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assortedlives
03-01-2019, 05:47 PM
Hello, I would like to paint with inks but i'm wondering the differences of painting with a water soluble fountain ink vs a water-proof india ink. What is your experience?

pedlars pen
03-01-2019, 06:46 PM
Ink is not designed to paint with why do you want to paint with it ?
Paints of all kinds can give a endless choice of finished effect ,to use ink is to limit your expression surely.
Mike

laika
03-01-2019, 11:47 PM
Hello, I would like to paint with inks but i'm wondering the differences of painting with a water soluble fountain ink vs a water-proof india ink.

The Chinese and Japanese have been painting with ink for what... millennia? Have you considered taking that route, grinding your own ink on a dedicated ink stone?

Then some comic/sequential art storytellers use brush and ink in their work. You could research favorite inks for that kind of work. A lot of black India ink is used for that, applied with fine sable brushes.

Most fountain pen inks are dye-based and some will separate into the colors used to make the branded color when water is added. And there are questions of permanence with dyes. Traditional waterproof India ink contains carbon black pigment, which is not prone to fading like some dyes are.

If i we're going to paint with ink, I'd go with a quality India ink, or with a bottle of good sumi ink if you don't want to go to the trouble and expense of getting an inkstone and ink sticks. Sumi-type inks in bottles are getting fairly easy to find.

What kind of painting do have in mind?

pedlars pen
03-02-2019, 04:18 AM
The Chinese and Japanese have been painting with ink for what... millennia?

Der...., well hell yes ! :clap: I had my blinkers on forgetting all about the rich traditions of the east ! Thinking only of using coloured inks tonally like the term "painting" is understood here in the western world. :confused:
Mike

blackandwhite
03-02-2019, 06:44 AM
The main difference between watersoluble and waterproof inks/colors/paints is the ability to blend the previous layers with the ink being applied. With waterproof stuff (Indian inks, acrylic inks,...) all the edges and other details of the dried ink layers will remain there. With watersoluble inks you can blend the colors more freely, which can be used to produce smoother look and more gradual color transitions.

Dolphinfsg
03-02-2019, 07:28 AM
I prefer to paint with Acrylic Inks. I have India Inks as well, but I donít seem to reach for them very often.

Below are some paintings I have done with acrylic ink. I prefer Liquitex. I like they they have similar properties to liquid watercolors, but try waterproof.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Mar-2019/1994697-4A7B2C14-D25C-4233-9C20-BD5AAFCACD12.jpeg

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Mar-2019/1994697-87A58F54-F1B6-48B0-8949-BEF1DE421DBB.jpeg


This was a mix of different acrylic mediums, but I used the ink a lot.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Mar-2019/1994697-D70486F2-CAF0-41FF-8B7D-681536B59C20.jpeg

Charlie's Mum
03-02-2019, 07:48 AM
You don't say whether you want colour or just to use black with a brush!
Water soluble allows soft edges and bleeding.
waterproof is permanent once the mark has dried.

There are drawing inks, not permanent, in beautiful colours and made by Winsor and Newton.

Acrylics inks, permanent once dry, also in beautiful, saturated colours allow both blending and bleeding when applied to damp or wet paper (like watercolours do) but once dry allow layers of colour over the top, often making exciting colours because of the transparency.
My personal preference in these is MagiColor - but F&W, and other manufacturers also make them.

Here's a link to a painting I made earlier this week -
Acrylic ink painting (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1462337)

They can also be used with dip pens if you want to draw with them.

bartc
03-02-2019, 09:05 AM
One of my friends paints gorgeous stuff with inks on silk or other surfaces. I think the brand is Jacquard. Lovely effects, whether realistic or abstract.

Another of my friends uses water soluble ink pens and "spreads" them out with watercolor brushes, so the effect is of both media.

I first learned sumi-e techniques, brush and ink, and still use all that with watercolors and with other media.

In my travel watercolor kit I keep Faber Castel brush pens in colors (ink), as well as Derwent Inktense pencils. The latter work like any pencil or watercolor pencil, but once wet then dried, they are insoluble like India Ink. That allows you to get a wide range of effects and to lay down your pigments using a variety of techiques (brush, pencil, etc.)

Much of the time in watercolor, particularly when traveling, I do line and wash with these and regular watercolors.

