PDA

View Full Version : Don't use Golden acrylics


PthaloBlueGirl
05-11-2004, 04:04 PM
Man, am I P*****. I just tried to varnish, with Jo Sonja's Gloss Poly, my acrylic painting and the whole thing is looking like a glazed donut!! I have used JS gloss for years with no prob. I normally use winsor and newton or liquitex and had to use golden's mars black when my normal brand was unavailable. To my dismay it dries with a sheen as if it has a varnish on it so parts of the painting are flat and wherever the golden brand is it is shiny so I had to varnish the whole thing...

So now I don't get paid for it. I had to email the buyer and tell them the probelm. So another bill is late. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I don't like Golden's brand because of the way it retains brushmarks and gets 'gummy' quickly. I'd recommend using Winsor and Newton or Liquitex. They seem to mix well and the colors are much the same even when dry.

:mad:
:D

NewMexiCats
05-11-2004, 05:07 PM
Now that it is ruined but completely sealed, why not try a mat gloss medium or varnish over the whole thing to bring it back to one glossiness? Just a suggestion. :cat:

Enchanted
05-11-2004, 08:38 PM
Now that it is ruined but completely sealed, why not try a mat gloss medium or varnish over the whole thing to bring it back to one glossiness? Just a suggestion. :cat:

I agree. I'd try EITHER a matte varnish, or a gloss, which should unify the finish and give it an all-over sameness.

blumoon
05-11-2004, 08:48 PM
Was this a polymar varnish by Golden that you used? if so, there are removal directions on the Golden website. I just removed varnish last night that I had done incorrectly some time ago, and used ammonia as they suggested. getting gummy can be not diluting or overworking. Thin coats must be used, and will dry clear. If it is too glossy maybe you could used a satin or matt overtop. I made all the mistakes on my last attempt, so now I am trying to fix. Did you dilute it? I am a little unclear about which one you used, so maybe none of this makes sense.

PthaloBlueGirl
05-11-2004, 11:18 PM
No no no. The golden paint gets gummy when I paint with it, that was an extra mentioning not the main problem. I mentioned that so others could avoid the brand. I don't like golden's brand of paint. Golden paint, at least the mars black color I used, dries with a semi gloss look to it. My other brand, in basicly all the colors I use regularly, dry to a mat finish. So I had this semi glossy black with flat other colors THAT is why I varnished: so that it would all be glossy.

The golden paint itself does not spread smooth and retains too many brush marks for my liking.

I use JO SONJA's GLOSS VARNISH not any other golden product but that one MARS BLACK color because there was no mars black in my regular brand at that time that I could buy.

The problem is not with the varnish but with the paint that made it react like that. So I will not use GOLDEN paints any more I will stick with my regular brand.

I do not think that putting a matt varnish over the gloss will do anything but make more of a mess because what difference would it make to have it looking like a mat glazed donut? There is a white film to it. The painting is not gloss in some areas and flat in others now that the varnish is on it it was that way because of the Golden paint drying with a semi gloss where the others dried mat. That is why I used the gloss to make it all glossy but the paint reacted with it and now I have a mess.

Just wanted others to know so they could avoid golden or at least know that there is a problem 'mixing' it with other brands. By mixing I mean not necessarily mixing paints together but using one brand along side another.

I will toss the painting.

:D

CarlyHardy
05-11-2004, 11:33 PM
Don't toss before you try this. Mix your gloss varnish with matte....half and half. Then use a light coat over the painting. You should get a nice satin finish that won't be overly glossy.

I use Golden Acrylics and love them. One of the nicest things about them is how they don't lose color when they dry. I never use Black in my paintings so I can't comment on the Mars Black. Could it have been somewhat separated in the tube causing a lot of shine because of that?

I hope you can salvage the painting :)
carly

mame
05-11-2004, 11:43 PM
Not all manufacturers' acrylics "behave" the same. Different pigments/colors also have particular and unique attributes. Lower end manufacurers use lots of filler and binder - less pigment = cheaper price.
Golden is in fact a particularly high quality manufacturer.
(from Golden Acrylic web site)

Product Gloss Variance:

Fluid Acrylics

In keeping with the standards created by our Heavy Body Acrylics,
when formulating the Fluid line we consciously decided not to add
the flattening agents or opacifiers typically added to other acrylic
paints. Such fillers are frequently added to unify the sheen of a
line of paints and to make all colors uniformly opaque.

