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pedlars pen
04-22-2019, 03:55 PM
Those recent couple of sketches with a "Pentel touch brush pen" were a pleasant diversion & a surpising (to me at least ! - der... !):confused: realisation that if I valued the flaring & tapered subtleties of line quality that there was another way to get them :eek:
However the Pentel felt tip type of brushpen had worn out it's fine tip in only a couple of drawings so even though it was still full of ink it had totally lost it's .... well touch !
I've had the ubiquitous "Pentel pocket brush pen " for years , many people have them & do excellent work with them but I have never been even close to seeing even a glimmer of hope in the marks that I ever made with it. I had to try it one more time ,nope NOTHING of any value at all ! even after a week of trying.:crying:
Still inspired but frustrated I thought I'd have a good search on the net for a brushpen that might suit me when I found Russ Stuttlers E-book on brushpen drawing.http://stutler.cc/other/sketchbook/sketchbook_c_01.html OK ,I'll give it one more try :crossfingers:
The "Kuretake Sumi brush pen no.8 " took a couple of weeks to arrive and after inserting the cartridge & leaving it 10 minutes for the ink to get though, on first use this was very obviously a very different beast to the pentel pocket brush :eek: "God this is gorgeous " I said after just a couple of tryout lines !
It can make a really thin hair line yet fill in really large spaces like a fully loaded sable . PLUS - I could graduate from that extremely fine hair line to that fully loaded watercolour brush in a perfectly CONTROLLED manner & get any mark in between at will.
After making the first few test marks I grabbed a book of the shelf & drew the page that it chanced to open on ! Unfortunately on horrible pound shop paper which bled like crazy :( (brush pen lesson 1 for me !)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/22-Apr-2019/1267204-_New_brushpen_experiment.jpg
This bird is about 6"long head to tail & know nothing about brush drawing but I can already see some potential in it ! Here & there as I made some of the lines I could even feel the exquisitely delicate nuance struggling to get out !
I don't know where this is going or even if it will go anywhere ! but am certainly pleased to rekindle my enthusiasm for art.:wink2:
Mike

Scene Chaser
04-22-2019, 05:50 PM
This is nice, Mike. I like the feathers and the textures of the feet clutching the tree branch are especially good. Nice balance of the head and face, too.
Bill

VanAndrew
04-22-2019, 06:50 PM
Nice work getting a handle on a brush pen! I have a pair of kuretakes and agree, they are excellent tools.

If you want a manual and encyclopedia of brush mark-making, consider tracking down a copy of The Mustard Seed Garden manual. It covers brush drawing from the Chinese perspective and has many many helpful illustrations and examples of marks in context.

pedlars pen
04-22-2019, 06:53 PM
Thanks Bill, I like texture & it is sort of "my thing" but I was first attracted to using a brush to get into line, yet on this first one I have just done my usual style + heavy blacks. I'll see where it goes but I'll have to focus on line more I think. That's if it is possible for an old dog to learn new tricks ? :lol:
Cheers Mike

laika
04-23-2019, 12:36 AM
Nice one, Mike! The drawing is well done and I like the weight and contrast of the ink. And thanks for the info and link included in your post!

pedlars pen
04-23-2019, 05:40 AM
Thanks Lamar ,Yes it is perhaps the contrast of the heavy darks which I find appealing.
Mike

pedlars pen
04-23-2019, 06:06 AM
Nice work getting a handle on a brush pen! I have a pair of kuretakes and agree, they are excellent tools.

If you want a manual and encyclopedia of brush mark-making, consider tracking down a copy of The Mustard Seed Garden manual. It covers brush drawing from the Chinese perspective and has many many helpful illustrations and examples of marks in context.
Thanks :) , yes I never stood a chance of making any headway into brush work without the right one .
The mustard seed garden was very interesting ,I studied the pictures here - https://archive.org/details/brooklynmuseum-o17617-mustard-seed-garden-a-chinese I could keenly feel it's 17th century date as being pre-impressionist ! But what direction is the light coming from ? I kept thinking. I had thought that it would have made much more use of individual line quality too & was surprised at the extensive use of texture too, even though they hardly used it to depict the fall of light.
For myself personally - I am pleased to be the inheritor of the entirety of art to date & clumsily attempt to take it ahead in my totally inadequate way.:lol:
Cheers Mike

