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JCoop
04-15-2004, 01:21 PM
Okay folks. It's time to represent our digital forum!

I was just over in the project section of WC! and was a bit put off by Project hosts that insist that no digital is allowed. Their was one in particular who started a painting project and eventually allowed glass works, yet no digital... as if we are the ugly ducklings of the art world.

I can understand a project host wanting to be specific about a certain discipline... I get that. But, the tone was like... we'll accept anything, absolutely anything, but digital!

I'd like to take requests for project Ideas and also hear your takes on this subject.

_Okay Troops... Who's with me?!

Elvira
04-15-2004, 01:25 PM
Joel, I'll try to particpate when the project is posted, at hten momment I'm out of ideas.
edie

LadyAlba
04-15-2004, 02:08 PM
I'm onboard!!

Landscape ? Portrait ? (I for one need practice in this and it is your expertise ;o))

JCoop
04-15-2004, 02:39 PM
Great Elvira & LadyAlba! Those are two good areas. LadyAlba, any thoughts on how we can take those areas and add some spice? Maybe a twist? I'm open to anything! Let's see what the others have to say...

Thanks for your enthusiasm!!!

justjean
04-15-2004, 02:49 PM
Not sure what this entails but I'd like to try :)

Chiers
04-15-2004, 02:56 PM
Having a project is always a good idea Joel. I would participate when I can.

As far as project hosts that don't allow digital, well sorry to say I understand why they may not want to. Digital art is not understood by many people and perhaps maybe thats why they don't want it. On the other hand, perhaps they understand it too well and thats why they don't want it.

I love digital art and when I first discovered it I also thought that many traditional artist were some what snobby about it. But now, well I know that there is so much dishonesty when it comes to digital art that even I have been put off by digital forums and am doing more and more traditional now.

There is even confusion amoung digital artists about it. What is it....is it art...is it painting....blah blah blah. Anyway this is how I see it. Those who aren't familiar with digital painting think it's all done with filters and effects and don't realize that a real digital "painter" uses the same knowledge and techniques for the most part that would be used in traditonal mediums. And those who ARE familiar with digital "painting" Know how easily it can be faked and don't want to contend with that end of it.

DISCLAIMER.....don't confuse my comment about digital "painting" to mean digital "art". Both are art.

Anyway, that's the way I see it and I understand perfectly why they don't want it. Besides, we have forums for it anyway. Right.

themanda
04-15-2004, 03:13 PM
i'd be behind you, joel. :)

SabZero
04-15-2004, 03:25 PM
I'm not sure I get this. Why not just make digital specific projects?

I know I'd be interested in it. :D

Jet
04-15-2004, 03:26 PM
******THE EAGLE HAS LANDED !!***** :evil:
That's what i've been talking about all this time my friend. It's no surprise to me, It was just a matter of time, when digital became so unique that some DINOPAINTERS would get reluctant to side-to-side comparisons, knowing that digital would blow most of their works off in a jiffy.
Don't get angry, better yet get happy because it only means that digital has surpassed them in more than a few ways.

It means that digital is here to stay, they didn't kick you out, they were SCARED big time knowing what you're capable of doing, they felt displaced already. It was a BOW to digital !!
OK Dinos let's play the same game in different force divisions, we don't want anyone getting hurt !!

------***--***--***--**--
Joel , i would like to suggest we start by
1.- doing the same topic as the one you were banned from.- same game, just different force divisions.
2.- we can allow dinopainters get in the project, knowing beforehand most of them will chicken out, but there will be some friends that would like to bring traditional into the project which is alright.
3.-Let's stay cool and open to all art fashions, we're the ones with the open mind, as here everything goes, and everyone is treated as equals.
********The following suggestion can be voted for or against*******
(4.-Photomanips or filtered renditions are welcome too, being aware that they must have a high degree of proficiency not just one-button-pushers tasteless stuff.)

Can't think of anything else at the moment !!

**i'll be Ready before reveille Capt.

Regards

flowerfancy58
04-15-2004, 03:47 PM
Hi Joel,
I'm all for it! I do note however that there is a project underway here with the topic being landscapes:)
I have never visited the board you are referring to and didn't spot it either, so I don't know what sort of thing they are working on. Could you send me a link to it so I may get a better idea of what sort of project they are doing?
Then I'll put my thinking cap on and see if I can come up with a suggestion or two.
As far as whether or not digital is accepted or not accepted by others, I don't even bother to enter that debate. From everything I've seen so far, I doubt it is a winnable arguement, lol My best analogy is ...... apples and oranges, different, both are fruit, and both taste great. Same way with art forms:)

gloria

Chiers
04-15-2004, 04:14 PM
LOL...Jet being what you call a "Dinopainter", and a digital artist, I have to disagree with your assesment that traditonal artists are afraid of digital art. I very much love digital painting but the honest truth is that it is not the same thing as traditional painting because of it's very nature. I can paint a picture at times digitally that looks better, and more three dimensional that real life photo would look. Digital makes that much easier because of the advantages, and because it eliminates some of the drawbacks my physical problems create. And while it's very true that I cannot create such reality as well with traditional mediums, (although some can) digital will never take the place of them. Unless you are a traditional artist, good or bad, it's hard to understand what the traditional artist is thinking/feeling when they reject digital art. I have painted some digital paintings that, depending on whose looking, LOL, are pretty darn good but I have yet to paint one that gives me the same sense of acompishment personally that my oil paintings do!

I don't understand the bad feelings for traditional artist that some digital artist seem to have. To me its the same as the difference between painting and sculpting,or any of the countless other artistic things people do. None should be held as any more revered than another, but it needs be recognized that they are "Different". I really wish people could understand that without attaching resentments. All artistic endevors are wonderful. Because mine happens to be painting doesn't make another kind any less than what I do.

:D "Different". I really wish people could understand that without attaching resentments. All artistic endevors are wonderful

JCoop
04-15-2004, 04:40 PM
Jean, I'm glad you're in! Once we decide on a project, we'll layout the steps necessary for joining. Thanks!

Sherry, you do make a lot of sense, but I don't think we should resign ourselves to only posting in digital forums. Their are alot of forums that are not medium specific. Digital art basically gets ignored in some of these forums. I know this because I've had several occasions where I get PMs where people will comment on my work in private, but won't dare to comment in the public forum. It's not a conspiracy, it's just a lack of understanding.
I don't really get hung up on the negative aspects of how a person expresses his or herself through their art, and I don't care to challenge people about how they created their art. My thing is to just enjoy the art no matter how you get to your result. If you say you did a, b & c thats good enough for me.

Manda, thanks! you're in!

SabZero, Thanks for your input and your interest. The point is not to make a digital specific project. It is to make a project where everyone is included. Although their is nothing wrong with making a digital specific project. My objection is when someone makes a general all-inclusive project and then says... but no digital.

Jet, I hear ya! You've been the biggest proponent on this subject. You need to know that I stand behind your enthusiastic approach. You're right, we don't gain anything by excluding anyone. We only gain by including and learning from each other. I know where your passion for this subject comes from because you've been at it as long as I have.
I don't mind beginners participating... I too was once a beginner. I think they can learn and contribute and who knows, we might learn a thing or two from them. The point is... lets everybody create and enjoy the process. Whether someone paints strokes or uses filters or or a combination, whatever... for the purposes of enjoying the art and the results, it doesn't matter.

I think these discussions are healthy. Let's respect traditional artists as we would like to be respected as digital artists.

JCoop
04-15-2004, 04:56 PM
Gloria, you snuck in there on me. Thanks for your input. I'd give you a link, but I hesitate to bring any disparagement to the specific project host. If you surf you'll find some. Many times you'll have to read through the project forum posts to get a good sense what I'm referring to.
I'd like to come up with a project idea among this forum without the influence of other projects. Please post your ideas. Doesn't have to be anything fancy. Many times other members can expound upon the ideas and we can all come to a consensus.

