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hward
04-16-2004, 03:39 PM
My painting heroes are Renoir and Michelangelo. I would like to master (at least partially) their warm humanity and lucid floridity.

Should a beginner copy their works directly, or are there other painters whose works should be copied first in preparation?

Are there standard exercises for this type of thing? What would Renoir or Michelangleo himself suggest?

I don't guess there's a good book titled "How to Paint like Renoir and Michelangelo, straightforward concrete steps for the advanced beginner".

arlene
04-16-2004, 04:03 PM
the question would be how much experience if any you have? drawing? painting? to paint like either you first need to know drawing.

WV.Artistry
04-16-2004, 05:12 PM
Arlene, respectfully, I would disagree with that somewhat.

Renoir's drawing skills can't be compared with Michelangelo's. And many painters equally, had drawing skills that were humble. Drawing is important, but if all painters relied upon drawing to paint -- most of them would've never picked up the brush.

There are artists with "drawing" skills here on WetCanvas that make Renoir look like an amateur.

Herb, I browsed around some of your posts. Personally, I'd say run with one of Renoir's more simple paintings. On canvas :) And some bookstore research into "impressionist" techniques would benefit you in big way!

You really need to expand your colors and get away from using so many primary schemes (unless you want to paint Michelango).

Here's a link you can read for palet suggestions.
http://www.artrenewal.com/articles/2002/Parkhurst/parkhurst1.asp

Some Renoir suggestions:
http://www.abcgallery.com/R/renoir/renoirlist.html

Banks of the Seine at Champrosay. 1876
Barges on the Seine. 1869
The Gust of Wind. 1872
Footpath in the Summer. 1874
Nude in the Sunlight. 1875

Hope some of that helps.

hward
04-16-2004, 05:19 PM
the question would be how much experience if any you have? drawing? painting? to paint like either you first need to know drawing.

Thx for interest. I worked with pencil for 16 months and then started painting.

I have 4 paintings in the "Open Critique" forum (the last painting "Stone Bridge" is a little weak). You can find them easily by [A] clicking on "hward" above, [B] then clicking on "find all threads started by hward", and [C] then selecting items in the "Open Critique" forum.

If you'd be willing to give me a little guidance, I assure you it will be used. I'm largely working on my own. Thx.

hward
04-16-2004, 05:37 PM
On canvas :)


Thank you. Two questions:

A. I can tape canvas to a board. Is that good enough, or do I need to stretch the canvas?

B. I'm using water-mixable oil because of poor ventilation. Is this a big handicap?

arlene
04-16-2004, 05:51 PM
Arlene, respectfully, I would disagree with that somewhat.

Renoir's drawing skills can't be compared with Michelangelo's. And many painters equally, had drawing skills that were humble. Drawing is important, but if all painters relied upon drawing to paint -- most of them would've never picked up the brush.

There are artists with "drawing" skills here on WetCanvas that make Renoir look like an amateur.

Herb, I browsed around some of your posts. Personally, I'd say run with one of Renoir's more simple paintings. On canvas :) And some bookstore research into "impressionist" techniques would benefit you in big way!

You really need to expand your colors and get away from using so many primary schemes (unless you want to paint Michelango).

Here's a link you can read for palet suggestions.
http://www.artrenewal.com/articles/2002/Parkhurst/parkhurst1.asp

Some Renoir suggestions:
http://www.abcgallery.com/R/renoir/renoirlist.html

Banks of the Seine at Champrosay. 1876
Barges on the Seine. 1869
The Gust of Wind. 1872
Footpath in the Summer. 1874
Nude in the Sunlight. 1875

Hope some of that helps.

Renoir like most artists we know of had classical training. Classical training started with drawing and still does. I stand by my statement. and Renoir could draw. If he couldn't draw he wouldn't have been able to paint the third reference.

Bottoni
04-16-2004, 06:08 PM
I have to agree with Arlene. If you are pulling off paintings with proper form, line and proportion (as well as value and colour), then you essentially 'know' how to draw. Almost every school or atelier will teach you to master drawing with pencil or charcoal before they teach you to paint in a classical realistic manner. However, r601020, you are correct in that you don't need to know how to draw in order to paint, BUT, it will make your life tremendously easier.

