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Ron van den Boogaard
02-08-2004, 01:58 PM
A while back someone posted a picture of a bird, a book and a piece of cloth, which sparked a bit of a debate.
It inspired me to do a piece along the same lines. (Just took a while to get it photographed)
it's oilpastels on panel, 24 x 24 inches.
Yes, it's a political statement and an example of how one piece of art leas to the next. Debates can be done in pictures rather than words.

Ron van den Boogaard
02-13-2004, 07:25 AM
with the enormeous response here, maybe a little explanation does help here.

this directly represents my views on a big part of US foreign policy and it's effects. and we should never forget that.

HF AIRBRUSH
02-13-2004, 08:33 AM
Hey Ron,
its good to see another dutchman..hmm amsterdam...thats were i was born...im living about 60km away from you ;)

about the painting...ive read the explanation...but sorry i still don't get it. :confused:

henk

stoney
02-13-2004, 11:18 PM
with the enormeous response here, maybe a little explanation does help here.

this directly represents my views on a big part of US foreign policy and it's effects. and we should never forget that.

Your words give a bit of background to the work. Let me guess. The U.S. is the bird-of-prey swooping over the world and those below can never be sure when or where it will strike. Am I anywhere close?

Ron van den Boogaard
02-16-2004, 10:35 AM
well, i would not exactly have phrased it like that, but indeed that could be an interpretation which is very close to my views. to me (but any other interpretation can be equally valid) it is about wounds and dark clouds overhead. US foreign politics seem to have done a lot of damage under pretences that don't seem totally honest. to put it mildly.
Basically it was my point to put another side against the original post of the aegle, the bible and the american flag. (And there is always another side)

Henk, there indeed don't seem to be very much dutchman around here.

stoney
02-16-2004, 11:59 PM
well, i would not exactly have phrased it like that, but indeed that could be an interpretation which is very close to my views.

Stoney;
( chuckling ) There are times when I speak plainly.

Ron;
to me (but any other interpretation can be equally valid) it is about wounds and dark clouds overhead. US foreign politics seem to have done a lot of damage under pretences that don't seem totally honest. to put it mildly.

Stoney;
Very mildly.

Ron;
Basically it was my point to put another side against the original post of the aegle, the bible and the american flag. (And there is always another side)

Stoney;
I never saw the original painting which inspired you.

Stoney;
For fiction, I personally prefer the book "The Wizard of Oz" over the Bible.

Ron;
Henk, there indeed don't seem to be very much dutchman around here.

Ron van den Boogaard
02-17-2004, 06:42 AM
The original, which "inspired" me (or enraged me) can be found at
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133611

btw, a threead that became very interesting with all sorts of political and religious views.

SanDL
02-17-2004, 06:45 AM
I saw the painting to which you were responding. And I found it sickening.
Your response suggested wounds to me, and there is a sense of depression,scarring and division. Stylistically. you are making a response that is abstract versus the simplistic, naive drawing in question. And here you see the rift most clearly.

Did making this image help you emotionally deal with the issues that were presented over the course of that vitriolic debate? In the past, I have used response drawings to help clarify things.

Thanks for posting.

stoney
02-17-2004, 11:03 AM
The original, which "inspired" me (or enraged me) can be found at
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133611

Stoney;
That's a very nice work Lorraine did. Thank you for the link.

I can see how one can be either inspired or enraged by it.

Ron;
btw, a threead that became very interesting with all sorts of political and religious views.

Stoney;
I bet it did... :)

stoney
02-17-2004, 11:05 AM
I saw the painting to which you were responding. And I found it sickening.

Which painting did you have that response to? The original or Ron's response? (curiosity)


SanDl;
Your response suggested wounds to me, and there is a sense of depression,scarring and division. Stylistically. you are making a response that is abstract versus the simplistic, naive drawing in question. And here you see the rift most clearly.

Did making this image help you emotionally deal with the issues that were presented over the course of that vitriolic debate? In the past, I have used response drawings to help clarify things.

Thanks for posting.

SanDL
02-17-2004, 11:25 AM
I found Lorraine's version sickening.