Ideas Ideas Ideas lets hear some...

Jet
04-15-2004, 05:00 PM
Sherry,
i as many others respect and admire traditional painting, how else could i explain we're trying to emulate the works of the masters.
At the same time i respect all artists, from cooks to martial artists and everyone in between.
I confidently assure you that every digital artist thought at one time that they were welcome by traditional painters, but it has been the opposite, it is not digitals who start rejecting traditionals, what you perceive now is the digital artist's reaction to some traditional artist attack or rejection.

Digitals try to emulate traditional arts but traditional artists , keep putting them down, rejecting them, and on and on and on...So after a while, of reading harsh criticism and constant rejection , a common notion is being formed.

The latest example to this is my friend Joel who up to a few hours ago he FIRMLY BELIEVED he would be welcome to their gatherings or projects, eventhough i had told him on numerous occasions what to expect.
...So now in this thread you're being witness of Joel's first time ever talking like that about traditional artists.
He was thinking he was welcome, until the doors were closed right in his nose.
How do you think he will feel from now on about the dinos.

By the way, the dino-painters are those who aren't able to overcome their hate toward digital arts and never even try it for fear or by clumsiness knowing they would never be able to go out of the box and stay as neophytes forever.- it's not so easy to jump into digital so they hide it by putting it as a no-good thing so they don't feel so stupid for not knowing how to take a new tendency or branch of their own art.- just remember how traditionals hated Van Gogh, Monet, Picasso or some other who wasn't painting 'realistically' at that time, because that was not real art , DDDUUUHHH!!!
As their bird brains were unable to process that new info , it was easier to stay together and place imaginary rules for hiding their own ignorance or impotency.
How wise is that saying- Those who ignore history are condemned to repeating it !!

You're not a dinopainter, nor amanda or any other open-minded traditional who still think is alright to go back and forth as they please. The dino painters are that specie close to extinction just as dinosaurs were in the past.

So,now you know, we never throw the first stone, and to prove it one more time :this day will be remembered by Joel as that day when he first got that stone thrown at him.

Regards

Chiers
04-15-2004, 05:45 PM
Sherry, you do make a lot of sense, but I don't think we should resign ourselves to only posting in digital forums. Their are alot of forums that are not medium specific. Digital art basically gets ignored in some of these forums. I know this because I've had several occasions where I get PMs where people will comment on my work in private, but won't dare to comment in the public forum. It's not a conspiracy, it's just a lack of understanding.
I agree Joel! And I do know that in some of the forums a digital peice doesn't get much response.As you say there are forums that arent' medium specific and those are fun. WDEs for example. I just think, and understand the thoughts behind the ones that are medium specific.

I don't really get hung up on the negative aspects of how a person expresses his or herself through their art, and I don't care to challenge people about how they created their art. My thing is to just enjoy the art no matter how you get to your result. If you say you did a, b & c thats good enough for me.

I agree too for the most part! I could care less about how a piece of artwork is created. Unless of course I want to learn about a certain technique. However when someone claims to have done something they didn't, in other words, lies about it, then I do care! And one of the reasons thats so is because those kind of lies influence the way the world of traditional art perceives digital art. Therefore making it more difficult for digital artists to get the recognition they deserve,and perhaps makes them unwelcome in other forums.

I guess I just think that no matter what the medium or how a peice of art was created, if the artist wants to share the process, then do, if the artist does'nt want to share, then don't. But above all, don't lie about it.

And I must also add Joel, your talent is so obvious I can't imagine why any real artist wouldn't comment on it just because it's digital unless they just don't understand digital painting. But again, I realize my way of thinking isn't the way the rest of the world thinks often times. LOL And also, I think discussion about this is a good thing too. Perhaps it will someday promote a little more understanding of digital art.

Jet So,now you know, we never throw the first stone, and to prove it one more time :this day will be remembered by Joel as that day when he first got that stone thrown at him.
I guess I just don't view it as throwing stones. :D

Elvira
04-15-2004, 05:58 PM
My experience with traditional and digital painting has been that painting digitally in more difficult but cleaner LOL, but the traditionalist as a rule have no idea what goes into painting dititally and think the computer creates the image by the operator pushing a few buttons and that it requires no skill or understanding of the elements of Art such as space, form or colour.

They are just like my family who want me to do some paintings for them but don't want them done on the computer.

So let us not worry about them but get on with enjoying making art by whatever means suits your fancy and mood of the moment.
Edie

JCoop
04-15-2004, 06:16 PM
Edie, nicely put! Your voice of reason resonates with me... thank you.

Ideas Ideas Ideas... let's hear some!

flowerfancy58
04-15-2004, 06:26 PM
Okay Joel,

I'll just toss this in the ring for an idea. I saw the postings re: hair, and thought that would be a good project. We are all in search of the perfect way to do it digitally:)

Of course there is always Still Life , which could be a lot of fun too!

gloria

Jet
04-15-2004, 06:29 PM
Joel,
We can start by doing something easy enough to get everyone interested.

In order of difficulty i would place hardest
1- Human body and its parts
2.- animals
4.- machinery automobiles
3.- architecture as buildings and streets for their perspectives and vanishing points.
4. plants , flowers
5.- fruits in a bowl
6.- landscape, forest and mountains
7.-Sea and sky
i might have left some others out as jewlery or planets or clothes as it is just for getting some general ideas.

I would go with something of 6 and/or 7; That's just an idea !!

Regards

ps. sorry Gloria we just cross posted- hair is alright too.

TheAndroid
04-15-2004, 07:04 PM
Joel and Jorge - I completely agree with what you are saying. I have often found that traditional artists sort of look down on what I do. I think it has to do with the massive amount of stuff done by "filter kiddies" for their web sites.

However Jorge, this list represents the pixel pushers view of things. :) Us vector jockeys would be doubly challenged to create clouds. I personally think buildings are the easiest. It has to do with the medium... er software, uh, technique. :confused:

Either way, I'm in for as much as my lack of free time permits!

JulieBoyles
04-15-2004, 07:27 PM
Joel,

I would love to take part in some sort of project, so count me in. My first thought for a project was something along the lines as the Weekend Drawing event. We could choose 3 or 4 ideas or references and draw,paint,vector whichever one we want. Or we could focus on a single design element such as glass or water or even one color. These are just some randon thoughts. I've never participated in a project before so this will be a new thing for me. Count me in and let me know if I can help.

Julie :D

LadyAlba
04-15-2004, 08:45 PM
We could do an association such as we do at the Loft.........Pick a word such as:

Reflections
Sun
Moonlight
Fear
Happiness
etc.

Go with the flow of the word and paint what it brings to mind for you at the moment. We are working on Africa for this week. This is a wonderful way to increase our creativness and practice our painting at the same time.

flowerfancy58
04-15-2004, 09:06 PM
Joel,
And then there are shadows, wonderful shadows........long ones, dark, looming, faint.......and so on, lol!!

There are a lot of great suggestions already posted now. You could save them on a list and use them for future projects too.

gloria:)

JCoop
04-15-2004, 09:17 PM
I know we're all busy, but lets do it! We can all make this already awsome forum an even more awsome place!

I like all the suggestions. Jet, I really I like the way you have focused it nicely for us. Gloria, your suggestion is great too. LadyAlba, your suggestion may hold the greatest possibilities for the greatest number of artists... this way artists like TheAndroid would be comfortable as well. Also this would allow us to conceptualize in a personal manner. The entries would be total surprises this way.

So lets combine Jet's numbered voting list idea with LadyAlba's word association idea. Lets cut to the chase! LadyAlba, do you mind creating the list since you have experience with this. Maybe a list of 8 words and posting them here. Then we will vote on the list and I'll create a project around the winner.
We'll wait for LadyAlba's list and the voting will begin!...

