modified underpainting technique

[Linda Ciallelo]

After trying virtually everything in the world, I think I finally have it here. This is one days work using burnt umber and white on pale olive green tinted lead primer. I used walnut oil and lead napthante , no solvent, for the medium. I also tried using no medium at all on other paintings. It worked fine but I did not like the matte look of the paint when finished. It just looks better to use a little oil with your paint. I know that the umber on this painting will be dry by tomorrow but the white will take a little longer, maybe another day. This ,for me,is the best way to start a painting.

[Biki]

well done Linda - this looks great.

I am not brave enough to try this myself yet, so I will be watching with interest as you progress.

you will keep us updated, won't you.?

[Linda Ciallelo]

Thanks Biki. Yes, I will wait for this to dry and then paint with color on top of it. I am not sure if I will use a coat of retouch varnish on top of this before I do the next layer.
Alexei Anotovs underpainting discussion reminded me why we do underpaintings. I guess it's because as the painting dries it sinks in , or becomes more transparent. So it needs a layer underneath to strengthen it.
I have listened to everyones advice and tried everything , and nothing produces a nicer looking painting than unrefined(Loriva) walnut oil. For awhile I tried it mixed with solvent, but that doesn't work as well . Just straight Loriva walnut oil with a small amount of liquid lead (from Doaks or Studio Products) is still the best medium I have found.
It's also important to use umber for the underpainting because it dries fast, and it's a good color.

[Linda Ciallelo]

here's another version of the same starting method that I'm experimenting with. This is an eexperiment using an old 16x20 panel that I covered with ochre a long time ago. I ordinarily start on plae olive green tinted lead primer. Anyway, this is a burnt umber underpainting covered with white paint(dryish and scumbled so that the detail will show through). I couldn't go over the face because I just did it and it was still wet. This will make a good base to glaze over I think.

[Tammy Marie]

Linda, that is absolutely darling, so touching. Please show us how you progress with that one too. Like the lemons too and looking forward to seeing the color.

Tam

[Biki]

what a lovely painting Linda.

gorgeous subject & so well done.

I am afraid i have to give underpainting a miss for the time being. It is just too hard for me to grasp right now.

Do you remember back when ? ... so much new information flooding in - you just have to set some of it aside for a while until you can catch up !!

sigh .... little by little.

i hope this goes in the Classical Art library tho - so i can come back to it when i am ready.

[arlene]

i think you have it now linda, and when we have a bit more, i'm sure llis, diane or myself can add it to the library.

[Linda Ciallelo]

I am having great difficulty posting on the classical forum. I have tried to post this image three times now and it tells me I am either not authorized or that the server is too busy. This was supposed to be the first image.

[Linda Ciallelo]

This is the third image. You need to look at the sleeves to see where I'm going with it.
Biki, the underpainting is the easiest part. You just draw the subject with paint , in one color, as you would whith a pencil or charcoal. If you want to get fancier then put in some white in the highlights. Then cover the entire thing with white, or not, depending on whether the light is direct or diffused. The lemons are in a direct light so the contrast is higher. the girl is in diffused light so the contrast is lower.

[PthaloBlueGirl]

Hi. This is neat looking. Have you ever tried black and white underpainting? How much of your underpainting shows through? Are you actually using the underpainting for more than just drawing what you want to paint on the canvas? What skin tones will you use? Do you apply the paint in a thin layer?

I am working on a painting where I first painted it all in shades of grey. I am no where near done but the painting does look more dimensional but I don't like the skin coloring as well as just painting over a drawing and not bothering with the underpainting. I also am confused about just how much paint to brush on. I get this sort of mottled look where you can see some of the underpainting and I like it, but then I don't because it reminds me too much of crayon drawing. I am using watered down acrylics.

Could you show us close ups of your painting when you get the colors on? Like really close to see the textures.

Thanks
:D

[Biki]

I have a question about this process.

I usually just start painting. sometimes I do a prelim drawing first, but not onto the canvas. I don't draw well enough first up. so I paint away & make adjustments as i go - just keep painting over until i get it right.

