Venetian Technique

[Mario]

Will wonders never cease, I am becoming interested in the Venetian Technique to try with a portrait..........it just looks like it would be a kick to give it a shot and see what kind of new effects I may discover and add to my tookit... this is against what I've been taught (opaque, ala Prima) but I have a desire to just try something different for the moment....I'm thinking of doing the begining underpaintings in acrylic and the subsequent layers in Oil...anyway, here is the thread which got me interested..comments welcome..

http://www.asopa.com/publications/1999spring/venetiantechnique.htm

[canvasjockey]

You're amongst fellow newbies here! I'm learning some very new and different techiniques involviing glazes and underpaintings and am amazed at what effects can be acheived!!

Have at it and have fun!! Oh, and make sure to post what you're working on so we can enjoy the journey with you!

Carole

[Biki]

Thanks for posting the link Mario. I love Virgil Elliot's work.

I have bookmarked it along with all the other great links I keep finding.

I think I will spend a month in study mode before I tackle anything else.

I love this site - so much info to guide - i hardly know where to start.!!

cheers

biki

[Matt Sammekull]

- Good luck Mario! And I would love standing behind you on this project, but photographs would also work. ;)

//Meatball

[pampe]

PLEASE PLEASE post progress pictures

[Mario]

OK OK, I'll do it......but it will take some time, This will be new for me and so I expect abject failure at my first attempt....however, it may ease the way for those who follow...LoL
I'll get started in a couple of days and I'll post progress (?) pics here.. (if they can be called that)....heh heh:evil: :angel:

[pampe]

:clap: a huge Philly cheer! :clap:

[ArtistOz]

here are some links to the 7 layer flemish technique

http://www.1art.com/tips.htm

http://artpapa.com/oil-painting-lesson-1/index.html

[Mario]

Hi folks...it that 'the migrant woman' your's pampe?? lots of good paint on your Ebay page..way to go!
I was figuring that the underpainting technique would let me see in slow motion what was becoming of my portraits and would give me many shots at getting a good likeness, etc.. some qualities that I haven't been concerned with , before now.
I have to admit that reading further in this 'Venetian Technique' has scared me...may the gods help me,.. it is a daunting task! I really want to try what I had described above but how far am I willing to go for the Venetian technique....I don't know? I'm intending now to read and re read these technique descriptions and see if I can come up with a short cut version that will not seem so overwhelming...:( :confused:

[Miss Vicky]

Greetings Mario
Thank you for this thread, I am very interested in this technique, also thank you and ArtistOz for the links. Hope you post soon.
Blessings
Miss Vicky:D

[LorraineB]

Re: Virgil Elliot's explanation of the history of Venetian painting--

I'd like to see his research into the additives to the oil paints he mentions in his article used by early Venetian painters. Maybe I misread the article, but his assertion that there was beeswax added to the oil paint is suspect mainly in that type of mixture tends to make the paintings very susceptible to damage during cleaning and also easily dissolved in very mild solvents, regardless of age. The surface of paintings mixed with wax also remain somewhat soft and retain dust and dirt like you would not believe. A varnish can be applied, but removing it is next to impossible.

Paintings made with oil paint/wax are indeed matte in appearance. In my experience, the tradition of early oil painters was to varnish heavily, whether done on panel or on canvas. And I understand that the varnishes used were usually a *very* shiny oil/resin mixture. On Elizabethan panel oil paintings, this mixture was applied *hot* and rubbed into the surface by hand. I would very much like to know where Mr. Elliot gets his information on this "glare" problem. If anyone knows, I'd love to read the research.

I also found his explanation of 'short' and 'long' paint very confusing and somewhat misleading. I believe what he is referring to the difference between something like stand oil and plain linseed oil. Stand oil is a polymerized oil which is made by heating the oil over 300 degrees C in a closed container. This allows the polymer chains to cross-link without oxidation. The heating causes the molecules of the linseed oil to unite to form larger molecules which are less susceptible to changes that produce yellowing and general degradation. The dried film is more durable than straight linseed oil. This increases the viscosity and when used as a paint medium, flattens out and finds it's own level. Vermeer was know to use stand oil and I recommend it. If you want dramatic brush strokes and impasto in your paint, however, it's not the ideal oil.

I don't mean to be bashing Mr. Elliot. He looks like a talented artist. However, I wish he'd included a bibliography with his article. I think everyone should take this information with a grain of salt.

Lorraine

[Biki]

doh !!!

what i learned as the Venetian technique. was finding the mid tone, - high tone & low tone & blending them together.

seems like there is more to it than that.
!!

so much to learn - so little time.!!



biki

[Virgil Elliott]

Lorraine,

You're correct about wax not being present in the old Venetian paintings, according to analyses done by conservation scientists at the National Gallery, in London. I wrote that article quite a long time ago, and much of it was based on things I'd read from older sources, including Eastlake, who, it now seems, was mistaken about a number of things. The article was an excerpt from a book I began writing in 1986, which has not yet been published, and which has been corrected many times since that draft. That is the danger in publishing technical information, which is subject to being superseded any time new information comes to light. What the scientists are finding in these Venetian paintings is linseed oil and/or walnut oil binding the pigments. No wax, no resins, no polymerized oils. You are right that wax renders oil paint films susceptible to a number of undesirable consequences. You are also quite right in advising people to regard what they read with a grain of salt, i.e., a critical mind. It reminds me of Mark Twain's remark that one should be leery of health advice printed in a newspaper, as one could die of a misprint.