LadyAlba
04-15-2004, 09:35 PM
Here we go! I tried to get what had been mentioned so far these words can mean alot of things to different people. ;o)

Hair
Shadows
Reflections
Clouds
Fear
Hope
Flying
Orient

flowerfancy58
04-16-2004, 03:14 AM
Thank you Lady Alba:)
I'll vote for clouds, and Orient!


gloria;)

Jet
04-16-2004, 04:21 AM
Joel,
this can be posted in a new thread as a poll for better presentation and instant feedback on the voting results !!

Just an idea ! :rolleyes:

Regards
:cool:

JCoop
04-16-2004, 09:05 AM
Okay Jet, you're in charge of logistics... you always seem so organized. I tried to set up the poll very quickly, and was unsuccessful. Do you mind setting it up? Thanks in advance!
Make sure you place a link from here to the polling thread.

Gloria, that's two votes... pretty sneaky :evil: :D ... don't forget to vote again at the polling site.

Thanks Jet, & Gloria!

JCoop
04-16-2004, 11:51 AM
Jet, I managed to figure out the polling system. I went ahead and set it up.

JCoop
04-16-2004, 11:52 AM
Okay everyone, cast your vote here!:
(At the top of the page, you will see the voting options)

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2229086#post2229086

@mD
04-18-2004, 12:11 PM
I think "the ugly ducklings" should start a project inviting all the other forums.I would enjoy seeing pictures on the same subjects done in different medias.Lets unite.I would like to have wisdom word as a subject.Proverb,ex
FRIENLINESS IS HARD TO GIVE AWAY AS ITS OFTEN GIVEN BACK.
Joel,the wwdf is with you.(world wide digital force) :clap:

ExpressMark
04-18-2004, 02:38 PM
Okay folks. It's time to represent our digital forum!

I was just over in the project section of WC! and was a bit put off by Project hosts that insist that no digital is allowed. Their was one in particular who started a painting project and eventually allowed glass works, yet no digital... as if we are the ugly ducklings of the art world.

I can understand a project host wanting to be specific about a certain discipline... I get that. But, the tone was like... we'll accept anything, absolutely anything, but digital!

I'd like to take requests for project Ideas and also hear your takes on this subject.

_Okay Troops... Who's with me?!


As far as having project ideas and such, I think having some might be good thing worth doing.

As far as this other group not letting Digital Art, partly that saddens me, but its completely understandable. I remember when it used to really burn me, and make me mad.
But, the more I found myself finding Digital Artist or let me re phrase that, so called Digital Artist, making themselves out to be portrait artist and such like and in fact they were caught cheating... no I do mean using a trick or two I mean making someone believe they accomplished an effect or result by masterful strokes of the brush.
When all they did was use methods of desception to accomplish the goal.

I have exposed a few of them!!! I remember this one guy who would take a photo, then pull sections of the photo like the eyes, then the nose and mouth and place them over his picture and paint around them.

Now this isnt a bad practice, in fact in can teach you alot about painting. But what He was doing was making people believe He painted each stroke, the eyes, nose, and mouth and ears and hands, and ect ect ect....

Most of the time it is the ease of the ability to Cheat that makes us the Digital Artist suspect, I hate it when people cast that reflection on me, cause I know I draw it, or paint it stroke by stroke just as I do with my actual Oil Paintings, or pencil drawings, or Charcoal Drawings.


If we really want to bring attention to the Digital Art world and assist in legitizing its worth.
Then it would be nice to see a project that would force belief on everyones part that beholds its completion.

I think a project, that did not use any photos, or even photo refference. FOr one, and might even include its process step by step.
In fact I have already been thinking something along this line. I am considering a tutorial that will be a streaming video that will show from begining to end each process, each stroke and so on.
TO bring or help legitimize Digital Art.

Anyway, you asked... :) so theres my 2 cents

ExpressMark
MBStudios

JCoop
04-18-2004, 03:58 PM
@mD, I appreciate your enthusiasm and your project Idea is an awsome one!... definitely worth exploring for a subsequent project. WWDF... I like that! Thanks for your supportive comments.

ExpressMark, thanks for weighing in. Your idea of painting without a ref is also an excellent one! We could implement that too in one of our projects. That would really be different and challenging.

I hear what your saying about the deception. Showing step, by step is always an excellent learning tool for others. I do encourage that, but only for the purposes of learning. I think if we get bogged down in trying to prove to the world that we're not cheating, focus and creativity suffers. In fact, I'm getting the sense that cheating isn't the real problem. I think the real problem stems from the fact that digital art is perceived as easier in general, and therefore viewed as a crutch.

IMO, If we stay true to our principles of artistic integrety, and continue to do the best works that we can, they'll come a point when we can't be denied. I'm already seeing the tide turn, but sometimes it turns slower than we would hope in certain areas.

BTW, the story about the guy painting around the body parts is hilarious! I've seen a few examples that made me wonder, but nothing that ridiculous. :D

Thanks for sharing.

Don't forget to vote: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182385&page=1&pp=15

flowerfancy58
04-18-2004, 04:31 PM
If I am understanding how this will work, we will be given the subject (not an image for reference) and then asked to create an image around it, right?

gloria:)

ExpressMark
04-18-2004, 04:48 PM
@mD, I appreciate your enthusiasm and your project Idea is an awsome one!... definitely worth exploring for a subsequent project. WWDF... I like that! Thanks for your supportive comments.

ExpressMark, thanks for weighing in. Your idea of painting without a ref is also an excellent one! We could implement that too in one of our projects. That would really be different and challenging.

I hear what your saying about the deception. Showing step, by step is always an excellent learning tool for others. I do encourage that, but only for the purposes of learning. I think if we get bogged down in trying to prove to the world that we're not cheating, focus and creativity suffers. In fact, I'm getting the sense that cheating isn't the real problem. I think the real problem stems from the fact that digital art is perceived as easier in general, and therefore viewed as a crutch.

IMO, If we stay true to our principles of artistic integrety, and continue to do the best works that we can, they'll come a point when we can't be denied. I'm already seeing the tide turn, but sometimes it turns slower than we would hope in certain areas.

BTW, the story about the guy painting around the body parts is hilarious! I've seen a few examples that made me wonder, but nothing that ridiculous. :D

Thanks for sharing.

Don't forget to vote: http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182385&page=1&pp=15


"In fact, I'm getting the sense that cheating isn't the real problem. I think the real problem stems from the fact that digital art is perceived as easier in general"

I disagree! I live on both sides of the fence, I am a Portrait Artist and if anything I have learned is we are all trying to find an easier path, a better way.
Its not the easy that is the culprit, it is the deceptive individuals. Besides there is no Easy if you are in fact holding to Artistic Integrety.
In the portrait world you will see peoples work and their humble beginings and see them progress to better and better likenesses.
However, in the Digital world, you see perfect likenesses, no harm in that, if they are honest in the method.
The Harm comes when they in fact present their beautiful works, to find that they are not maintaining Artistic Integrety, instead they are out and out frauds.

This is what makes Digital art questionable among traditionalist, and I personally dont blame them for a minute. I am a Digitl Artist, and I find myself more and more questioning Digital art as more and more are rising up to give it a bad name.

The real stinker is, and this is funny, is they theey really think they have traditional artist fooled. 9 times out of 10, they dont. Even if they get by for a while they will be exposed.

Its so easy to detect, its hillarious. I know a few right now that are doing it, so far I havent said anything, though there was a time I would have nailed them to the wall publically without hesitation.

Right now I am trying to make better use of my time, in a constructive manner.

Anyway, about the step by step, how would that confuse our focus and creativity? The fact is, as the project is being done you simply stop for a sec save as jpg then continue...

Well, talked enough probably said to much. Anyway, going to get back to practicing see what I can learn today.


ExpressMark
MBStudios

dcorc
04-18-2004, 06:01 PM
Hi Joel, & folks

Just dropped in to lend my support! While some of you may know me as an oil painter, from the WDEs or my posts on the oil forum, I do some digital stuff too (just haven't done much recently, which is why I haven't tended to show up here).

