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Pilan
08-13-2001, 02:48 PM
From time to time some of my tubes will get a bit firm like it was not mixed properly. The paint is hard to use directly out of the tube and I have been using tupinoid to thin it.

I decided to try a tiny bit of linseed oil with the hard to use tube and it was much easier to apply.

What are the drawbacks of using linseed oil like this? I also loved the way it went on more like butter and got all excited :)

Has anyone had experience with linseed oil and what is your opinion with using it like this. Also, what type of oil maybe better to use. i.e walnut or differently processed linseed oil?????

hope I made my question clear enough.
Thanks
Pilan

Leopoldo1
08-13-2001, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Pilan
From time to time some of my tubes will get a bit firm like it was not mixed properly. The paint is hard to use directly out of the tube and I have been using tupinoid to thin it.
I decided to try a tiny bit of linseed oil with the hard to use tube and it was much easier to apply.
What are the drawbacks of using linseed oil like this? I also loved the way it went on more like butter and got all excited :)


Pilan, linseed oil is better than using solvents to recapture the short pigment. Most pigments are ground in linseed oil because it makes a wonderful binder. The solvents like turpenoid will dull your pigments. John Singer Sargent used linseed oil most exclusively as a medium in his paintings! Keep the turpenoid for brush cleaning, etc. :oL

Pilan
08-13-2001, 11:59 PM
***The solvents like turpenoid will dull your pigments. John Singer Sargent used linseed oil most exclusively as a medium in his paintings! Keep the turpenoid for brush cleaning, etc. L
****

It seems that the reply is set up differently, or am I wrong.

Anyway, thanks for the response to the linseed question.

I understand what your saying about the linseed but the tupinoid is different.

I was under the impression that it is better to use turpentine because it evaporate thus leaving nearly pure pigment on the canvas which is said per Steve Allrich's book ( Oil Painting for the Serious Beginner) make the paintings easier to care for. I was going by the same concept about turpinoid. But, realize that the turpinoid is a subsitute for turpentine.

Whats your thoughts on this belief of Steves? Also, I am not knowledgable about linseed oil to know what product line would be the best for linseed oil. Or, is there a difference? Lastly, when using added linseed in this manner, does it not delay drying time a lot more and if so please give me an example.

Thank you
Pilan

Alabama
08-14-2001, 08:42 AM
Pilan, when your tubes have stiffened, that's because the oil has separated from the pigment. Re-grinding the batch (or mixing the whole batch with a palette knife) with linseed oil (walnut oil for whites and blues), and then retubing, is like reconstituting your tube of paint. Linseed oil does, of course, take longer to dry as it is an oil and rectified (distilled) turpentine is a non oleo-resinous spirit of...well, turpentine (tree sap, if you will). Two totally different ball games.

If you find you enjoy the resulting lack of linseed oil, in the future you can lay out some paint on a paper towel, piece of paper or, better yet, a flat slab of plaster to drain out the extraneous oil.

Use cleaned, cold-pressed linseed oil and walnut oil for any and all painting purposes. These are sold by Robert Doak.

Alabama
08-14-2001, 08:48 AM
Rectified turpentine is used for temporarily diluting paints and mediums (as you already know, it evaporates super quickly). It is toxic so don't let it get on your skin. I'm not all that familiar with turpenoid. Is it a mineral spirit? If so, then it is used for cleaning. Mineral spirits are petroleum based, and thus take much longer to dry, but according to what I know it doesn't leave an oleo-resinous residue. I haven't heard of paintings suffering from its use as a medium, but I wouldn't do it. I haven't seen or done any sufficient tests to know for sure. Until then stick with mineral spirits for cleaning and turpentine for painting.

Could somebody please tell me what turpenoid is, exactly?

Gerauds
08-14-2001, 11:03 AM
I used to use Turpenoid regularly, in an attempt to avoid exposure to the "evil turpentine toxins." However, it just doesn't work as well. It is actually a brush cleaner, and even warns that if you mix it with paint that you should use a very small amount.

As a brush cleaner it isn't all that great, either. At least in my humble opinion. It tends to gunk up pretty quickly. I guess if you really are afraid of turpentine, it's alright, but if you can get over your fear, leave the turpenoid for the occasional conditioning of brushes.

Geraud

ArtistEnigma
08-14-2001, 11:18 AM
Using linseed oil as a medium is great. It mixes better because obviously oil paints use an oil vehicle. It keeps the colors and also has great performance. Turpentine has its advantages too though. It's great if you want to reduce the vibrancy of the pigments or make it really watery, that sounds negative but I use the effect quite often. I didn't use linseed oil or stand oil for a while because I was a bit timid of it, which sounds funny. I didn't want to put too much or too little and I would measure it out on my palette knife which would take a while, but the turp was right there in a nice little container and I was able to just dab my brush into it and go to town. I finally wanted the linseed medium effect so I decided to change my ways of using it. Stand oil I dribble onto the paint still but linseed oil I put in a small glass jar so I can dip my brush into it almost like watercolor and just mix it with the paint. Linseed oil is inexpensive so I use it more than stand oil, which tends to cost more.