It seems to me, that with this method, you have to get it right pretty much in the under layer. Is that right.?
or would you make further adjustments as you add the colour.?

i would love to be a fly on the wall & watch some of you work.

[bjs0704]

I used walnut oil and lead napthante


Linda

Both paintings are wonderful. I am fairly new to using an underpainting, but I do really prefer it. It made the process of painting go better. I am going to have to try your combination.

By the way, what is lead napthante? How does it help the medium?

Thanks

Barb Solomon:cat:

[Linda Ciallelo]

Thanks for the kind words.
First of all lead napthante is a "drier" that helps strengthen your paint and make it dry quicker. Compared to cobalt drier , lead napthante is a slow drier. Walnut oil has the reputation of drying slowly, so I am adding the lead drier(also known as "liquid lead"). You can buy it at www.studioproducts.com .
I grid the canvas , then grid the photo, and paint directly witth one color for the underpainting. If it's not right , I wipe it off and do it again. I am painting on a lead ground , so the paint will wipe right off.
I have tried black. It does work well. I just recently abandoned the burnt umber and decided that I like using the ultra blue/ burnt sienna mix better. You all have to realize that I don't have the answers to many of your questions because I am still evaluating different approaches. I recently tried adding some copal varnish to my oil and really love what it does to the paint. I was also told that the pre-Raphaelites used copal and did an isolating layer using white and copal varnish, very similiar to what I have done here. It does correct relatively easily.
I will know more in a few days when I have worked on this and some other experiments a little bit more.
I saw Alexei Anotovs underpainting in the oils section and decided to try using a varnish mixture for the underpainting. That took me away from this one and in a different direction. But some of the things that I learned will be helpful with this painting.

[greymist]

wow Linda,

your work is outstanding... Thanks for all the great info.

Lisa

[budblues]

I love how the cloth is looking, Linda.
Am looking forward to seeing your progress!

Bud:cool:

[Alan Cross]

I love watching how you do this Linda.....keep the updates coming...
Alan :)

[Johnnie]

Hi Linda

Here is something for you to try. Comes off the video's I have on flemish style painting.

After the complete board is covered with the under-painting he says to take some linseed oil and rub it all over the painting. Very very thin. Stretch it out, use a neoprene makeup sponge etc. and just rub it into the painting. If you see little bubble then use an onion or an orange and rub that into the linseed oil. The acidity in the orange or onion does a PH modification then allows the linseed to penetrate. Do this all over the canvas.

Also try using Damar varnish as a medium. I put a bit in a cup and as I paint I put tip of brush in Damar then go into paint puddle and brush around abit to the consistency I like. You will find the right spot after a few tries. It don't take long. You a lot more experienced than me so you probably get in right away.

The scenario to the above it that you painting into linseed so no need to use linseed in the medium the Damar dries the paint which allows the paint to dry in a few days. I did a candle oil painting from the first video that took 2 days to dry with a black background. So not bad eh!

Lastly the really nice thing about using the linseed on the painting is when your painting if you don't like something it just rubs off. Not a hint of what you put there.

If you doing a layering technique which if your doing flemish style type of painting you would apply the linseed to every layer before continuing on with the painting. But remember very very thin.

Antov also suggest the linseed idea in his discussions.

Give it a try It is working for me.

Johnnie

[Linda Ciallelo]

Hi Johnnie, There are several reasons why I wouldn't use the methods you described. One is that linseed oil tends to yellow over time. There isn't any need to cover your entire painting with oil that will dry in a solid yellow layer. Especially if you are not painting into the entire painting on the same day, you will only have to "reoil" it at a later date to do the rest of the painting.
I have eliminated the use of Damar in my medium altogether, because damar is a varnish that is easily dissolved. Restorers routinely dissolve the outtermost varnish layer(Damar) on an old painting to clean it. If there is damar in your paint layer, it will also dissolve your paint layer.
That is why I am using copal varnish, which is harder, in my medium. And even then I use a very small amount added to my oil.
The all over oil covering that you referred to is commonly called "oiling out". It is a much safer procedure to just coat the painting lightly with a layer of spray copal retouch varnish before you start to paint, if you need to do that at all. Personally, with my new method, there is no need for spraying or oiling out.