Unless projects are medium-specific and intended to explore technical issues particular to that medium, it seems to me churlish to exclude digital (or for that matter any other medium) - I think part of the problem is that many traditional painters have little or no idea of what it is possible to do in applications such as Painter, PhotoShop, OpenCanvas, and DogWaffle (to mention only some of the "pixel-pushing" possibilities).

I'd strongly encourage more of you to join in the WDE's as one way of spreading the word.

Dave

ExpressMark
04-18-2004, 06:17 PM
Hi Joel, & folks

Just dropped in to lend my support! While some of you may know me as an oil painter, from the WDEs or my posts on the oil forum, I do some digital stuff too (just haven't done much recently, which is why I haven't tended to show up here).

Unless projects are medium-specific and intended to explore technical issues particular to that medium, it seems to me churlish to exclude digital (or for that matter any other medium) - I think part of the problem is that many traditional painters have little or no idea of what it is possible to do in applications such as Painter, PhotoShop, OpenCanvas, and DogWaffle (to mention only some of the "pixel-pushing" possibilities).

I'd strongly encourage more of you to join in the WDE's as one way of spreading the word.

Dave

Good point Dave,

Tell me though, all you all keep throwing initials out and I have been out for awhile what is WDE????
LOL

ExpressMark
MBStudios

dcorc
04-18-2004, 06:37 PM
Tell me though, all you all keep throwing initials out and I have been out for awhile what is WDE????
LOL

ExpressMark
MBStudios

Weekend Drawing Events - on the new All-Media Events forum - see here for details of yesterday's:http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182678

after two hours work, you post a thread for your work onto the forum:http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=133

Dave

JCoop
04-18-2004, 06:40 PM
Dave, excellent. You've said it nicely!
ExpressMark, maybe I think you've confused my point. I wholeheartedly support step by step for the purposes of learning and sharing. I think it's not so cool to do them just to prove that one's art is legitimate. That's what I mean about focus... approaching things for the "right" reasons.

WDE stands for Weekend Drawing Event. Every weekend bunches of us get together and have fun for two hours painting and drawing... then we get together and comment on all the works. It's loads of fun. It's a great bunch of open-minded people and digital art is, in my experience, always accepted as legit! It's usually on Saturday at 4PM.

Heres the channel:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=133

Jet
04-19-2004, 02:41 PM
However, in the Digital world, you see perfect likenesses, no harm in that, if they are honest in the method.
The Harm comes when they in fact present their beautiful works, to find that they are not maintaining Artistic Integrety, instead they are out and out frauds.

This is what makes Digital art questionable among traditionalist, and I personally dont blame them for a minute. I am a Digitl Artist, and I find myself more and more questioning Digital art as more and more are rising up to give it a bad name.

The real stinker is, and this is funny, is they theey really think they have traditional artist fooled. 9 times out of 10, they dont. Even if they get by for a while they will be exposed.

I believe the problem starts when some jerk is trying to please some traditionals and falls in their game and he lies just for being "one of the guys".

I never like to say how i did my piece, unless somebody asks about procedure.
And i would gladly answer, BUT.... 3 out 5 times i receive a looong lecture on why i let others think my piece was all painted from scratch...
WWhhoooa!!...that artist got mad because HE was thinking i had done my work using traditional methods, and when i tell them how many filters and tweakings took me to get to that result ( i feeling proud about it), he feels so stupid for believing it was something he imagined but talks crappy to me for having been fooled !! --- PLOP !! ---
So actually this is how it all started ,+PLUS+ it got worse when some dishonest 'artists' actually claimed doing all the work by themselves, which i don't understand WHAT FOR !!.

There is no pleasure or merit in lying about the procedure in our works just to please or deceive other people - it just doesn't make any sense to me at all -
I proudly present my works and tell general methods i employ.
Not the whole procedure to the minute either- as we all know that some procedures must reamain secret, as they constitute the artist's trademark, and lots of people do make money by selling these methods.

Other than that, i like helping newbies and pros alike in any endeavour or project they're working on.

Sometimes i can 'feel' the question or i know the one who is asking as someone who hates digital manipulation, and i just don't answer his question knowing he's in sincere doubt about my method- If he needs to ask it means that he didn't find any flaws and i know what comes next when i tell him the method i employed-
Generally there are two types: the ones who ask to honestly and open-mindedly figure the method out, and the ones that find the result so believeable that want a confirmation for praising or trashing my work, so to all these last ones i tell them -if you need to ask you better stay in doubt !!

I have my methods so rooted, that even those works i start from scratch have to go to some embellishment after the work is finished !!

To all digital artists- don't lie about your methods, feels like you're ashamed of using filters or plug-ins in your works.
Let's understand that digital art is a different game, with so many variants with different rules and we have to respect one another, for using as many as we decide to use -

* Think of this as a weekend riders team, traditionals are doing the ride on their bicycles and digitals ride our motorcycles, we can go enjoying the ride together for some time but at some points there will be some activities that will feel more natural and enjoyable doing with your own group than all together.
But most important of all, don't try to disguise as one of the other group it just isn't worth it , nor desirable, unless there is something loose in your brain... and that's another story... :D

Regards

themanda
04-19-2004, 03:17 PM
i think the main problem, really, is that we're all artists...we all think that *our* way is the *best* way. that way can be traditional oil on canvas, or pastel, or digital image manipulation, or pure digital creation. what about the artist that uses mixed media to create three dimensional paintings on canvas? what about the sculptor who uses discarded auto parts to create new pieces of work? everyone--and i mean everyone--will have a different way of using the tools around them. it's one of the reasons we came down out of the trees to begin with.

average joe on the street couldn't care less what methods someone used to create a 'pretty picture'. he'll just try to figure out what room to hang it in. it's only when you deal with other artists that the issue of purity and integrity and method come into play.

i, personally, don't care if someone paints around cut-out facial features. i would admire the clever mind that thought up that idea in the first place. i don't care if someone uses a photo as a base and does nothing but manipulation to it to create a new work. i would admire the knowledge of the program and the artistic spirit that created it. i don't care if someone sits down and does an original portrait in painter with no reference. i would admire the perspective and the talent that went into the creation. all three scenarios,to me, are just different angles of the unlimited facets that comprise art in general.

i think when you take a step back and really examine the question you realize that there is no winner; there is no right or wrong. i work different than jorge, who works differently than joel, who works differently than mark...medium has little or nothing to do with it. it's all about what you feel and what you see and what you touch that motivates you to create on any level, digitally or not.

so if someone wants to exclude me because of my choice of medium, they can. it won't affect my product or my creative spirit. if someone wants to tell me that i'm cheating because i use photoshop, they can. it won't change the fact that i'm not. :)

like i always tell my son: you cannot change how people around you act, but you can change your reaction to them.

fugitive
04-19-2004, 04:49 PM
I think "the ugly ducklings" should start a project inviting all the other forums.I would enjoy seeing pictures on the same subjects done in different medias.Lets unite.I would like to have wisdom word as a subject.Proverb,ex
FRIENLINESS IS HARD TO GIVE AWAY AS ITS OFTEN GIVEN BACK.
Joel,the wwdf is with you.(world wide digital force) :clap:I promote digital, and have tried to post in watercolor, and Pastels, more than once, big descussions have occured, decissions were made. At one point, I thot I had made in into Pastels, but some narrow minded mods,hall monitors, stopped me, so I say, bring it on.

ExpressMark
04-19-2004, 05:14 PM
I would be among the first to say, that anyone that would lecture you simply because you used methods other than traditional was out of line.

But I understand their frustration, the point of filters is in fact created to appear as though it is done tradtionally... you know, like a filter than turns a photo into a sketch, or a painting.

Then if it is posted in a traditional forum, one would naturally assume it was being displayed as a traditional piece, thus I understand their frustration.
In fact it seems out of place to place a Digital Piece in a Traditional Forum if the Digital Piece does not or was not created using traditional methods.