Pilan
08-14-2001, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Alabama
Pilan, when your tubes have stiffened, that's because the oil has separated from the pigment. Re-grinding the batch (or mixing the whole batch with a palette knife) with linseed oil (walnut oil for whites and blues), and then retubing, is like reconstituting your tube of paint. Linseed oil does, of course, take longer to dry as it is an oil and rectified (distilled) turpentine is a non oleo-resinous spirit of...well, turpentine (tree sap, if you will). Two totally different ball games.

If you find you enjoy the resulting lack of linseed oil, in the future you can lay out some paint on a paper towel, piece of paper or, better yet, a flat slab of plaster to drain out the extraneous oil.

Use cleaned, cold-pressed linseed oil and walnut oil for any and all painting purposes. These are sold by Robert Doak.

Actually I do like the way linseed oil allowed me to paint. I had painted one picture in oil years ago but remembered it took ages to dry. But then, I never painted anymore at that time. So, I can't really say if it took a month or more.

Thank you for the clarification on the linseed oil / walnut oil as well.

I did find I have two small bottle of linseed oil but will make arrangements to purchase the walnut oil.

I just want to use my paints in the very best possible manner plus keep the color vibrant.

P

Pilan
08-14-2001, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Gerauds

At least in my humble opinion. It tends to gunk up pretty quickly. I guess if you really are afraid of turpentine, it's alright, but if you can get over your fear, leave the turpenoid for the occasional conditioning of brushes.

Geraud

Turpinoid is expensive as well. The only reason why I use it because of the turpentine odor. I do have a can of it in the garage and may just start using it in small quanties.
I also think I use way to much turpinoid just because of the firm paints and do agree with you on the gunking up part.

I am going to change the way I paint and thank you all for your response and feedback. :clap:
Pilan

Scott Methvin
08-14-2001, 12:29 PM
Hi Pilan

Pigment mixed with mostly terpentine will work in the short run, but is a very weak way to make oil paint. This is why it is mostly used in an underpainting technique and not as the final surface coat. Take a dried passage that was thinned with terps and rub it with a dry rag. If you see color on the rag-you'll know that the binder wasn't very binding.

You need a good binder to hold the pigment in suspension. Linseed oil is the all around best at this.

Terpenoid is just kerosene with a fancy name. Another petroleum product that isn't nearly as good as real terpentine. Try rectified terpentine instead of the cheap kind. It doesn't smell as strong and won't have the same residue.

You may want to try making your own paint from scratch. It is very easy to do with most pigments. Basically mixing linseed oil and dry pigment with a pallette knife. You are already doing this with separated tube paint. Dry pigment and raw oil is cheaper than the tube paint, in the long run. You can also make your paint anyway you like it.

Walnut oil is a slow drying "clear" oil that isn't quite as good as linseed. It will yellow and isn't as elastic when dry as the linseed. Better for stiffer supports, rather than canvas.

Everyone eventually finds a comfortable way to use oil paint. There are 1001 permutations. If you understand your materials you can build a painting that will outlive the artist.

Alabama
08-14-2001, 01:52 PM
Okay, so turpenoid is another petroleum cleaner. Thank you. According to what is said about it, though, mineral spirits are still the way to go. Most hardware store will carry odorless mineral spirits. Just so you know, the fumes of mineral spirits are actually harmful, as opposed to the fumes of turpentine. Turpentine fumes displace oxygen, but they are not in themselves toxic. So you want plenty of ventilation.

To clarify on the differences between linseed and walnut oil as binders: walnut oil does technically dry more slowly than linseed oil, but only negligably. (By the way, we are talking about cleaned, cold-pressed oils, which dry more quickly and have significantly stronger paint-film properties). Walnut oil darkens less than linseed oil, which is why lead white is ground in it. It also yellows less, so that when it is used to grind blues, the blues will not turn green.

As Scott has already said, walnut oil forms a more brittle paint film than linseed oil.


Edited due to idiotic mistakes.

Einion
08-14-2001, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Scott Methvin
You may want to try making your own paint from scratch. It is very easy to do with most pigments. Basically mixing linseed oil and dry pigment with a pallette knife. You are already doing this with separated tube paint.
Really? So what's a muller for then Scott? :)

There is a world of difference between mixing additional oil into short oil paint and into a dry pigment. Hell, if it was that easy to get oil to 'wet' pigment particles they wouldn't need triple rollers!

Einion

Scott Methvin
08-14-2001, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Einion

Really? So what's a muller for then Scott? :)

There is a world of difference between mixing additional oil into short oil paint and into a dry pigment. Hell, if it was that easy to get oil to 'wet' pigment particles they wouldn't need triple rollers!

Einion

Hello Indion,
:D

You CAN easily make small amounts of paint with the right kind of pallette knife. I have and do use a 4" muller, but don't want people to think you need hundreds of dollars of equipment just to make your own paint. For $10, you can buy a small amount of dry pigment (pick from several) and one of those $8 triangular mixing knives (Look like a miniature trowel) Then get yourself a small bottle of cold pressed linseed oil for about $7. Take these 3 items home and find a smooth flat hard surface that won't soak up the oil. Then play with it, by adding various amounts of oil and mixing it and smushing it with the knife. When you get it the right thickness, use it to paint. Pretty easy eh? $25 to make paint. Add different colors and viola', they are your own home made paints, with good linseed oils and no fillers. They will all match.