I found Ron's drawing also reflecting my dismay at the rift that has become apparent in the US. The division between the "Christian" right and the moderate people is becoming wider as we approach election time.

sonyabologna
02-18-2004, 10:51 AM
May I just briefly add that I think your painting is beautiful, and deeply meaningful, Ron? It's not a cartoon with over-used, clichéd symbols, but rather a reflection of your own thoughts and feelings. And it gave me chills.

This may sound odd, and perhaps off-topic, but I envy you, living where you do, in a country with so many personal freedoms which we don't have here in the US (and ours are steadily diminishing). I hope to visit Amsterdam in the next few years (hell, I may become a citizen if this November's election goes the way I'm afraid it will).

Thanks for posting your painting.

stoney
02-18-2004, 05:30 PM
I found Lorraine's version sickening.

stoney;
I did as well. (Her work was very well done) So much decimation, denigration, bigotry, destruction, hypocracy, and waste can be laid at the metaphorical feet of that tome.

Sandl;
I found Ron's drawing also reflecting my dismay at the rift that has become apparent in the US. The division between the "Christian" right and the moderate people is becoming wider as we approach election time.

stoney;
The Religious Reich will not stop until they, once again, generate a theocracy as 'in the good old days'" of The Inquisition. It doesn't matter to them if they violate every "Commandment" (first version) in their 'Holy Book.' :\

And the Executive and Legislative branches have been using the Constitution they've sworn to defend and uphold as toilet paper. :\

They've done a fine job of decimating education in the U.S.. If the populace of the U.S. was educated, they'd be laughing at the Creationist/Discovery Institute cretins instead of supporting their political agenda to ram their superstition into science classes.

There are a heck of a lot of fine upstanding and honourable theists (pick brand) as well as folks who are not theist. Unfortunately, the fine, upstanding, and honourable theists are not curbing their 'mad dog' brethen.
Superstition uber alles. :\


Second American Revolution anyone?

SanDL
02-18-2004, 08:36 PM
There are a heck of a lot of fine upstanding and honourable theists (pick brand) as well as folks who are not theist. Unfortunately, the fine, upstanding, and honourable theists are not curbing their 'mad dog' brethen.
Superstition uber alles.

My husband considers himself a fine upstanding theist. I asked PRECISELY this question over dinner tonight: what are you doing, as a fine upstanding theist to curb the behavior of your rabid bretheren? His response was: Not my job.

I was exasperated. Let's just hope these fine upstanding theists will all go and vote the witch hunters out of office, including those in the house and senate.

arourapope
02-18-2004, 11:51 PM
I don't post in this forum much, but I wanted to say that I find this piece poingnant, frightning, and powerful.

HF AIRBRUSH
02-19-2004, 02:29 AM
maybe im going way over my head here...but i would like to respond...

i find this kind of statments just sick...
oke lets see....
ron has his statement about what the usa is doing...oke..
The germans did some terrible things in the second world war...but the israelian are doing the same thing these days with the palestian...
The usa is doing terrible things today...but ron has forgotten the good work in the second world war....
and how about we dutchman....are we good?...
how about indonesia?...and how were we in slavery?....
are whe dutchman that good?....are we that nice?....no ron...lets not forget our crimes...lets not forget...

somehowe you can always find something about a country...but i don't think its the meaning of art to sicken everyone...
lets forget the country's...and be just artists....
sure you can make a statement....but this is no statement....this is just sickening...

henk

SanDL
02-19-2004, 09:35 AM
somehowe you can always find something about a country...but i don't think its the meaning of art to sicken everyone...
lets forget the country's...and be just artists....
sure you can make a statement....but this is no statement....this is just sickening...


Artists who are conscious and are aware of their world, reflect what they experience in their work. They reflect the moods and the directions that life takes around them. That's what makes them important to society. They are bell weathers, the canaries in the coal mine, they are the mirrors. If they have a social conscience, they warn and point to the dangers.

