Underpainting question

[Biki]

Since joining WC & watching some of you paint so beautifully using glazes, I have been trying to understand the proceess.

Little bits are starting to click in my head as to the benefits of this. The Gamblin article did a lot to help. ( thanks again Cham).

My being a faily new painter - and a better painter than a drawer - i tend to correct my mistakes as i paint. That is - i just paint over them. But of course, as i go along doing this, my paint is getting thicker & thicker.

My question is: Would this be a problem for me if I wanted to do a monotone underpainting & try my hand a glazing.?
Does it make any difference how thick your paint is.?

I think it would be a good exersise in seeing values for me at this stage.

[arlene]

Biki if you want to do classical painting, then the first step is to learn to draw well. There really is no substitute. I think any of those who've studied or are studying classical painting, will tell you the same.

You can do at home alot of that and post here. I'll hope that someone like Vince will give you a list of supplies to get you started. You can then take simple objects and make value studies of them.

As for the paint, i believe it does make a difference...when you start you want thin layers so the light actually reflects through all the layers. (am I making sense?) I think the Gamblin article does explain it better then i can, with the differences between the impressionists and the old masters.

so i stand by my advice...learn to draw first. Relax and really take your time in improving.

[Tony11214]

Hi,

Your underpainting must just be smooth, as smooth as you can make it. In fact, before you start glazing you may want to use some sand paper or steel wool on the underpainting.

I'd try to avoid making the underpainting thick if I could, but as long as its smooth you should be fine.

Keep it lean too.

And lastly, the underpainting must be very very light (high key)! Glazing eats light. If you're underpainting starts out looking like an average well lit B&W photo, it will turn out looking almost black after you glaze. Make the underpainting look like a washed out over exposed B&W picture and you should do well.

[SweetBabyJ]

NOW you tell me, Tony!!



*sigh*

Goes and gets another piece of canvas.....

[Biki]

Originally posted by arlene
Biki if you want to do classical painting, then the first step is to learn to draw well. There really is no substitute. I think any of those who've studied or are studying classical painting, will tell you the same..
Relax and really take your time in improving.

Indeed Arlene - I know you are right in this.
I draw as often as I can - but I must admit that I do find it a bit of a chore - whereas painting, I find an absolute joy.

TONY:
Thank you for your valuable advice. I understand you clearly. This was very helpful. I paint very lean & tentatively as i go - so I think i may succeed in this after a few practice runs.( here's hoping)

Wishing you a loving, joyous, & peaceful Christmas all.

biki

[Smileawhyl]

Hi Biki,

I don't post much in here, but I loved your question (and the answers I've see so far).

I started out drawing as a kid. I loved it. I started painting several years after drawing was ingrained as something you always did before you painted. Then when I got to college I found that no matter how well you thought you could paint, they put some pretty advanced prerequisites upon you, drawing-wise, before you could take a painting class. In my particular school, you had to have two basic courses, plus perspective (which you couldn't take without basics I and II), plus color theory. If art was your major, you couldn't approach a classical or abstract painting class before your junior year because the professors weren't going to entertain answering a question about or dealing with someone who didn't know the basics.

But thank goodness for Wet Canvas! It is great to have so much knowledge at your fingertips. This particular forum is so rich with information. I am so happy to see it come to life and offer a place for everyone interested in pursuing the pleasures known only to artists.

Happy holidays indeed!

[Biki]

Dear Smile awhile ( that's how i read your name .... and love it :) )

Oh - how I envy your formal training.
Indeed I would love to have youth on my side - and especially the benefits of Classical Vince's Attelier opportunities ( that would be a dream come true ( maybe next lifetime???? !!!!))

Silly of me I know - but it is so much easier to get the drift of painting techniques - than it is to get the drift of drawing techniques. I have no idea about drawing techniques. I am over 50 - been drawing for fun when on vacation most of my life ... with eraser in tow - then finally got pushed into painting by an angel of a friend - and found I could do with paint that i could NOT do with a pencil.

Pencil has a technique also - right? - who the heck is gonna teach me that? - I am more likely to hear of painting techniques than I am of drawing techniques. You know, I have all sorts of pencils & charcoals - and have never found anyone to teach me how to use them. When my friend pushed me into painting in oils, I found my medium. Let us just say that I DRAW in Oils - and i POTTER around in pencil.

Do Not get me wrong. I am NOT saying that to learn to draw is of no value. But is it not all about the medium that we choose to draw in?. ....Whether we draw in oil - or pencil???
Is it not all about "seeing" & reproducing what we see? - no matter what the medium.?

