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lozz
04-29-2004, 01:54 PM
OK, no throwing your pastels at me! Right! I wear specs now, don't you know...

My totally innocent question is: (runs and ducks for cover....)

When we create a picture using pastels are we:

a: Pastel drawing.....
b: Pastel painting.....

I only ask because on some sites pastels are categorized under 'drawing' rather than painting.

best wishes

lozz

PaulaCT
04-29-2004, 02:02 PM
Wheeeeee.... here we go! I'm looking forward to reading everyone's opinions, because I've heard it both ways, too. Great question, lozz.

PaulaCT

lozz
04-29-2004, 02:15 PM
Wheeeeee.... here we go! I'm looking forward to reading everyone's opinions, because I've heard it both ways, too. Great question, lozz.

PaulaCT


Sure is PaulaCT! I've brought my pillar just in case anyones up for a fight! :D

Geoff
04-29-2004, 02:18 PM
From all I've read,
A pastel painting is one that completely covers the support you are using, and a drawing leaves some of it showing.

Stoy Jones
04-29-2004, 02:23 PM
Although I heard it both ways, I think it can go either way...perhaps how they are used. If you are going strictly for line, its a drawing. If you are going more for color, values, and form, it is a painting. This of course is not law, just my personal observation as to the many different ways pastel can be used and the end result. (i.e. a pastel drawing or a pastel painting.)

Stoy

lozz
04-29-2004, 02:34 PM
Aaaah! Thanks guys!

I see the difference now....

lozz

Dyin
04-29-2004, 02:40 PM
somewhere in debates this went on for awhile...but the accepted term for pastels is painting. I think it depends on how you use it...if it's about line...drawing. If it's about shape...painting. I just call my stuff paintings and let everyone else worry about :D

SweetBabyJ
04-29-2004, 02:47 PM
That was a very heated debate, too, as I recall. The "pro-draw-ers" were adamant that "painting" was only done with a brush (or knife or fingers- they had to give folks that when examples were shoved in their faces) using a wet medium- not just pigment- and boy were they picky about that part- on a relatively flat surface- yada-yada-yada. Even reading it three or four times, I finally came to the conclusion the "pro-draw-ers" agenda had little to do with honest curiosity, and a lot to do with exclusionary egotism. To a poster, they all seemed to be saying "*Painting* is the highest form of 2-D art, while drawing is for wannabes".

There's no point arguing with folks whose minds are so closed it's surprising they don't implode from the pressure.

Mikki Petersen
04-29-2004, 02:57 PM
I consider what I do painting. I use the same theories and techniques with pastel that I use with matermedia. I see people use the term "sketch" to refer to a painting done quickly while I tend to think of a sketch as a drawing. I do see works in pastel that are drawings, and obviously so because they are outlines of objects maybe with some shading. I find both paintings and drawings to be of equal value. A good drawing has as much or more impact as a painting and sometimes I think drawings take greater skill. Geoff's answer is probably the best guide and Greg has a good definition too.

K Taylor-Green
04-29-2004, 03:24 PM
As far as I am concerned, it is painting. So is a finished colored pencil piece. Other than moisture, how much real difference is there between wet and dry media? Pastel has been called painting down thru the ages, and that is good enough for me!

Marc Sabatella
04-29-2004, 03:24 PM
I think we should have a new term, because there are distinctions can be made between a pastel and a painting as well as distinctions between a pastel and a drawing. It has characteristics of both, of course, as well, but calling it either one or the other would be to ignore all this.

FWIW, though, given the choice, I go with "painting", because in the end, the thing *looks* like a painting. If you can't tell it's pastel and not watercolor or oil until you get close up, it's more a painting that a drawing in my book.

sundiver
04-29-2004, 04:10 PM
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109426

That's the aforementioned thread.......... some lively dialogue to say the least! But also references and such.

Dyin
04-29-2004, 04:45 PM
There's no point arguing with folks whose minds are so closed it's surprising they don't implode from the pressure.

durn...where's the imploding head smileyface???? :evil: :D I've always been a poor cousin..first airbrushing and now not only pastel but OIL pastel...I don't care, as long as I can do what I want they can call it whatever they want...it's why I fit in the back row so well! :D

meowmeow
04-29-2004, 06:24 PM
Drainting? :D

Or better yet...pawing!!!:D

I can't believe the things people argue about...who cares....we enjoy it and that's all that matters.


