Borosilicate Color Changing & other ??s

[Crayolahalls]

Could anyone direct me to some good information about the color changing properties of borosilicate glass? I would like to try working with it, but I have been unable to find detailed information on WetCanvas and the other places I travel.

I need to know several things in particular right now that I am finding vague in other places:

Does clear boro rod/tube change colors like the pre-colored boro glass?

I have heard that boro users have techniques to make their color supplies hold out longer. I don't need a complete lesson, but could someone please explain the basic idea behind this?

Would a Lynx or Cheetah be appropriate for doing both beads and larger pieces? Is there a better alternative than these two torches, while staying in the same price range?

I have heard that some torches pre-mix their gas and others mix at the flame. Which is better for working with boro - and why?

(As always, vendor input is most welcome. I buy from those that provide service, not just cut-throat prices, as a rule.)

Fred

[generationsglass]

Hi Fred,
Clear boro does not change color (at least it is not supposed to, if you get some that does then something is wrong with the glass).

Not all Boro colors change. Some are WYSIWYG, some are striking (color comes out with heat), and some react to the flame atmosphere (oxidizing, neutra, and reducing flames).

There are several ways to "extend" your colors. You can encase a large clear rod with a color and pull it down to the diameter you like or you can mix it down with clear (if done correctly it is very hard to tell that it is mixed down).

A Lynx and a Cheetah both are good torches and can do small to small/midsized work. If you are going to be going larger, I would suggest going with a large torch (Red-Max, Barracuda, Tiger Shark [coming soon!!!], or Phantom). The Red-Max is an over/under style torch that has a smaller torch on top and a large burner on the bottom and retails for $495. The Barracuda is an incredible torch and has the inner/outer fire configuration. The Barracuda is currently $695 but will be going up to $750 with the next production run.

Generally, surface mix torches are better for working all kinds of glass. With Borosilicate it makes the colors "pop" so much better. The colors just come out brighter and nicer with a surface mix. With soft glass, surface mix burners are just a nicer, softer flame. Bethlehem (Piranha, Barracuda, Tiger Shark, PM2D...), GTT (Bobcat, Lynx, Cheetah, Phantom, Mirage, Delta...), Nortel (Minor, Midrange, Red-Max...) are surface mix torches. The Midrange, Major Burner (not worth buying) and Red-Max are available with the Minor burner or a pre-mix burner on top of the larger burner. Most pre-mix torches are fairly harsh and have a more neutral to reducing flame. Surface mix torches have a much wider variety of flames and are much easier to get a good oxidizing flame (required for some colors).

In my opinion (this is just my opinion) the best torch for the money and performance right now is the Bethlehem Barracuda. It has a nice hot flame, great flame variety, and is capable of very small to large work. I wouldn't say really large, the largest I have made with one so far is an 8" flower vase with 2" HW tubing. I had no problems working that size on the Barracuda.

[Molten Mike]

If you are talking about coor changing like pipes change color, it's not the glass that changes color. They are fumed with silver or gold which leaves a layer of whispy translucent color on the glass, when the pipe is smoked tar and resins from the smoke cover the inside of the glass turnning darker and darker as it gets thicker. The darker it gets the more of the wispy color shows up and gets darker and appears to ghange color, but it's not. If you clean the pipe it will look like it did before you smoked it. The color boro will change colors in the flame or in the kiln but not after the fact.

[Crayolahalls]

If you are talking about coor changing like pipes change color, it's not the glass that changes color. They are fumed with silver or gold which leaves a layer of whispy translucent color on the glass, when the pipe is smoked tar and resins from the smoke cover the inside of the glass turnning darker and darker as it gets thicker. The darker it gets the more of the wispy color shows up and gets darker and appears to ghange color, but it's not. If you clean the pipe it will look like it did before you smoked it. The color boro will change colors in the flame or in the kiln but not after the fact.


I have seen the pipes you mention. The patterns on the pipes seem very deliberate. I can't imagine that they were just randomly appearing. Is there a further technique to get the "hidden" colors/patterns in to the glass? I would like to try this with other vessels, then fill them with darkly died water.

Fred

[Crayolahalls]

Hi Fred,
Clear boro does not change color (at least it is not supposed to, if you get some that does then something is wrong with the glass).

Not all Boro colors change. Some are WYSIWYG, some are striking (color comes out with heat), and some react to the flame atmosphere (oxidizing, neutra, and reducing flames).

There are several ways to "extend" your colors. You can encase a large clear rod with a color and pull it down to the diameter you like or you can mix it down with clear (if done correctly it is very hard to tell that it is mixed down).