Ink is a lovely medium. There are lots of products out there to use. As you might surmise, the ones I use tend to be water soluble (or combinable with watercolors).

laika
03-02-2019, 04:41 PM
Der...., well hell yes ! :clap: I had my blinkers on forgetting all about the rich traditions of the east ! Thinking only of using coloured inks tonally like the term "painting" is understood here in the western world. :confused:
Mike

Mike, honestly, I thought about painting in the western sense when I first read the post, but just the day before, at the local art supply, I got into a deep and wide-ranging discussion with someone who *does* paint exclusively with colored inks. We got into the more eastern side of things in the course of the conversation, so my answer reflected a very recent priming in that direction :)

I hesitate to call acrylic "inks" ink, since they're really just very thin acrylic paints, but my partner in conversation extolled the virtues of acrylic ink and alcohol ink (of which I know nothing), while I was looking at the colored Bombay India Inks. Anyway, now I'm left wondering what is the definition of "ink" :confused:

Payne's Grey
03-02-2019, 07:05 PM
Anyway, now I'm left wondering what is the definition of "ink" :confused:

Here ya' go, from the old Oxford:

Ink, 1. A coloured fluid or paste used for writing, drawing, printing, or duplicating.

Does "drawing" include painting? :)

laika
03-02-2019, 08:36 PM
Does "drawing" include painting? :)

IIRC, at least one frequent poster in the forum described his work as "painting with a pen." Also, in the oil pastel and colored pencil crowds they often refer to their work as paintings. So... I dunno, John...

I notice that your Oxford definition included printer's ink, which can be a sticky, oily mess! One might say that the definition of ink is, er, pretty fluid ;)

pedlars pen
03-03-2019, 05:42 AM
Anyway, now I'm left wondering what is the definition of "ink" :confused:
I think 20 years ago we would not be having this conversation because the answer would be totally obvious to everybody, but usage of vocabulary does evolve & change over time.
That's fine & only natural BUT if the meaning of a word becomes so diluted, so unclear & blurred, so all inclusive, then it loses any useful purpose. We are left all the poorer.

My understanding of "ink" & "painting" is - Ink is a pigment or dye that is suspended in a carrier medium that has the properties according to it's intended use or application.
Exactly the same definition can be used for paint ! :lol:
So we have to look else where for clarity. :wink2:
Paint & painting - Now unless we are going to be pedantic about it we surely know what that is.
So what is the difference ? - In paint & painting an infinite range of tones are available to the artist whereas with ink only a limited range of tones are available.
This IS the defining difference & it has a massive & fundamental effect on any resultant art work, it's whole feeling, character & inherent degree of abstraction.
Mike

ps. Yes I know acrylic ink can be mixed & coaxed into being a paint & to good effect as Maureens' link shows us but that is only to unnecessarily confuse understanding. My basic point remains.

toowoomba sketcher
03-03-2019, 04:20 PM
Surely it is not just the definition of ink that is relevant but the "application of ink".

Draw with ink, paint with ink, use a pen, quill, toothpick, brush, all valid. Black ink, brown ink, blue ink, ink is ink. (almost like Dr Suess there).

Enjoy your ink in whatever way you choose, where the passion lies, where dreams are made, where true living is to be found.

Payne's Grey
03-03-2019, 06:28 PM
Great comment, Shane. I was looking for a "LIKE" button to click on!

pedlars pen
03-03-2019, 07:11 PM
Surely it is not just the definition of ink that is relevant but the "application of ink".

Draw with ink, paint with ink, use a pen, quill, toothpick, brush, all valid. Black ink, brown ink, blue ink, ink is ink. (almost like Dr Suess there).

Enjoy your ink in whatever way you choose, where the passion lies, where dreams are made, where true living is to be found.

Yes a true comment, I agree with it 100% myself,who could disagree ? but I do worry that in this all inclusive & easy to make comment that the centuries of development of technique in P&I are disregarded & ultimately lost to the inclusion of colour. :eek: Yes I really did say that !
Pen & ink is for making line art primarily & maybe a bit wash, which until just a few years ago meant diluted ink . Please feel quite free to use any colours in any way you are inspired to but don't imagine it is a pen & ink drawing with it's unique characteristics :) Definition is important.
Respectfully, from the admittedly purist, Mike

toowoomba sketcher
03-03-2019, 08:02 PM
Hmm well I would have thought that the application of painting with the ink would have changed the finished product to an ink painting or perhaps mixed media.

I respect your opinion Mike and your strong dogmatic approach to this topic, a traditional pen and ink "drawing" it no longer is, such as what dolphinsg has shown us here.

There is certainly a "grey" area here in terms of defining this artwork.

pedlars pen
03-04-2019, 03:55 AM
Hmm well I would have thought that the application of painting with the ink would have changed the finished product to an ink painting or perhaps mixed media.

I respect your opinion Mike and your strong dogmatic approach to this topic, a traditional pen and ink "drawing" it no longer is, such as what dolphinsg has shown us here.