Sandy

Mikki Petersen
04-29-2004, 06:32 PM
Drainting? :D

Or better yet...pawing!!!:D

I can't believe the things people argue about...who cares....we enjoy it and that's all that matters.


Sandy

I'm with you Sandy! What on Earth could it matter? I went to that other "discussion" and was so put-off by the end of the first page, I did not go further. I would think Webster's definition covers it pretty susinctly. If that is not enough, I spent several hours last night reading articles in American Artist, Artist's Magazine, Pastel Journal and Watercolor Magic and they make no special distinction between dry pigment and wet pigment. Why exactly is this important?

Deborah Secor
04-29-2004, 07:25 PM
I say mine are paintings because they deal with all the same color issues as any other media. However, one of the things I like best about pastels is that they are a drawing process in the finest sense, since I use my hand and not a brush.

I think maybe 'p-awing' is as good a term as any! LOL

Deborah

Stoy Jones
04-29-2004, 08:10 PM
Drainting? :D

Or better yet...pawing!!!:D

I can't believe the things people argue about...who cares....we enjoy it and that's all that matters.


Sandy

Lol! I like those much better! Bring that to the table and people will forget what they were arguing about! :D I agree, when it is all said and done, it is a "work of art" and that can't be denied.

Stoy

Nodosaurus
04-29-2004, 08:17 PM
I know the answer to this one!

It painting,
no wait, its drawing.
No, um, I don't know, my brain hurts.

Take a poll.
Everyone who can't decide, raise your right paw.

Frcontr
04-29-2004, 09:16 PM
no matter what it's called, once i put a frame on it and it is hung on the wall, it is a work of ART!

lozz
04-29-2004, 11:23 PM
Ah! That got a reaction then.... :D

The reason why it is important is because I wanted your views on it. Its just I notice on some art sites they have it under the drawing section, some have it under the painting section and some have it under a pastel section. I was just curious to know what its classification is....

You know like, driving to London, sailing to China or flying off the handle, I just like to know... :)

lozz

CarlyHardy
04-30-2004, 12:36 AM
Since I can't draw.....I must be painting!!
carly

MKathleen
04-30-2004, 12:40 AM
:) I have a couple thoughts, I have always referred to works in pastel as paintings. I also think of pastel as a drawing medium and I mean that in a complimentary way. With pastel you both draw and paint...

Dyin
04-30-2004, 12:58 AM
Since I can't draw.....I must be painting!!
carly

teehee :p

Stoy Jones
04-30-2004, 01:39 AM
Ah! That got a reaction then.... :D

The reason why it is important is because I wanted your views on it. Its just I notice on some art sites they have it under the drawing section, some have it under the painting section and some have it under a pastel section. I was just curious to know what its classification is....

You know like, driving to London, sailing to China or flying off the handle, I just like to know... :)

lozz

You know lozz, if you enter one of your cool pieces in a show, the classification may make a difference depending on how the show is structured. Something to find out a head of time before entering!

Stoy

Khadres
04-30-2004, 02:56 AM
Interesting question, but if pigeonholing for the purpose of doing the old "MY stuff's ART, yours ISN'T" routine, it's moot. Some folks will always need a reason to look down on the efforts of others in order to feel more important themselves. Waste of time and energy.

I agree with the idea that a pastel used to create a mainly line drawing with minimal value shading is creating a drawing. If it (and usually some of its siblings) are used to show form and atmospheric perspective, etc. and has the look of a painting overall, well, that's what it is....a painting. I've done both. Both are good. Both are demanding of skill. Both are art. And we won't even worry about the hybrids where an image is part painting, part drawing; THOSE would likely drive the nitwit types totally mad with confusion! They'd be completely unable to decide which part to scorn!

Marc Sabatella
04-30-2004, 02:53 PM
You know lozz, if you enter one of your cool pieces in a show, the classification may make a difference depending on how the show is structured. Something to find out a head of time before entering!
Stoy

It's an issue at the Cherry Creek Art Festival here in Denver - you apply for one category at a time. If you enter "Paintings" as your category, you can submit and show works in any "paint" medium, but no pastels. And if you enter "Drawing", you can submit and show pastels, charcoal, pencil, etc, but nothing done with paint. Artists who work in both oil and pastel are essentially cheated.

