Charred animal bones in my paint?!

[PthaloBlueGirl]

All right, this is getting on my nerves.
I am trying to live a quiet, cruelty free, blameless-and quite boring actually-, life. I do not want to be a part of cruelty to other life forms. I am a strict veggie and yadayadayada

Now I read the label on my Ivory Black Liquitex tube and it says:
"Pigment: Amorphous Carbon Produced by Charring Animal Bones (PBk 9)."

A year or so ago I'd gotten a different brand, don't recall brand now, that said basicly the same thing and it was Pthalo Blue so I got another brand that just said PB15 or whatever. I thought all paints today were basicly chemical, artificial and only those persons with a lot of time on their hands would grind their own rocks and junk for pigment.

So, are all paints based on charred animal bones? Why do some brands list that and some do not? Are there brands I can stay away from?

I know that they probably get all the bones they want from slaughter houses and that there probably is no abuses going on but wherever there is money to be made and humans are involved there is abuse somewhere. And the thought of slaughter house bone use is gross too. Poor animals!!

So, what is up with the charred bones? Anyone know??

:confused: :mad: :(

[PthaloBlueGirl]

Here is the email response from Liquitex:
>>>>>>>>
"Liquitex Response

Barbara:

No animal bones are used in the processing of artists acrylic paint.

The pigment - Ivory Black - is a traditional artist color along with Carbon
Black, dating back to the Roman times.
It was originally made from charred elephant ivory, which is how it got the
name.

Liquitex manufactures paint, mediums, varnishes and additives. Liquitex does
not manufacture any pigments. Artist paint manufacturers use multiple
sources for raw materials including pigments. Our pigments are obtained from
many suppliers in the UK and Europe. For organic pigments, such as the one
used in Ivory Black, it is most likely purchased from a dye & pigment
division of a pharmaceutical company.

As Ivory Black from any paint company will contained this pigment, you may
want to use Mars Black instead, although it has very different properties.

Regards -

---------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Anderson / Liquitex Technical & Fine Art Support

support@liquitex.com"
>>>>>>>>

So basically this means that if the ingredients for PBk9 Amorphous Carbon was obtained from a pharmacutical company as suggested in the letter that does mean some abuse. Not from the Liquitex company, but the pharmacutical company who probably has an on site cremation facility for all their test animals.

This is making me ill. I love phtalo blue and ivory black because to me they have a spiritual depth, a beauty that is somehow unreal. Pblue makes the best nebulas!! Now I guess I know where that spirit comes from.

I think it was from a Grumbacher site that I got a list of paints containing this 'pigment' I think I am right in that it is named PBk9 and I'll have to get some other black.

Anyone know a phtaloblue not made with this PBk9?

I might have to stop painting.

I wish I was never born.

[PthaloBlueGirl]

The .pdf information on paints containing PBk9 is here:
www.grumbacherart.com/sanford/consumer/ grumbacher/pdfs/AcademyAcrylic_TS.pdf

It is only a two pager and it doesn't list all colors on the market but what it does list I have some of.

Burnt sienna, and umber
raw umber
cerulean blue hue
payne's grey
dioxazine purple
grumbacher red
hookers green
thalo blue
thalo green
thalo yellow green
ultramarine blue- which I thought was made from crushed lapis lazuli gem stones

I think this was a list of just their colors.

If PBk9 is the standard name for this bone based pigment then I can avoid it in the future by reading labels.

I just might have to start crushing my own rocks and stuff for pigments.

Are oil paints the same?? Can I just switch to oils?

[PthaloBlueGirl]

I've been doing a lot of ingredients list reading. Still have Liquitex's list to print out and look at but it looks like Grumbacher has a wierd fetish for bone black pigment because it is in a lot of their colors including their 'thalo' blue. Liquitex does not. Niether does Rembrandt or Winsor and Newton. So my favorite color is 'safe' to continue to use. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

PBk6 is a carbon black that is from charred petroleum. Commonly known as lamp black. That might be a good replacement for Ivory. Mars Black is also a really nice black, very warm and almost chocolatey in a way. God, I hope I don't have to stop eating chocolate for some reason. :rolleyes:

http://www.handprint.com has a watercolor color section that is a wealth of information on pigments and what they are. Love it!

The only thing now is how do they test these paints for safety? I have discovered brands that have no bone black pigment in them but now I am fearful of discovering animal testing in the safety label part. :rolleyes: :confused:

I wish life wasn't so hard. I'm not trying to whine or anything but isn't anything safe? I'm always discovering or afraid of discovering something unethical, or that I think is unethical to the way I want to live my life, and having to stop doing so much.

:)

[Tony11214]

I looked up a few non animal type black pigments for you.

PBk 6 Lamp Black; its soot from bruning mineral oils.

PBk 8 Vine Black; its burnt wood/vines.

PBk 11 Mars Black; its black rust.

I hope this helps :)

[Eugene Veszely]

There are so many puns for this ...but I will not offend anyone .... :)


I never knew about bone being in plack paint...I hope you find something you are comfortable with :)

[Thom Byrd]

"So, what is up with the charred bones? Anyone know??"blue girl


Some of the first painting ever done (in the caves of France and Spain) ,are composed of and with charred bone and the rendered fat from these dead animals :eek: *and they are still there*Part of the reason was it is what they had and part of the reason "I and others believe " is that there art was more than decoration*It was ritual and by using the sum of the animals parts they could recreate the whole back in the real world :cool:

[PthaloBlueGirl]

Thanks for the color suggestions. I'll try a few tubes. There is a new art store I just discovered and they might have it or the craft store might. If not there are a few other places to try in town.