I am using coapl retouch varnish as the medium for the underpainting . That would be 1 part copal concentrate, 7 parts turpentine, 1 part oil, and a small amount of liquid lead.
The second layer recipe is 1 part the previous retouch recipe added to 3 parts walnut oil and a small amount of liquid lead. When I varnish the painting I will use Damar varnish for the final varnish layer. That way the painting can be safely cleaned in the future. The damar can be removed, and the rest of the painting will remain intact. And hopefully it will not yellow as much as the paintings of people who routinely cover their entire canvas , multiple times, with oil or varnish.
This medium procedure leaves a lovely shiney paint surface that is easily adhered to, So there is no need for oiling out, or onion rubbing, in any way.

[Johnnie]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
This medium procedure leaves a lovely shiney paint surface that is easily adhered to, So there is no need for oiling out, or onion rubbing, in any way.

Hi

Well it sounds like you have it all together. You been at it a lot longer than I as I said back there. I am just following a video and had seen what you were doing and thought I would suggest similar.

I wrote down your recipe. It doesnt make sense to me now due to me being pretty new to oils but I sure educate myself and will try it for sure. Right now tho will stick to the video teachings. I can always adjust later. Im not selling anything. I do this as a hobby> What ever I do goes to family or garbage. lol

On the oiling out he does the whole panel as he paints straight thru. I dont do it all as I cant paint the whole thing in one go due to my physical probs so I had figured that one out.

Geez !! If I did that I would have a 1/2 inch of oil on there before I was done. lol ;)

Thanks for answering and the recipe. Appreciate it.

The recipe you stated are you puting a thin layer on canvas/panel before you start to paint, or using the tip of brush into the mix then go into glob of paint and mix then putting it on the canvas/panel. ??? tips / hints. ;)

Seasons greetings to you and your family.

Johnnie

[Linda Ciallelo]

Originally posted by Johnnie


Hi

Well it sounds like you have it all together. You been at it a lot longer than I as I said back there. I am just following a video and had seen what you were doing and thought I would suggest similar.

I wrote down your recipe. It doesnt make sense to me now due to me being pretty new to oils but I sure educate myself and will try it for sure. Right now tho will stick to the video teachings. I can always adjust later. Im not selling anything. I do this as a hobby> What ever I do goes to family or garbage. lol

On the oiling out he does the whole panel as he paints straight thru. I dont do it all as I cant paint the whole thing in one go due to my physical probs so I had figured that one out.

Geez !! If I did that I would have a 1/2 inch of oil on there before I was done. lol ;)

Thanks for answering and the recipe. Appreciate it.

The recipe you stated are you puting a thin layer on canvas/panel before you start to paint, or using the tip of brush into the mix then go into glob of paint and mix then putting it on the canvas/panel. ??? tips / hints. ;)

Seasons greetings to you and your family.

Johnnie
First of all I always paint on tinted lead primed canvas, so I have a good base for my next (first) layer of paint. In the first coat, or the underpainting, I am using just Studio Products Copal retouch varnish , as my medium. I add approximately 2ml of liquid lead to 40 ml. of the copal retouch varnish. In that first recipe I tried to duplicate Rob Howards retouch varnish by diluting his copal concentrate. Both ways work well. You can either buy it or make it. The copal retouch varnish comes with a handy sprayer and you can use it to spray the retouch as well as mixing it with your paint.
I just dip the tip of my brush and brush out some on my glass pallet. Then dip my brush in the paint and mix it over the area on the pallet that has tthe medium on it from my brush. I use ultramarine blue mixed with burnt sienna for my monochromatic underpainting. So for the first layer it's just ultra blue, burnt sienna, and copal retouch with a little liquid lead added.
When that is dry I use the other medium that is the same thing but with 3 parts unrefined walnut oil added, and a little more liquid lead. I just dip the tip of the brush and spread a little on the glass pallet, then mix my paint , with the brush, over the place where I spread the medium. If it's too dry, I dip the brush again, but always spread the medium on the glass first with the brush, and then add paint to it with the brush. That way I won't get a big glob of medium on my canvas or in my paint. I only want a little.