Artists who refuse to look, reflect, and agitate are not fullfilling their proper role as artists.

victorialis
02-19-2004, 09:50 AM
Artists who are conscious and are aware of their world, reflect what they experience in their work. They reflect the moods and the directions that life takes around them. That's what makes them important to society. They are bell weathers, the canaries in the coal mine, they are the mirrors. If they have a social conscience, they warn and point to the dangers.

Artists who refuse to look, reflect, and agitate are not fullfilling their proper role as artists.

Sheep? Canaries? Inert glass?

What happens, when socially conscious art gets so bunched up into one big scream that humanity is forgotten, denigrated, and denied in art's mesmerised concentration upon the dangers being pointed to? What happens when anomie is educated into innocent minds as the important and sophisticated stance?

What happens is postmodernism.

I'd like to suggest the proper role of artists is a little more complex -- and much more demanding -- than that.

A scream is the first sound made by a newborn. Do we expect no more of an artist's consciousness? If not -- then we deserve to get no more.

SanDL
02-19-2004, 10:02 AM
Sheep? Canaries? Inert glass?
???

What happens, when socially conscious art gets so bunched up into one big scream that humanity is forgotten, denigrated, and denied in art's mesmerised concentration upon the dangers being pointed to? What happens when anomie is educated into innocent minds as the important and sophisticated stance?

What happens is postmodernism.

What if all we have now is the fruit of decay?

I'd like to suggest the proper role of artists is a little more complex -- and much more demanding -- than that.

What the hell were you expecting in this forum, a fricking dissertation?
Artists as leaders perhaps? The French Revolution comes to mind.
Go on, lead the way then. But you have suggested merely "lurking" in the past

victorialis
02-19-2004, 10:29 AM
What if all we have now is the fruit of decay?


Do you believe this? I suspect you don't. I know I don't. I think we've still got what we've always had, throughout the known history of art; but at present we've chosen to look at what we have as human beings in this particular way -- and it doesn't seem to be doing anything healthful for us.

I'm very sorry if I'm working your nerves. I'm not saying you're wrong. Only that there's more.

One has little choice beyond lurking when an attempt to discuss this gets people so upset. And so the despair becomes self-fulfilling.

That's my whole argument: if images have power -- we should be very careful of the nature of what we choose to invoke. If they do not have power, then visual art is done anyway, stick a fork in it.

SanDL
02-19-2004, 11:17 AM
Do you believe this? I suspect you don't. I know I don't. I think we've still got what we've always had, throughout the known history of art; but at present we've chosen to look at what we have as human beings in this particular way -- and it doesn't seem to be doing anything healthful for us.

I don't know what I believe. I don't know what belief IS.

I'm very sorry if I'm working your nerves. I'm not saying you're wrong. Only that there's more.

I'm glad you noticed. I KNOW there's more.

One has little choice beyond lurking when an attempt to discuss this gets people so upset. And so the despair becomes self-fulfilling.
People need to be upset. Their lethargy is deadly.

That's my whole argument: if images have power -- we should be very careful of the nature of what we choose to invoke. If they do not have power, then visual art is done anyway, stick a fork in it.

Too many images have no power. The world is saturated. Vomiting seems the right response.

victorialis
02-19-2004, 12:41 PM
People need to be upset. Their lethargy is deadly.
I agree. It's what they do individually when upset that's crucial. If they can't get past the groupthink of doomsday, though -- for them, there will be doomsday. And they will have invoked it themselves, and have themselves to thank for it.
Too many images have no power. The world is saturated. Vomiting seems the right response.
heheh... Cindy Sherman is way ahead of you. One of her images (Untitled, 1987) includes, among other fortunately less recognisable matter, some barf. I'm not including a link to such material here.

And once the purgation has been effected? Surely the answer is not bulimia.

But in the free world, many have chosen that -- because they leave themselves tied into what Artworld has barfed up -- feeling a need to respect the past as any lifelong student would -- and quite baffled to be the current crop of artists, with that having come before them. What on earth can one say to that?

I say leave it all behind -- including Artworld -- without a backward look. It's already happening. It's already invalidated itself. We're here today. Today counts. Today is it. Today is beautiful, immediate, fully present on the individual scale. Groupthink is empty and directionless and isn't even telling an interesting story at the moment, in the art department.

