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glfshepard
05-05-2004, 03:43 PM
Do they work together? Any warnings, cautions, tips, tricks, thoughts?

Richard Saylor
05-05-2004, 05:34 PM
Acrylic over gouache should be okay. I'm not sure about gouache over acrylic or actually mixing them. However, Rob Howard, an illustrator who wrote a book on gouache (now out of print), usually did underpaintings with acrylic and finished with gouache, but I think he used Holbein Acryla gouache, a special formulation which is totally compatible with acrylics. (Of course, many illustrators are not concerned about the archival properties of their paintings.)

surreal
05-05-2004, 08:59 PM
Do they work together? Any warnings, cautions, tips, tricks, thoughts?

Why do you want to use both together?
:)
I am very curious, since I paint with both gouache and acrylic paints - but never together.

I would not recommend painting with gouache over an acrylic painting. The surface of an acrylic painting is not suitable for gouache.

:)

terriv
05-05-2004, 11:12 PM
I had asked the same question in the watercolor forum just a day or so ago so you might read there to see what people said.

I didn't want to "mix" them, just use them in the same work. A soft watercolor background with an acrylic subject is calling to me. The thought of mixing all three in one work is very appealing actually. Partly because I just can't get acrylics to flow and do what I want to do smoothly in the background, and because I can't get the exact right thing going in my subject the way I want in watercolor. I also love to play with textures. If you saw this (attached) earlier, you might see what I mean. I wanted the statue to be flat and dull and lifeless so I had to use lots of gesso; and the bird and background to have lots of life (i.e. more gloss). That contrast is what I think made this particular painting work. I want to use that in other things in darker colors and gesso is white-based. I think I can get that same effect going with gouche and/or watercolor and acrylics without the dense opaqueness of gesso.

In short, I don't want to follow "the rules". It inhibits my creativity. :evil:

I'm going to be doing this myself before long, glfshepard, so maybe we can get together again a little later and discuss what did and did not work.

As an afterthought of further explaination: I was afraid that the "fairy" would end up looking like a "fairy" rather than a "stone fairy birdfeeder" if I used the same medium. Thus I went with gesso only lightly tinted with acrylic to make it flat and stone-like. But what if I wanted a dark green overcoat to look like worn canvas against a sparkling night sea? It's that kind of effect that gives a painting real depth whether the viewer is actually able percieve the texutral difference consciously or not. It just makes something register silently in the viewer that says "contrast" and usually they can't name where the depth actually comes from. (In my opinion of course.)

Does that make sense at all?

glfshepard
05-06-2004, 12:13 PM
Why do you want to use both together?
:)
I am very curious, since I paint with both gouache and acrylic paints - but never together.



I just like using both, and was wondering whether they could be combined. No particular reason - just experimenting.

BeeCeeEss
05-06-2004, 09:22 PM
Do they work together? Any warnings, cautions, tips, tricks, thoughts?
Yes, you can work with acrylics and gouache together, although I would avoid mixing the wet paints together.

I love to use mixed media in my paintings with water-based paints. Generally, if you wish to use watercolors along with acrylics and/or gouache, I recommend using the watercolor first. Then you can use either or both acrylics and gouache to complete the painting. I usually work on watercolor paper or illustration board (sometimes museum board) so my paints are applied in the early stages of the painting like watercolor washes. Even the acrylic paints dry to a lovely, velvety matte finish at that point.

Later, however, with more build up of acrylic paint in opaque applications, the paint may begin to dry with acrylic's typical eggshell sheen (something I don't care for). But I still use gouache for the final detail touches, even over top of the acryic paint. It all works fine.

One thing to note with working with gouache--keep any and all oil or grease off your painting surface. Gouache is really fussy about having a perfectly clean, non-greasy surface to adhere to. When I work with gouache, I wear a specially made (by me) protective cotton glove on my painting hand to prevent any skin oils or residue of hand lotions, etc. from touching my painting surface.

The surface of traditional gouache paint (as opposed to Acryla Gouache or similar hybrids) is fragile and can be easily scratched. If you need to brush away any eraser particles or similar debris from the surface, use a very, very soft brush. Pro illustrators often use a duck wing brush (yes, made from real duck wing feathers) to brush away debris without scratching the perfect matte surface of the paint.