[Johnnie]

Hi Linda

Well thanks for the play by play. It has educated me to the differences of mediums. I found this somewhere. I thing I will continue doing as the videos suggest do to me being ignorant of the goings on of mediums and such. I have no designs on selling anything. I just paint for a hobby. If family want them its theirs so to speak.

I will however try your ideas. Looks good to me especially after reading the following that I found somewhere on the web. Wish I could remember where/who so I could give them/him/her their due!

Tnx Johnnie
Here is a little diddy I picked up. I am going to try your ideas as I said as these also over time.

=================
Copal-Drying Oil Medium.

Copal media are ideal for producing very hard and durable, although brittle, paint films that can be applied without softening or redissolving previous paint layers. This allows for an egg-tempera like effect where one color can be painted over another after it has dried without the two colors mixing.

COPAL-OIL MEDIUM (A TYPICAL RECIPE)

1 part copal varnish (see Copal Varnish)
1 part genuine turpentine
1 part linseed oil
(Stand oil may be substituted. The drying oil reduces the brittleness of the copal resin.)

The drying rate is approximately two hours if the copal varnish used contains driers; if it does not contain driers, the drying time will be approximately 1 ½ days. (Please note that this means workably dry, not totally dry.)

================
Dammar-Drying Oil Medium.

The difference between this medium and that of the copal-drying oil medium is that the dammar will soften and partially redissolve when successive layers of paint mixed with this medium are applied. This allows the two paint films to interlock and to appear less isolated from each other. Dammar also yellows and darkens much less than copal. It is also less brittle. Dammar is not as hard a resin as copal and is therefore less durable, but not sufficiently so to cause concern. The following recipe also has better leveling properties than a copal medium.

DAMAR-DRYING OIL MEDIUM

1 part dammar varnish (Dammar heavy gum solution may be substituted for extra thick body.)
1 part stand oil 1 to 5 parts rectified turpentine (This proportion may also be varied for desired fat or lean quality.)
(15 drops of cobalt drier may be added to every 8 ounces of medium to speed drying.)
The drying time is between 2 and 3 days (without the drier).

================
Stand Oil Venice Turpentine Medium.

The combination of stand oil and Venice turpentine will give a thick, resinous medium with enamel like leveling properties. Glazes with this medium will be exceptionally clear and brilliant.

STAND OIL VENICE TURPENTINE MEDIUM

1 part stand oil
3 parts Venice turpentine
1 to 3 parts turpentine
(Vary turpentine according to fat over lean principles.)

It is necessary to warm the stand oil and Venice turpentine first to make mixing them easier.
Paint films using the formula can often be worked over in 1 to 2 days.

Greater brilliance as well as a shorter time between application of paint films can be had by adding some dammar heavy gum solution (this is a concentrated form, which can be bought or made).

[Linda Ciallelo]

Johnnie, I have tried all that stuff that you are quoting. I am telling you what works for me, not what works for others.Everyone has their own opinion. I do "not" endorse the recipes that you have posted here, even though they use copal varnish. The recipes you have posted are one persons opinion, just as my recipes are one persons opinion. I have been selling art for forty years. I am serious about what I say.
How do you know that this person you are quoting knows more about it than I do. You asked my opinion and I gave it to you. Take it or leave it.

[Linda Ciallelo]

Here is the painting I am working on today. I am using 1 part copal concentrate to 40 parts other things, mostly oil, so the amount of brittleness here will be miniscule. I am also painting on a solid ground because my canvas is applied to a masonite panel. So the canvas won't bend. If you like this style of painting then listen to what I say, if not then don't.

[Johnnie]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo

How do you know that this person you are quoting knows more about it than I do. You asked my opinion and I gave it to you. Take it or leave it.

I never said they did. I was asking you about them seeing you know so much.

All I have done is ask you a few questions , repeatedly say you are well more experienced than I and thankyou quite a few times and now you crap on me. What for? Gold leaf still pissin you off lol :)

SORRY TO RUFFLE YOUR PANTIES.

Wont happen again

What an attitude , geez.. I was just trying to learn from a pro like yourself. NOT tell you anything.