SanDL
02-19-2004, 01:02 PM
But in the free world, many have chosen that -- because they leave themselves tied into what Artworld has barfed up -- feeling a need to respect the past as any lifelong student would -- and quite baffled to be the current crop of artists, with that having come before them. What on earth can one say to that?

I don't know. Does anyone under 35 know how to read images anymore? Does anyone know what they are really saying in their work?

I say leave it all behind -- including Artworld -- without a backward look. It's already happening. It's already invalidated itself. We're here today. Today counts. Today is it. Today is beautiful, immediate, fully present on the individual scale. Groupthink is empty and directionless and isn't even telling an interesting story at the moment, in the art department.

I've considered it but I'm not ready to be homeless.Yet.

HF AIRBRUSH
02-19-2004, 01:37 PM
i understand the power of art and the stand an artist takes...
in my opiniun the human ras makes lots of mistakes and is the biggest mistake ever made at this planet...were poisoning the planet and destroying nature...if i would i could express that in my paintings but what will i accomplisch ( hope i write it well )...nothing...the human ras will not listen to one lonely artist in a small country like mine...
but as i see in this topic is that someone makes an attack at america and in the mean while his own country made several mistakes in the past...
im a dutchman and im proud of it...but we made lots of mistakes against other country's in the past...so who am i to point my finger to another country?...
this is what ron is doing in my opinion..
america is like a shadow over this planet....but without that shadow he would be speaking german instead of dutch...never forget that !

if this is the way of making a stand as an artist...well..than there is something wrong...

henk

victorialis
02-19-2004, 02:17 PM
I don't know. Does anyone under 35 know how to read images anymore? Does anyone know what they are really saying in their work?
Things are quite up in the air at present. I don't know if we can draw any useful conclusions about people in the aggregate, on this point. This particular crisis (if you believe in crises) is the raging downside of individual freedom. We who've got it are buggered if we know exactly what to do with it -- so many of us seem in a great hurry to take refuge in commonalities again, and the commonalities don't do any of us justice, really. It's a bizarre spiral of paradox. No one wants to be led. Yet there is a longing for a sense of direction -- juxtaposed with an increasing fear of tyrrany.

Did you notice, in the LOTR films, how many minutes of screen time were devoted to portraying evil, ugliness, horror and despair -- compared to how many minutes went to the portrayal of beauty, equilibrium, peace and well-being?

People in cooperation can agree easily on ugliness and pour prodigious effort and resources into replicating it, for heavens sake (like there's not enough already)! But it seems we need to leave beauty a great deal more nebulous -- more personal, more private. The beautiful, in the LOTR films, is only hinted at. I thought that was interesting -- and telling.
I've considered it but I'm not ready to be homeless.Yet.I know you catch a lot of flak for your views in what passes for the real world, San. I survive by knowing and facing the fact that no one really cares what i really think, anyway. I can count the few in my life who do, on the fingers of one hand. And that's OK... because it's always been that way.

This view of mine does some interesting things to the normal concept of ambition.

victorialis
02-19-2004, 02:50 PM
hey there, henk -- I respect the maturity of your viewpoint very much. One doesn't see such views expressed very often.

I really don't know what to say to ron, though. I know he speaks for a lot of people in what he says in this painting. Many people share his opinion.

Making this painting was part of his artistic process. He's working his way through the ideas. I can respect that, too. That's important work and it has to be done.

hey, ron -- were you prepared for reactions to this work that were not reactions of agreement?

SanDL
02-19-2004, 03:43 PM
Things are quite up in the air at present. I don't know if we can draw any useful conclusions about people in the aggregate, on this point. This particular crisis (if you believe in crises) is the raging downside of individual freedom. We who've got it are buggered if we know exactly what to do with it -- so many of us seem in a great hurry to take refuge in commonalities again, and the commonalities don't do any of us justice, really. It's a bizarre spiral of paradox. No one wants to be led. Yet there is a longing for a sense of direction -- juxtaposed with an increasing fear of tyrrany.
You articulated this dilemma with welcome clarity.