For those who have a lifetime ahead of them to study all meduims , I say "do it" - but for those of us who are late starters - let us just go with the flow & see where the compass points us.

Maybe it is just my nature to want to cut corners - and maybe this is impossible - but maybe i will have fun anyway.

:clap: :clap:

[Smileawhyl]

Biki, one of my favorite contemporary artists is a man who participates heavily in WetCanvas, Kelly Moore. Quite a different perspective from the classical approach.

Certainly if you want to paint with realism and a classic style, training could help, but I didn't mean anything derrogatory about the wish to do so without it. Experimenting is a great way to learn. And from the first time I came into Wet Canvas, so many people are willing to share their experiences. I've learned a lot, in some ways more, because now I am ready to learn it. I had to take Art History 3 times before I could sit still during it. All I wanted to do was paint! LOLOL I have a much deeper thirst now for the historic aspects of art.

For my eyes, Jackson Pollack was the one who turned the corner, where the paint was the message.

And youth is on my side . . . my rearview mirror side! :D

[arlene]

Originally posted by Biki
Pencil has a technique also - right? - who the heck is gonna teach me that? - I am more likely to hear of painting techniques than I am of drawing techniques. You know, I have all sorts of pencils & charcoals - and have never found anyone to teach me how to use them. When my friend pushed me into painting in oils, I found my medium. Let us just say that I DRAW in Oils - and i POTTER around in pencil.

I'm sure if there's a local college, community center, etc there will be drawing classes. you learn by reading everything you can about drawing, by attending classes, and by DRAWING EVERY SINGLE DAY.

You should be drawing in pencil, conte and charcoal and pottering around in oils, after you learn drawing. I'm sorry but it is a prerequisite to painting realism. I'm thrilled that you love paint, but every great master I've read about, drew first, and learned how first and wasn't allowed to pick up a brush till they did.

We have an excellent drawing forum here. Make use of it. Make use of articles written. Only when you learn drawing will you be comfortable with it. if you're not, doesn't that speak more of what you still need to learn?

You stated you're 50...big deal. Why can't you start now?

Do Not get me wrong. I am NOT saying that to learn to draw is of no value. But is it not all about the medium that we choose to draw in?. ....Whether we draw in oil - or pencil???
Is it not all about "seeing" & reproducing what we see? - no matter what the medium.?

No because paint requires more knowledge. It's like learning to read....You don't hand a 5 yr old War and Peace. You hand him the alphabet and do exercises with him.

As for your second question? Great artists don't reproduce what they see...they improve on what the eye sees, by deciding what should and shouldn't be in a painting or drawing.

For those who have a lifetime ahead of them to study all meduims , I say "do it" - but for those of us who are late starters - let us just go with the flow & see where the compass points us.

Maybe it is just my nature to want to cut corners - and maybe this is impossible - but maybe i will have fun anyway.


if all you're looking to do is have fun, go ahead...but if you're looking to become the best artist you can, then I strongly suggest you stop cutting corners.

[arlene]

Originally posted by Smileawhyl
Biki, one of my favorite contemporary artists is a man who participates heavily in WetCanvas, Kelly Moore. Quite a different perspective from the classical approach.


I'm a fan of Kelly's work too, and have told him privately, DON'T TAKE LESSONS.

but that's because kelly paints outsider art. That's the difference.

The paint is the medium in his work, and in most abstract/contemporary art (yes ours is contemporary too, but notice i grouped the other with abstract ;) )

But like Smile said, it's quite a different perspective from classical...with classical the message comes through in the drawing, composition, color, values, etc.

[Linoxyn]

Underpainting is about setting up values, making a preparatory surface for further colour, and getting the 'drawing' started or developed. Painting on top of this does not have to be only about glazing or solid body paint, it can be about many, many different things within the craft - including drawing. For any artist, whether 'classically' trained, college/university art, or a self learner no one artist can ever claim to fully understand all that goes on in the decisions that can be made or not made during the process of painting. In other words there are things that work and don't work - with very, very few concrete rules.

Biki you are right, paint is just another medium, like a piece of charcoal it can be used as equally as a drawing tool. Sure the results and approach are different though it's in the eyes and mind where drawing really occurs.