Yes I am learned enough to know how to take it or leave it.

Amazing how you keep bringing up how EXPERIENCED you are. Thats great. Thats why I was asking..

You need to go to CHARM school you could use it.

Johnnie

[Linda Ciallelo]

Sorry Johnnie, if I offended you, but people continuely argue about this stuff. Everyone has a different opinion and they are entitled to it. All I can state is what works for me. I am sorry if I flew off the handle, but I couldn't see why you were posting this, accept to encourage an argument. There are thousands of similiar things on the web. Anyone can make a video. The only way to know what will work is to try things. There are so many variables that there is no right way, or there are many right ways. The experts disagree constantly. You could spend your whole life studying this and never find an absolute.
There are people who have very strong personalities that insist that their way is the only right way. They lead many people astray for years, and it takes a very long time before they find their way back to where they started. Thats why I'm angry. You can't trust the things that you read and see on videos. Anyone can make a video or write a book. After you have read a few books and looked at a number of videos and tried what is suggested, you will see what I mean.
Maybe I just have no patience for this anymore. Now I know why Milt doesn't post. It's the same arguments over and over.You just run out of energy after awhile.

[Johnnie]

Originally posted by Linda Ciallelo
Maybe I just have no patience for this anymore. Now I know why Milt doesn't post. It's the same arguments over and over.You just run out of energy after awhile.

Well yes if its a steady arguement about this subject I agree with you. One could lose patience.

But at the outset I told you I am new to Oils. Thats why I was asking. I only the video way of doing things and mainly wondering what the differences and results were/are. Guess I should have asked the questions differently.

The later thing was the same thing. Wondering I you knew what makes one work and what makes another not work..

I said also that is was IGNORANT to all this stuf. Thats why I was asking . Nothing more nothing less.

Yes it seems that medium topic is like Cooks Recipes lol.. Each cook figures their cake tastes the best.. Thats a never ending one too..lol

Do you care to talk about BAKING??? lol. Just kidding.

Well, good enough for me I guess. I would get pissed to if hounded about something. But I really didnt think I was hounding due to me saying I knew nothing about it.

Live and learn huh!!

Below is a link to a posting I made of my FIRST oil painting that I have every painted. The video was lesson #1. As you can see it has helped me to learn. Thats all I want. Nothing more than that.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154341

Below is one of the video lessons paintings when complete that David did in the video. Really nice I think. Im just throwing these in here for you to see. For me its like having a teacher in the house. Im not experienced enough to know if the teaching is good bad right or wrong. I can only go by what I see. I see this painting and like it and would like to get good enough as an artist to get even close to that.

Thats all. Nothing more nothing less. Just to kill time.

I also do like your paintings here that you posted. Also the ones on your webpage I have visited. Very nice!!

Johnnie

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Dec-2003/21575-Image1.jpg

[SweetBabyJ]

I think, it isn't simply "what is right/what is wrong" but what works FOR YOU- the individual. Perhaps you need to take what you have learned thus far, and see if it works for YOU. If, after enough practice you know this is as good as you get with this particular medium, you find it isn't good enough, then research and try another.

The only absolutes- and even they aren't chiseled in stone anywhere- are whether you want a slow or fast drying time, and how much body you wish the paint to have. Mediums- no matter how "good" they are, do not replace practice and skill.




Which is why I'm still practicing.... lol

[Linda Ciallelo]

I tried venice turpentine with stand oil and it felt "sticky" to me. I like being able to move the paint around after I put it on the canvas. When I looked at Alexei Anotovs demo of the rose, I could see tthat he is applying the paint in very small lines, and then moves the wet paint around to where he wants it. This works better for me than trying to get it perfect the first time, and reapplying it if it isn't right. I also need fast drying if I am to sell these at the pace that I have been doing. I need tthe income.
It is good to have your paint wet and movable for about a day and then dry and immovable after that. It gives you enough time to go back and soften edges and adjust tthings. most of the medium recipes that I tried felt sticky when I applied them and jjust got stickier as the day went by. There was no way that I could move the paint around on the canvas after applying it. Alexeis demo keyed me to the idea that his medium is allowing him to move the paint around. BUt he's using Damar which isn't very hard and will be dissolved when his painting is cleaned. I am using copal which is harder, and yes brittle, but I'm not using much, and I'm mixing it with my old stand by, unrefined walnut oil, which dries flexible, and painting on a solid ground. The small amount of copal in my oil also makes the painting shiney.

