PDA

View Full Version : bit of handholding needed, gessoes


ronsu18
03-04-2019, 06:51 AM
hi!
puzzling together existing resources for an experiment. practically sure what to do, but...

arches huile 300g oil canvas paper is for oils and oil pastels, not for acrylics, according to their site.
https://www.arches-papers.com/our-papers/arches-huile-oil-paper/

i'm painting with acrylic mixed with tubed watercolor.
i should be able to gesso this paper with liquitex professional clear gesso with good results, right? i've read all the discussions on oil on acrylic but this is the wrong way round! found nothing on watermedia on acrylic gesso on oil gesso.

the other related substances i have is water resistant PVAc, talens gesso primer 1001 for oil and acrylic and L&B acrylic binder.
my main concern is wildly fluctuating temperatures where cold is cold!, causing damage way too soon. can i get this to last at all?

that sounds so complicated and farfetched in text, but empty pockets rule; i want the acreage of the 130cm wide roll of paper; almost instantly workable dry surfaces; i've one tube of acrylic.

anyways, thanks for stopping by, happy painting! :wave:

Harold Roth
03-04-2019, 09:09 AM
You can gesso regular watercolor paper. Lots of people do that. You can paint on that with oil or acrylic. You don't have to buy special oil-painting paper.

Here's Mitchell Albala's take on gessoing on paper. He's a well known landscape painter, mostly oils:
https://blog.mitchalbala.com/how-to-gesso-paper/

ronsu18
03-04-2019, 09:43 AM
thank you! Mitch Albala is a great teacher, his writing is so accessible and inspiring, plus the abstraction appeals to me.

thing is, i already have the roll of oil paper. existing watercolor papers are A3 at the largest.. plan is to go four to six times that size. my budget for the next 18 months is for dealing with the aftermath of a chimney fire and a cracked chimney so no art supplies. well almost none. at least nothing pricey. for now. definitely not several pricey ones for quite some time. promise.

(:crossfingers: )

edit: found the crosshatch delaminating test at Justpaint, that could work reliably for gesso as well?

ronsu18
03-04-2019, 01:15 PM
solved!
third round using lateral googling 🙊 gave a sitation from a house paint manufacturer:
acrylic paint on oil paint nay
acrylic paint on oil primer yay!

AnnieA
03-04-2019, 04:10 PM
Hey, ronsu, it may depend on the ratio of wc to acrylic, perhaps? I tried googling to find something on the handprint site about gessoing for watercolors. No go - McEvoy covers working with various papers only. But there are lots of other references to gessoing paper for watercolor: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=watercolor+on+gesso+paper&t=osx&ia=web Shouldn't a gessoed paper of any sort take a wc+acrylic mixture even better?

I'm guessing, but it seems to me that once gessoed, the characteristics of the original paper are probably not relevant. However, there might be an issue of whether your process might violate the "no acrylics over oil" rule, although I'm not certain it would apply in the case of a prepared paper. Perhaps the best idea is to contact the mfg of your paper for their advice.

FYI, I was told recently that clear gesso is less absorbent.

ronsu18
03-04-2019, 06:42 PM
thank you so much! you've just opened my eyes to why web searches gave nothing. i've been using the wrong term.
the paper i have is for oil. manufacturers always sell as broadly as possible. arches did not promote the paper for acrylics. i took for granted it's prepared with the specific gesso for oils, and with that thought i continued off pist.... because it's not gessoed it's sized. sigh.
now i naturally take for granted any gesso goes on just fine since it's in the right order sizing -> primer -> pigment. the previous assumption had me question the order: oil primer -> water primer? -> water media. two days wasted on a mental typo, unreal.

the paint combination (acrylic+wc) was easy to find, many people do mixed media these days. the given proportions vary due to differences in paint quality, testing is needed.
yes you're right about the gesso advancing watermedia behaviour, watercolors even have their own grounding medium these days, for more creative paper choices. oh that's right... now i remember reading about colored oil pastel paper used for acrylics and wc - both with and without a layer of clear gesso first. that paper likely has similar sizing as the arches i have.

it's so much work being a newb. AnnieA i can't thank you enough! thank you :wave:

WFMartin
03-05-2019, 08:44 PM
Why are you considering "gessoing" anything? You seem to be painting with water media--watercolor/acrylic.