Payne's Grey
04-23-2019, 07:36 AM
Interesting reviews on this pen. I ran across this which might be of interest to you, Mike. I know you like the waterproof Platinum Carbon ink. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Z3er4jRlo

pedlars pen
04-23-2019, 08:23 AM
Ah thanks John,it appears that a lot of folk like to use the platinum carbon though this brush pen, of course it would be essential if you were considering adding colour.
Being colour blind I never use colour so any carbon ink can come in but especially the non-waterproof ones like: Higgins eternal or Pelikan india fount because I can take wash from the line nicely with them.
Don't you fancy a go with one of these no.8's ?
The BIG difference to usual pen drawing is that you don't get any feedback from the pen tip, so that is an additional thing to think about if your technique relies on "blind contour" sort of drawing like mine does. Especially if like me, you don't like like to use pencil lines underneath.
Mike

Payne's Grey
04-23-2019, 09:00 AM
Mike, I do fancy a go with the Kuretake now that I see it has some feedback to the pressure on the tip. I have a Pentel brush pen and assumed all of them were alike. There's no "feel" to the Pentel and the only use I've found with it is filling in large areas of black. I now have the Kuretake on my buy list.

pedlars pen
04-23-2019, 10:16 AM
Mike, I do fancy a go with the Kuretake now that I see it has some feedback to the pressure on the tip. I have a Pentel brush pen and assumed all of them were alike. There's no "feel" to the Pentel and the only use I've found with it is filling in large areas of black. I now have the Kuretake on my buy list.

I think saying it has "Feel" to it might be overstating the case but I can confirm it is 100% more controllable than the Pentel :thumbsup:.
Mike

graphicali
05-18-2019, 11:52 AM
Nice work!

VanAndrew
05-18-2019, 03:03 PM
Thanks :) , yes I never stood a chance of making any headway into brush work without the right one .
The mustard seed garden was very interesting ,I studied the pictures here - https://archive.org/details/brooklynmuseum-o17617-mustard-seed-garden-a-chinese I could keenly feel it's 17th century date as being pre-impressionist ! But what direction is the light coming from ? I kept thinking. I had thought that it would have made much more use of individual line quality too & was surprised at the extensive use of texture too, even though they hardly used it to depict the fall of light.
For myself personally - I am pleased to be the inheritor of the entirety of art to date & clumsily attempt to take it ahead in my totally inadequate way.:lol:
Cheers Mike
Hah yes, I approached that book a similar way. I didn't really want to draw in that style, but found the lists and demonstrations of the various brush strokes - and groups of brush strokes! - very helpful, kind of a like a map of the brush stroke terrain. :thumbsup:

rosta
05-19-2019, 07:42 AM
Nice work Mike. It looks like you've mastered the brush pen, it looks like a versatile tool.

Looking forward to seeing the next piece of work.

Charlie's Mum
05-19-2019, 05:18 PM
Interesting thread!

Nice drawing Mike - and I really was surprised to see your name and 'brush' together!:lol:
Lovely variation in mark and thickness though - I can certainly see the attraction!

pedlars pen
05-19-2019, 06:26 PM
Thanks Maureen :) Well I don't think the name "pedlars brush" has quite the same the same ring about it ! :lol:
Mike

Charlie's Mum
05-20-2019, 11:56 AM
Absolutely right Mike!

Green Ink
05-21-2019, 08:15 AM
That looks really nice. I'm trying to visualise what this brush pen is that you used, is there a picture of it/link?
At the moment I'm starting to use fine liners again.

pedlars pen
05-21-2019, 07:45 PM
That looks really nice. I'm trying to visualise what this brush pen is that you used, is there a picture of it/link?
At the moment I'm starting to use fine liners again.
Hi Green Ink, thanks it was a "Kuretake Sumi Brush pen No 8,http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-May-2019/1267204-PEN.jpghttp://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-May-2019/1267204-_pen_tip.jpg
You have to buy this direct from Amazon in the UK from Japan & it takes about 3 weeks to get here ! The tip is um..... well like a brush (with nylon hairs) with a fountain pen with cartridge ink.Whilst being cheap it is very high quality.
However if you are new to brush pens I advise you research their potential, what kind of mark they make & decide if they may be your sort of thing. Here is a US. pen selling website that might give an insight into this world - www.jetpens.com/blog/the-best-brush-pens-for-drawing-comics/pt/879
So you can see from this the whole thing about brush pens is that they give an expressive ,lively & varying quality of line & it is not limited to comics either !
They are a tool that takes a bit of practice though & I find myself agreeing with the majority of brush pen artists that it is best to start with a felt tip type of brush pen. They vary enormously in their performance & longevity,I really like the "Pentel touch brush pen" most sensitive, controllable & long lived ! - https://www.cultpens.com/i/q/PN27518/pentel-touch-brush-sign-pen-ses15 but Rymans sell the "Uni-pin fine line brush pen" & they are pretty nice too.
Understand that with a felt tip brush pen to get the very finest line you hold it up vertically at 12'o' clock & to get a really thick line you hold it at 10 past the hour angle.Now starting with that basic premise you can vary the thickness of your lines by altering the pressure you put on the tip.
But do not expect to go from a hair thin line to a 1/8" wide line using pressure alone - that will just dull & wear out the tip . Brush pens with a real brush CAN do that but take the most sensitive handling.You can learn with a felt trip brush & then move on to them OR many people stay with the felt tip type for ever as they lend them selves so much better to direct sketching without pencil under drawing.
For people used to pens as we know them it is quite a leap ,instead of the drawing process being about precision Suddenly! :eek: it is all about looseness. Brush pens are very expressive, you CAN work with precision in parts but it is best (like a good horse) to give them their head & let them be themselves a bit (let those happy accidents happen !) - at least that's what I have found.
Cheers Mike

