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View Full Version : Where does neo megilp go in layers?


plnelson
03-16-2019, 02:16 AM
I recently bought some Neo Megilp to play with and I like the silky texture and flow that it gives my paint so I thought I would try it in an actual painting. I paint in layers where my bottom layer is very lean and I add more oil on the higher layers. Consistent with fat over lean principles is Neo Megilp only meant to be on the top glaze layer or can I use it in other places? On the other hand it seems to dry faster than my regular paint and that suggests maybe I could use it on the bottom layer. So what's the scoop on this stuff?

Thanks in advance.

contumacious
03-16-2019, 11:10 AM
Alkyd mediums are to be treated as fat materials. Neo Megilp is an Alkyd, so it is a fat medium. You can use it at the beginning, middle or end of the layering process, just don't put a more lean layer over the top of it.

Remember that drying speed does not necessarily have anything to do with whether a medium or paint is fat or lean. Alkyds are fat and they dry faster. Paint with lots of solvent added also dries faster but it is now lean because the ratio of oil to pigment has been reduced by the solvent. Fat over lean is all about more flexible / stronger layers over weaker layers, not slow vs fast drying. You don't want to put a lean layer over a fat layer, or it can crack. Of course if EVERY layer is 100% cured/dry you can paint whatever you want over it - fat or lean - but that can take many months, even years to happen.

Quote from Jackson's art supply site:

Gamblin painting mediums (Galkyd, Galkyd Lite, Galkyd Slow Dry, Galkyd Gel & Neo Megilp) are made with alkyd resin- a highly polymerized soy oil, and Gamsol- a mild, slow-evaporating odourless mineral spirit.

WFMartin
03-16-2019, 07:47 PM
Neo Megilp is an alkyd medium. The characteristics of alkyd mediums seem to be an anomaly, because they dry fast, similar to a lean medium, yet they remain flexible for a long time, similar to a fat medium. Selecting the most appropriate layer in which to employ them can be a mystery, especially when you wish to interleave them with more traditional layers of paint/medium.

I wouldn't know just what to recommend as an appropriate material to paint over them, in terms of a traditional oil medium. I use a traditional sort of medium that promotes the same sort of "silky" effect you seem to enjoy, and I never have to concern myself with the fat-over-lean principle being compromised a bit.

Those who claim that an alkyd medium is "a fat medium" tend to merely repeat the words they have gleaned from the manufacturers who sell that material. Many of those painters are not privy to the exact ingredients that are contained with an alkyd medium, chiefly because alkyd manufacturers have only chosen to indicate on the label that it "contains petroleum distillates", leaving the remaining ingredients to remain undisclosed. That truly does not indicate in a very accurate manner whether the medium should be considered "fat" or "lean", in terms of oil content.:)

DAK723
03-16-2019, 10:54 PM
Alkyd mediums are - as Bill mentions - a bit different due to their fast drying nature. In various email conversations over the years with both Gamblin and Winsor Newton, they have stated that the best way to use an alkyd medium, is to use roughly the same amount in each layer. What you want to avoid is using very different amounts in each layer.

I didn't ask about Neo Megilp specifically, so it might be a good idea to ask Gamblin directly. They are always really good about answering user questions.

Don

sidbledsoe
03-17-2019, 08:45 AM
Not all alkyd mediums dry fast, Neo Meglip dries slower than Galkyd or Liquin, and Gamblin also makes a slow drying alkyd.
And alkyd mediums are certainly not the only mediums that dry fast, nor the only paints that dry fast themselves, such as burnt umber, so that does not make them any sort of "anomaly". Selecting the most appropriate way to interleave all types of paint and mediums is the subject of 1000's of threads here by confused members.
Paint makers don't disclose all the ingredients that they add to simple ordinary paints, some driers are added, especially for slow drying oils like safflower, and many other additives are used and not reported.
The white oil paint you use often contains kaolin that is not reported, yet Liquin does list it as one ingredient.

The stamp out all alkyd non using haters that come into every alkyd thread to attack, just ignore the very same characteristics of their own materials.


I have used Neo Megilp for many layered paintings and there has been no issue at all, it is one of the best mediums I have ever used.
I just follow the three rules, no matter what medium and no matter what kind of paint I use, fat over lean, slower drying over faster drying, thicker over thinner.
Neo Megilp would be used no differently than a stand oil medium that has a cobalt drier added to it. In the lower layers you use less, paint thinner, and let it dry before layering over.
No fat medium or oily medium is any different. You shouldn't use them to excess in lower, leaner layers. The only thing that can thin lower layers to a very lean state is a solvent, and not any type of fat medium.