This is where my frustration comes in, because I would like to be able to submit work to Traditional forums, but as soon as it is learned that it is digital art, then my art becomes suspect.

Let me make a final point on this as it seems by a few they might perceive I am against Photo manipulation... I am not, seen some neat art that way.

I am against deception..... You know the type... Look at my piece I drew, isnt beautiful, took me hours and hours of drawing...., then they give you advice on how to draw, and paint traditonally..... then you find out that the advice you at got was from individuals that are not diciplined in traditonal methods, but they are good at making people believe a lie.

That is what I am against.. not a medium, or choice of medium...

They choose to be photo manipulationist ( lol is there such a word?) anyway then more power to them, but, I draw the line at deception, thats not right, nor should be tolerated by any digital artist because it makes us all look suspect.

But one day maybe we will be taken more seriously, as for me I am in hopes we all will.

ExpressMark
MBStudios

JCoop
04-19-2004, 05:51 PM
What an awsome debate!!! I think we're all better for it.
Thanks Manda & Greg for taking the time to add your views!

fugitive
04-19-2004, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=ExpressMark]I would be among the first to say, that anyone that would lecture you simply because you used methods other than traditional was out of line.

But I understand their frustration, the point of filters is in fact created to appear as though it is done tradtionally... you know, like a filter than turns a photo into a sketch, or a painting.

Then if it is posted in a traditional forum, one would naturally assume it was being displayed as a traditional piece, thus I understand their frustration.
In fact it seems out of place to place a Digital Piece in a Traditional Forum if the Digital Piece does not or was not created using traditional methods.

This is where my frustration comes in, because I would like to be able to submit work to Traditional forums, but as soon as it is learned that it is digital art, then my art becomes suspect.Mark, I actually posted and fooled the folks in Pastels, with my stuff, not because of filters, but because it looked, just like a chalk on paper work. I got a bunch of comps on it as well, and then, they found out it was digi. Some had no problem with that but some, one was Mo, were way against it. I just wanted to participate with folks, doing like work. True, I can't relate to the tooth of paper, but I can, to color, texture, brush strokes, and all.
greg

ExpressMark
04-19-2004, 07:03 PM
Mark, I actually posted and fooled the folks in Pastels, with my stuff, not because of filters, but because it looked, just like a chalk on paper work. I got a bunch of comps on it as well, and then, they found out it was digi. Some had no problem with that but some, one was Mo, were way against it. I just wanted to participate with folks, doing like work. True, I can't relate to the tooth of paper, but I can, to color, texture, brush strokes, and all.
greg

Now that they know Greg then now you should be able to express your art with them and know one could now say you are trying to get one over on them, only now you are expressing like art as you said.
See, this is what I have been trying to say all along, there is nothing wrong with the process, where the lines get confused and cast shadows on us all is when they make other believe its something it isnt.

Since it isnt a problem with them then I would move forward and show what you can do, and just how good you can do it.

ExpressMark
MBStudios

dcorc
04-19-2004, 07:48 PM
[QUOTE=ExpressMark] This is where my frustration comes in, because I would like to be able to submit work to Traditional forums

Greg - what you're wanting to do though, is to post into the medium-specific forums - surely the point of medium-specific forums is to discuss technical points relevant to that particular medium - for example, I paint in oils, and I can use Painter to paint images where you might be hard-pushed to decide whether its oils or digital - but the processes while similar in some ways are not identical - there are technical tricks which are specific to real oils, and technical tricks which are specific to digital oils.

Within the "traditional" field, it's perfectly possible to paint oils that look like acrylics, and acrylics can be made to look like oils or watercolour - but that's not a reason to post an acrylic to the watercolour or oils forums.

There's nothing at all to stop you posting into the subject forums - portrait, figure, still life, landscape etc etc

Jet - rather than taking a "them and us" attitude, I'd encourage "traditional" artists to do some digital work and digital artists to work in traditional media too.

Dave

Chiers
04-19-2004, 09:55 PM
Greg - what you're wanting to do though, is to post into the medium-specific forums - surely the point of medium-specific forums is to discuss technical points relevant to that particular medium - for example, I paint in oils, and I can use Painter to paint images where you might be hard-pushed to decide whether its oils or digital - but the processes while similar in some ways are not identical - there are technical tricks which are specific to real oils, and technical tricks which are specific to digital oils.

YEAH! Exactly what I meant to say. I guess I have at least tryed almost all traditional mediums and the truth is no matter what the name for a brush is in the digital programs it's still different than the actual thing. For instance I can make thedigital oil brush paint strokes that look exactly like a chalk mark, or watercolor stroke with no more than a change of settings, but still using the same brush. It doesn't work that way in reality. Digital really has no place in traditional medium specific forums.

Jet
04-19-2004, 11:36 PM
Greg Within the "traditional" field, it's perfectly possible to paint oils that look like acrylics, and acrylics can be made to look like oils or watercolour - but that's not a reason to post an acrylic to the watercolour or oils forums.

There's nothing at all to stop you posting into the subject forums - portrait, figure, still life, landscape etc etc

Jet - rather than taking a "them and us" attitude, I'd encourage "traditional" artists to do some digital work and digital artists to work in traditional media too.

Dave

Yes , that's correct about the specific forums- that's ONLY one medium forums-nothing to argue there.

About the us and them, i am not the one with the attitude, for me it doesn't matter the medium, for me all are different fruits with different flavors and colors, and i love how i can combine water and oil in a single piece with digital.

The segregation started when Joel wanted to participate in a MIXED project and he was banned. I'm sure they would've let him in, IF his work sucked.
So i know exactly where i'm standing, and i know that digital was alright a few years back when it wasn't as close as the real thing because they could spot a digital piece right away, but they cant't get over the fact that this 'guy' named Joel with so few years of experience will come and show some great results with some 'alien' medium, making look bad the 'BIG GUYS' with 150 years of experience used to the traditional practice of looking down at the clumsy newbie, and say 'good job keep it up' patronizing attitude, followed with the traditional 'pat in the back' and the -come in a few years and i'll see what i can do for you, lost soul- look.

But this stubborn, (approriate explative), Joel keeps coming back just to ashame them , so some of them - the leaders i suppose- decide to go against the "open for every medium" rules and kick our friends butt, and the situation stays as is.
I really would 've liked that some of the ones that go both ways stand up for him and tell those dinos a few "get real" words , but FAT CHANCE, it won't happen.

That really would've made the difference at least for Joel. Just knowing that not all the people agreed on the partial decision of these pseudo gentlemen, just to leave a precedent !!
This is really the topic and not all the going around the bushes i've seen so far, while waiting for someone to stay focused on the original cause for this looong talk.

I'm not angry nor mad, just setting the record straight after waiting for the real point making its appearance,now hopeless-
.. I rest my case- and proceed on to lighting a fat one -- Puff!! Puff!!, cough !! ahehmm ! now that's better ... oh yeah!!

:music: as i was walking down the street one day.... :music:

REDRAGS !! :cool: :D

ExpressMark
04-20-2004, 12:48 AM
UH... I think I will go paint LOL

This thread is taking a turn I dont want to get into :)

Later dudes

ExpressMark
MBStudios

captan
04-20-2004, 06:58 AM
I'm not going to pretend that I've read all the posts in this thread, so I'm just going to say what I think about the problem JCoop mentioned in the top post and leave it at that:

who cares what they say or think?

that is all.

dcorc
04-20-2004, 08:43 AM
I was just over in the project section of WC! and was a bit put off by Project hosts that insist that no digital is allowed. Their was one in particular who started a painting project and eventually allowed glass works, yet no digital... as if we are the ugly ducklings of the art world.

I can understand a project host wanting to be specific about a certain discipline... I get that. But, the tone was like... we'll accept anything, absolutely anything, but digital!

Joel - I sent you a PM about this - but haven't received a response yet.