If you enjoy it enough to take it further, buy a glass muller. ($55)

http://www.sinopia.com
or
http://www.kremer.com

Get a 1/2" piece of sand blasted glass or marble slab.

Get empty paint tubes (they only cost $1 each)

Go to the above sites and select from hundreds of pure pigments, including historic, hard to find kinds you'll never see in the art supply store or their catalog. Like Real vermillion or real ultramarine.

I recomend basic lead carbonate or lead white. it is very easy to make and is an excellent example of how really superior your home made paint is to even Old Holland. (In the case of cremnitz)

Thanks to Enion, I probably scared everyone away now.:D

PS, there are very few pigments that need actual GRINDING, like with a mortar and pestle. You are mostly evenly dispersing the pigment into the oil. Some pigments are quirky and wierd and that can be the fun part. You don't need the triple rollers.

I believe our friend Shawn from Toronto (in this group) makes all kinds of paints using only a pallette knife.

Einion
08-15-2001, 05:04 PM
I don't want to debate the whole mulling vs. palette knife issue with regard to getting workable paint (especially with regard to longevity of the paint film) as there are others here far more knowledgeable about this than I.

However, you left out the most important piece of equipment if you are going to be handling dry pigment: <A HREF=http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/intl.catalog/ekuenst06.htm#dustmasks>a dust mask</A>. And read <A HREF=http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/intl.catalog/handle.htm>this</A> first!

Einion

P.S. The Kremer URL is www.kremer-pigmente.de Scott!

Scott Methvin
08-15-2001, 10:32 PM
Thanks Enion.

Loved Ireland and the Irish. Went there for 2 weeks, Oct 99.

Even had a bit of blood sausage. No one else would try it. It was ok.

Check out my website for the 2 Irish pub paintings. Portrait is in Enis and the other is in Mambridge. Way out in the middle of nowhere. (Northwestern coastalish area)

http://www.methvinfineart.com

Einion
08-16-2001, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Scott Methvin
Even had a bit of blood sausage.
Black pudding dude! Hmmmm, how would I mix that colour...?

Einion

Titanium
08-16-2001, 04:40 PM
Einion ,

black pudding , what a small world. That's the
Friday night special down here . You eat it with
a bread we call - Hops .

You get it down at Charlies . I grew on Black
Pudding .

By the way points well taken on proper dispersal
of pigments in oil . Been hand mulling from since
1985 .

Saw some information on New Pigments here .

http://www.sanders-studios.com/

Click on - Writings --- then on - Tutorial [ blue side bar ]

Middle section -

History, Definitions, and Techniques
of Indirect Oil Painting

Pigments: Past & Present, Pigment Chemistry,

Until later ,
Titanium [ Caribbean ]

Leopoldo1
08-16-2001, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Titanium
By the way points well taken on proper dispersal
of pigments in oil . Been hand mulling from since
1985 .

Well Kim, I have been listening to your fast knowlege in the area of oil painting for the past year or more, either here or at Studio Products. You are quite knowlegable and I am sure we have all benefited from it. Could you please post a picture , which I haven't yet seen, either at Studio or Wet Canvas, so we can all see and benefit again, where your vast knowledge has taken you? Please feel free to do so. :oL

Titanium
08-16-2001, 09:28 PM
Leopoldo ,

that's strange . I left two addresses at StudioProducts
of posted work , paintings and drawings.
One was for Artist Vision at Yahoo groups , hosted by
Ryno . The other was at Glyph .

Ryno has since cleaned up all old images to make way
for new stuff and Glyph has a format that as the weeks
go by the images go to the back pages , until their
taken off.

This forum uses a 60 k max. size , but Yahoo allows
for much larger . I don't have the equipment , so
I usually send the scans to Ryno's .

I did leave a drawing for Cheryl [ Paintfool ] a month or
two ago , here.

I am in the middle of a painting right now and would be
happy to leave an image later on .
Or would you prefer , if I sent it straight to you ?

You can send an e-mail through Rob , and I can reply
with an image .
Titanium

Pilan
08-17-2001, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Einion
I don't want to debate the whole mulling vs. palette knife issue with regard to getting workable paint (especially with regard to longevity of the paint film) as there are others here far more knowledgeable about this than I.

However, you left out the most important piece of equipment if you are going to be handling dry pigment: <A HREF=http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/intl.catalog/ekuenst06.htm#dustmasks>a dust mask</A>. And read <A HREF=http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/intl.catalog/handle.htm>this</A> first!

Einion

P.S. The Kremer URL is www.kremer-pigmente.de Scott!

Einion thanks for the link. I have thought from time to time about mixing a bit of my own on a trial basis. However, I will have to wait until the english version of this website is functioning for me to understand what pigments offered. I don't know if its broken by accident or they are changing stuff around.

How do you pronounce your name?

Pilan