We decided that each pigment would be made to its own level of matte or gloss
and its own unique degree of opacity or transparency, depending upon
its own intrinsic nature. These decisions have allowed our colors to
retain their clearest and cleanest quality, especially when used in
washes or glazes where their brilliance is displayed. It is always
possible to add matting agents and other whitening materials to the
product, but once added, it is impossible to take them away.


Heavy Bodied
Product Gloss Variations:
When producing the HB line, GOLDEN consciously broke the mold of the acrylics made in the past. Most acrylics were produced to have an even satin sheen across the range of colors. Manufacturers felt artists wanted this even sheen to avoid the differences encountered by oils. In oils, the colors requiring very little oil (lean colors) tended to be very matte, while those colors requiring substantial amounts of oil (fatty colors) tended to be quite glossy.
GOLDEN decided not to add the flattening agents typically added to acrylic paints to unify the product's finish. We decided that each pigment would be made to its own level of matte or gloss depending upon its own unique nature. We also decided not to add opacifiers to our colors (use of opacifiers is critical for coverage of house paints, yet it is also the reason that house colors tend to be quite subdued compared to professional artist colors). These decisions allowed our colors to retain their clearest and cleanest quality, especially when used in washes or glazes. It is always possible to add matting agents and other whitening materials to the product, but once added, it is impossible to take them away. The HB line of acrylics contains no additional flattening agents, opacifiers or other solids that might interfere with the clarity of our pigments.
It is quite evident when looking at our color chart that colors in the HB line do differ in gloss. For example, the sheen of GOLDEN Ultramarine Blue or Burnt Umber is almost a dead matte, whereas the sheen of Green Gold or Dioxazine Purple is extremely glossy. Some artists may find this problematic; yet for many artists the variations offer the same nuances of color that are so appreciated in oil paints and give what many describe as an organic look to the colors. Without the need for opacifiers we can offer colors as similar in hue as the Cadmiums and Hansas, yet quite different in their ability to cover and in their clarity when mixing.

raisdbywolvz
05-12-2004, 12:07 AM
I love my Goldens and have a world of problems with Liquitex. Different strokes... ;)

Just curious, has your varnish lost its glazed donut appearance? A good varnish should go on somewhat milky but dry clear.

blumoon
05-12-2004, 02:10 AM
Sorry Pthalo Blue Girl. I misunderstood. I think Carly's suggestion is a good one. When you mix the gloss and matte together you will get a satin finish, and there's a good chance it'll even out. Matte over the black would probably go cloudy for sure, but I think with the satin you have a chance. Hope it works out.

Enchanted
05-12-2004, 09:51 AM
Golden is in fact a particularly high quality manufacturer.

In my experience, Golden is THE most highly regarded manufacturer of acrylic artist colors! If an artist is using all Golden products, I have no idea why they would use cheaper brands in the same work of art. For me, to use cheaper brands with Golden would be akin to mixing student grade with any professional grade of color. I'm not saying you should never do so, but I personally wouldn't. BTW, I don't use Golden.

timelady
05-12-2004, 01:09 PM
I've had this happen on my paintings (I primarily use Golden paints with the odd Liquitex thrown in) when using a low quality spray varnish (of which Winsor & Newton is from my experience). But only when I've tried to use a matte varnish. I've never heard of the varnish you've used so wonder if it's for paintings? (I say that because I have another varnish meant for crafts, for my collages.)

When this has happened I've put on a layer of artist gloss varnish over the 'foggy' bad varnish. Golden's gloss MSA works fine to correct this, or Liquitex does a bottle of gloss varnish/medium too.

Golden is the best brand I've found for pigment load and quality. We all like different things. :) The matte effect in your other paints may be due to the manufacturer adding fillers which block each pigment's natural finish (as mame posted). (By the way, I've never heard of Golden being gummy, so wonder what the humidity, heat etc. is like where you live?)

Tina.

BeeCeeEss
05-12-2004, 01:52 PM
Man, am I P*****. I just tried to varnish, with Jo Sonja's Gloss Poly, my acrylic painting and the whole thing is looking like a glazed donut!! I have used JS gloss for years with no prob. I normally use winsor and newton or liquitex and had to use golden's mars black when my normal brand was unavailable. To my dismay it dries with a sheen as if it has a varnish on it so parts of the painting are flat and wherever the golden brand is it is shiny so I had to varnish the whole thing...