David

Lemnus
04-16-2004, 06:58 PM
You are all right - Renoir could draw. But, there was a period in his life when he believed he didn't (as opposed to couldn't perhaps) draw well and relied too much on color. This came about after seeing some Raphael works in person according to a book I read. He came back with a strong conviction to begin to draw more accurately and put stronger lines in his work - this is apparent in the stong outlines in The Bathers (study in 1884 especially). This "return to stonger drawing" phase marked what some believe to be a noticeable downturn in the liveliness he was known for. But if he pulled out of this "slump" eventually and resumed his more colorful, impressionist style again, especially toward the end of his career.

_00_
04-18-2004, 06:13 AM
...I don't guess there's a good book titled "How to Paint like Renoir and Michelangelo, straightforward concrete steps for the advanced beginner".
Might be what you are looking for:

Painting Like the Old Masters (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dpainting%252520like%252520old%252520masters/104-9999816-6285523)

Drawing Like Michelangelo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486238768/ref=qid=1082280552/sr=36-pd_sr_ec_ir_b/ref=sr_36_pd_sr_ec_ir_b_b/104-9999816-6285523)

Drawing Like The Old Masters (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0823014010/ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-9999816-6285523?v=glance&s=books)

Methods and Materials of Painting of the Great Schools and Masters (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486417263/ref=qid=1082280794/sr=36-pd_sr_ec_ir_b/ref=sr_36_pd_sr_ec_ir_b_b/104-9999816-6285523)

Anatomy Lessons from the Great Masters (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0823002810/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_f/104-9999816-6285523)

Impressionism: Painting Technique (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300084021/qid=1082281408/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/104-9999816-6285523?v=glance&s=books) "...the easel-painted work of Monet, Pissarro, Renoir, CÚzanne, Cassatt, Morisot, Caillebotte, Sisley, and Degas in the period before 1900, it places their methods and materials in a historical perspective and evaluates their origins, novelty, and meanings within the visual formation of urban modernity.Drawing on scientific studies of pigments and materials, artists' treatises, colormens'..."

_00_
04-18-2004, 08:36 AM
Thank you. Two questions:

A. I can tape canvas to a board. Is that good enough, or do I need to stretch the canvas?

B. I'm using water-mixable oil because of poor ventilation. Is this a big handicap?

A. Canvas: yes, tape all the way around smoothing out any ruffles or looseness -as opposed to taping just at the corners or some other limited way. If the painting is deemed worthy of hanging (at least for periods to study and to reflect on periodically for nothing less than learning) stretch it onto bars as soon as it is dry to the touch. Many artists paint on unstretched canvas and decide how to crop and stretch after completing the piece.

B. Water Soluble Oils: I have not used them but have read comments from people that the consistency is different and reg. oils are preferred. As for a "handicap" they are better than using acrylics for classical painting techniques and they are not so foreign that they should be avoided at all costs. If you ever can switch over, the bridge to traditional oils is shorter than using alternatives like acrylic, watercolor or gouache.

WV.Artistry
04-18-2004, 01:05 PM
Good posts Canada, especially on the books.

Re: water-oils. I've heard people use them for allergic reasons, etc., and in his case, vapors. I think they lack transparency, and don't mix as well as regular oils for blended tones. Their appearance in general seems more geared towards the bold, versus the subtle. But everyone has their own preferences, ey?

Looking at some "how to" books will help him with his future color selections, and approach. Thanks.

Herb, maybe somebody can make a suggestion for you for a reproduction attempt. My .02 cents is to keep it simple, finish it, then move on to the next project with a sense of accomplishment. There is a wealth of knowledge you can learn from the experience, but don't get too caught up in success/failure of the mimic process -- ultimately, it's your painting composition and ability that should be important, not your ability to copy :)

Best wishes, and have fun with it.

Richard

David Brown
04-19-2004, 04:06 PM
Good posts Canada, especially on the books.


Herb, maybe somebody can make a suggestion for you for a reproduction attempt. My .02 cents is to keep it simple, finish it, then move on to the next project with a sense of accomplishment. There is a wealth of knowledge you can learn from the experience, but don't get too caught up in success/failure of the mimic process -- ultimately, it's your painting composition and ability that should be important, not your ability to copy :)

Best wishes, and have fun with it.

Richard
Herb,
I agree with Richard, when I've attempted "copies" mostly Sargents (yes, I am ambitious) what surprised me was that usually somewhere along the way I stop imitating and the painting takes on my characteristics...I think this is a good thing all in all. After all there already is a portrait of Lady Agnew, why would we need another? The point is to be "influenced" by their style and evolve. They themselves did and would have continued to given the opportunity. Who knows, Renoir might have used the H2O misables if he had had them.
Good Luck
Dave