PDA

View Full Version : Pastel Cloth and Createx Colors


Khadres
04-13-2004, 09:24 PM
Has anybody here tried what is known as "pastel cloth"? It comes in huge rolls and is primed for pastels. Apparently it is non-woven and has a random, fibrous texture.

If anyone's used it, how do you mount it and on what? Do you pastel on it just tacked to something and mount or stretch it later? Wondering if there would be a way of using it for pastels, but then coating it with something to make it waterproof, etc. so as to use it for table mats, etc. It sounds cool for underpaintings and such, but mannnnnnnnn....five yards of the stuff seems like a LOT.

Also would like to know if Createx pure pigments are transparent or opaque? Different places seem to have Createx, but some is transparent, some is opaque and except for that mentioned on Dakota, I'm not sure any of it is useful for the way Kitty uses it.

Kitty Wallis
04-13-2004, 09:51 PM
Also would like to know if Createx pure pigments are transparent or opaque? Different places seem to have Createx, but some is transparent, some is opaque and except for that mentioned on Dakota, I'm not sure any of it is useful for the way Kitty uses it.

Createx makes a lot of products. Paint, fabric dye, etc. The stuff I use is called Createx Pure Pigments. (Sorry if I'm repeating what you already know, I have seen this kind of confusion in my classes, so I just want to be clear.) It is made from the pure pigment so each color will have it's own attributes. Transparent pigments, such as the Quiacridones, will have a transparent quality, etc. I would happily use any of the pigment colors to underpaint pastels.

Khadres
04-13-2004, 10:05 PM
Cool...but I guess then Dakota is the only place that has the real thing. Nice to know for sure! I'm getting used to having to order stuff like the pioneers did from the Sears, Roebuck catalog.... Seems like nobody local every carries anything we need these days. Have been waiting a month for my paper trays, too. I just need to learn patience, I suppose! :rolleyes: Thanks!

Deborah Secor
04-13-2004, 10:17 PM
Many years ago--like 15 or so--I used pastel cloth. I stretched it over a piece of masonite and glued it on the back. It was a pain to stretch and didn't give me results that I particularly cared for and since someone had given me that piece (not 5 yards!) I ended up chucking it. I'm sure someone else will have had more extensive experience than I and can tell you more. It was way too coarse for me in those days--and may have considerably changed by now, for all I really know...

Deborah

Dyin
04-13-2004, 10:30 PM
Look under airbrush supplies in any catalog...they carry the regular Createx AB colors and usually the Pure Pigment so artists can make their own colors with mediums.

Khadres
04-13-2004, 11:57 PM
Look under airbrush supplies in any catalog...they carry the regular Createx AB colors and usually the Pure Pigment so artists can make their own colors with mediums.

Well, I noticed Hobby Lobby has the AB colors, both transparent and opaque, but I don't know if that would mean they DON'T work like those Kitty mentioned. Might get a couple colors and just try 'em out...

Khadres
04-14-2004, 12:05 AM
Thanks for the review of the pastel cloth, Dee...it sounded a bit odd to me, and at such vast sizes, too, but one never knows; it could've turned out to be the best thing since sliced beans. Still, at $95 a roll, it's not like I'd have been trying it soon anyway! The very idea of having to mount or stretch the stuff would likely put me off anyway. One reason I don't care for watercolor, actually...can't afford the papers that don't need stretching and hate the whole taping and drying routine for the lighter stuff.

It's just nice to know what's out there...now if I could just get someone to explain to me what the heck an "altered book" is, I'd have it made! :D

Dyin
04-14-2004, 12:10 AM
Sooz, I couldn't find them, but you don't want just Createx airbrush acrylic the line is called Pure Pigments. Here's a link to Dick Blick and the Pure Pigments...

http://www.dickblick.com/zz029/54/products.asp?param=0&ig_id=4140

Kitty Wallis
04-14-2004, 01:21 AM
Sooz, Maybe this is the confusion.

The Createx 'Pure Pigments' line is a finely ground dispersion preparation of each pigment, *sold in liquid form* Very Strong. Like a very strong liquid watercolor, with no gum arabic. It is Not dry pigment.

They designed the product to go with their acrylic gel, for artists to make your own acrylic paints. I use it straight with a little water to avoid the addition of paint body, (the glue/goo used in paint to hold the pigment on the surface and film over it to protect the pigment from rubbing off)

Paint body fills the grit of my paper reducing it's effectivness. Air Brush colors are pretty good, since the paint body in them is so light and they dry matte. But the Pure Pigments are even better.

Kitty Wallis
04-14-2004, 01:26 AM
About 25 years ago, I was poking aroung the storeroom basement of a large art supply store and found an old set of primed canvas samples. There was a pastel cloth sample on the chain and it was Mustard Yellow. I assume it had discolored over time and never wanted to use pastel cloth after that. It was the old style woven canvas with a sand textured coating.

Khadres
04-14-2004, 01:27 AM
Paint body fills the grit of my paper reducing it's effectivness. Air Brush colors are pretty good, since the paint body in them is so light and they dry matte. But the Pure Pigments are even better.

Oh, I knew they weren't dry pigments, but thought maybe the AB stuff would have too much "body". Guess I could try it, it's not very expensive and if I like underpainting, then I could order the Dakota colors. And yes, I wouldn't want anything glossy at all...at least I would think not.

Thanks for the clarification, tho. Can be a trifle confusing when there are so many options on offer sometimes.

jackiesimmonds
04-14-2004, 02:43 AM
I musing here.....if the Pure Pigments are difficult to find, I wonder if any of these might work:
Dr PH Martin's Radiant Concentrated Watercolours would work I think. They are all completely transparent, like inks, and can be used with a brush, a pen, or an airbrush.