SeanInDublin
05-21-2019, 10:19 PM
I found that they were a real challenge to use at first.

The best results I have got from mine were one minute life drawing poses.

They can certainly produce strong images very quickly.

I keep a Kuretake No 13 with Platinum Carbon ink in my Life Drawing bag.

Definitely worth trying one....

Green Ink
05-22-2019, 03:07 AM
Thanks Mike, I could always borrow one of my daughter's to play with...
They sound good for shading large areas.

Green Ink
05-22-2019, 03:16 AM
Forgot to add, I'm in England so a lot of those pens might not be available here. We do have a Ryman's here though

pedlars pen
05-22-2019, 05:22 AM
Forgot to add, I'm in England so a lot of those pens might not be available here. We do have a Ryman's here though Nar ya alreet mate I'm in NE. England too :thumbsup: :lol:
Also I should just add that the felt tip type like to be used on very smooth paper to prevent premature wear, bristol board for more serious work or that shiny , glossy brochure copy paper for sketching. Those with a real brush tip are ok. on most paper.
Mike

Green Ink
05-22-2019, 09:39 AM
I was actually thinking of just using a black promarker for filling in large areas. My daughter gave me that idea.

pedlars pen
05-22-2019, 01:37 PM
I was actually thinking of just using a black promarker for filling in large areas. My daughter gave me that idea. Fine, go ahead with that :), it is the variations in the quality of line that attracts some pen people but it is a very different ball game with it's own set of problems.
For myself I probably won't continue with it, I was in indeed just "playing with brush drawing"
Mike

Green Ink
05-22-2019, 05:30 PM
Fine, go ahead with that :), it is the variations in the quality of line that attracts some pen people but it is a very different ball game with it's own set of problems.
For myself I probably won't continue with it, I was in indeed just "playing with brush drawing"
Mike
The thing is, if I'm sketching an object that has black shadow areas I could use heavy markers. But if the object also has say, dark green areas next to the black I'm not sure how to shade so you can differentiate. As in my sketch in the Monthly sketching challenge (the secateurs)

pedlars pen
05-22-2019, 07:32 PM
The thing is, if I'm sketching an object that has black shadow areas I could use heavy markers. But if the object also has say, dark green areas next to the black I'm not sure how to shade so you can differentiate. As in my sketch in the Monthly sketching challenge (the secateurs)

When you look at a subject , look at how many tones it has got ? You really only have to differentiate between adjoining tones mostly.
Tone - various tones are created by the paper colour, hatching or cross hatching, texture patterns, solid black ink or wash/different washes.
Tones can be used to depict both local colour & shadow too in the same drawing- so if there is a bit of dark green then that will have to be differentiated from any adjoining tone, in this case the shadow then the dark green would be heavyish cross hatching thus making the shadow solid black (all shadows would now be solid black ;))
So it is a matter of working out you palette range really when first observing the subject. The truth is that most P&I folk only ever have 2 or 3 tones between black & white & manage fine with them alone.
It is very good practice to test out different tones on scrap copy paper ,it may be hatching , crosshatching or textually achieved tones because that way you will know what you actually have in your tool bag.
Mike