There is certainly a "grey" area here in terms of defining this artwork.
Yes I agree with all of that (even the accusation of dogmatism!) :eek: :lol: there certainly is a "gray" area here.
I suppose that is what concerns me is that I see so much gray area work everywhere that people are calling P&I that the noble black & white essence of this medium will be forgotten - diluted in our memory to a pale undefined gray. We will have lost something :crying: , but I am self evidently swimming against the tide.
Both personal style in art , & excellence in art are achieved by sticking to certain self made rules , limitations if you like but that is not in tune with "anything goes" modern day thinking.
Mike

laika
03-05-2019, 05:15 PM
I suppose that is what concerns me is that I see so much gray area work everywhere that people are calling P&I that the noble black & white essence of this medium will be forgotten - diluted in our memory to a pale undefined gray. We will have lost something :crying: , but I am self evidently swimming against the tide.

Well, the fact is that this forum *does* call itself Pen and Ink, so your purist stance is not misplaced. I've decided that however crappy they may be, my submitted drawings here will be pen-and-ink, and anything involving pen and color will go to the watermedia forum.

pedlars pen
03-05-2019, 07:31 PM
Well, the fact is that this forum *does* call itself Pen and Ink, so your purist stance is not misplaced. I've decided that however crappy they may be, my submitted drawings here will be pen-and-ink, and anything involving pen and color will go to the watermedia forum.

Why ? because of a single persons opinion ? That is a misplaced reaction Iakia, I have my views on P&I aesthetics & you have yours, & no body at all was specifically mentioned (& I didn't even have you in mind) .
Please read Maureens' rules on posting here, colour is allowed , posts using it are increasing. Fine :)
I am only another equal member , am I not occasionally permitted to voice my fears of a concern over an ever broadening definition of pen & ink techniques ? & on the pen & ink forum too ! We can agree to disagree without falling out :).
Mike

toowoomba sketcher
03-05-2019, 09:48 PM
It's all good Laika, you should still post your pen works here, coloured or not.

tiago.dagostini
03-06-2019, 07:19 AM
Ink is not designed to paint with why do you want to paint with it ?
Paints of all kinds can give a endless choice of finished effect ,to use ink is to limit your expression surely.
Mike



mm sorry but ink was FIRST created for painting with brushes.. and only looooooong time later it got other uses.




Regarding the OP question.. Indian ink dries and is not reactivated by water.. fountain pen ink are not absolutely water proof and second passes will lift them up... at least that is the most significative difference.

laika
03-06-2019, 06:48 PM
I am only another equal member , am I not occasionally permitted to voice my fears of a concern over an ever broadening definition of pen & ink techniques ? & on the pen & ink forum too ! We can agree to disagree without falling out :).
Mike

No, no, Mike - we're not having a falling out at all! I arrived at my decision to stay strictly with pen-and-ink back in January with my camera drawing for that month's challenge. I decided that the discipline of trying to represent tone and texture in black and white was a worthy pursuit in itself.

I think I'm still having trouble making myself clear after having a stroke a few months back. We are not disagreeing at all :)

laika
03-06-2019, 07:06 PM
It's all good Laika, you should still post your pen works here, coloured or not.

Thanks for your input, Shane! If it's a little line and wash or something with very little color I wouldn't hesitate to post it here, but sometimes I do things with a little bit of pen-and-ink and lots of, say, Inktense colors, and that probably is more appropriate to the Watermedia forum.

Maybe we need a Pen and Ink Plus sticky thread here :)

tiago.dagostini
03-07-2019, 06:02 AM
At my eyes the problem with wetcanvas is exaclty the opposite.. too much compartmentalization. It makes each forum squalid and empty.


I wold remove 80% of the forums. Have one for dry media one for paintings.. one for color and composition theory .. one for human figure.. and nothing else.... would make the community interact much more...

objectivistartist
03-10-2019, 02:23 PM
I consider most of my art as 'painting with ink' - especially my latest, "Moon and Tea" -

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Mar-2019/44482-Moon_and_Tea_0059a.jpg

laika
03-14-2019, 10:01 PM
I consider most of my art as 'painting with ink' - especially my latest, "Moon and Tea" -

Ah! I thought it was you that said that.

Those distant trees look like kudzu "monsters" in moonlight.

RoadLessTaken
03-27-2019, 11:02 AM
I tend toward being too rigid in my thoughts so I distinguish my works by what the words on the bottle of "stuff" I'm using. I honestly will write the name on a piece of tape and afix it to the tube or bottle if it's only named on the box!

When I first joined WC waaaaaay back a mod asked me an innocent question. That, I know now but back when asked I thought I was being criticized for being in the wrong forum. So much so that I wanted to go to the acrylics forum for a long time but waited until I recognized Maureen from both and decided I would be "safe".

I do like seeing a work and knowing the media that was used however, many of use disagree with the very basic vocabulary and tools we use. My biggest fear however is that my work be confused with that of a child playing with crayons (wax pastels anyone?).

As long as I don't have to remain in a very small box I'm good!
Sheila RoadLessTaken