It's very sad that all your hard work has been for naught. In defense of Goldens Acrylics (I don't work for them--I just use them and like them very much), the Jo Sonja line of paints is considered a craft paint, not necessarily a fine art paint. Why you chose their brand of Polyurethane Gloss Varnish rather than one from a higher quality line is rather puzzling. I don't know what surface your painting was on, but I wonder what the temperature and humidity level was in your location when you applied this varnish. Many such varnishes will react badly when applied in conditions of high humidity. Same for spray-on varnishes. The manufacturers of these products usually warn users about the effects adverse temperature and humidity conditions can have on varnish when it is drying. High humidity can cause the cloudiness you described. Unfortunately, I don't think trying another layer of any type of varnish over this cloudy one will help. The cloudiness is locked in the layer of Jo Sonja's Poly varnish now that it is dry. The only remedy is to remove that layer of varnish and try again with another brand.

I don't like Golden's brand because of the way it retains brushmarks and gets 'gummy' quickly. I'd recommend using Winsor and Newton or Liquitex. They seem to mix well and the colors are much the same even when dry.

:mad:
:D

The paints you use are strictly a matter of personal preference. We all have our favorites. The level of shine or lack of it when dry differs from one brand to another and even within the same brand with different products. Golden produces a line of heavy body acrylics that dry matte. Their standard body line is like most acrylic paints that will dry to a soft luster in heavy applications. They also produce a line of fluid acrylics that have the consistency of India Ink. I often work with Golden standard body paints on watercolor paper but I use it in thinned layers. It dries beautifully matte for me. The "gummy" feel you mention may be just the difference in a high quality acrylic paint that is worked too long. Many acrylic painters who have been used to working with oil paints love the heavier acrylic paints specifically because they may retain some brush strokes and texturing. We often have to add heavy body extenders and such to acrylics to achieve that kind of response.

Like many here, I hope you can manage to salvage your painting. But I feel compelled to speak up in defense of a truly fine line of acrylic paints. Golden Acrylic Paints are one of the absolute finest lines of professional quality paints. I would highly recommend them.

Beverly

PthaloBlueGirl
05-12-2004, 02:14 PM
Thank you for your opinions. I still wont use golden though. I think it is cheap. I normally use WInsor and Newton with Liquitex on occassion when the color I want to buy is not available at that time in WN. They both work well together both in actual mixing of the colors together and with using them in the same painting without mixing them together. The colors also are fairly well the same so there is no problem with using L's naples yellow instead of WN's when I want to mix flesh.

I just did not like the way the g paint worked. It felt nice at first and was very smooth but gummed up quickly and retains too many brush marks.

The varnish is clearning up in parts but in parts is still foggy and I don't like it.

I don't use craft paints. Jo Sonja is a craft brand but I use only their gloss varnish because it is the only one that actually make the colors look like they were when wet. Thta is to say, acrylics dry dull and a darker color if I want to get that fresh wet look I use the Jo Sonja gloss. I like the way it makes the colors look. It dries fast too. You can also paint on top of it if need be. I might be able to fix the painting that way after a light sanding here and there. I don't use the gloss on every painting but when I do dark, moody, or 'scary' paintings the gloss helps make the colors richer and yummier.

:D

Andrew
05-12-2004, 04:29 PM
Don't blame Golden. I use and mix Golden, Utrecht, Liquidex, and W&N interchangably without a problem. The gummy-ness, to hazard a guess, is how you are interpreting the polymerization (drying) of the thicker carrier. Golden uses much less water in their formulation, compared to W&N and Liquidex. The only brand with less water, that I am familiar with, is Utrecht. Water slows the polymerization. Acrylics do dry with a semi-gloss appearance. The heavier bodied the paint, the more it will hang onto the support surface and the glossier it will look.

