bars?

I personally wouldn't use modeling paste to try to create a smooth finish. In reality if you go the route I outlined in the article (with gesso) there really isn't much sanding, and that, for the most anyway, is wet-sanding (which is fast and dust-free). To prep a 4x5 foot canvas has maybe 20-30 minutes of wet-sanding time and only another 5 minutes at the end of dry-sanding to create a light scuff, and that's with a 20 square foot canvas.

[Caterwallin']

I'm going to try AD's method on my next canvas!

I had tried the modeling paste approach a while ago but was warned that because of the stretched canvas not being rigid enough it may have a tendency to peel or chip off.

Yikes! Eyeburp! That scares me! I was told by Liquitex it would not chip or peel! But if it will, I don't want to take any chances!

According to your source, how thick does the modeling paste have to be before it will crack, chip, or peel? How long does it take before I can expect to see chipping or cracking? Will it be chipping or cracking with just the normal flexing in the frame? Or, is that if you roll the canvas? Did this happen on all of their paintings that they used the modeling paste?

Sorry for all the questions! Please ask your source though, I have to much at stake here! I'm not going to be happy if my paintings begin to chip or crack!

Sam

[eyeburp]

I've been all over the place online so I'm not even sure who told me that. Maybe they didn't mix the paste with any gel medium? I don't know. Whoever it was strongly advised against it though. Mine hasn't had any problems yet (only about 6 months). I've been painting on masonite in the meantime. But now I think I'm gonna try ADCook's method for canvas.

I'm not sure of any time frame and we were talking about stretched canvas not rolled. I do remember that they felt a good layer of varnish may help hold everything in place.

I've also been told that linen is smoother than canvas, but I haven't had the pleasure of trying it yet since I still have a lot of blank stretched canvas to work through.

[Caterwallin']

Thanks EB,

I'm not going to use the modeling paste anymore if there's even the slightest chance it could peel, crack, or chip!

Sam

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

A mysterious voice floats into the thread.....


"uuuuuse Crescent 92088888888888!" ooooooooh.

No chips, no cracks, no peels, no preps, no worries!

hehehehehhe




Tim

[ADCook]

A mysterious voice floats into the thread.....

"uuuuuse Crescent 92088888888888!" ooooooooh.

No chips, no cracks, no peels, no preps, no worries!

hehehehehhe

Tim

Tim, true enough. Illustration board is always a surface to paint on, but on the other side of the coin... with canvas you get;

• Availability in larger sizes - canvas can be purchased or stretched to just about any size allowing you to work large – certainly larger than most available illustration boards.
• Higher potential sales ($) - Art on canvas appeals to people as “fine art”, whereas art created on illustration board or some other surfaces have the perception of being illustrations. Collectors of art see the value as greater when a painting is created on canvas.
• Canvas can be prepared to your satisfaction, allowing you to paint on the surface you want.
• Canvas is durable. Paintings produced on canvas have the proven potential to last hundreds of years.
• Canvas doesn’t have to be framed under glass like art created on illustration board. In, fact, it doesn't have to be famed at all if you don't want to. You can paint the edges, add a wire and hang the art.

No one is disputing the value of good illustration board as a viable surface. In fact, it's great, but there are other options out there. Canvas is just one of them. Of course, you could paint on Gatorboard too.... no prep required for acylics. It comes in 4' x 8' sheets and is a lot like painting on illustration board, but as far as most buyers of [fine] art goes (in my experience anyway), they want canvas.

A.D.

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

A.D.,

How many years would you guess a piece of art done on acid-free illustration board covered with several (say 3) coats of clear acrylic would last if kept out of very humid areas?

Would the paper break down after 100 years? 200? 300? If it is acid-free does that mean it will not break down chemically (ie., inert)? Is there any historical data to even make a guess?


I agree that canvas has a tradition and perception counts when $ is concerned.

Another question, your "blue girl" painting (argggg forgive... I forget the title) but did you coat it with some finish after you were done and if so, what was it?


Also, regarding that same painting, can you bend the canvas w/o it cracking or does it have to remain sturdy and straight? I want my art to remain straight because I feel any bending at all is a bad thing for artwork.


One last idea: if you coat your art with acrylic clear then you can frame it w/o glass, yes? If so, that sort of negates ONE of your "canvas advantage" points, right? Or is there something wrong with that idea. I framed my 4th portrait by just putting a cardboard backing on the illustration board (which was covered with about 3 coats of clear acrylic) and putting it all in a frame w/staples.