[Tammy Marie]

Hi Linda,

Your plums are coming along just lovely!

I took your advice from another post and ordered the lead drier, and I ordered the copal concentrate too. They arrived right after Christmas but then my son and I got the flu and we are just getting over it now. I did sneak in a little painting time though and I really want to thank you for suggesting that lead drier, it works really well. I admit I was running out of places to put all this wet stuff and getting really frustrated waiting for layers to dry.

I didn't know what to do with the copal concentrate (before I saw your post) so I mixed it with spike, 5 spike:1 copal concentrate and added a little lead, no oil yet, but will try to modify it per your recipe or just use it up and them start from scratch again. I did get to glaze one layer on some studies I am doing (all of the same subject, apples) and I tried the copal mix and liked it a lot too. Thank you for suggesting that too. It glazed so much better than adding just oil, which is what I was doing, and I really like the way it looks now that it is dry.

On your plums, when you glaze, do you avoid the highlights to preserve the white or do you just glaze right over them and scumble them back on later, or maybe something else? They really are quite lovely.

Linda, I really appreciate you sharing your techniques and materials so openly and freely. It is a tremendous help to me and many others that love the look of your work. I also appreciate you sharing your sound techincal reasoning behind your decisions.

Thanks Again,
Tammy

[Linda Ciallelo]

Tammy I am still experimenting myself with the copal concentrate. I have been asking questions on the Cowdisley forum about it and have ordered some different forms of copal from some other sources(Doaks).
As I understand it now, there is copal concentrate(copal mixed with oil), copal retouch varnish(copal greatly thinned with turps), and copal picture varnish(thicker copal and turps combo). I found the copal concentrate to be a bit more oily than the retouch varnish. I added the turpentine as prescribed to the concentrate but the mixture seemed more oily than when I added the actual retouch varnish to my walnut oil. I guess it's because the concentrate has more oil in it than the retouch.
I am still researching exact proportions of everything.
One thing that I have been warned against, is using the copal straight for anything more than the underpainting. Copal is very "inflexible". It is ok for the underpainting, but for other layers you should be sure to add an equal amount of oil of some kind for flexibility. You don't want your layers of paint to crack.
I will go check something on another forum and be back in a minute with some further information.

Ok, According to Rob Howard, the maker of the copal concentrate, one must add three parts turpentine to one part concentrate in order to get the same concentration of copal as in the retouch varnish. I did mine by color and it didn't come out exactly right. I had thinned it too much. The concentrate must have other things in it that the retouch doesn't have , like oil.
The best mixture that I have found so far is one part Studio Products copal "retouch" varnish(not from the concentrate) mixed with one part unrefined walnut oil and a small amount of liquid lead.

I was not successful in duplicating the copal retouch by diluting the copal concentrate. It was close but more oily.

best mixture to date is:
20ml. original copal retouch varnish
20 ml. unrefined walnut oil(cold pressed)
2 ml. liquid lead.

[Linda Ciallelo]

I forgot to answer your other question...... I do a detailed underpainting in one color(mixture of colors, burnt sienna and ultra blue). In this underpainting I leave all the light areas empty so that the ground is showing through. You can see that if you look at the first photo that I posted. Some of the plums have only the underpainting. I use the paint just as one would a pencil if you were drawing it. I don't use any white until the second layer. I use a paper towel to wipe out areas that are too dark. It's almost like painting with watercolor because the paint is so thin and transparent.

[Linda Ciallelo]

I forgot, I posted that first painting in still lifes , here it is.oops wrong one .

[Linda Ciallelo]

lets try one more tiime, well even this one has the white in it, but trust me, I left the light areas unpainted, before I put the white in. LOL

[Tammy Marie]

Thanks Linda, for all the information and the picture. I'll add equal amounts of oil in the future.