WHICH project(s) are you commenting on (please send me a PM if you don't want to disparage hosts publically)

I had an (admittedly quick) look at the projects list and couldn't find anything banning digital as such - I noted several specifically banning digital manipulation and banning photography, because the project's emphasis is on painting - for example a recent one on "Stormy seas over the ocean" (presumably a digital painting there would be acceptable - if not, I for one would certainly like to know why not).

However, I don't see a painting project banning photographic/photomanipulated entries (digital or analogue) as any more cause to be offended than a photography project banning entry of oil paintings.

Dave

baquitania
04-20-2004, 11:53 AM
Jet - que onda mano?

Sorry my friend, I had to edit yer post above, don't want you getting written up for something this avoidable. I understand your outrage... but let's keep it together and be "creative" and less obvious :D

And ofcourse you know I agree with you on all of this... it's hilarious to think one person can define another's art or try to devalidate it. Art Critics are on the level beneath lawyers in hell as far as I'm concerned...

B:evil:bby

grahamrj
04-21-2004, 12:04 PM
I had an (admittedly quick) look at the projects list and couldn't find anything banning digital as such - I noted several specifically banning digital manipulation and banning photography, because the project's emphasis is on painting - for example a recent one on "Stormy seas over the ocean" (presumably a digital painting there would be acceptable - if not, I for one would certainly like to know why not).

Since I like painting stormy seas (digitally and otherwise) I asked the project leader if "digital manipulation" excludes digital paintings using no photography. He's just replied to say: sorry yes it does.

Graham

GreyWolf
04-21-2004, 12:38 PM
Just to put in my two cents worth, I also still do graphite sketch, scratch board and I am getting ready to start painting again by hand. Although I am becoming quite HOOKED on digital "painting". I am still just learning that, so I am curious as to how something like that would be judged? You have your "masters", "advanced" and "beginners" in hand painting, would it be the same in a digital painting project? I would be put off to post one of mine if I saw the wonderful digital painting projects of people like Jet, being that I would consider mine not good enough to be posted.... :(

I would also like to note, that in the drawing and sketching forum, and the animal and wildlife forum, they welcome digital artists in their weekly projects in their forums. I posted one in the animal and wildlife forum in a project, and was amazed how many people didn't even KNOW you could do something like that on a computer.

Adding a digital project to that forum, would help get the word out about what kind of work we do, and would bring more curiosity seekers to this forum to look around...

:D

kptad2
04-21-2004, 01:00 PM
while it's very true that I cannot create such reality as well with traditional mediums, (although some can) digital will never take the place of them. Unless you are a traditional artist, good or bad, it's hard to understand what the traditional artist is thinking/feeling when they reject digital art. I have painted some digital paintings that, depending on whose looking, LOL, are pretty darn good but I have yet to paint one that gives me the same sense of acompishment personally that my oil paintings do!

i have to agree with ya there.. i like digital a whole lot but it will never take the place of me using my hands and getting all in the mix of things..

i am also on ..
i see a few suggestions on landscapes.. and Jcoop suggesested that there be a twist to it .. well i was thinking if landscapes are chosen..then make it a theme of some kind..like pixies woodland creatures(fantasy that is
or what the person(s) visualize being in there particular scene .. its just a suggestion :clap: :clap: :D
but im a could always use more ideas for digi format ..kim

wilderness
04-21-2004, 01:45 PM
I have not read every post in this thread, but you know what the base note reminds me of? When photography was relatively new, did traditional artists consider it an artform? I don't think most artists in the late 1800s did. I mean, look how "easy" it is to take a picture! And it just mirrors reality. Yet after more than 100 years photography is now seen as a distinct artform.

Well digital art allows you to do things not possible with traditional media, so in that respect I think it could be in its own category. But digital art is a chameleon which can emulate traditional media (and in that respect is different from photography). So I also feel left out when someone says digital art is not allowed here.

wild

dcorc
04-21-2004, 04:25 PM
Since I like painting stormy seas (digitally and otherwise) I asked the project leader if "digital manipulation" excludes digital paintings using no photography. He's just replied to say: sorry yes it does.

Graham

I have just posted the same question into the project discussion thread.

Dave

Jet
04-21-2004, 06:41 PM
Jet - que onda mano?

Sorry my friend, I had to edit yer post above, don't want you getting written up for something this avoidable. I understand your outrage... but let's keep it together and be "creative" and less obvious :D

And ofcourse you know I agree with you on all of this... it's hilarious to think one person can define another's art or try to devalidate it. Art Critics are on the level beneath lawyers in hell as far as I'm concerned...
B:evil:bby

Bobby,
SORRY for that mishap !!-No excuses-... Honestly Sorry !!. :o ..... and thanks!-
..
I received a PM from a member/friend suggesting that i was "insulting everyone
who's non-digital by describing them as "dinos"."

That's funny because i don't say it as an insult- ( i know better ones)
- It all started a few months back, when, in a group of good friends there was division in art forms, so we started calling those traditional artists,- who didn't want to try digital for anything in the world-, "Dinostubborns" and they, in return, called the ones who didn't try the traditional ways at all (me included), by the name of "Cyberlazies", and no offense was taken from any side.
Nowadays, although some of them are not Dinostubborns, and some of us are not Cyberlazies anymore; the Dinostubborns , the Cyberlazies and all those in-between remain as good friends as ever.

...... 'Dino' an insult?..:confused: ....then, 'Flintstone' must be ....oh, no ! ............ outrageous !!

Thanks god the sun is down,what a Peter day i've had, being in this Wilma situation, but, i love these Flintstones members of WC, anyway !!http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

:cool:

baquitania
04-21-2004, 06:55 PM
np Jet... i actually like the term dinos... the dinosaurs were the greatest creatures ever made in my opinion... they should be proud to be referred to as those majestic, viscious lizards... okay i'm kidding... cyberlazies is pretty funny...

how do i put this as PC as possible, if you don't like the terminology, stay out of my photoshop... okay may be that was not as PC as possible...

my apologies to all those traditionalists who are offend by these words... let me be the first to offer a pixelated olive branch... oh wait, without an HTML translator I may be starting a war... oh well, cest le guerre!

What are we really talking about anyway... people who find computers too much to handle or unattractive? Or people who find them invaluable and the door to the future? (yipes that was one sided) I better stop while I still have a job....

Bobby

dcorc
04-21-2004, 07:30 PM
Personally, I'm a bit bothered by this whole "traditionalists" vs "cybers" thing - they are ALL just ways/tools for thought-transference really, to get the images inside my head into your head - or vice versa, and should be recognised as such.

Dave

dcorc
04-21-2004, 09:40 PM
Joel, Jet, and all

have a look here:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2245854&postcount=104

I think this clarifies things? Comments please?

Dave

baquitania
04-22-2004, 02:21 AM
OK, now I wanna join that just to prove it can be done.

On an aside, I do think it is possible to have the same satisfaction with a digital piece as with a traditional medium. It depends on how long you worked on it, how long did you research it, whether the subject matter is personal to you, and certainly how long you've been doing digital art as well as how comfortable you are with it...

It's like any other medium, if my first watercolor sucks, and my last one after 10 yrs doesn't, naturally one will give me satisfaction... same goes for the first time I clicked the mouse to draw, and the last time I made my wacom tablet squeal like a pig!... okay bad metaphor... but you get what I mean...

Bobby

Jet
04-22-2004, 05:13 AM
Dave, i've seen that legend before, and i can understand the photomanipulation thing because it has an unfair advantage over an image done from scratch, for obvious reasons.

At the same time, they probably won't accept photo-paintovers or photo-sampled, as most painters take that as a quasi-photo manip.

Which leaves us with 'photo-reference', which is a very common practice between "live" and "virtual" artists, so most likely it must be permitted, unless it's an 'out in the open' or from your 'inner imagery' kind of project.