Dcam
03-17-2019, 08:58 AM
Sid: can NM be used as a glazing medium?
and have you tried it as such?

sidbledsoe
03-17-2019, 09:02 AM
Yes, Derek, it is a fine glazing medium that I have used for such.

Dcam
03-17-2019, 09:08 AM
Thanks Sid....someday I'll be able to pronounce it.

contumacious
03-17-2019, 11:09 AM
In various email conversations over the years with both Gamblin and Winsor Newton, they have stated that the best way to use an alkyd medium, is to use roughly the same amount in each layer. What you want to avoid is using very different amounts in each layer.
Don
I wanted to include what Don has touched on above (bolded in the quote) in my original post but it was past the edit time frame. That is basically how I use it. Changing mediums and/or the amount used by a wide range in multiple layers is not a great idea if you can avoid it.

Neo Megilp is one of my favorites and it does not bring with it the problems that traditional versions of Maroger can bring. Though it starts out darker or more yellow than some refined Walnut or Linseed oils, what you see when you lay it down is more likely what you will see 5 or 10 years from now which is not true with non alkyd mediums which usually turn more yellow and darker over time. I have some pieces that were done with just linseed oil and solvent that are horribly yellow in the whites and light tints after less than 2 years. I have never had any cracking issues when using Neo Megilp. For me it dries slightly faster than a 50/50 mix of linseed oil and Gamsol with some colors, quite a bit faster with slow drying colors than the linseed / Gamsol which is another reason I like to use it.

Not all alkyd mediums dry fast, Neo Meglip dries slower than Galkyd or Liquin, and Gamblin also makes a slow drying alkyd.
And alkyd mediums are certainly not the only mediums that dry fast, nor the only paints that dry fast themselves, such as burnt umber, so that does not make them any sort of "anomaly". Selecting the most appropriate way to interleave all types of paint and mediums is the subject of 1000's of threads here by confused members.
Paint makers don't disclose all the ingredients that they add to simple ordinary paints, some driers are added, especially for slow drying oils like safflower, and many other additives are used and not reported.
The white oil paint you use often contains kaolin that is not reported, yet Liquin does list it as one ingredient.

The stamp out all alkyd non using haters that come into every alkyd thread to attack, just ignore the very same characteristics of their own materials.

I have used Neo Megilp for many layered paintings and there has been no issue at all, it is one of the best mediums I have ever used.
I just follow the three rules, no matter what medium and no matter what kind of paint I use, fat over lean, slower drying over faster drying, thicker over thinner.
Neo Megilp would be used no differently than a stand oil medium that has a cobalt drier added to it. In the lower layers you use less, paint thinner, and let it dry before layering over.
No fat medium or oily medium is any different. You shouldn't use them to excess in lower, leaner layers. The only thing that can thin lower layers to a very lean state is a solvent, and not any type of fat medium.


Some good points above Sid! I can see that my original comment could be misleading about slower drying vs faster drying. My intention was to say that drying speed has nothing to do with fat over lean, but what was said about not using faster drying mediums over slower drying ones is as important to remember and follow and I didn't make that clear.

I wonder if the kaolin in some of the offerings of Liquin is what makes it so milky looking?

I think it is good to keep the 3 rules you use together when discussing any one of them. Fat over lean seems to get the most attention, but they all three need to be followed together. I will try to remember to do that in any future posts of mine.

(formatting added)


Fat over lean
Slower drying over faster drying
Thicker over thinner.




Thanks Sid....someday I'll be able to pronounce it.

Every person I have heard say Neo Megilp out loud, except my wife who just refuses to say the last word at all, switches the I and the L ending up with

Neo Meglip -- emphasis on the GLIP

Dcam
03-17-2019, 11:34 AM
Contu.....just don't be "GLIB". :eek:

contumacious
03-17-2019, 12:02 PM
Contu.....just don't be "GLIB". :eek:

I would never........

True story, my wife really dislikes the spelling and the sound of Neo Megilp. I put some in a syringe for her plein air kit. The hand written text on the label that originally was Neo Megilp, is now crossed out and replaced with "Puppies and Rainbows".