I'm a real newbie about the nuts n bolts of materials so that is why I am asking.


Thanks,
Tim

[AlpineAirbrush]

Hi gang, I just got back from A.D.'s Airbrush Seminar over in Portland OR. and saw this post.

First let me say that on a scale of 1 to 5, (5 being the greatest Airbrush experience of my life ) I'd have to rate A.D.'s class somewhere around a 10!!!
If there's any way you can get over there for his next class , JUST DO IT !

As far as the canvas process is concerned, if you want to feel what one of those prepared canvases feel like.......well, there is a way, via modern technology, and global communication, to do this. It's kinda tricky, so stay with me as we do this one high-tech step at a time.

O.K. here we go:

Step # 1. Take your fingers off the keyboard. ( Relax!)

Step # 2. Place your finger tips on the glass part of your monitor. (Getting spooky huh ??)

Step # 3. Move your hand back and forth across the screen* (Isn't technology wonderful! )

*note: If your screen is dusty you really won't get the full effect. ;)

Anyway, that's about the best I can describe it. It's not a difficult process nor an expensive one, and the final step in the process gives the canvas just enough tooth to to hold the paint.

Can't wait to start to preping some canvases this week myself. :cool:

[ADCook]

A.D.,

How many years would you guess a piece of art done on acid-free illustration board covered with several (say 3) coats of clear acrylic would last if kept out of very humid areas?

Would the paper break down after 100 years? 200? 300? If it is acid-free does that mean it will not break down chemically (ie., inert)? Is there any historical data to even make a guess?

I agree that canvas has a tradition and perception counts when $ is concerned.

Another question, your "blue girl" painting (argggg forgive... I forget the title) but did you coat it with some finish after you were done and if so, what was it?

Also, regarding that same painting, can you bend the canvas w/o it cracking or does it have to remain sturdy and straight? I want my art to remain straight because I feel any bending at all is a bad thing for artwork.

One last idea: if you coat your art with acrylic clear then you can frame it w/o glass, yes? If so, that sort of negates ONE of your "canvas advantage" points, right? Or is there something wrong with that idea. I framed my 4th portrait by just putting a cardboard backing on the illustration board (which was covered with about 3 coats of clear acrylic) and putting it all in a frame w/staples.

I'm a real newbie about the nuts n bolts of materials so that is why I am asking.

Thanks,
Tim

Tim,

First off, sorry for the delay in getting back to WC (been playing catch-up all week).

I'll start from the top - you have a long list going here:

I'm guessing acid-free illustration board stored properly will last a very long time - certainly longer than you or I. I'm not a scientist, but it stands to reason. Certainly, there is art on non acid-free paper that has been around for a very long time. Da Vinci's drawing are still in tact and they were done on far less... buuuuuut, on the other hand, there's no way to verify it either. Technology, in some ways, might compromise the surface in ways we are not yet aware of. There most likely is historical data available from the paper manufacturers (I'm guessing), but that information is based on scientific assumptions to some degree, and possibly tainted with adversing copy before it gets to us. It's not like acid-free illustration board has been around for hundreds of years for anyone to say one way or the other as fact.

The blue girl painting [Twilight] is cleared with a Golden brand UV Varnish sprayed onto the surface with an Iwata W-100 equipped with a fan nozzle. All my paintings are cleared when finished. Airbrush art is fragile regardless of the surface.

I can't speak as to how canvas will react in regards to bending it. I don't remove art from stretcher bars on a regular basis, and if I do it's just to re-stretch it for some reason, and I make every attempt to not bend a finished painting. I can tell you though, when I did the Hollywood Video murals (on stretched canvas), we would remove them from the studio wall, roll them around a 5" diameter PVC tube, transport them to a new store location, and install them on a wall. While those were much larger (usually 10 feet tall x 8-20 feet wide), they were prepared in a 'similar' fashion. The mural was always rolled into itself to protect the art during transport and to ensure that it didn't crack in the process. I agree with you that there is no upside to having your finished art bend (better to bend your imagination than your art). Canvas does have some flex (especially compared to illustration board), but it's negligible, and the process as outlined doesn't compromise that. Essentially, bending is bad, flex is normal - regardless of whether we're talking canvas or illustration board.