Laura Shelley
04-30-2004, 03:33 PM
It's an issue at the Cherry Creek Art Festival here in Denver - you apply for one category at a time. If you enter "Paintings" as your category, you can submit and show works in any "paint" medium, but no pastels. And if you enter "Drawing", you can submit and show pastels, charcoal, pencil, etc, but nothing done with paint. Artists who work in both oil and pastel are essentially cheated.

Sounds like the artists who submit to this festival should bring it up to the organizers, because if I was told I couldn't submit a pastel under the painting category, I'd let them know how I felt, to put it mildly. :)

I think the drawing/painting distinction is a generational issue to a large extent. When I was in school 25 years ago, there were no pastel courses offered at all. We used sanguine conte in drawing class, and that was as close as it got. I did some oil pastels on my own and put them in my senior show, but I thought of it as a sketch medium even though I completely covered the paper and blended the colors like a painting. Obviously I've changed my mind, but probably only in the last two years or so! Pastel is still an up-and-coming medium that needs advocates.

Dyin
04-30-2004, 04:27 PM
It's an issue at the Cherry Creek Art Festival here in Denver - you apply for one category at a time. If you enter "Paintings" as your category, you can submit and show works in any "paint" medium, but no pastels. And if you enter "Drawing", you can submit and show pastels, charcoal, pencil, etc, but nothing done with paint. Artists who work in both oil and pastel are essentially cheated.

yeah, and with oil pastels you can really be in no man's land...look at Pastel Journal...they won't allow oil pastels in their annual pastel competition. I"m mixing those with acrylic underpaintings showing through, oil paint sometimes, and they don't remotely come near what I think a drawing is. I supposed I could enter a mixed media category, but it's mainly OPs. The old owners were about to start a seperate competition for the oil pastels but now under the new owners even the monthly oil pastel feature has been dropped, and no word of a competition, together or seperate. So this is a sub-issue of the larger issue. I'm entering The Artist Magazine competition, but that is classified by subject. I would like to be judged by my peers too.

Deborah Secor
05-01-2004, 04:51 PM
We pastelists in NM originally founded the pastel society in part because we were so fed up with pastels being considered as drawings in competitions. We started our own national show for soft pastels (not oil pastels--sorry Sue!) because we wanted a forum for our work to be judged by our peers. In all of the large shows and competitions, and all of the art fairs around here, pastels were--and still are--classed with drawings, compared alongside conte, charcoal, etc.

I have to say one thing, paintings sure do shine compared to black and white work! You line up all the pencil, graphite, and etc, and the colors in the paintings stick out--and often are juried in because of this, I think. I know that I'd have a lot harder time getting accepted to an art fair like Cherry Creek if I was being judged alongside all the watercolorists, oil and acrylic painters. (So there can be a silver lining...)

It really chaps me, however, that I'm NOT judged alongside them. Maybe we need to start a show for 'paintings' with no media mentioned! ("Hey, gang, let's put on a show," she said, doing her best imitation of Mickey Rooney.)


Deborah

Mikki Petersen
05-01-2004, 07:14 PM
Well Deborah...I've been thinking about that...There is a craft guild here in Swansboro Country that does shows strictly to raise cash for the local volunteer fire dept. Wouldn't it be interesting to do an anual Art Show to raise money for the support of Wet Canvas? It could be juried, with prizes and everything, but the net proceeds would be used to promote the continued support of our most favorite place.

DFGray
05-01-2004, 07:16 PM
Hi
seeing how both pastel and other mediums (acrylic, oil et al) are pigments
lets call those others brushings or knifings
instead of paintings
we can stick to pastels
regards
Dan

Dyin
05-01-2004, 07:19 PM
Hi
seeing how both pastel and other mediums (acrylic, oil et al) are pigments
lets call those others brushings or knifings
instead of paintings
we can stick to pastels
regards
Dan


oh no...there's been a knifing over in oil painting forum... :eek: :evil: :p

Mikki Petersen
05-01-2004, 08:05 PM
ROTFLMAO!!!! :D :D :D You guys are too funny! :D :D :D

majestaero
05-02-2004, 12:04 AM
Hehehe...is it safe around here? Everyone put your weapons down.... :p

I used to always call my OPs drawings, but now it seems everyone is using the term painting for pastels and coloured pencils, so I decided to go with it! Personally, when I use OPs I often feel like it's bordering on sculpture....hehehe....throw that into the mix!!!!