Now, how would any of the participants qualify this work, (made from a photo reference, not manip, paintover or sampled), if someone would come with a result like this one -> http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183504.

Would you say, that by their standards this would be a valid entry ?
Knowing beforehand the confusion this piece would bring.

Our new member Mark, -who has proved to be a great artist-, claims he can easily spot a fake digital piece, -meaning a photomanip or a paintover-...
Would this piece pass his test or not... ?
Would people with less experience in digital, be able to assimilate this art piece without any doubt in their minds that there's an unfair advantage somewhere ?
In the end what would prevail ? the fear or the reason ?
Would it be a better bet in the future, to ban digital works from entering the projects because most of the participants vote against digital inclusion in their projects ?

.........just thinking ahead in time i guess; But now, i put myself in their shoes, and truly understand if they can't accept the inclusion of digital works.
I wouldn't like to 'compete' or be compared my 'live' piece against one 'digital' piece of this caliber, and just imagine 10 or 20 more of the same. no way !!.. :(

...You made your point alright !! --a bow--
:cool:

grahamrj
04-22-2004, 06:25 AM
Joel, Jet, and all

have a look here:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2245854&postcount=104

I think this clarifies things? Comments please?

Dave

I think Alan Cross (the project leader) has changed his mind! I asked him this question (by email):

"I am new to WC. Could you clarify whether digital paintings (done from scratch with no photographs) are acceptable in this project?"

and he replied (yesterday):

"Sorry for this project it was put no digi work...."

See you in the stormy sea project, Dave! :)

Graham

fugitive
04-22-2004, 03:47 PM
Personally, I'm a bit bothered by this whole "traditionalists" vs "cybers" thing - they are ALL just ways/tools for thought-transference really, to get the images inside my head into your head - or vice versa, and should be recognised as such.

DaveThat's very good, Dave. Now, if you could expound upon it, and address those with a numb n_ts, mentality. There are literally, crowds of them, all around us, on WC, other groups, the world in general.
greg

ExpressMark
04-22-2004, 05:21 PM
Im the new artist Jet is reffering to. However Im really not new I have been on the forum for around 2 years. But I havent been active for a while.
Anyway, I was asked if that picture would pass the grade... not sure what grade its supposed to pass. If you mean my grade!

None the less I do want to mention something again, I am not against in any way Photomanipulation, Photo Paint over, Photo Trace, or any other digital manipulation via filters or such like.

Ok that being said, let me say again also, my problem with these methods, does not stem from the method but its misuse.
For instance, when individuals use this to make others beleive they did by free hand traditional methods what they in fact did by filters, scripts, and such like.

I know individuals that would use these methods of deception( which is what they are when they are used wrongly), but they would deceive traditional Artist then I have found them giving advice on traditional methods of which they(these particular individuals) know nothing about.

As far as a project not wanting digital, I am against that, however, I can see restrictions. For instance.
Lets say a project was this.
1. A Photo is supplied, and every Artist is to attempt to get the best likeness.
Well now Photomanipulation would be unfair in that application.
SO I am not against some restriction based on a per project application.

But, to say Digital is wrong all the way across the board... that doesnt seem fair.


Well, I think again I have said enough, and again maybe to much LOL

ExpressMark
MBStudios

dcorc
04-22-2004, 05:35 PM
Greg - There are forums here where one can post digital stuff and there's no doubt that it's welcome - have you joined in any of the WDE's yet? I've posted quick ("real") oil paintings, digital paintings, oil/digital hybrids and photomanips on WDEs.

Post your work in portraiture, (or still life, landscape etc as appropriate) - the only problems that a lot of "traditional" people have are that they don't know what can be done digitally - and are thus confused.

There's an element of needing to be up-front about what one is doing as a digital artist - there is (frankly, I'll be blunt, rightly, in my opinion) some suspicion of digital art by traditionalists - look at it this way - if I produce an oil painting, there is no doubt that a certain (whether that be good, bad, or indifferent :p ) level of painting skill is involved, and I have a physical object to show for it that cannot have been made photographically. One can use little "helpers" such as projecting the image onto the canvas to trace over it, but there's a point at which one ends up unavoidably having to mix paint to specific colours and physically apply it to the correct area of the surface.

The "danger" of digital practice is that those grey areas between the processes which mimic photographic darkroom practice and those which mimic painting are much more extensive, and many traditionalists are unsure of what they've "got" with a particular digital work, in a way that is not so for traditional media (sorry, very convoluted sentence there! :D )

(Personally, I'm just as happy producing digital as I am traditional oils - I'm collaborating with a group of no/low-budget filmmakers to do some effects work on a project currently - and I'm waiting for other stuff to be shot in order to do my effects contributions - some of this will be CG animation, some will be digital painting work, and some may be traditional matte paintings in oils, I haven't quite decided yet - all to be composited with live-action - but while I'm waiting, I'm concentrating on my oils work at the moment).

The best ways to spread the word are, I would suggest, firstly, to get more involved in other forums as I've suggested above - doing some detailed Work In Progress threads to show doubters that you are producing these works entirely by painting - and secondly, why not have a go at some traditional techniques and show you can paint to the same standard in those? (painting well is about being able to draw, and to accurately choose colour and value - anyone who can paint photorealistically in digital should be able to paint at similar standard in oils or acrylics after a very short period of getting used to how physical paint handles!)

Dave

fugitive
04-22-2004, 06:08 PM
I have and do all that Dave. It's in my posts here, look at how much I already have on Portrait, and Figure. Someone may have made a negative comment, aimed at me, and in my case, I painted traditionally from age 5 till fifty something, so I do know about both.

baquitania
04-22-2004, 06:50 PM
why not have a go at some traditional techniques and show you can paint to the same standard in those? (painting well is about being able to draw, and to accurately choose colour and value - anyone who can paint photorealistically in digital should be able to paint at similar standard in oils or acrylics after a very short period of getting used to how physical paint handles!) Dave

Dave:

Please don't take this as an attack, just that you bring up this point... and frankly it's ludicrous! This is really what I feel is at the heart of the prejudice against digital artists. They see us using this medium, there is no undeniable fact that others in the industry do it everyday ona fantastical level... And here we are the beginners, who have used traditional methods, but are not enamored of this striking new set of tools... We like using them, we love using them... yet the prejudice says, "well if you can do it that well on a monitor why not put in on canvas?"

Why? Why do we have to prove anything? Yes if there was a monitary or word of honor situation... but I am sick of my honor being questioned by the mere mention of the word "digital"... And I have the training to do it however I feel like... it's my choice, I would never tell a sculptor hey why don't you try that in colored pencil? Ludicrous!

Anyway I am off the soapbox, and I am not aiming at you... just the notion that a digital artist ever has to revert back to please anyone else but themselves...

B:mad:bby

dcorc
04-22-2004, 07:03 PM
Dave:

Please don't take this as an attack, just that you bring up this point... and frankly it's ludicrous! This is really what I feel is at the heart of the prejudice against digital artists. They see us using this medium, there is no undeniable fact that others in the industry do it everyday ona fantastical level... And here we are the beginners, who have used traditional methods, but are not enamored of this striking new set of tools... We like using them, we love using them... yet the prejudice says, "well if you can do it that well on a monitor why not put in on canvas?"

Why? Why do we have to prove anything? Yes if there was a monitary or word of honor situation... but I am sick of my honor being questioned by the mere mention of the word "digital"... And I have the training to do it however I feel like... it's my choice, I would never tell a sculptor hey why don't you try that in colored pencil? Ludicrous!

Anyway I am off the soapbox, and I am not aiming at you... just the notion that a digital artist ever has to revert back to please anyone else but themselves...

B:mad:bby

I don't feel attacked, and neither should you - I take your point - I am a great believer in the maxim "first to thine own self be true" - I'm merely pointing out that the reality of the situation is that digital people can unequivocally squash criticism by demonstrating a similar level of achievement in a traditional medium.