Green Ink
05-23-2019, 04:15 AM
When you look at a subject , look at how many tones it has got ? You really only have to differentiate between adjoining tones mostly.
Tone - various tones are created by the paper colour, hatching or cross hatching, texture patterns, solid black ink or wash/different washes.
Tones can be used to depict both local colour & shadow too in the same drawing- so if there is a bit of dark green then that will have to be differentiated from any adjoining tone, in this case the shadow then the dark green would be heavyish cross hatching thus making the shadow solid black (all shadows would now be solid black ;))
So it is a matter of working out you palette range really when first observing the subject. The truth is that most P&I folk only ever have 2 or 3 tones between black & white & manage fine with them alone.
It is very good practice to test out different tones on scrap copy paper ,it may be hatching , crosshatching or textually achieved tones because that way you will know what you actually have in your tool bag.
Mike


Thanks Mike. I'm experimenting with using dots close together for light shading and broads strokes for heavier shading, trying not to hit the outline. Not really used crosshatch much. I just need to experiment. I grew up drawing with pencil, but I find I want something bolder, more graphic now

Green Ink
05-23-2019, 10:28 AM
Well I looked for art pens while we were out shopping today, no luck on the brush pens. I found some that you fill with watercolours but I left them on the shelf.
In the end I just got a couple of black Sharpies in a pack that my partner spotted. That'll do. I might look for a Zebra disposable online though...

Like these

https://www.jetpens.com/Zebra-Disposable-Brush-Pens-3-Pen-Bundle/pd/21275

Green Ink
05-23-2019, 12:56 PM
I just did a bit of doodling, using dots and cross harching, like this.
Large dark area filled in with Sharpie, fine liner for the rest.

https://i.imgur.com/Okkog4W.jpg

pedlars pen
05-23-2019, 01:27 PM
Well I looked for art pens while we were out shopping today, no luck on the brush pens. I found some that you fill with watercolours but I left them on the shelf.
In the end I just got a couple of black Sharpies in a pack that my partner spotted. That'll do. I might look for a Zebra disposable online though...

Like these

https://www.jetpens.com/Zebra-Disposable-Brush-Pens-3-Pen-Bundle/pd/21275
OK. give your wallet to a trusted friend & look at these ! - https://www.cultpens.com/i/q/PN27518/pentel-touch-brush-sign-pen-ses This is a very sensitive yet very fine if you wish brush pen & very controllable too - gorgeous & cheap, my favourite !
This are the Zebra pens -www.cultpens.com/i/q/ZB27154/zebra-fude-brush-pen The blue extra-fine one is OK. but doesn't have much variation of line width - Nice to have though.
The grey one is a "fine"with a gentle touch it is indeed a fine hair line thickness but a little bit of pressure & a slightly flatter angle & it will flare into a thick line beautifully.You can use this one just to fill in areas or to make exquisitely nuanced line drawings using it's variable thickness of line. This is my joint favorite. The black is too thick for smaller drawings.

So that is brush pens but really with what you've said today & looking at your sketches I'm pretty sure that this is not what you want or need right now :eek:.
As someone who obviously already has developed the skill of drawing in pencil but now wants to try pen & ink drawing, brush pens are not the way to go. Many standard bread & butter techniques are not even possible to do with a brush pen ! I think it would be a much more natural progression to use a standard thin lined pen techniques first ,you may never want to use a brush pen ever, it is a backwater off the mainstream.
Many folk nowadays start with fine liners, these uni pins are equal to or better than most https://www.cultpens.com/i/q/UN50212/uni-pin-drawing-pen-black-set-of-5-assorted-sizes These will cover you for any P&I technique you might want to try out. They work best on a shiny brochure type of copy paper, well certainly it must be smooth & non absorbent.
I personally really like to start people off a fountain pen because it gives the wet line feeling & they just seem eager to draw somehow ! (No I'm not mad :lol:) they just feel like all genuine pens do & should feel.
You can get a Platinum preppie cheaply & they last for years & are very good quality.https://www.cultpens.com/i/q/PT41858/platinum-preppy-fountain-pen-02-extra-fine this is the extra fine you might also like a fine too.
With pens like any or all of these above you can properly explore the world of pen & ink but you will need to know where to explore......... contrary to what a lot of people imagine the internet is not a rich seam of gold ! much more like a massive mountain range with occasional hidden gems !
One such seam is on you tube by Alphonse Dunn , for instance here are his videos on crosshatching www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cross+hatching+alphonse+dunn (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cross+hatching+alphonse+dunn)

Have fun !
Mike

Green Ink
05-23-2019, 02:19 PM
Thanks for the links and your help
:thumbsup:

Many folk nowadays start with fine liners, these uni pins are equal to or better than most https://www.cultpens.com/i/q/UN50212...assorted-sizes These will cover you for any P&I technique you might want to try out.
Those are the ones I have.