Linda

Lisa Maria
05-02-2004, 03:36 AM
Hello
Ive read.. I dont remember in what book.. that artists in the past first used pastels for studies or sketches... later the medium gained popularity .. and it was used to imitate oil painting.. after Degas and other artists who exploited pastel techniques.. it was no longer considered just a drawing medium...

hope my english is not too bad :)

MonicaB
05-02-2004, 05:49 PM
Well Deborah...I've been thinking about that...There is a craft guild here in Swansboro Country that does shows strictly to raise cash for the local volunteer fire dept. Wouldn't it be interesting to do an anual Art Show to raise money for the support of Wet Canvas? It could be juried, with prizes and everything, but the net proceeds would be used to promote the continued support of our most favorite place.

That would be a fantastic idea. Any idea how to go about it?

Marc Sabatella
05-02-2004, 07:47 PM
I have to say one thing, paintings sure do shine compared to black and white work! You line up all the pencil, graphite, and etc, and the colors in the paintings stick out--and often are juried in because of this, I think. I know that I'd have a lot harder time getting accepted to an art fair like Cherry Creek if I was being judged alongside all the watercolorists, oil and acrylic painters. (So there can be a silver lining...)


True, and I hadn't thought about that aspect of it. On the other hand, when I have visited the Cherry Creek festival, it seemed most if not all the "drawings" were pastel. Not sure if that's because only the pastelists made it past the jurying process, or if people who specialized in charcoal or pencil were less likely to enter. But realistically, you're competing against the other pastelists.

In any case, since I probably wasn't very specific or clear about what the *downside* of this classification scheme is, consider:

If you work in both oil and pastel, you have to choose which to submit for jurying, and if you are accepted, you can only show that category, although you can show whatever media within the category you like. That is, if you are accepted in painting, you can show oil, acrylic, or watercolor, but not pastel. If you are accepted in drawing, you can show pastel, charcaol, or pencil, but not oil. The point of classification is to ensure that people who are accepted into the show on the basis of a few slides don't show up for the festival with work that is nothing like what got them there, so i understand the point. But with most artists I know who do both oil and pastel, their work in the two media is similar enough that you wouldn't notice the difference from more than 2 feet back. So the distinction seems rather arbitrary on that basis.

Also, this is a *large* festival, spread out over maybe a dozen or so city blocks. At the information booths, you can get maps showing where each artist is, and realistically, I doubt most people visit all the booths or even most of them. Since there is such a variety of categories of work represented, I'd be very surprised if there weren't people who thought to themselves, "I'm not interested in woodworking or fiber art or photography or sculpture; I'll just head for the booths with paintings". And the category names are on the map as well as prominently displayed on the booths themselves. It's extremely likely that pastelists are being overlooked by people on the hunt for paintings. And of course, most of these people wouldn't actually have cared whether it was an oil or a pastel - as long as it *looked* like a painting.

Mikki Petersen
05-02-2004, 10:57 PM
In terms of the images, why don't they just go by subject matter? Really, a good pastel work should stand on it's own against any othe medium. Therefore, if judging and categorizing occurred by subject, e.g. landscape, still life, abstract, everyone would be on an even playing field. I don't want to be a good "pastel" landscape painter...I want to be a good landscape painter! All the rules of composition, color theory, etc. apply evenly across the board. Okay, so I'm naive and besides I don't enter shows...but still?!? And, by the way, this is why I don't show my work...I hate all the cliques and politics...human nature...but the baser side.

rd2ruin
05-03-2004, 01:24 AM
Really, a good pastel work should stand on it's own against any othe medium.

I;ve been toying with oils and drawing for a few months, and I wouldn't identify a pastel as neither a painting or a drawing. It's a pastel.

I dont say that as a downer to pastels, but I think they are as different as night and day. Pastels should, and will be, eventually acknowledged as it's own medium, not as the poor man's oils or graphite or practice medium, as is suggested in art competitions.

The work of the folks over at Pastel Journal, in exhibits I've seen and even here at WC suggest that there is no reason pastels will indefinately be playing second fiddle to other mediums. What's important to remember is that watercolor and oils and drawings have been around for hundreds of years as an exhibiting medium, pastels only really since Degas (even though they existed long before that). It's only a matter of time before it's on equal footing.

What Frcontr said... it's a work of art. The means to the end shouldn't matter.