Regarding your final statement... "if you coat your art with acrylic clear then you can frame it w/o glass, yes? If so, that sort of negates ONE of your "canvas advantage" points, right?" I guess my response would be... Sure, you can do that. I personally wouldn't display unprotected art on illustration board (thoughts of pizza-fingered kids run through my mind) but there's nothing saying you can't do it with yours. Ultimately, you can paint on anything you like, protect it however you like and sell it to anyone you like. There are many ways to skin a cat. I only tried to offer one possible way with the canvas prep. If, after all is said and done, illustration board works best for you, then by all means paint on illustration board. I worked on illustration board for years. I don't have any problem with illustration board. Illustrators certainly love it. Collectors of my art, over the years, have expressed a preference for canvas, and they feel the art is more valuable to them because it's on canvas. They don't necessarily want their art behind glass, and many of them do have kids. Now, I'm sure if all I did was art on illustration board someone would by it. I know guys who do quite well with art on illustration board. But again, I personally like to work large (much larger than any available illustration board), and that's were the canvas prep process evolved.

The points of not putting glass on canvas is three-fold; added cost and weight plus the benefit not having glass between the viewer and the art. Canvas is ideal for this.

Over the course of time we could negate all my canvas points, but there are eight listed and I have a painting to get started. They are, after all, just points, and regardless of whether you work on canvas or illustration board, short of abuse or nuclear disaster, all the art we create today will hopefully survive us anyway. If this process works for you, then use it. If you're comfortable with another surface us it instead.

P.S. The cardboard backing you're placing behind your acid-free art isn't acid-free, which will eventually compromise your acid-free board. You may want to look into something like foam-core instead.

My apologies if I got a little long winded. I certainly respect your position on illustration, and don't think it's something that has to be debated. It's really just a matter of personal preference.

A.D.

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

A.D.,

I appreciate the info and certainly respect your knowledge base and abilities and I am not debating in the "argue" since. I am asking to try and see what is what and I know you have way more info and experience than I.


Thanks again but one thing confuses me. If you cover your canvas art w/UV clear and hang w/o glass over it, how is it different than me hanging my art w/clear over it w/o glass? That part I am confused over. If a kid wipes pizza juice on mine, I take a moist rag and wipe it off. No damage done to the art.


Please help me if you can!!!!!

Thanks for posting the pic for the size reference! I'm sure it's way cool up close!


Thanks,
Tim

[Milo]

Something else I would like to interject, remember if you are selling your artwork. This goes beyond the longevity, did they coat with. Its also perceived value. Buyers like canvas, why.. because 'art' is on canvas (its such a subjective and fickle market out there). Does that mean art won't sell as well on another surface, no. Just your average person knows what a canvas is. Even the claybord is a solid piece but I think if you had two similar pieces side by side the 'canvas' would possibly draw more money (again this is just an opinion here and there are going to be exceptions in every case). It may be depending on who your audience is thats buying as well and what you want to do with the piece once its painted.

If you could paint a portrait for XX money on illustration board, but get XX + YY with the same thing on canvas because of the 'perceived' value that it being on canvas implies in the persons mind.. I am not sure if I am making any sense here.

Just a though to throw into the mix. If you like painting on it, the important thing is to paint as what is said above some like different surfaces its all good.

Milo

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

I understand! I do understand about the perception thing.

I wonder if I should give the buyers of portraits the option of board or canvas??? Charge 'em more just for canvas! hehehehehhe

It would be okay with me as long as I could get a good surface that didn't take me 2 hours of time to create. To me, that is just a long time fiddling with preparation. But I guess the selling price could justify it. I am so green in this area of materials and marketing. Ah, well. Gotta learn at some point. Hopefully everyone here can put up with my insistent questioning. :D



Man, I typed "since" instead of "sense". heheh Posting too quickly.

I will read AD's canvas prep info and see what is involved.

Thanks,
Tim

[ADCook]

I understand! I do understand about the perception thing.

I wonder if I should give the buyers of portraits the option of board or canvas??? Charge 'em more just for canvas! hehehehehhe


Tim,

You probably would get more for portraits on canvas (as you should), and offering them both as an option would be an excellent idea. Milo's statement about perceived value is very true, at least in my experience.

