foam board, illustration board, clay board???

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

I am just wondering if you can airbrush directly on foam board and skip painting on illustration board and then mounting it to foam board. It seems the surface is very smooth.


I'm just thinking about the rigidness vs. cost vs. archival quality. Is foam board the most rigid between it and clayboard? Can you get clayboard that is acid free?


I need to decide how I want to do this but wondering if anyone has painted on foam board. Seems that you could paint it, clear it and it's done w/o need for a backing support.



Any opinions?


Thanks,
Tim

[Penny220]

painting on foam board would be the same as painting on poster board. I wouldn't do it. As far as clayboard the stuff I have is acid free, there are other brands and I am not sure if all are created equal or not, check with dick blick.

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

I saw some foam board that said it was acid-free. So, if I used that, wouldn't it be okay? In other words, what are the specific cons of painting directly onto a foam board that says it is acid-free? If it would be permanent and not change color or let the paint peel off then wouldn't that let me avoid having to paint on the illustration board and gluing it to the foam board?



I did do several searches and you find mostly general info. I am concerned about the longevity, too. Which will physically hold up longer?

I looked at the Crescent 9208 I have and it seems to be superior to the 218 I have been using in a few ways (thicker and sturdier, smoother and whiter, not a sheet of paper on gray cardboard) so I may just use it once I use up the other and just use foam board for the backing.


Thanks Penny!!!



Tim

[Penny220]

I always use the heavy illustration board. As far as permanently mounting the foam board to the illustraton board, this shouldn't be done. The foam board is meant to just hold the illustration board to the frame and is not meant to be a permanent installation.

[AlpineAirbrush]

Tim, I tried painting on foam board ( did some simplele lettereing and graphics for my wife's (( Virginia :angel: )) Pampersed Chef business about a year ago. It was O.K. to paint on. A couple of problems were that the paint did'nt want to adhere to the surface. I used Createx on it and the slightest rub or scratch and the paint was gone. :eek: The other thing was that Masking tape and frisk DID stick. So well that either would pull the thin topcoat right off and expose the foam core. :eek: :eek: .

Maybe one could prepare the surface to accept paint and repell adhesive a little better. I guess you'll have to experiment !

Let me Know if you find what works 'cause I've got boxes and boxes of the stuff that were given to me.

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

Thanks Penny and AA!


Sounds like I need to avoid painting directly on it then. But what is the problem (sorry if I seem dense here but sometimes I need the answer explained in more detail) with spraying 3M Spra-Ment and permenantly adhering the illustration board to the foam board?

I guess I want the people for whom I do portraits to receive something that looks like a quality product. If I send the illustration board only, it can bend on them and they could cause a thick clear coat to crack if they aren't careful.

Anyway...... just beat it into me and I'll hopefully get it. hehehehhehehe


Thanks!

Oh, Kevin, if I wanted this board you have, can I buy it? What brand and size? Is it acid-free?


Thanks,
Tim

[Penny220]

I didn't say don't use it, I said don't permanently mount it to it. When I buy prints, they come shipped with it but never mounted with it, why, because not all frames except it but it protects the prints until they are framed. An original painting should come with an option of frames so that the problem is solved from the beginning.

[Milo]

I am just wondering if you can airbrush directly on foam board and skip painting on illustration board and then mounting it to foam board. It seems the surface is very smooth.


I'm just thinking about the rigidness vs. cost vs. archival quality. Is foam board the most rigid between it and clayboard? Can you get clayboard that is acid free?


I have never painted on foam board but wouldn't want to subject it to a longevity test.

If you get the brand name ClayBord (yes that is the correct spelling) from Ampersand http://www.ampersandart.com/ Gessobord might be inbetween

This museum quality panel is coated with a smooth absorbent clay ground comparable to the clay gesso grounds used during the Renaissance. Archival, lightfast, and acid free, the panels are ideal for acrylics, gouache, tempera, egg tempera, pen and inks as well as for mixed media techniques, airbrush, and collage. The surface is additive and subtractive. Remove paints to add contrast, texture, tonal value and fine details. Perfect for any artwork that requires an extremely smooth surface. Now available in the 2” DEEP cradle!

They also have Gessobord (yup again correct spelling)
Save hours of applying and sanding gesso with perfectly hand-crafted Gessobord. The thick acrylic polymer gesso ground has been sanded to an exceptional finish you’ll love. Perfect for layering, glazing, alla prima and impasto in oils, acrylics, encaustics, alkyds or water-based oils. The surface is pH neutral and acid free. Now available in the 2” DEEP cradle!

I also saw a nice little article from A.D. Cook on prepping a canvas for a completly smooth finish http://www.adcookfineart.com/aa-article-canvasprep.html

Hope this helps.

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

Okay, so I see the point about not permanently mounting the illustration board so it will fit inside any frame and they can let the frame shop add a backing if they want/need. So, I could buy the 1/2" foamboard and put it on TOP of my artwork to ship it and maybe it'd help protect if the box got damaged in shipping. There is a chapter on shipping in my art marketing book. sigh..... so much to learn.