Did you notice, in the LOTR films, how many minutes of screen time were devoted to portraying evil, ugliness, horror and despair -- compared to how many minutes went to the portrayal of beauty, equilibrium, peace and well-being?
People in cooperation can agree easily on ugliness and pour prodigious effort and resources into replicating it, for heavens sake (like there's not enough already)! But it seems we need to leave beauty a great deal more nebulous -- more personal, more private. The beautiful, in the LOTR films, is only hinted at. I thought that was interesting -- and telling.
I know you catch a lot of flak for your views in what passes for the real world, San. I survive by knowing and facing the fact that no one really cares what i really think, anyway. I can count the few in my life who do, on the fingers of one hand. And that's OK... because it's always been that way.This view of mine does some interesting things to the normal concept of ambition.

Yes, I hear you. I'll try harder to let go. As soon as I get over my panic that my universe is collapsing. :)

Henk, I agree with you that the blame game is a futile effort. I just fear people who believe that problems are solved with religion.

Ron van den Boogaard
02-19-2004, 04:11 PM
First off, thanks for all the compliments.

Secondly, to clear something up: I did react to a painting posted here that was rather on a patriotic side I did not particurly like and that meant making something tat pointed the finger at US politics. This by NO MEANS mean that I consider my own country any better. It is in fact quite sickening what happens here in Holland right now. But doing the one thing -pointing a finger in one direction- does mean that I am blind for all the other stuff or in favour of another country or whatever.

In more general terms, some of my images are political, some are not, some are like the first scream of a newborn, other lean on the large history of painting and the arts. It all seem valid to me as long as it provokes somethng with me. As a result it often seem to provoke something with the viewers. And sometime it doesn't.
To me being original seems to count most. original within my own personal realm. And staying away from anything that can be easily seen as illustration or decoration.
For a second I feared that this thread was going the same vitriolic direction as the first one, happy to see it didn't.
Thank you all, keep up the good work.

victorialis
02-19-2004, 04:51 PM
In more general terms, some of my images are political, some are not, some are like the first scream of a newborn, other lean on the large history of painting and the arts. It all seem valid to me as long as it provokes somethng with me. As a result it often seem to provoke something with the viewers. And sometime it doesn't.

Ron, I think that's good. Maybe it takes a whole lifetime to fully awaken -- and to know that we are awake -- and to believe it. There is so much to see and so much to understand.

HF AIRBRUSH
02-19-2004, 06:01 PM
and you forgot....there is so much to learn... ;)
i see patriotisme as beeing proud of your roots...im proud to be dutch...
and sometimes you can see that in my paintings.....
but maybe i misunderstood ron...
i think that it ins't just amerika or here in holland....more and more people warn for the distruction of our planet...and the politician just keep on destroying...no matter what country or ras...

henk

victorialis
02-19-2004, 06:16 PM
henk, the politicians are us. They come from among us. But never mind. I shall defer to the prevailing gloom.

you're right -- I did forget to learn.

But whatever I forget to learn will come around again. And here it is, now. And this time I will do better.

stoney
02-19-2004, 06:39 PM
My husband considers himself a fine upstanding theist. I asked PRECISELY this question over dinner tonight: what are you doing, as a fine upstanding theist to curb the behavior of your rabid bretheren? His response was: Not my job.

I was exasperated. Let's just hope these fine upstanding theists will all go and vote the witch hunters out of office, including those in the house and senate.

Stoney;
I understand his point. However, imo, its precisely the "it isn't my job" attitude that created and has sustained the problem. The separation of church and state protects theists and non-theists alike. That separation is what has kept us from armed religious conflict in our own country.

As it stands now, Bush could arrest your husband as a 'enemy combatant' and strip him of his citizenship and transfer him to Gitmo for the next fifty years. Evidence? None needed-I said so is sufficient. When fundamentalists run things, no one is safe.