Regarding you "pizza" question; when you do art on canvas and clear it, everything is cleared... front and sides (canvas edges). When illustration board is cleared, usually the artist is clearing only the front, leaving vulnerable areas for moisture to enter the surface if cleaning with a damp rag, whether that be through the sides or even the back. Illustration board, being a paper product, is simply not as durable as canvas, and over time the illustration board may de-laminate or buckle (warp). One of primary reasons glass is typically used to protect art on paper is that it's safer and easier to clean glass rather than the actual art itself. Perhaps there is no perceived damage to your art by cleaning it as you mention, but I believe that done repeatedly you will see damage to the art. Only time will tell if that's really the case.

Keep in mind, that while I used pizza as an example, art is subject to damage from a lot of different elements; smoke (cooking, candles, fireplaces, cigarettes, cigars), insects (and whatever they leave behind - spider webs, bug crap, etc.), dust, moisture and humidity, cooking (food, spices), house cleaning agents, air fresheners, dust rags, pets, whatever. Over the course of time these things contribute to the deterioration of the art.

My apologies if I came across as debating or argumentative in my last communication. In re-reading it I can see how you may have thought that to be the case. That certainly wasn't my intent. I was just trying to drive home a point. I'm an artist, not a writer - sometimes trying to convey an idea comes across different in written word than intended.

Anyway, I hope you do at least try working on canvas at some point, both as you buy it off the shelf and as a prepared surface - my technique or another.

Best to you all,
A.D.

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

AD,

Thanks for the extra info! I thought you might think I was trying to show how much I know and trying to make some great point but anyway, I think sometimes we are not sure if the other is slightly irritated because some people take a lengthy post to mean they are mad. I don't though. I am used to typing long posts. So, thanks for the help and I will read your info on using canvas soon. Probably here in a few. Man... long day.


Thanks again!!!!


Tim

[eyeburp]

Tried your technique on a small canvas... WAHOOO!!!! Smooth like a baby's bottom! Thanks for the info. When I thought I had enough coats I did a couple more just to make sure before I sanded. Not using a paintbrush has really helped avoid a lot of texture from the beginning.

In my experience, illustrators use illustration board because:
1) there is no prep time
2) it is light and thin for shipping
3) it is cheap
4) it is disposable and starting over isn't a hassle
5) often times it is flexible or the surface can be removed from the backing to wrap around a drum scanner to avoid photography costs
6) it stores easily in flat files

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

Hello, eyeburp. Where do I remember you from on WC!? Is it the abstract forum?

Well, I guess like AD said, if you want a larger size than illustration board you probably need to use canvas. Just dragging from bed but I am going to see what his canvas prep involves.


Thanks,
Tim

[ADCook]

Eyeburp,

Glad to hear that you tried the canvas prep. The points you make regarding illustration board are true to be sure.

As you experiment more with the process, you'll find it to be very forgiving. If you get into a painting and decide to start over you can simply wet sand and apply more gesso again. Did you spray a color on as a primer? Just curious. I normally just spray mine with Golden Airbrush White, sometimes tinting it a bit with some color (depending on what I'm going to paint).

A.D.

[Paul Corfield]

I might give this technique a go too AD. I've done the same thing in the past on sheets of masonite with a few coats of gesso and wet sanding. The only difference being that there's no canvas texture to try and smooth out. Masonite is also heavier than canvas. I know oil paintings on masonite sell for just as much as their canvas counterparts so the only factor against a large masonite painting would be the weight.

Just a quick question, how do you ship a big canavas AD?

Thanks,

Paul.

[ADCook]

Just a quick question, how do you ship a big canavas AD?

Thanks,

Paul.

Paul,

We make our own boxes using 1/4" plywood and 3/4" trim for the sides - thickness varies depending on how many canvas we are shipping. The box is screwed together and then caulked on the inside (to protect the art from moisture). I make the box about 2" larger all around, so a 48" x 60" canvas would require a 52" x 64" box. I paint on 1-1/2" thick canvas so the box is about approx. 3-4" deep inside per painting. The art is then placed in a plastic bag (same one the canvas came in when we buy it). Then we wrapped it with bubble-wrap so the art is essentially suspended. Also, there is a heavy corrugated cardboard on both sides of the art after it's wrapped. It's lighter than plywood and offers great protection. If multiple paintings are going in the same box a cardboard divider is placed between each painting. Those cardboard dividers are the same size as the inside of the box ( a couple inches larger than the art itself. Might be overkill, but they get there safe.