I agree that drawing is key to much of an artist's endevours, and that much of the learning can be done alone - the world is filled with things to draw :-) Classes I believe are only as good as the artist is ready to learn - where most will end up being 'exercises' that possibly one day may have to be unlearned... as I said above... art is like life, too complex to give it order - so enjoy :)

[Eugene Veszely]

Thanks Biki, glad to be a help :)

re drawing , have you had a look at "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards...it is a great book!!!....more about the process of seeing and how to help you see than technique though...

[Biki]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

Linoxyn - Master that you are - I so much appreciate your understanding & encouragement.

Cham, me aussie mate:
Yes love, I have read that book & gone thru the exercises. - it is brilliant.

All in all this Christmas day - artwise, I am feeling a little flat - loss of confidance - so many ideas & projects in my mind/heart.
I have learned so much on WC, but thinking maybe a little too much too soon for me to apply all at once.

Were to go from here? - maybe another workshop is in order to get me out of the glums? - but holiday time & all shuts down.:(

( sigh)

biki

[Eugene Veszely]

How about going to a nice quiet place on your own with a note book and writing down all the ideas you have....I find it helps quieten my mind and I dont feel so frustrated with all the thoughts swirling around in my head...once they are out it eases the pain!! LOL ;)

Then paint the one that speaks to you the most :)

[dcorc]

Originally posted by Biki
All in all this Christmas day - artwise, I am feeling a little flat - loss of confidance - so many ideas & projects in my mind/heart.
I have learned so much on WC, but thinking maybe a little too much too soon for me to apply all at once.

Were to go from here? - maybe another workshop is in order to get me out of the glums? - but holiday time & all shuts down.:(

( sigh)

biki

Hi Biki

Why do you need a workshop? Don't you have materials at home? Why not just pick up some paints or pencils and do something? - practice, practice, practice is the thing.

My being a faily new painter - and a better painter than a drawer - i tend to correct my mistakes as i paint. That is - i just paint over them. But of course, as i go along doing this, my paint is getting thicker & thicker.

My question is: Would this be a problem for me if I wanted to do a monotone underpainting & try my hand a glazing.?
Does it make any difference how thick your paint is.?


I'm don't think it matters how thick your underpainting is. But it does matter how uneven it is - and painted thickly, it's more likely to be uneven. Are you painting thickly enough to see impasto brushstrokes? If not, you should be OK

Increasingly, I'm getting the impression on this site that people aspire to go from a standing start in oils, to painting with the skill-level displayed by the likes of Linoxyn and Artpapa - and therefore worry about fine details of technique which are more appropriate to that sort of level of advanced painting, thinking that these approaches have to be incorporated in their own oilpaintings from the very outset.

We all know of Classical Vince's journey (and of him being the driving force for the setting up of this Classical forum), and he's right that this detailed painstaking approach IS the closest approximation we can get to the way artists were trained in previous centuries.

However, frankly, most of us here are keen hobbyists, not professionals, and are daunted by the level of dedication necessary to follow Classical Vince's path.

Most of us lead busy lives and lack time. It is important to do something giving some reward or return on our creativity.

If you feel that academic (or even detailed) drawing is a "chore" then you're not ready for it -when you reach the conclusion for yourself that in order to improve your art that drawing practice offers the best way forward, you will be as keen to do it as Classical Vince is (and that will be the right time for you) (Incidentally, I'm not quite there myself, as I still find it more fun to "wing it" and do corrections in paint as you described; but I'm turning back to drawing again now - and I've been painting in oils and acrylics off and on since I was in my mid-teens, and I'm now 43)

Merry Xmas to you!

Dave

[Rebecca]

Originally posted by Tony11214
Your underpainting must just be...as smooth you can make it. ...before you start glazing ...use some sand paper or steel wool on the underpainting.

Keep it lean too.


There are several traditions in classical painting. One uses flat painting, but glazing over texture is (if not more) common. You can easily see it in the drape painting of Boucher, or the rendering of dogs' fur in some Spanish paintings, among many others. Glazes over textured underpainting is seen a lot. Just look for it.

In the case of painting fur,
1) the texture was applied to follow the animal's anatomy and hair pattern, fundamentally creating bas relief. The paint was probably mostly white lead oil paint, which requires very little oil to saturate it, permitting stiff, lean mixtures. Other additives might have been included to enhance the handling/textural qualities. Another pigment, such as raw umber [or other] could be added to modify the value of the "sculpture" and enhance the curvature of the forms.
2) Once dry, a richly pigmented glaze was applied over the texture; then, in selected areas, the glaze covering the ridges was rubbed back. The glaze tends to settle into the depressions, giving depth; and then, lifting some from ridge tops of prominent forms compounds the illusion of mounds rising from great depths.