The image below is a painting I did of an Arabian mare using acrylics, gouache, and some colored pencil done on 100-percent cotton museum board. This was done some years ago and it's holding up just fine.

Beverly


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-May-2004/14428-ArabMare.jpg

terriv
05-06-2004, 10:46 PM
Beverly, that you for your time in posting that information. Very helpful to me. And, you picture is wonderful!

I have started my mixed media painting. I'm using watercolor paper with an initial watercolor wash (very dark and deep) in the background. After doing the watercolor layer, I wanted to glaze over it with acrylic gel/water glaze and was afraid the glaze would lift the paint. so I sprayed it with matte photo finish then went over it with the glaze and everything stayed put as I wanted. (Not sure what would have happened without the spray.)

After that, I was getting some bluckling of the paper even though I had stretched it so with the watercolor and the acrylic glaze layer on I REDUNKED IT IN THE BATHTUB. It came out just fine with no loss of color at all. I just restretched it and now it's flat again.

Very interesting "process" I have going here with my experimentation if nothing else.

artistodon
05-07-2004, 01:22 AM
This is a great thread with alot of good advice. (of which I have none to give). I like the idea of mixing media and think you should go for it.
Don :)

terriv
05-07-2004, 04:27 AM
Here is the beginning with just the watercolor on. (I can't watercolor worth a flip.) It just gave me some depth to begin working in rather than white. If I finish this picture, I'll post the end result. Right now I think I've pushed myself too hard, tried to do too much in a day, overworked the background, and it's still in that UGLIER THAN MUD stage that all my paintings seem to go though where I am wondering if it's salvagable. Very tired.
http://www2.netdoor.com/~vannoys/terri/wip-lily2.JPG

BeeCeeEss
05-07-2004, 01:21 PM
Beverly, that you for your time in posting that information. Very helpful to me. And, you picture is wonderful!

Thanks! Glad you found the info useful.

I have started my mixed media painting. I'm using watercolor paper with an initial watercolor wash (very dark and deep) in the background. After doing the watercolor layer, I wanted to glaze over it with acrylic gel/water glaze and was afraid the glaze would lift the paint. so I sprayed it with matte photo finish then went over it with the glaze and everything stayed put as I wanted. (Not sure what would have happened without the spray.)

Generally, if your watercolor washes are thoroughly dry before overglazing them, they should be fine as long as you don't overwork the area. If you brush over it once with a new glaze and let it dry thoroughly, the WC should not lift. Your method of sealing the watercolor layer works fine as long as you don't intend to return to using watercolors in that area. Once the watercolor paper has been sealed, you won't get the same response with your watercolor paints.


After that, I was getting some bluckling of the paper even though I had stretched it so with the watercolor and the acrylic glaze layer on I REDUNKED IT IN THE BATHTUB. It came out just fine with no loss of color at all. I just restretched it and now it's flat again.

Very interesting "process" I have going here with my experimentation if nothing else.

Wow! You've got a lot more guts than I would have! :p

I recall reading a tip in one of my old issues of an art magazine about a watercolor painter who prevented his/her paper from buckling by wetting the reverse side of the paper first using a brush and lots of water. Then he turned the paper over, "stretched" it and stapled it down on a board to begin laying in washes on the other side. He said this kept the paper nicely just damp and let the washes spread with nice, soft edges, etc. But he was using 300 lb. weight paper. I don't know if this method would work well with the 140 lb. paper I generally use.

For those who find acrylic paints don't let you work in the fine detail that you would like, and you've experimented with other water media like gouache, I highly recommend that you try Golden's Fluid Acrylic paints. They are much thinner than Liquitex's Medium Viscosity acrylics, and they can be worked in washes that respond like watercolors or they can be used in opaque applications like standard body acrylics. They have the consistency of India Ink and come in squeeze bottles that make them very convenient for mixing just the amount you want without waste. If you want more texture, you can try the standard body or heavy body acrylics, mix and match them as you please. You also have a huge array of mediums, gels, texturing products and the like from many of the acrylic paint manufacturers. I am partial to Golden Acrylics, so I'm pretty familiar with their line, but you can probably find what you need in the brand you prefer.

Since discovering Goldens Fluid Acrylics, I haven't found much need to work with gouache lately unless I want a paint that will allow me to rewet and lift certain areas. Gouache certainly does have its uses.

Beverly