Cheers!
- Greg

lozz
05-03-2004, 06:46 AM
This is all great.

I guess there is nothing really defined as to the 'output' of the process of using pastels then.

I have read in art books about oil paintings, and I have read about oil 'sketches' and 'studies' by famous painters. These have been termed by the Art World in general. But when I have read the proportionally small amount there is about pastels, the art world seems to either just call them, studies, drawings or 'pastels'...

I went to a an exhibition of a local artist's work, it was exhibiting his 'pastel skecthes', (advertised as such). When I got there, they were beautiful landscapes, village scenes and local wildlife (not that we really have anything you could call 'wild' on our little island ;)). I noted that the entire surface of the paper was covered in pastel. The artist had a lovely 'paintedly' style and from a distance, the art work looked like oil, or watercolour paintings. I read the 'artist statement' and he had written that they were 'paintings'.

What an uncertain world we live in... :)

vanityfaire
05-03-2004, 06:47 AM
It appears that "painting" is referred to for the pastel. In years past, I agree with others it was a drawing medium, a practice so to speak. I believe that the work that goes into a pastel is very heart and soul. We put our whole selves into a piece. It should be ranked equally to the oil or acrylic painting. I wonder too about pricing. People have the mindset that a pastel should be cheaper than an oil. -vanity

lozz
05-03-2004, 07:36 AM
People have the mindset that a pastel should be cheaper than an oil. -vanity


Yeah! :) Maybe those people should go out and pay the price for a good set of pastels then! :D

Deborah Secor
05-03-2004, 11:38 AM
Marc, in most of the large fairs I've done they usually allow artists to enter in two categories, 'apinting' and 'drawing' for instance, unlike Cherry Creek. You're right, it really might work against an artist if the work is not listed as paintings and the buyer only shops the painting booths. I've sure seen folks with that list, pen in hand, searching for the booth numbers matching the program--so I know what you mean. It seems like every one of the really good fairs has some hitch to it. Nothing is perfect...and Cherry Creek is one of the best.

It should be ranked equally to the oil or acrylic painting. I wonder too about pricing. People have the mindset that a pastel should be cheaper than an oil. -vanity

I hate to say this, but I'm afraid it's true! After 25 years of painting, 17 of those exclusively in pastels, the fact is that work framed under glass will most likely never be worth as much as work that can be framed without. It isn't fair, it isn't right, it should be changed, and it's the way it is.

I remember having a discussion with a famous gallery owner who patiently explained to me that she simply couldn't sell paintings under glass for as much money as she could the oil paintings in her gallery because of the reflections, that they were perceived of as fragile--whether pastels, watercolors, prints or anything else. She thought it was purely perceptual. Oils seemed to have more permanence in peoples' minds because they weren't glazed and because there is a great history behind them. The crowd mentality says that if they've been sold for a few hundred years they must be increasing in value.

Now you and I know that pastels are among the most permanent of media in the world today, that time has already proven that, but it's just going to take time for the market to accept that. We need to make quality work, using quality materials, and continue to educate the public, one person at a time if needed!

Meanwhile we can get all bent out of shape that they don't understand but let's not forget the need to educate and thereby create a backlash with our attitude. I've seen that happen--people shopping at a fair who ended up standing in the booth of some poor, angry pastelist who berated them for not understanding the inherent value of pastels, and who then proceeded to stroll down to the local oil painter's booth and buy the biggest painting he had because he stood there with quiet confidence...

I think shows selected with subject matter as the criteria might end up being the strongest shows! The various pastel society pastels-only shows all over the US are some of the most interesting and well-attended, not to mention best selling shows around. That's how we're going to influence people. We have to give them excellence.

Deborah

lozz
05-03-2004, 01:30 PM
That's how we're going to influence people. We have to give them excellence.

Deborah



Sound like a mission we'll all have to undertake Dee!!! :)

Marc Sabatella
05-04-2004, 12:50 AM
Marc, in most of the large fairs I've done they usually allow artists to enter in two categories, 'apinting' and 'drawing' for instance, unlike Cherry Creek.


Oh, you can enter two categories if you like - but you have to pay two separate entry fees (and it's not cheap), and you are juried on the entries separately. Whereas someone working in multiple painting media can enter them all together.

Deborah Secor
05-04-2004, 11:21 AM
Well, that's a pain but at least you can do it! Do they list you under two categories in the catalog? That might be another plus...

Deborah