Inks - Winsor & Newton also make Calligraphy Ink; Jax make Shellac Ink; Pelikan make a drawing ink.

Lefranc & Bourgeois make Coloured Drawing Ink in 9 vivid shades, all colours are transparent, lightfast, and waterproof, perfectfor layering.

FW Acrylic Artists Ink by Daler Rowney is "waterproof" so no lifting when you layer colours, and highly pigmented; some of the colours state on the bottle that they are transparent. It is made by Daler Rowney. I have described this product to Kitty, and we think it might be much the same as the Createx.

A further option for underpainting, which removes any problem with water/stretching, is to use marker pens. Edding markers can even be refilled ... they are made with water-based pigmented ink, and Edding offer a refill bottle.

It can be expensive, loading up with new products in the hope that they will provide new impetus to your work. Why not try with whatever you have at home right now. Watercolour, gouache - they may fill the tooth of the paper somewhat if used very thickly, but gouache, in particular, has a nice chalky finish which accepts the pastel well. I don't recommend acrylics (tho other people do use them) because they sometimes dry with a plasticky surface which I have some concerns about, in terms of loading pastel on top, I feel this is not good working practice.
If you discover you like the whole process of underpainting , then it will be worth spending a bit on some additional supplies to see if you like them any better.

Dark_Shades
04-14-2004, 06:05 AM
I received a Pastel Cloth as one of the papers to try out in the sample pack from Dakota..... couldnt get on with it, didnt know how to use it, didnt like what little I achieved....... and threw it in the bin :) ........ the latter was the most rewarding affect lol

Khadres
04-14-2004, 08:05 AM
I received a Pastel Cloth as one of the papers to try out in the sample pack from Dakota..... couldnt get on with it, didnt know how to use it, didnt like what little I achieved....... and threw it in the bin :) ........ the latter was the most rewarding affect lol

I think you're not alone in your assessment. Good thing it's too expensive, as sold, for many to get snagged into buying it!

Jackie, I think you're right...I have tons of fine water colors, etc. and might just as well use them. They're just gonna be a bit more work, diluting them, etc. But I might as well give 'em a go, since I don't do much watercolor otherwise and I hate to waste anything. I also have some tube and some cake type gouche, too.

I don't have to worry about the acrylics...those are the only art supplies I had that DID go to waste in that they sat around so long, they all got hardening of the arteries and had to be tossed. Never liked 'em anyway...dried TOO fast for painting with in this climate.

Thanks for the other options to Createx, tho...I've seen the Dr. PH's around for years...Might try those sometime.

jackiesimmonds
04-14-2004, 05:20 PM
Thanks for the other options to Createx, tho...I've seen the Dr. PH's around for years...Might try those sometime.

Know nothing about the pastel cloth, but I can tell you that the FW Inks,and the Dr Martens, work great on Wallis paper. I got mine just the other day, and have started a new painting, by underpainting on it. Although Kitty warns that the paper does need to be restretched if you get it wet, I didn't find this; it took the pigments really well, and unlike the ERSTA, there was no ghastly smell at all! What a relief!

I rather regret not having ordered some Belgian Mist; although underpainting is fun, I also sometimes like just to have a simple, plain, subtle undercolour. Must try the Belgian Mist next.

Jackie

Dyin
04-14-2004, 05:32 PM
Jackie...I used to airbrush and really, really wanted to use the inks as they're more fluid that acrylic in an airbrush, but never did because of lightfast issues...I think that FW was just beginning to rate theirs as lightfast when I stopped airbrushing...anyways, am wondering how both are rated, since some of the underpainting will invariably show through and wouldn't want it to fade.

Kitty Wallis
04-14-2004, 05:54 PM
Jackie...I used to airbrush and really, really wanted to use the inks as they're more fluid that acrylic in an airbrush, but never did because of lightfast issues...I think that FW was just beginning to rate theirs as lightfast when I stopped airbrushing...anyways, am wondering how both are rated, since some of the underpainting will invariably show through and wouldn't want it to fade.

Good point. Createx are rated the same as the pigment they are made from is rated. I believe it's on the jars and in the info in the catalogs. The eight colors I use have the highest rating.

Dyin
04-14-2004, 06:04 PM
Thanks Kitty, I know the Createx ratings, they're the acrylic brand I use, but am sure it's helpful to know for people not familiar with it. I was wondering about the inks that Jackie is using though.... :)

Khadres
04-14-2004, 06:32 PM
I rather regret not having ordered some Belgian Mist; although underpainting is fun, I also sometimes like just to have a simple, plain, subtle undercolour. Must try the Belgian Mist next.
Jackie

The Belgian Mist is all I've used, so far, but I have a few sheets of white coming in to try. I love the color of the Mist...neutral and inviting at the same time. I would think one could even underpaint darker passages on the grey and still get the pre-compositional benefits. For me, it's the dark parts that are hardest to tackle...lights generally go down via pastel pretty easily.

So glad you're getting to try some of this paper...it's lovely!

jackiesimmonds
04-15-2004, 03:47 PM
I was wondering about the inks that Jackie is using though.... :)

I am not that much of a purist, to be frank........for me, an underpainting is just that - an UNDERpainting. It may have a certain impact on the pastel that goes down on top of it, but only in the most minimal of ways, I usually end up covering the underpainting so that hardly any of it shows. the tiny bit that might, even if it does fade slightly, I doubt would make much difference to the finished painting.

My main reason for using any kind of underpainting, right now (tho this may change, I try out new techniques all the time) is to kill off the white of the paper, because even the tiniest bits of white showing, annoy me because they look like speckles.

Asking the manufacturer about the lightfastness of their product would be a good thing to do, if it bothers you.

J