It would be nice if such an elimination of these varmints from offices took place, but it won't happen. After all, these folks *are* Christians who have such a hefty 'moral compass.' (sorry, I couldn't resist the bitter sarcasm)

He may consider himself a 'fine upstanding theist.' This leads to a couple of questions. I should point out these questions are rhetorical.

1) What about a 'fine upstanding American?' What about 'liberty and justice for all?' Does theism override the ideals and principles America claims to stand for? If so, imo, the country has died and the greatest experiment in the history of mankind has failed miserably because the citizens just didn't give a damn. :\

2) As a 'fine upstanding theist,' what has he done to hold these people accountable to what are claimed "Christian principles(tm)" of; honesty, integrity, compassion, and empathy?

It should be noted that I consider "judge not lest yea be judged" to be a cop-out, as Christians judge constantly.

It should also be noted neither the Bible, or the Q'uran have legal standing in United States law as this is not a "Christian Country(tm)" as the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 ((iirc) (ratified by Congress)) indicates.

Granted, many of the founding fathers were christians. But all the religious purges of Europe and other inequities were pretty doggone recent to them. They wanted to keep religious warfare out of this country.

And the DOI (Declaration of Independance) was a declaration of war and has no legal standing in the U.S..

SanDL
02-19-2004, 06:55 PM
I don't usually like to be disturbed in my gloom, Vic. But you make me smile.

But to be sure we don't get too cheerful, here is an exerpt from "War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning" by Chris Hedges (Anchor Books, 2003)

"In the former Yugoslavia, it was the nationalist propaganda pumped out over television, far more than ancient hatreds, that did the most to provoke rivalry and finally war between ethnic groups. The nationalist governments, rather than allow for the discussion of competing ideas and viwpoints, used the absolute power they wielded over the broadcast media to play and replay images that provoked outrage and anger. They told stories, many of them fabricated, about alleged atrocities committed by the enemy. Impartial information disappeared. Television became the emotional crutch used to justify violence and rally ethnic groups around nationalist leaders. Those who advocated violence were affirmed, night after night, in their righteous anger. The principle religious institutions - the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church in Croatia- were willing accomplices. They were national churches and worked as propagandists for the state. The clerics, on all three sides, were a disgrace. U.N. mediators in Sarajevo wearliy complained that it was easier to get Serb and Muslim commanders to the table than opposing clerics.

Archeology, folklore, and the search for what is defined as authenticity are the tools used by nationalists to assail others and promote themselves. They dress it up as history, but it is myth. Real historical inquiry, in the process, is corrupted, assaulted and often destroyed. Facts become as interchangeable as opinions. The obvious inconsistencies are ignored by those intoxicated by a newly found sense of national pride and exciting prospect of war." (p.46-47)

This exerpt seems salient enough to cross post in the "lies, lies,lies" thread in debates. See you over there.

stoney
02-19-2004, 07:13 PM
I don't know. Does anyone under 35 know how to read images anymore? Does anyone know what they are really saying in their work?

Stoney;
Read images? Either I never learned that or its been long forgotten in my career as an electronics tech. I don't know of any messages in my stuff, I'm taking the first steps in this medium.


SanDL;
I've considered it but I'm not ready to be homeless.Yet.

SanDL
02-19-2004, 07:18 PM
Read images? Either I never learned that or its been long forgotten in my career as an electronics tech. I don't know of any messages in my stuff, I'm taking the first steps in this medium.

Reading images means understanding the emotional and cognitive messages an image delivers given the colors, the direction of line and the placement and size of objects.
A good book to start with is Molly Bang's "Picture This". It's readily available.

SanDL
02-19-2004, 07:22 PM
Stoney;
I understand his point. However, imo, its precisely the "it isn't my job" attitude that created and has sustained the problem. The separation of church and state protects theists and non-theists alike. That separation is what has kept us from armed religious conflict in our own country.

As it stands now, Bush could arrest your husband as a 'enemy combatant' and strip him of his citizenship and transfer him to Gitmo for the next fifty years. Evidence? None needed-I said so is sufficient. When fundamentalists run things, no one is safe.