Many subjects can be treated this way, from landscape, to still life, to portrait. So long as the process supports the whole flow and meaning of the composition, it is legal territory for classical painting.

[arlene]

Originally posted by Biki
Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

Linoxyn - Master that you are - I so much appreciate your understanding & encouragement.

Cham, me aussie mate:
Yes love, I have read that book & gone thru the exercises. - it is brilliant.

All in all this Christmas day - artwise, I am feeling a little flat - loss of confidance - so many ideas & projects in my mind/heart.
I have learned so much on WC, but thinking maybe a little too much too soon for me to apply all at once.

Were to go from here? - maybe another workshop is in order to get me out of the glums? - but holiday time & all shuts down.:(

( sigh)

biki

biki i'm going to give you the same project i give in the cp forum...only difference is you do it in graphite...after graphite? how about colored pencil, and after that? how about doing it as a b/w oil...

that is to take an egg...place it on a white cloth, light it from one direction only and to draw what you see. try it...doesn't have to be large. Notice how the textures are different on the cloth as opposed to the egg...how will you render both?

[Biki]

dear arlene

keep bossing me around - i love it.:D

ok - let me think about it - i will put it on my list of things to do in the near future.

Today I spent drawing ( in between post Chrissie visitors & work & chores blah blah blah) - all because of you my friend. As it most definately does NOT belong on this classical forum, I will post it on the drawing forum - so i will met you there girl, and you can rip it to shreds if ya like.;)

It is called "Dad" - see ya there.

biki

[arlene]

Originally posted by Biki
dear arlene

keep bossing me around - i love it.:D

ok - let me think about it - i will put it on my list of things to do in the near future.

Today I spent drawing ( in between post Chrissie visitors & work & chores blah blah blah) - all because of you my friend. As it most definately does NOT belong on this classical forum, I will post it on the drawing forum - so i will met you there girl, and you can rip it to shreds if ya like.;)

It is called "Dad" - see ya there.

biki

post it here...I really don't go into drawing. :) and sorry, i don't rip...that's not constructive and i've never understood that way of critiquing...unless it's to make the critiquer feel superior.

[Termini.]

Hi Arlene, I have been reading in this thread that glazes have to be placed over a very smooth surface underpainting. I haven't alway done this, and I have studied Rembrandts at the museum, that were very thick, almost impasto, where he glazed over the thick underpainting, and wiped some away, in order to create the illusion of pores, etc. He is recorded as saying to someone who got up close to view his impasto technique that in effect the painting was to be looked at and not smelled. On the other hand, some of the Old Masters works were done with very very thin glazes, over a smooth surface. The Old Masters painted in many many ways, no two were exactly alike. DaVince threw out the order of blocking in colour, in order to establish the maximum contrasting values, that were established be the Flemish painters. Michaelangelo thought DaVinci foolish for using the new oil medium, instead of tempera. No way to study the technique of the Old Masters, without realizing that the techniques varied with every artist, to some degree. Much of what give the Old Masters works the characteristic look is the subdued earth colours they used, and very often the mud they started with.

Jim T

[Biki]

Originally posted by arlene


post it here...I really don't go into drawing. :)


No - I respect the classics too much. Just click.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155458

[Biki]

Thank you for all the great replies to my question.

These have given me more confidence to have a go at this.

I guess I won't really understand until I try it for myself..... and even then?

[PthaloBlueGirl]

I think you draw very well. Why do you beat yourself up so much?
:D

[Biki]

Originally posted by PthaloBlueGirl
I think you draw very well. Why do you beat yourself up so much?
:D

Hey Blue

I guess I am just keen to do better.

I kiss myself a lot too ( you should see all the lipstick marks on my mirror) :D

Thanks for the encouragement. You are always so kind to me.

Happy New Year

biki

[arlene]

Originally posted by Biki


Hey Blue

I guess I am just keen to do better.

I kiss myself a lot too ( you should see all the lipstick marks on my mirror) :D

Thanks for the encouragement. You are always so kind to me.

Happy New Year

biki

biki i've drawn everyday since i was 6...well almost everyday...and i'm 49...my point being it takes practice to get there...my drawing skills have improved the more i've done it.

you do have talent...don't beat yourself up. keep working at it...

[Biki]

Arlene, I just sent you a PM.

cheers

biki