The boxes are designed to ship vertically, and they are marked accordingly with "THIS SIDE UP" stickers and we make sure the shippers understand clearly that they are not to be laid flat. If the box has multiple paintings (which gets heavy) we put handle on the ends to make them easier to handle. Boxes this size often take a couple guys to move anyway, and delivery guys usually show up one man per truck.

We used to make the boxes out of 1/2 plywood, but they were unbelievably heavy to manage. I have one here that we use on occasion to transport art to shows and back that holds 4 paintings and it must weigh close to 100 pounds empty. We'll never make another one out of 1/2" again. That's way overkill. 1/4" works fine.

Also, just as a reminder, we insure everything heavily here. Shipping companies won't insure art for the values we declare, so we handle it through our regular insurance company. It doesn't cost that much, and if something happens at least were covered. So far everything seems to work fine like that.

A.D.

P.S. Keep in mind, I'm not a box builder. these boxes are great for us, but if someone knows a better way, I'm all ears. It might even be worth starting a new thread to see anyone has a better way of shipping large art.

[Paul Corfield]

I shipped a 30" x 40" canvas from here in the UK over to America a couple of months back and I basically used the same method as as you just outlined. The box weighed around 60lbs and cost around £120 ($215) to ship which included the insurance. I just wondered how you did it and it looks just the same way I've done. :)

For my works on illustration board or my prints I just use two sheets of masonite and tape it all up.

Paul.

[eyeburp]

Tim,
I'm rarely out of debates on this board, but that's gotten increasingly pointless lately.

AD,
I haven't primed yet and probably will just go with white. I'm trying to finish a couple of other paintings (on masonite) before I start with that wet dream of a canvas.

BTW, I'm moving in a few weeks and then I'll try spraying the gesso through a spray gun as a comparison to this method. Although, this wasn't a pain at all so that may be pointless. I'm gonna pour some lighter fluid on my house painting brush that I used to use to gesso canvas and toss it on the BBQ.

I've never shipped a painting that large, but would masonite sheets be lighter and cheaper than the 1/4" plywood? You'd still have ample protection from any punctures/pierces. Boy, I though shipping costs on cardboard boxes was high!

[Paul Corfield]

Masonite is too flexible and although it wouldn't puncture you could probably put enough pressure on it to dent the canvas. I thought about it for my 30" x 40" canvas but it's just not thick enough. 1/4" ply is still quite light. Masonite is quite a dense heavy wood.

Paul.

[ADCook]

Eyeburp,

I tend to agree with Paul on that. Masonite isn't nearly as strong as plywood. I'd stick to plywood for that box. There's not much out there that's as strong as plywood; pound-for-pound and dollar-for-dollar.

Hey, before you pour lighter fluid on your house painting brush and toss it on the BBQ, try thinning some gesso down really thin with water... about 50/50 and try a fun sporadic light coat on that freshly gessoed Masonite that you where going to build that box out of. You can create some great surface to paint on that way.

In fact, sometimes after we get the canvas nice and smooth, we sand it to give it just a taste of tooth, thin that gesso way down and go to town with a big brush. For best results lay the canvas flat to do this step, and don't move it until it's completely dry. Don't over-do it though - keep it suttle. It gives the canvas just enough texture to look interesting (like an oil painting), but allows the surface to accept frisket so you can still airbrush. Ultimately, the finish is very light, and adds just a flavor of variety. Twilight has that finish, and interestingly enough it seems as though some people are intrigued - not wanting to believe it's airbrushed because they see light brush strokes everywhere.

If that doesn't do it for you, there's always the BBQ later.

(By the way, I threw a painting in the BBQ once, but that's a long story. My wife has since limited my grill's usage to cooking food).

A.D.

[Panditha(Damian C.)]

old but i am currently trying ad cooks method, the only thing though is that I am wondering what type of gesso to use, currently using liquitex but wanting to move onto tri art or golden due to their flow and less plasticity. the problem is that i am currently using a textile squeegee from blicks, becausie i cannot find the type of squegge your talking about at all here at either blicks or any othjer store. further more i have found that thicker layers arent THAT bad if applied in moderation further more its much eaiser to first apply the layers thinly in brush strokes THEN squeegee, thus allowing the area to cover much much better. especially when applying the layers thinly i was also wondering how hard to push down thogh .