It would be nice if such an elimination of these varmints from offices took place, but it won't happen. After all, these folks *are* Christians who have such a hefty 'moral compass.' (sorry, I couldn't resist the bitter sarcasm)

He may consider himself a 'fine upstanding theist.' This leads to a couple of questions. I should point out these questions are rhetorical.

1) What about a 'fine upstanding American?' What about 'liberty and justice for all?' Does theism override the ideals and principles America claims to stand for? If so, imo, the country has died and the greatest experiment in the history of mankind has failed miserably because the citizens just didn't give a damn. :\

2) As a 'fine upstanding theist,' what has he done to hold these people accountable to what are claimed "Christian principles(tm)" of; honesty, integrity, compassion, and empathy?

It should be noted that I consider "judge not lest yea be judged" to be a cop-out, as Christians judge constantly.

It should also be noted neither the Bible, or the Q'uran have legal standing in United States law as this is not a "Christian Country(tm)" as the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 ((iirc) (ratified by Congress)) indicates.

Granted, many of the founding fathers were christians. But all the religious purges of Europe and other inequities were pretty doggone recent to them. They wanted to keep religious warfare out of this country.

And the DOI (Declaration of Independance) was a declaration of war and has no legal standing in the U.S..

I appreciate your POV. You sound like a fellow hot head. :)

victorialis
02-20-2004, 03:53 PM
This exerpt seems salient enough to cross post in the "lies, lies,lies" thread in debates. See you over there.

you ain't kiddin'. see you there.

stoney
02-20-2004, 04:21 PM
Reading images means understanding the emotional and cognitive messages an image delivers given the colors, the direction of line and the placement and size of objects.
A good book to start with is Molly Bang's "Picture This". It's readily available.

Thank you, kindly. I've written this down and will do some checking.

stoney
02-20-2004, 05:01 PM
i understand the power of art and the stand an artist takes...
in my opiniun the human ras makes lots of mistakes and is the biggest mistake ever made at this planet...were poisoning the planet and destroying nature...if i would i could express that in my paintings but what will i accomplisch ( hope i write it well )...nothing...the human ras will not listen to one lonely artist in a small country like mine...

Stoney;
Your writing is fine, what you are saying is coming through clear.

/language assist mode
opiniun is opinion.
ras=race
accomplisch=accomplish
were can be used in different ways. When it is used as 'we are' it is a contraction and is "we're." The ' indicates this.
/language assist mode

I suspect you meant to write "If I could, I would express that in my paintings..."

As to what you could, or would, accomplish; maybe much, maybe nothing. In my opinion, the size of the country the artist is in does not matter. IMO, the message does. Images have the potential for much power.

Several years ago, there was a picture of a young Kurdish girl with green eyes. The intensity of the eyes along with her expression resonated around the world.

Henk;
but as i see in this topic is that someone makes an attack at america and in the mean while his own country made several mistakes in the past...
im a dutchman and im proud of it...but we made lots of mistakes against other country's in the past...so who am i to point my finger to another country?...
this is what ron is doing in my opinion..
america is like a shadow over this planet....but without that shadow he would be speaking german instead of dutch...never forget that !

Stoney;
WWII was a multi-national effort to defeat the Nazis. It took the combined brains, mobilization, and industry of several nations, and one heck of a lot of lives.

I see "the shadow" in two different ways. Looking at things in the past the shadow was benevolent.

Looking at things as they are now, I see the WWII "White Shadow" has turned black.

Henk;
if this is the way of making a stand as an artist...well..than there is something wrong...

henk

Stoney;
Depends. I see Ron's work as both recognizing the past and warning of the future.

stoney
02-20-2004, 05:06 PM
You articulated this dilemma with welcome clarity.



Yes, I hear you. I'll try harder to let go. As soon as I get over my panic that my universe is collapsing. :)

Henk, I agree with you that the blame game is a futile effort. I just fear people who believe that problems are solved with religion.

(shudder) Christian Taliban anyone? Or how about those kindly, loving, and gentle folks of the Office of the Holy Inquisition? We've already got a "Grand Inquisitor" in Ashcroft. :\