:)

[Keith Russell]

When you breathe, you kill microscopic organisms in the air. The white blood cells in your body kill invading organisms, viruses, and living disease-spreading cells.

The plants you eat obtain nutrients from decayed animal matter in the soil, animals that were more than likely killed by other animals.

Sharks, bears, tigers, dogs, spiders, birds--and countless other animal species--feed off of one another; kill, to survive.

Life requires life.

To think that this is not so, is self-delusion...evasion; irrational.

K

[PthaloBlueGirl]

To not care is just plain wrong.

And I don't need a lesson in the cycle of life I am aware of it. I just don't think certain things are right like torturing animals for the benifit of science, yadayadayada.

As for paint, I simply do not want to paint with dead animals. Probly got that in mascara and junk. Glad I don't wear make up.

Life is one big life-eating, meaningless machine. I realize that.

[Keith Russell]

To not care is just plain wrong.

What do you mean by--how do you define--'care'?

And I don't need a lesson in the cycle of life I am aware of it. I just don't think certain things are right like torturing animals for the benifit of science, yadayadayada.

I would agree that it is wrong to kill animals, to obtain their bones solely to harvest their bones to make paint, but I see nothing wrong with harvesting the bones of animals that were slaughtered for food. Waste not...

As for paint, I simply do not want to paint with dead animals. Probly got that in mascara and junk. Glad I don't wear make up.

I thought about this yesterday, and perhaps this is the direction I should have taken with my response, in the first place. Why are you using black, anyway?

Life is one big life-eating, meaningless machine. I realize that.

'Life' is actually an ongoing, completely interwoven cycle of life and death.

But, 'meaningless'?

Not hardly...as artists, we (at least) can provide meaning...

K

[Alan Cross]

Why not just give up black....I have never used it I mix all my darks with Ulta blue and Burnt s.
Alan :)

[Keith Russell]

Alan, I agree--

--but I beat you to it.

Originally posted by me on 1/17:
I thought about this yesterday, and perhaps this is the direction I should have taken with my response, in the first place. Why are you using black, anyway?

LOL...

K

[Alan Cross]

Alan, I agree--

--but I beat you to it.

Originally posted by me on 1/17:


LOL...

K

LOL not a problem....
Alan

[kbilltv]

Harkening back to the original point, that the source was a pharmaceutical company: It's one thing to compare natural survival to bone fodder, but another thing altogether when a pharmaceutical company is in question. There may be a layer of survival there, but more likely there may be the result of cosmetic pharmacology in those ivory black bones. That animals are slaughtered wholesale to perfect skanky-blue eye shadow is abhorrent.

I see no other solution to your dilemma but to not only obstain from art, to outright boycott it immediately.

[Alan Cross]

I see no other solution to your dilemma but to not only obstain from art, to outright boycott it immediately.

I think this is a bit severe, like Keith and I both said just don't use black.
Alan

[MsLilypond]

To not care is just plain wrong.

And I don't need a lesson in the cycle of life I am aware of it. I just don't think certain things are right like torturing animals for the benifit of science, yadayadayada.

As for paint, I simply do not want to paint with dead animals. Probly got that in mascara and junk. Glad I don't wear make up.

Life is one big life-eating, meaningless machine. I realize that.


what about animals that died of natural causes? Don't eat McDonalds french fries by the way, they are fried in animal fats. I applaud your ideals but don't necessarily agree with them. The way I think is if a lion is allowed to eat meat the I should be allowed to as well. Please tell me you are not one of those people who force their pets to only eat vegetable & grained based food, that is not healthy for them. By the way I only use make up not tested on animals.

[arlene]

this is the classical forum and not debates. Please let's get back to the question at hand and not turn this into a discussion on what we eat or don't eat.

[MsLilypond]

Are oil paints the same?? Can I just switch to oils?


pigments are the same whatever they are in, the difference between oils, acrylics, watercolors, etc. is what they are bound with to make that medium.


and about ultramarine, it is a substitute for lapis lazuli, it may have one time been made from crushed gems but not anymore. There is a whole thread devoted to it in the color theory/mixing forum

If you do want paints made from lapis lazuli, check out the Danial Smith company, they found a new source of it. Theirs is more of a muted blue, still lovely, just not as bright as it was when the old masters used it.

Arlene, I apologize for my previous post.

But the main question remains, if you knew of a company that ground their own pigments, and for the pigment pbk9 used bones from animals that died of natural causes or had to be put to sleep because they were sick would you buy their product?

[Keith Russell]

this is the classical forum and not debates. Please let's get back to the question at hand and not turn this into a discussion on what we eat or don't eat.

The 'animal rights' angle was clearly present from the intial post. This thread was not 'turned' to a different topic; the issue of animal products being used as ingredients in art supplies is the topic.

Whether or not to eating animals is an integral aspect of the 'animal rights' debate, and thus it is relevant to this topic. This thing was a debate from the beginning, as I see it...

K

[arlene]

Personally I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness. :)