A Lynx and a Cheetah both are good torches and can do small to small/midsized work. If you are going to be going larger, I would suggest going with a large torch (Red-Max, Barracuda, Tiger Shark [coming soon!!!], or Phantom). The Red-Max is an over/under style torch that has a smaller torch on top and a large burner on the bottom and retails for $495. The Barracuda is an incredible torch and has the inner/outer fire configuration. The Barracuda is currently $695 but will be going up to $750 with the next production run.

Generally, surface mix torches are better for working all kinds of glass. With Borosilicate it makes the colors "pop" so much better. The colors just come out brighter and nicer with a surface mix. With soft glass, surface mix burners are just a nicer, softer flame. Bethlehem (Piranha, Barracuda, Tiger Shark, PM2D...), GTT (Bobcat, Lynx, Cheetah, Phantom, Mirage, Delta...), Nortel (Minor, Midrange, Red-Max...) are surface mix torches. The Midrange, Major Burner (not worth buying) and Red-Max are available with the Minor burner or a pre-mix burner on top of the larger burner. Most pre-mix torches are fairly harsh and have a more neutral to reducing flame. Surface mix torches have a much wider variety of flames and are much easier to get a good oxidizing flame (required for some colors).

In my opinion (this is just my opinion) the best torch for the money and performance right now is the Bethlehem Barracuda. It has a nice hot flame, great flame variety, and is capable of very small to large work. I wouldn't say really large, the largest I have made with one so far is an 8" flower vase with 2" HW tubing. I had no problems working that size on the Barracuda.

I have been looing at the Red Max torch that you mention. I am confused about it though. Is it a surface mix or pre mix torch?

From what I understand, there is a good amount of chemistry that goes in to the changes colors will go through when worked. Do you know where I can find information about these changes? Ideally, I would like a chart that says what colors are capable of doing and what conditions are required for the desired results.

Fred

[Crazy Woman]

The Red Max can be purchased with either the pre-mix minor or the surface mix minor on top. Mine is with the surface mix on top.... now I just have to move the walls, so I can use the lower flame :D

[jeremy bizzano]

Hey Fred,
Mike is right, a lot of the color changing properties of pipes is achieved with gold or silver fume. The "hidden" patterns that you're thinking of are done with applying the decoration with clear on top of the fume layer. I've made some perfume bottles with these techniques usually used by pipe makers. Here's one, http://www.glassartists.org/Gal3334_a_honeycomb_perfume_bottle_with_opal_stopper.asp. For it the dots on the stem (not the honeycomb net pattern on the bottom) are just dots of clear behind fume. This piece is inside out, meaning the tubing was flared open and the fume layer is on the inside. Then the dots were put in, it was closed down, and shaped. No color glass was used in this piece at all. Some colors look really nice behind fume as well. The fume gives them a metallic look, sometimes changing their color completely.

There are also many colors that do change color with different types of flame atmospheres. You can see a lot of sample photos of how different colors react to different flame settings at both Northstar and Glass Alchemy's websites. Any search engine should find them.

[jeremy bizzano]

Oh yeah, here's a great article by Robert Mickelsen about using Northstar's colors, http://www.mickelsenstudios.com/articles/NORTHSTR.HTM.

[Crayolahalls]

Hey Fred,
Mike is right, a lot of the color changing properties of pipes is achieved with gold or silver fume. The "hidden" patterns that you're thinking of are done with applying the decoration with clear on top of the fume layer. I've made some perfume bottles with these techniques usually used by pipe makers. Here's one, http://www.glassartists.org/Gal3334_a_honeycomb_perfume_bottle_with_opal_stopper.asp. For it the dots on the stem (not the honeycomb net pattern on the bottom) are just dots of clear behind fume. This piece is inside out, meaning the tubing was flared open and the fume layer is on the inside. Then the dots were put in, it was closed down, and shaped. No color glass was used in this piece at all. Some colors look really nice behind fume as well. The fume gives them a metallic look, sometimes changing their color completely.

There are also many colors that do change color with different types of flame atmospheres. You can see a lot of sample photos of how different colors react to different flame settings at both Northstar and Glass Alchemy's websites. Any search engine should find them.

The fume color that you have on the perfume bottle is primarily a yellow-ish color (very nice!). I have seen pieces that have yellow, red, blue, green, pink, etc... all in the same piece. None of the colors were apparant prior to the piece having a contrasting color inserted in it (to simulate resins). Is this becuase the artists fumed the piece and then went back and worked in clear at different temperatures? This seems nearly impossible with some effects, like stripes and latticino effects where the colors seem to hold true even when being repeated in several places within the same piece.

Thank you for the great link about the color changing COLORS. I have book marked it for when I have a few minutes to dive in.