Just apply your paint directly to the surface of the paper, no matter what sort of paper it is. Just don't be tempted to apply that paint over an oil-painted surface.

ronsu18
03-06-2019, 09:17 AM
hi, thanks for chiming in!
the paper is sized for oil. the manufacturer does not recommend it to acrylics. when testing, watercolor straight from the tube beads up on that paper. if mixed with acrylic, watercolor settles with just a hint of resistance when i upped the ratio. just a little wc mixed with acrylic has the same feel as pure acrylic , and pure acrylic of course shows no signs of mismatch. i think the beading of watercolor alone is significant of future troubles.

WFMartin
03-06-2019, 03:49 PM
hi, thanks for chiming in!
the paper is sized for oil. the manufacturer does not recommend it to acrylics. when testing, watercolor straight from the tube beads up on that paper. if mixed with acrylic, watercolor settles with just a hint of resistance when i upped the ratio. just a little wc mixed with acrylic has the same feel as pure acrylic , and pure acrylic of course shows no signs of mismatch. i think the beading of watercolor alone is significant of future troubles.

Arches Watercolor paper often tends to bead up somewhat when watercolor paint is first applied to the surface, but overall, that does not impede its ability to accept water-based paint at all.

A couple of strokes with the wet brush quickly breaks the surface tension caused by the sizing, and the paint will flow freely, and adhere to the paper.

ronsu18
03-06-2019, 06:13 PM
the paper is for oil.
come to think of it, soaking the paper might change something. thank you for the inspiration! ☺

Harold Roth
03-06-2019, 08:41 PM
Arches Watercolor paper often tends to bead up somewhat when watercolor paint is first applied to the surface, but overall, that does not impede its ability to accept water-based paint at all.
The Arches he has is for oil painting. It's got some kind of oil ground on it. I've been meaning to try it myself.
https://www.dickblick.com/products/arches-oil-paper/

WFMartin
03-11-2019, 07:49 PM
The Arches he has is for oil painting. It's got some kind of oil ground on it. I've been meaning to try it myself.
https://www.dickblick.com/products/arches-oil-paper/

Well, when a surface is "sized for oil paint", that most certainly does not mean that whatever it is sized with contains oil. Most canvases today are sized with acrylic primer, and they accept both oil paint, AND acrylic paint. In fact, some of them today actually accept watercolor paint, as well.

I have used Arches Oil Paper for oil painting myself, and it performed beautifully. However, I did not try to re-invent the wheel, by attempting to apply Acrylic paint, or watercolor paint to it. It's simply not engineered for that purpose. If I had wanted to do that, I would have purchased a surface compatible with either acrylic or watercolor paint. But then, I often tend to be too simplistic in my thinking.:lol:

ronsu18
03-11-2019, 10:50 PM
well that just goes to show the importance of reading a post before replying to it.

on topic; realizing i have no vats or vessels for safe soaking and handling the size intended, i painted the watercolor on this paper. it's been in a challenging, cold environment for a week and the adhesion so far is excellent. i tested bending the paper a little, nothing happened. next test is warmth (=no humidity) but i'm already convinced this painting will last as long i need it to!

Luis Sanchez
03-12-2019, 12:15 AM
Why are you considering "gessoing" anything? You seem to be painting with water media--watercolor/acrylic.

Just apply your paint directly to the surface of the paper, no matter what sort of paper it is. Just don't be tempted to apply that paint over an oil-painted surface.



Exactly. Only reason you may consider applying gesso is if you want to modify the absorbency of surface. If you like how the paper behaves as it then skip the gesso completely. If not, well, there's both gesso formulated for acrylic and watercolour, the main difference being how much water they absorb (or equivalently, how paint moves around). I once used the "alternative" from the competition (Canson Figera) and just used oil straight from the tube/medium without any problems.