Actually there's another means by which they/we can do so - Painter and OpenCanvas, for example, both allow the complete recording and playback of the painting process.

One doesn't have to prove oneself, but if anybody getting criticised wants to, the technology is there to prove naysayers wrong once and for all.

Dave

joeymagpie
04-23-2004, 12:12 PM
Hello to all of you.

I am rather new to WC, and this is my first visit to the Digital Art Forum. Maybe this is the right place for me to ask a few questions.

I dabble a bit with watercolors, I always work small, usually nothing larger than 8 x 10, and actually, the majority of what I do is smaller than that. For the most part, it is therapy for me.

I then enjoy scanning them, and often, but not always, I use Adobe filters to enhance them....sharpen, smart blur......etc.

I suppose my question is, if I were ever to sell these as prints, how do I "label" them? Digital reprints of original watercolors?

Also.......I have a whole lot of fun scanning some of my paint doodles and then just going to town in Adobe manipulating and playing around with all the tools. Some of them turn out pretty cool.

Maybe I will post here a few of the things I have done with some of my watercolors......and if any of you have the time to give me any feedback, I would be most appreciative.

Jet
04-23-2004, 01:15 PM
Great stuff..
I like it very much.

As you're doing them from scratch is your creation, but when you take the picture and bring them into PS then 'technically' you're manipulating a Photo.

My suggestion is that you learn to do them in PS or in Painter and avoid alll the labeling troubles.

I do a lot of Photo-Art, which starts as a multiple photo manipulation with many tweaks and filterings until it becomes a piece of art that has a vague resemblance to the original photo with more features of an art piece in it.

I name them photo art and some detractors here in my town call them 'despectively' photo manips, the good thing is that clients don't care for a name, they want quality results and they gladly pay for my digital transformations of their photos

We here -generally- accept all digital work as 'good', what members don't like is lying about the real process and saying that some picture is done from scratch, and later, a raw paintover is found. That is basically the problem .
:mad:
So if you say that you do them by hand, and then you take the picture, is cool.just don't say you did them in PS just for showing off, it's not worth it.

I still don't know why -or what for- somebody would lie for a thing like a painting, but there is something about lying that makes these people feel better about themselves, beats me ! it must be some psychological thing i am not able to comprehend yet. :confused:
Anyway this is just about the only drawback around here so far. Welcome to the forum , keep posting.

** if You need personal help, PM me or the guys that will offer to do so rightaway, any general help issues just ask in that particular thread and somebody will assist you. Lots of helpful people around here.
Ah! also, we ask a lot of questions when we see something we like, or have doubt about methods and the like....:cool: .

Regards

Chiers
04-23-2004, 03:10 PM
One doesn't have to prove oneself, but if anybody getting criticised wants to, the technology is there to prove naysayers wrong once and for all.

Right Dave. It is too bad that is even neccessary but thanks to those who abuse the digital medium there is a lot of doubt about it. Bad choice of words there I know it isn't neccessary. But the fact is that there are so many who fake digital painting that it is hard for those who don't do it to understand that some of it actually is done in much the same manner as traditional painting. Most of the ones you see are pretty obvious to those of us who do paint but there are some fakes that are very hard to tell.

Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me too. It dumbfounds me. I frankly could take no pleasure in getting any kind of cudos for a picture I claimed to paint but really didn't. I will never understand this kind of mentality. I think it would take a pretty desparate person.



On an aside, I do think it is possible to have the same satisfaction with a digital piece as with a traditional medium. It depends on how long you worked on it, how long did you research it, whether the subject matter is personal to you, and certainly how long you've been doing digital art as well as how comfortable you are with it...

I didn't mean I don't get satisfaction from my digital work. I certainly do! But still, it is different than the feeling I get from painting in oils or any other traditional mediums. And having recently started getting back into them after quite a long break I have realized just how different. Of course, this is my own experience I speak of but I do suspect it may be the same for some others also.

I name them photo art and some detractors here in my town call them 'despectively' photo manips, the good thing is that clients don't care for a name, they want quality results and they gladly pay for my digital transformations of their photos

I know many people won't care one way or the other Jet as long as they are happy with the final result. And you do your manips very well! There is a place for the kind of art you do without a doubt.

However I do think it's a big mistake to think that no one would care! It's kind of like diamonds versus cubic zirconias. They are both beautiful and unless you can afford the very best the fakes are often more beautiful. However, I would be extremely upset to find I had paid a diamond price for a zirconia!! And that's putting it mildly. On the other hand, I will, and have willingly purchased zirconias because I love sparkle. But if it wasn't for the money thing....I'd choose a diamond every time!

And having said all that, I know this is a topic that will be disscussed over and over and over without being resolved for some time to come. :D

Jet
04-23-2004, 05:05 PM
I know many people won't care one way or the other Jet as long as they are happy with the final result. And you do your manips very well! There is a place for the kind of art you do without a doubt.

However I do think it's a big mistake to think that no one would care! It's kind of like diamonds versus cubic zirconias. They are both beautiful and unless you can afford the very best the fakes are often more beautiful. However, I would be extremely upset to find I had paid a diamond price for a zirconia!! And that's putting it mildly. On the other hand, I will, and have willingly purchased zirconias because I love sparkle. But if it wasn't for the money thing....I'd choose a diamond every time!

And having said all that, I know this is a topic that will be disscussed over and over and over without being resolved for some time to come. :D

Chiers.- please rewind a little and i 'm referring only to photomanip and photo art. and people around me who already know what it is by the detailed explanation of technique and procedure that comes with every piece.

Same as in traditional arts, a painting is not a sketch anymore; it probably was at one time... but if you polish the sketch long and hard enough, at sometime it will be no longer a sketch and turn more into a painting.

*A photo manipulation is to photo-art , what sketch is to a traditional painting-

Neophytes and manipulators like to think everything is a photomanip, so their own photomanips get in the same cathegory as the more advanced art pieces.

In essence and as a beginning it was indeeed a manipulation, but as the craftsman invests time and effort, on the 40-80 procedures, then that photomanip is being refined and seasoned until it becomes a piece of Photo-Art.
Right then one can place the usual photo-manip besides the photo-art rendition and the difference will be more than evident.

Same as welding is not ironworking, although it's needed during the process, just like Sketch, and like photomanips.
A photo manip is what's usually referred to button pushing, and it's only the prep work for doing the more advanced artistic renditions, if proper skill , knowledge and care is put into it.

The cathegories according to degree of digital work spent on them is:
1.- Plain Photography- *
2.- Photo Retouch- all simple tweaks for makin a better photography
3.- Photo effects- the usual posterizations and hi level corrections
4.- Photo manipulations- more filtering, tweaking and collage and montage works
5.- Photo art rendition- the proper combination for a more artistic approach with a more balanced result toward a classy and elegant piece of art.
6.- Digital art-all the illustrations and free hand designs and drawing/painting combos

* this is a general classification

Regards

Chiers
04-23-2004, 08:14 PM
ROTF...Jet thanks for the explaination but I do know full well the difference between digital manipulations, and digital painting, both qualifiing as digital "art".
I made my above statement because several different times in this and other threads you have made the statement that your clients don't care how you achieve your results in a manner that could lead one to believe meaning painted, or manipulated. Perhaps that wasn't what you really meant but thats the way I understood it so there by , my statement. So, lol, I don't need to rewind, my statement still holds true. :D

Plain and simple...it all is what it is. Mine is no better than any other and visa versa.

digistyle
04-25-2004, 06:16 PM
I've seen the the "no digital allowed" sign on some of the projects in the past and will probably see more in the future. I understand if there is a specific reason for excluding a medium from a project or restricting a project to a certain medium. It does rankle a bit when all other mediums are allowed on a project and digital is excluded.

digistyle

JCoop
04-25-2004, 10:34 PM
Okay team... we're up to bat!!! Lets have fun!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/Projects/index.php?cmd=view_details&proj_id=679