Fred

[jeremy bizzano]

Yeah, that perfume bottle is primarily yellowish because I fumed it real heavy with silver. With a very light layer of silver fume they can look blue-ish. With gold fume the glass looks more pinkish orange. It all depends on how much fume is on it. Lighter layers of fume will give you that iridescent look.

[Jennifer Geldard]

Really wonderful info in this thread...
Thanks you guys.
Perhaps we can add this to the glass 101 thread?
And don't forget to rate it!

Oops!! (edited)
Is there the ability to rate threads anymore? I don't see it anywhere?

[jeremy bizzano]

Really wonderful info in this thread...
Thanks you guys.
Perhaps we can add this to the glass 101 thread?
And don't forget to rate it!

Oops!! (edited)
Is there the ability to rate threads anymore? I don't see it anywhere?


:) Yep, it's up there on the right under Prev Thread / Next Thread.

[Crayolahalls]

Yeah, that perfume bottle is primarily yellowish because I fumed it real heavy with silver. With a very light layer of silver fume they can look blue-ish. With gold fume the glass looks more pinkish orange. It all depends on how much fume is on it. Lighter layers of fume will give you that iridescent look.

I guess I am really most interested in how the patterns are formed in the piece with very striking differences in color. Your answers have been great, but I think I might be asking the wrong question. Take a look at the following link, it shows a tobacco pipe that has been made out of glass. It has very strikingly different colors in it. The colors are all side by side and slightly twirled around - but the colors remain vivid and "true". I can't understand how such stripes could be created from a random pattern of fumes. Before this glass is given a contrasting inside color (like black) you can barely see the color in it. It just looks like clear glass with the very SLIGHTEST hint of color. Again, I think this technique could be applied in many ways to make curios, vases, perfume bottles (like the awesome yellow one you did), ornaments half filled with black liquid, etc....

You know what, the site won't let me copy the exact link due to their store layout. Lets just say I found it at www.happypipes.com. I have copied this picture only for the purpose of asking this question and I have absolutely no intention of claiming it as my own or using it to make money....

[Crayolahalls]

Okay, that one actually shows multiple colors in one "line" traveling through the piece. This picture demonstrates a little better as to how some of these artists have very controlled contrasting colors in close quarters. Again, sorry its a pipe (don't mean to offend the sensitive) but I can't find any other artform that is using this technique so heavily.

[glassyeyed]

That looks to me like they laid down color on top of clear and dragged a stringer through to make the design. I could be wrong, of course.

[Molten Mike]

Well the lines of distinct color are from colored glass and the wispy is the fume, the fume covers the entire piece even the colored glass so it effects the entire piece, even the color, which is translucent most of the time and is just anither layer over or under the fume layer.

[Danteism]

Well the lines of distinct color are from colored glass and the wispy is the fume, the fume covers the entire piece even the colored glass so it effects the entire piece, even the color, which is translucent most of the time and is just anither layer over or under the fume layer.

Looks to me like medium silver fume, Northsar Cobalt (NS-01), and Northstar Caramel (NS-44), Raked with a slight twist.

As for learning about the color changing properties of boro glass rather than fume...

Milon Townsend produced a decent video entitled Introduction to Northstar Borocolour available from http://www.bluemoonpress.com or http://www.whitehouse-books.com

It's a bit short (only 30 minutes) but worth it if you don't have anybody locally to demo a few things for you in person.

Beyond that, the best authority on Northstar... is Northstar.

Visit http://www.northstarglass.com click on User Information then User Guide. This is also available in print from almost every major distributor that carries their color rod. Be sure to ask for it along with a color chart with your first order.

After you've read everything in the user guide click on Working our Color. After that, Read all of their back newsletters archived under the... (you guessed it) Newsletters link. ;) The newsletters are a virtual cornucopia of information on working their colors. Start with the first issue and work your way up. Many of the later issues build on knowledge introduced in the earlier ones. Be sure to give Northstar a call and ask to be on their mailing list so you can get the new issues as they come out. (it's free)

Lastly, for Glass Alchemy Christopher Rice aka Pan has a good article on working the GA colors archived right here at WetCanvas...

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/10410/246/

Chock-a-block with insights and tidbits on working their line.

I figure that should keep you busy for a bit eh? ;)

Wishing you nothing but success in your jouney into the ring of fire.

With Aloha,
Dante
--
Shifting Sands Studios
Maui, Hawaii

[Crayolahalls]

I want to say thank you to everyone. I should definitely do some more reading before asking anymore questions. The last few descriptions help me form a better idea of what is happening with this glass.

Dante, thanks for the great info. I am going to have to start taking notes! Those pics I borrowed are from a company that I believe is located out near you, in Hawaii.

Mike, thanks for hanging in there with me. I knew if I kept asking questions something would 'click' in my head.

Fred