There will indeed be a bibliography included in my book. Sometimes when I've included references in articles I've written, they were omitted by the magazine who published the article. The National Gallery (London) Technical Bulletins are one good source of scientific information.

What is your source of the information on Vermeer using stand oil?


Virgil Elliott

Re: Virgil Elliot's explanation of the history of Venetian painting--

I'd like to see his research into the additives to the oil paints he mentions in his article used by early Venetian painters. Maybe I misread the article, but his assertion that there was beeswax added to the oil paint is suspect mainly in that type of mixture tends to make the paintings very susceptible to damage during cleaning and also easily dissolved in very mild solvents, regardless of age. The surface of paintings mixed with wax also remain somewhat soft and retain dust and dirt like you would not believe. A varnish can be applied, but removing it is next to impossible.

Paintings made with oil paint/wax are indeed matte in appearance. In my experience, the tradition of early oil painters was to varnish heavily, whether done on panel or on canvas. And I understand that the varnishes used were usually a *very* shiny oil/resin mixture. On Elizabethan panel oil paintings, this mixture was applied *hot* and rubbed into the surface by hand. I would very much like to know where Mr. Elliot gets his information on this "glare" problem. If anyone knows, I'd love to read the research.

I also found his explanation of 'short' and 'long' paint very confusing and somewhat misleading. I believe what he is referring to the difference between something like stand oil and plain linseed oil. Stand oil is a polymerized oil which is made by heating the oil over 300 degrees C in a closed container. This allows the polymer chains to cross-link without oxidation. The heating causes the molecules of the linseed oil to unite to form larger molecules which are less susceptible to changes that produce yellowing and general degradation. The dried film is more durable than straight linseed oil. This increases the viscosity and when used as a paint medium, flattens out and finds it's own level. Vermeer was know to use stand oil and I recommend it. If you want dramatic brush strokes and impasto in your paint, however, it's not the ideal oil.

I don't mean to be bashing Mr. Elliot. He looks like a talented artist. However, I wish he'd included a bibliography with his article. I think everyone should take this information with a grain of salt.

Lorraine

[Biki]

Hello Virgil

So honoured to have you here posting on Wet Canvas :clap: :clap:

Your work is a total inspiration to me.

If there is anywhere you can point us to hearing more of the process within which you work, please unashamedly do so.

bowing & scraping, sincerely :) , biki

[Virgil Elliott]

Hello Virgil

So honoured to have you here posting on Wet Canvas :clap: :clap:

Your work is a total inspiration to me.

If there is anywhere you can point us to hearing more of the process within which you work, please unashamedly do so.

bowing & scraping, sincerely :) , biki

Biki,

Thank you for the kind words. I hope to prove worthy of them.

Regarding processes, I don't adhere to any one process in particular, but come up with a plan of action for each individual picture before I begin, according to what method I feel would best convey whatever it is I want that picture to convey. Each painting is unique, and deserves its own approach.

As general procedure information, though, here are a few things: I do make use of mannequins when I need them, for posing clothing, and I hire models, and set things up in my studio, but also stray from what I see when my sense of aesthetics guides me to improve on what is actually there, and I make things up, working out of my head. I do a lot of planning before I touch the big canvas, so I have a very good idea where I'm going when I begin to work on a painting. I recently sculpted a head to use as a model for a painting and several drawings, for example. However, no matter how thoroughly I might have planned things, if a better idea comes to me while the process is underway, I will always go with the better idea.

My general advice to anyone newer to the field than I am is to work as hard and as long as it takes to master drawing before becoming concerned with painting, and not to expect to be able to produce quality results simply by following the painting process of someone whose work is impressive. The mental process is more important than the mechanical processes. Mastery of drawing is the key that opens the first door. It sets the mental processes in motion that lead to better art.

Virgil Elliott

[Classical Vince]

Mastery of drawing is the key that opens the first door. It sets the mental processes in motion that lead to better art.


Heard and understood! Really nice to see you in the forum Virgil. I too know of your work and have read the article awhile back.

We do hope to maybe get a peek at your latest work...hint hint ;) Great to see you here.

-vince

[arlene]

Biki,
My general advice to anyone newer to the field than I am is to work as hard and as long as it takes to master drawing before becoming concerned with painting, and not to expect to be able to produce quality results simply by following the painting process of someone whose work is impressive. The mental process is more important than the mechanical processes. Mastery of drawing is the key that opens the first door. It sets the mental processes in motion that lead to better art.

Virgil Elliott


gee biki where have i heard that before? ;)

Virgil, I hope you'll be a regular here. I've been singing that song for so many years now, i think people tune me out.

[Miss Vicky]

Greetings All
(My general advice to anyone newer to the field than I am is to work as hard and as long as it takes to master drawing before becoming concerned with painting, and not to expect to be able to produce quality results simply by following the painting process of someone whose work is impressive. The mental process is more important than the mechanical processes. Mastery of drawing is the key that opens the first door. It sets the mental processes in motion that lead to better art.)

That's good advice, but I can't seem to draw a lick with a pencil :o , but put a brush in my hand and I'm good to go, ready to rock and roll :evil:
But all in all I study other's artwork and techniques, it's all well and good for me. I'll be learning and experimenting till the day I pass. :angel: :music:
And on the subject of mediums which scares and entrances me. I'll turn that fear into my power. The only way for me is to do it, I try to get as much info as possible before I commit myself and my pocket :(
For me after the experimentations, is what suits my taste and I'm still working on that :rolleyes:
Blessings
Miss Vicky :D