I have never used a Polyurethane to seal a painting, acrylic or otherwise. First, urethanes will yellow over time, even so-called non- yellowing brands, and the longer they set, and can react with airborne chemicals and get sticky. Also, polyurethanes do have a limited shell life, especially if they have been opened, or stored in heat or direct sunlight. They can also go milky in high humidity areas (which Iowa happens to be 9 mos out of the year)

I would bet your problem lies with the polyurethane. From my experience, I would say that it settled and needs to be thoroughly mixed, which would take more than a few shakes. It is also possible that you experience a little crawl. That is, your first layer of polyurethane was too thick and it didn't bond evenly. Either case can cause the symptoms you describe. Your painting is not unsalvagable. Go down to the hardware store and look at varnish removers. Be sure to test the proess on some scrap to ensure that the painting below is unaffected.

If you like the look of the polyurethane, then prepare your painting with regular medium (gloss, semi-gloss, or matte) applied in a few thin coats. After that is dry, then apply the polyurethane. This will give a much more uniform surface, and helps prevent crawl. The medium is enough to protect the painting, but the polyurethane will add a resistance to many common solvents and alcohols, that may affect straight acrylic polymer.

Andrew

Enchanted
05-12-2004, 08:00 PM
I have never used a Polyurethane to seal a painting, acrylic or otherwise.

I use it all the time over water-based acrylic paints - not necessarily artist colors though. Here is a page with examples of how I use it - scroll to the "utilitarian" items at the bottom. I usually apply several coats of varnish because of the potential for wear and tear on these utilitarian objects. Also I use it on the "walking sticks and canes" seen at top left of the page because they are subjected to outdoor weathering and I found out early on that the hand grip areas of my walking sticks got "sticky" if I used an acrylic varnish:

Polyurethane varnish over acrylic paint... (http://www.zianet.com/jaxart/3dart/3dart.html)

OTOH, I seldom varnish my finished paintings done in acrylic, finding that it's "gilding the lily" - to euphemize. I know there are those who insist that varnishing finished acrylic paintings is important, but I don't happen to agree with that position. I varnish if the painting is going to be subjected to harsher than usual environmental conditions or heavy-handed cleaning.

Andrew
05-13-2004, 11:49 AM
Polyurethane over utilitarian items is a who seperate ballgame. I have done it over painted stools and decorative objects that get handled a great deal. But never over painting. With acrylics is it unnecessary. If you feel the need to seal it up, then use regular medium or you can get a polycrylic sealer from a DYI shop. It is the same acrylic base as the acrylic paint, but not emulsified, and has a slighly different carrier, so it will bond to most oil-based products.

Andrew

womble
05-14-2004, 04:15 PM
I use Golden, Liquitex and Winsor & Newton together and have never had a problem. I love Golden acrylics and mediums. I do think that Golden is a little thicker than some other brands but I like brush strokes so to me that's a benefit. Golden paint does differ in it's sheen from colour to colour but i haven't really found that to be a problem; in the less glossy colours I add a little gloss medium. Or I'll cover it with a coat of medium to even it out. I like gloss but you could just as easily add matte medium to your paint. I can't really comment about the black though since I don't use black. As a couple people have suggested it might be your varnish, I've never heard of it.

Keith Russell
05-14-2004, 04:22 PM
No no no. The golden paint gets gummy when I paint with it, that was an extra mentioning not the main problem. I mentioned that so others could avoid the brand. I don't like golden's brand of paint. Golden paint, at least the mars black color I used, dries with a semi gloss look to it. My other brand, in basicly all the colors I use regularly, dry to a mat finish. So I had this semi glossy black with flat other colors THAT is why I varnished: so that it would all be glossy.

The golden paint itself does not spread smooth and retains too many brush marks for my liking.

I use JO SONJA's GLOSS VARNISH not any other golden product but that one MARS BLACK color because there was no mars black in my regular brand at that time that I could buy.

The problem is not with the varnish but with the paint that made it react like that. So I will not use GOLDEN paints any more I will stick with my regular brand.

I do not think that putting a matt varnish over the gloss will do anything but make more of a mess because what difference would it make to have it looking like a mat glazed donut? There is a white film to it.

To the varnish, or to the paint? Sounds like you varnished in a very humid environment, to me...

The painting is not gloss in some areas and flat in others now that the varnish is on it it was that way because of the Golden paint drying with a semi gloss where the others dried mat. That is why I used the gloss to make it all glossy but the paint reacted with it and now I have a mess.

Just wanted others to know so they could avoid golden or at least know that there is a problem 'mixing' it with other brands. By mixing I mean not necessarily mixing paints together but using one brand along side another.