Dcam
03-17-2019, 12:13 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

WFMartin
03-17-2019, 05:41 PM
I'd just like to point out that while we painters who are less enthusiastic with alkyd materials do often make comments regarding the characteristics of alkyd materials, it is rather unkind, and unfair to label us as "bashers", "attackers", and even "haters" of alkyd products, when all we are attempting to do is answer questions that someone has asked regarding the material .

I don't feel that I have been grossly negligent, or incorrect in my presentation of the basic characteristics of alkyd materials--and certainly not any more so that those who have expressed an aversion to Oil of Spike Lavender, for example.

I have certainly not expressed any more "hatred" for the characteristics of alkyd material than at least one person has expressed his "hatred" for Oil of Spike on this forum.

When I mention that the makers of alkyd mediums have chosen to list only that it contains petroleum distillates on the label, rather than to disclose its other ingredients, I would gladly stand corrected if there is evidence that proves otherwise.

Even the Original Poster claimed that Neo Megilp was drying faster than he appreciated, and understandably so, since alkyds are quite well known for that characteristic. That does not represent some sort of "hatred" for alkyds, it is merely a fact.

I'm a bit perplexed at being labeled a "hater" of alkyd products, when in fact, I am merely indicating some of their characteristics. Most alkyds have an objectionable smell, and many new users of them point that out, when they ask questions regarding their use. That does not mean that they "hate" alkyd mediums,.....it merely means that they have an objectionable smell.

When I answer questions, and in doing so, tend to confirm the questioner's observation that alkyds smell, or dry fast, it doesn't necessarily mean that I "hate" alkyd materials; it just means that I am agreeing with the questioner regarding their smell, or fast drying.

I will gladly stand corrected if someone will point out to me where I have tried to deceive, lie, or misrepresent alkyd materials in my statements and comments to others. I do not believe it is a mis-statement to mention that "alkyds dry fast like lean mediums, but remain flexible like fat mediums." If that is NOT one of their characteristics, then please let me know.

Gigalot
03-18-2019, 04:14 AM
Alkyd paint formulation:

"we have this formula for alkyd gloss paints:
alkyd 190 kg ]
titanium W 130 kg ]
talc 200 kg ] mixing 15 minute
white spirit 70 kg ]"

They use Ca and Co siccatives, 18 parts of Ca + 10 parts of Co per 380 parts of Alkyd

WFMartin
03-19-2019, 12:19 AM
Alkyd paint formulation:

"we have this formula for alkyd gloss paints:
alkyd 190 kg ]
titanium W 130 kg ]
talc 200 kg ] mixing 15 minute
white spirit 70 kg ]"

They use Ca and Co siccatives, 18 parts of Ca + 10 parts of Co per 380 parts of Alkyd

On whose brand of paint, or medium can I find the above specified on a label? And, what is the oil content? How about the kind of oil, or the percentage of it?

Gigalot
03-19-2019, 03:54 AM
On whose brand of paint, or medium can I find the above specified on a label? And, what is the oil content? How about the kind of oil, or the percentage of it?
I don't know exact brand name, it was just a question on chemical forum.
As for Alkyd, it was generally made from esterification of soybean oil and pentaerytritol to form pentaerythritol ester of soy fatty acids instead of glycerol esters. Pentaerythritol will replace glycerol in soybean oil structure. Then pentaerythritol ester react with phthalic diacid to form final alkyd molecular structure. Finally, alkyd contains about 70% 0f soy fatty acids and 30% synthetics (pentaerythritol and phthalic diacid) in each molecule. Paint manufacturers use Alkyd made from large chemical companies. They don't know exact percentage of fatty acids or phthalic acids because they bought ready-made substance.

Delofasht
03-19-2019, 10:04 AM
Always made me wonder if it pronounced “meh-gil-pah”, “me-geh-ilp”, or “meg-ilp” (with the short almost unheard ‘p’). :lol:

Good notes on the usage of alkyds in this thread, very helpful way to explain things.

AnnieA
03-19-2019, 01:48 PM
Thanks Sid....someday I'll be able to pronounce it.
:lol: Oh, me too! I will always pronounce it "megLIP" because that's how I read it the first time! And besides, it sounds better!

Thanks to everyone responding here as the fatness of alkyds for layers has always been confusing.

Gigalot
03-19-2019, 08:39 PM
:lol: Oh, me too! I will always pronounce it "megLIP" because that's how I read it the first time! And besides, it sounds better!

Thanks to everyone responding here as the fatness of alkyds for layers has always been confusing.
Acrylic is more confusing.