The claybord sounds like it would work. I wonder how easy it is to cut? Buy large and cut to size? I can do that w/illustration board. But you know, I am thinking this Crescent 9208 is what I'll be using. It is way smooth and white and pretty sturdy. And I can cut it with a razor to the sizes I need.

Anyway, I'll read on the Claybord and maybe try a piece.


Thanks,
Tim

[Milo]

The claybord sounds like it would work. I wonder how easy it is to cut? Buy large and cut to size? I can do that w/illustration board. But you know, I am thinking this Crescent 9208 is what I'll be using. It is way smooth and white and pretty sturdy. And I can cut it with a razor to the sizes I need.

Anyway, I'll read on the Claybord and maybe try a piece.


You will need to order it to size (You won't be able to cut it), also since you use com-art if you want to wipe something out taking it back to the base color (white or black make sure you order the background color you want) a little quetip or towel and water. Jurek did that when we did the wolf at the workshop he was unhappy with one of his eyes and I looked up and where he had a full eye before was just white. I would get a piece and try it out at least. It is ultra smooth, You can frame it directly (no mounting board etc). I did see they had the new 2" deep pieces for those that like the gallery wrap look.

Milo

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

Thanks, Milo. I will definitely try it.

You know, now that I think of it, I ruined two paintings doing that q-tip/water thing but they were very papery (poster board and the 218 illustration board) so the 9208 illustration board and claybord may do better for that.



Thanks,
Tim

[Maryl Lehman]

Hi Tim! I agree with Milo----I would go with the Claybord or the gesso board. I just bought a piece of the Claybord and it is just a piece of tempered 1/8" masonite, coated with what appears to be white paint (even though they say it is coated with "a soft absorbent clay that is ideal for many mediums". I have used tempered masonite that I have base coated white and I just love the smoothness of it! Can't wait to try this Claybord---it is super smooth and very rigid. It sure won't bend! And it would be easy to frame, too. I have been painting on canvas but prefer the masonite because of the hard and smooth surface. Only thing is, you sure can't cut it with a knife----you would need a table saw, or electic saw of some sort anyway. In my opinion, the foam board wouldn't be a very professional look, and could easily get damaged.

Oh, and I wish you the best in your demonstration! You'll do great!

~Maryl

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

Thanks, Maryl.


I checked out the claybord on the web but I am thinking I'll go with the Crescent 9208 instead. It is .090 inches thick (not as thick as the clayboard but pretty sturdy) and very white and veeeery smooth AND I can cut it with a utility knife or maybe even my matte cutter so I can buy a bigger size and just chop it up. Also, the clayboard is more than twice as costly as the 9208. One sheet of clayboard at 24" x 36" is $16 whereas I can get some 9208 for maybe $7 a sheet. I haven't FELT the claybord but I cannot imagine anything smoother than this 9208. Well, maybe glass. hehehehe So, I think my problem is that I messed up and bought 218 and it's just not as high quality. It's half as thick as 9208, not as smooth, not as white, and is prone to occasional imperfections.


So, due to all of these factors, I think 9208, a coat of clear, and some foam board and good shipping materials should work for me. Once I get rich I'll try the claybord! hehehe


Well, thanks again and I will post a follow-up after my big demo!



Tim

[Milo]

Thanks, Maryl.


I checked out the claybord on the web but I am thinking I'll go with the Crescent 9208 instead. It is .090 inches thick (not as thick as the clayboard but pretty sturdy) and very white and veeeery smooth AND I can cut it with a utility knife or maybe even my matte cutter so I can buy a bigger size and just chop it up. Also, the clayboard is more than twice as costly as the 9208. One sheet of clayboard at 24" x 36" is $16 whereas I can get some 9208 for maybe $7 a sheet. I haven't FELT the claybord but I cannot imagine anything smoother than this 9208. Well, maybe glass. hehehehe

Yup the claybord feels about as smooth as glass :) Well go with what works for you and if you get a chance get a small Claybord sometime just to give it a go. and if you wanna see how to do canvas that smooth its a process but that link I posted earlier from A.D Cook has it down. (Maryl you may like it, it doesn't give the hardness of course but does make a smooth canvas)

Maryl when you use yours you will have to let us know how you like it.

And this should be post 99! woot one more for the big 100 LOL

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

weeeeeeeeeeeeee!


Well, the next time I make an order, I will get a small claybord to try! I will report back after i try it and give my opinion (fwiw).

I just didn't like the description saying it absorbed paint. If that is true, you could never really get back to a white w/o scraping off some of the surface.


Ah, well. I will TRY!!!!!!!! hehehehhe




Tim

[ABStan]

Hey Tim,

One word for you...GATORFOAM!!!!!. I have painted on this material a number of times and they say it is Archival. gatorfoam is way different to the normal mounting foam board. It has an extremely durable Luxel surface on both sides. This is a paper resin type material making the gatorfoam extremly light and 100 times more rigid than your average foam board. When I first started painting on it I was giving the surface a sand with say 240 grit sand paper. This helped the paint adhere really well. eraser techniques on the board work extremely well, even better I think than on a gessoed surface. The board is not susceptible to moisture, and UV and is therefore extremely stable. The guy I brought my 8'x4' sheet from said he had a peice in a bucket of water for 3 weeks and it didnt delaminate or absorb water. I beleive sign writers use it often for exterior signs and the like. After a sand, the surface takes washes of paint really well. The only thing I wasnt keen on was that the surface is not a bright white, , 2-3 coats of gesso would take care of that. It comes in thicknesses from 5mm(the stuff I use0 up to 20mm which is extremely rigid.