I will toss the painting.

Do what you will, but am I to be the only person here wondering why you were using straight black in the first place?

K

BeeCeeEss
05-14-2004, 08:00 PM
I doubt that the Golden's black paint reacted in any way with the Jo Sonja's gloss poly varnish. If there was a problem with the varnish hazing, it would be more noticeable over the darkest areas of the painting (i.e., black). I maintain that this is in no way the fault of the Golden paint, but I doubt that any of us will convince this artist who seems to have her mind utterly made up.

To others who are considering using Golden's line of Acrylic paints--please do so with complete confidence. They are top quality (as is their entire line of products) and there are lots of ways to achieve "black" paint without using tube black. I have been using them for many years and have never encountered such a problem.

Beverly

sgallisdorfer
05-30-2004, 11:20 AM
I can understand your frustration, and maybe I can shed some technical light on this for you, even if I can’t ‘save’ this project. The best I can recommend here is to remove the Jo Sonja’s varnish and re-varnish with a blend of gloss & matte to get the best sheen.

The technical: All acrylics have quite a variance in handling properties when they are made, and this varies greatly by color/pigment. Some dry faster, more glossy, are 'stringy', are stiffer, hold more brush strokes, etc. Artist grades like Golden, Liquitex and Winsor & Newton vary like this when they are first made too, but this is where much of the similarity ends. Acrylics are more than just acrylic co-polymer emulsion and pigment… there are about 20 other chemicals in them that, even though just a couple percent of the total, completely change handling character.

Liquitex and Winsor & Newton look at how all the different colors vary in handling properties, and ‘tweak’ them so they all behave similarly. They have the same sheen when dry, similar drying rates, hold brush strokes the same, have the same feel under the brush, etc. Golden chooses to not do this, not because they are lazy or anything of the sort. Their philosophy is that the artist should do this, and as such make a wide array of additives and a complete technical manual for doing just this. You don’t HAVE to adjust their color before using it, but just know that every color does behave differently. That is what you experienced with the Mars Black.

About the Jo Sonja’s varnish… I have done some testing on their paints, but not their varnishes. In broad terms, their paint is ‘moderate’ in grade (Liquitex, Golden and Winsor & Newton’s are all high end artist grade, as are their mediums, gels and other additives). In my opinion, Jo Sonja is better than craft grade, but more of the student level if you classify paint as ‘craft’, ‘student’ or ‘artist’. I would suspect the varnishes and mediums they produce could be similarly in this quality level, but again, have never tested them in any way.

Good luck, and I hope this helps.


Man, am I P*****. I just tried to varnish, with Jo Sonja's Gloss Poly, my acrylic painting and the whole thing is looking like a glazed donut!! I have used JS gloss for years with no prob. I normally use winsor and newton or liquitex and had to use golden's mars black when my normal brand was unavailable. To my dismay it dries with a sheen as if it has a varnish on it so parts of the painting are flat and wherever the golden brand is it is shiny so I had to varnish the whole thing...

So now I don't get paid for it. I had to email the buyer and tell them the probelm. So another bill is late. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I don't like Golden's brand because of the way it retains brushmarks and gets 'gummy' quickly. I'd recommend using Winsor and Newton or Liquitex. They seem to mix well and the colors are much the same even when dry.

:mad:
:D :(

Penny220
05-30-2004, 11:57 AM
I see a few problems, one is the varnish which obviously has problems of it's own. The other is I'm guessing the black you are used to using isn't a pure black, you simply prefer the tone of black you are used to. Gumming of paints, bruch strokes, problems with varnish, they both sound like a humidity problem. Golden is one of the highest quality acrylic paints you can use, if you care not to use them that is fine, to each their own, but I don't think the problems you are having are their fault.

For those who use polyurathane, try Future floor covering. It works the same but it is clear and doesn't yellow the same way poly does.

MsLilypond
06-04-2004, 04:40 PM
Hi,

I also use liqutex & winsor & newton, but have tried golden and liked it (it just never seems to go on sale in my local art stores), perhaps, just perhaps
you got an older tube of paint or one that a customer opened and didn't put the cap back on tight enough? I've had that happen to me in all the brands, liquitex, winsor & newton, and golden that I've bought.

Good luck in redoing the painting!