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beachlifeu
03-17-2019, 10:50 AM
Hi, my question is, if a professional artist did the same painting, one in Griffin Alkyds and one in artist grade oil would there be a noticeable difference that other artists would be able to tell and would Alkyds be inferior.

I ask because i use Alkyds and i do a lot of paintings with bright colours in it like sunsets etc and just wondered if my colours would be more vibrant if i used artist grade oils. I know the cads are hues for Alkyds and artist oils use a more pure expensive pigment so would that make it more vibrant etc

Anything else you pro's can add would be much appreciated.

Gigalot
03-17-2019, 11:16 AM
There are some differences in handling properties between alkyds and oils. After drying they looks equal. Alkyd can develop brittleness and yellowing over time. Oils finally can be better in yellowing and less brittle after decades or so.

contumacious
03-17-2019, 11:55 AM
Hi, my question is, if a professional artist did the same painting, one in Griffin Alkyds and one in artist grade oil would there be a noticeable difference that other artists would be able to tell and would Alkyds be inferior.

Probably not. Especially if they varnish it after. It is difficult to tell the difference between a painting done in acrylics and oils, once a unifying varnish has been applied, particularly with varnishes like glossy Gamvar. The same would apply to one done with alkyds vs oils. If you stick with single pigment colors whenever you can whether artist or student grade, your mixes will be more controllable, predictable and can be more intense, particularly with higher pigment load paints. Gamblin for example, with their 1980s line, uses the same pigments as their Artists grade, just a bit less of it. Some kind of neutral filler usually has to be added to keep the same consistency when the pigment load is reduced.

I ask because i use Alkyds and i do a lot of paintings with bright colours in it like sunsets etc and just wondered if my colours would be more vibrant if i used artist grade oils. I know the cads are hues for Alkyds and artist oils use a more pure expensive pigment so would that make it more vibrant etc

Not all alkyds use hues, many of them use the same pigments as are used in their professional / artists quality oils.

Anything else you pro's can add would be much appreciated.


You can turn any Pro / Artist grade oil paint into a professional grade Alkyd by just adding some alkyd medium to the paint. That is what I do. I bought a full range of W&N Griffin alkyds back in the '80s, but never replaced them when they were used up. I no longer buy any Alkyd paints other than some whites. I use Alkyd mediums when needed to get the Alkyd properties. That way I am not limited by the smaller color offerings in some of the Alkyd lines and I don't need two different sets of paint.

I was surprised to see that Gamblin doesn't list their Alkyds as "Artist Grade", but they aren't described as a lower grade either. One aspect of Gamblin alkyds that I find appealing is their claim that all the colors dry to an even matte sheen. I have not used any of them other than their white, but would like to do a painting with them to see the final results.

Gamblin Fast Matte Alkyds
https://gamblincolors.com/oil-painting/color/fastmatte-alkyd-oil-colors/

These two brands are presented as Pro or Artists colors, not lower grade.

CAS Alkyd Pro
https://www.dickblick.com/products/cas-alkydpro-fast-drying-alkyd-oil-colors/

Davinci Professional Artists Alkyd Colors
https://www.dickblick.com/products/da-vinci-professional-fast-dry-alkyds/

It seems like the W&N line is the only one that appears to be a lower than Artist / Pro alkyd line that I could find.
Winsor & Newton Griffin Alkyds
http://www.winsornewton.com/na/shop/oil-colour/griffin-fast-drying-oil-colour
The impression I get from W&N is that their Griffin line is on a par with their non pro Winton line.

There are some differences in handling properties between alkyds and oils. After drying they looks equal. Alkyd can develop brittleness and yellowing over time. Oils finally can be better in yellowing and less brittle after decades or so.

I find just the opposite as far as yellowing goes. Alkyds = less increased yellowing over time / Regular Oils more. I do recall reading that Alkyds can be less flexible once cured than pure linseed oil. I don't paint on canvas so it hasn't been a problem for me.

Some alkyds look very different than traditional oils. An example would be the Gamblin line. All the colors in the range tend to dry to a more even matte sheen vs regular oils which are all over the map as far as glossy vs matte depending on the pigment used.