You should give it a go Tim, I think it might be just what you are looking for. Let me know how you get on Tim :) :)

Stan

[myorca]

I work strictly with Claybord Black for my scratchboard work. If you need a specific size that is not in Dick Blick's (or whoever)list of sizes, you can contact Ampersand directly and order the size that you wish to have. I have ordered 6x24, 10x30 before.

As far as cutting claybord it is not recommended. The edges will chip beyond belief. It is much easier to order custom sizes through Ampersand.


Bob

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

Thanks ABStan!

I saw the Gatorfoam while snooping on the web. It sounded like it was sturdy. I will buy a sheet or two of this and just compare when I make my next order. I don't want to have to "work" to get it paint-ready so I may end up sticking with the Crescent illustration board. It is very white too.


Thanks!

Tim

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

Thanks, myorca!

I will definitely order a piece and check it out.


Tim

[Penny220]

Maryl, there really is clay under the paint. If you buy the black you will see that there is a very fine coating of black over the white center. If anyone is interested in trying claybord but isn't sure if it's worth the investment, Michaels sells 3-5x7 boards in a pack or 1 - 8x10. Both are sold in black only and don't bother asking them if they have white or other sizes because most employees will tell you it only comes in black WRONG! Anywho, that's how you can try it without making a big investment. Also, I think clayboard is smoother than the smoothest illustration board. I'm sold on it.

[Caterwallin']

Ya know Tim, I had forgotten about the absorbency issue!

Does anyone know how absorbent clayboard is?

Sam

[ProfessorGreibowitz]

Gee, Sam, what's up with the new sig line?


Somebody been disapproving your posts? hehehehhehhe

Well, I'll try some things soon. I'll prob order this week and see what I like.


Tim

[Maryl Lehman]

Thanks Penny! So, how absorbent is Claybord anyway? Can I use my urethanes on it or will I have problems? I am anxious to try out the piece I got.

~Maryl

[ABStan]

Het Tim and Sam,
Yep, absorbancy is a big issue here. If any of you have doodled on cartridge paper with quite a thin mix of paint then you will know that the quality of line you get is much better than on a non absorbant surface. It is generally alot more trouble free with no fear of those dreaded spider webs. Not wanting to start painting on paper because of the high mounting costs I went out and got a sample pot of schminke absorbant ground. I sprayed a small gessoed sheet of masonite and hey presto....just like painting on paper and Tim.....you can erase on it as well :clap: :clap: :clap: Just a couple of varnish coats needed when finished. This works just as well on canvas apparently though I havent tried it yet. I wonder if anyone else here has had the opportunity to AB on absorbant ground....I would be interested to hear their thoughts on it.

Stan

[Penny220]

the surface it'self isn't very absorbant, I don't think the clay part of it is either.

Maryl, you will love this. It's as close to an automotive surface I have ever found with all of the benifits of an illustration board. Like me, you don't erase, but you might like to try some scratching with this.

[Caterwallin']

LOL! Tim!
Yes, I'm putting a spin on all of the political ad's that we see on TV.

Stan, I have not tried the absorbent ground. I do not want my support to be too absorbent! The only thing I can say is, I want it to act like illustration board. I have tried supports that allowed the paint to be absorbed way too much! I would spray a very fine line and let it sit for awhile. On close examination, you could see where the support had been too absorbent and allowed the paint to seep or wick away from it's original application. It's like pouring a line of water on a paper towel. This effect is very minute and is not even noticeable to most people, but, I can see it's overall softening affect it has on a finished piece! Maybe I need to treat the surface before I start! Like with the GAC500.

Sam

[myorca]

Claybord is supreme for scratching. I use it exclusively. Here is a pic of a scratch I am currently working on. I use a straightpin to do the scratching with, and the size of this is 18x24. I have not sprayed on this surface however there are a few scratchboarders who do.

Bob

[Keith Russell]

Foam board is fine, as long as you don't use frisket. The paper surface of the foam board is very thin, and even if the X-Acto doesn't cut right through it, it will tear, when you remove the frisket.

Clay Board is the absolute best surface I've ever used for airbrushing--again, until I put frisket over an already-painted area. Large already-painted areas were ruined, when I removed the frisket.

Illustration board is the best, though the best illustration board for airbrushing (Frisk CS-10) is no longer available.

I'm currently using a double-thick, 100 percent rag (acid-free) board from Crescent (9208). It's about the best I've found, as far as frisket pull-up goes), but its still not nearly as good as CS-10--not even close.

I'm getting really tired of frisket pull-up (I've been fighting it for 22 years) and I will be giving oil painting a try, soon.

K