Dcam
03-17-2019, 12:17 PM
I've exhibited oils, alkyds, and Acrylics.
Usually the judges or gallery owners have to ask what medium I used.
So, as far as "Looks". Very hard to tell.

beachlifeu
03-17-2019, 12:32 PM
"You can turn any Pro / Artist grade oil paint into a professional grade Alkyd by just adding some alkyd medium to the paint."

Do you mean you add a Alkyd medium so normal oils dry quicker like Alkyds? If so what medium and how much because when i use liquin it make the paint transparent.

I am new to painting so my reply might sound stupid lol

Brian Firth
03-17-2019, 04:03 PM
No, as much as you can't tell if the artists used the most expensive Old Holland or Vasari paints, or used Winton. The finished alkyd painting and oil paintings are indistinguishable. In my experience the alkyds maintains color better than oils and yellow less. Other brands of alkyds, like CAS, offer genuine cadmiums and much higher pigment loading than Griffin, although they handle a little differently than traditional oils, and act more like a unique medium of their own.

beachlifeu
03-17-2019, 04:49 PM
I am really surprised that the end results between Alkyds, traditional oils and more expensive oils are indistinguishable.

When doing skies with Alkyds, one problem is that it gets a bit tacky before i have finished which i guess is the main reason people choose oils for their extra open time.

When using oils and applying it thinly how long would i expect for it to be finger dry? On the winsor and newton website it states around 5 days for most of the colours, obviously certain factors are in place like thickness etc.

Brian Firth
03-17-2019, 11:24 PM
I am really surprised that the end results between Alkyds, traditional oils and more expensive oils are indistinguishable.

When doing skies with Alkyds, one problem is that it gets a bit tacky before i have finished which i guess is the main reason people choose oils for their extra open time.

When using oils and applying it thinly how long would i expect for it to be finger dry? On the winsor and newton website it states around 5 days for most of the colours, obviously certain factors are in place like thickness etc.

What I mean by indistinguishable is that dried alkyd paint looks just like dried oil paint regardless of brand or "quality". It really comes down to the working of the artist and their techniques and style for how the finished painting looks.

Alkyds do dry much faster and they become tacky well before they dry as the solvent evaporates. You do have to plan more and work efficiently to compensate for the quicker drying than you would with traditional oils. However, even some acrylic artists can do flawless blending and gradients in skies and acrylics dry much faster, so it is possible. You could use a slower drying oil medium with alkyd paints and they will not tack up as fast or just mix traditional oils with them.

If you are looking for a more leisurely pace and working time then maybe traditional oils will more suit your style. The whole point of alkyds are that they are a fast drying oil. I'd say 5 days is a good average drying time for oils, some faster and some slower.

Brian Firth
03-17-2019, 11:25 PM
oops double post

contumacious
03-18-2019, 09:44 AM
"You can turn any Pro / Artist grade oil paint into a professional grade Alkyd by just adding some alkyd medium to the paint."

Do you mean you add a Alkyd medium so normal oils dry quicker like Alkyds? If so what medium and how much because when i use liquin it make the paint transparent.

I am new to painting so my reply might sound stupid lol

If it is too transparent, try adding less Alkyd. It doesn't take much to speed up the drying time of regular oils. Anything over 20% is probably too much. I like to use a dropper bottle so I can control the amount easily and will sometimes only add a few drops from the bottle to a paint pile about an inch across and 1/8" tall. Do some testing and see what amounts work for you.


When doing skies with Alkyds, one problem is that it gets a bit tacky before i have finished which i guess is the main reason people choose oils for their extra open time.


Try doing your skies with regular oils plus a small amount of alkyd medium added. Testing will help you determine how much to add. Another direction you could take if you don't have regular oils is to add some regular oil to your alkyds. I have had success adding varied amounts of Walnut Oil to my alkyds to slow the drying / increase the open time. There are even slower drying oils you can use for this such as Poppy Seed.

beachlifeu
03-18-2019, 04:38 PM
Thanks all, i will be putting these tips and advice into practice for sure. :)