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axel9546
02-15-2019, 10:42 AM
Hi guys!
Im used to paint on hanhemule velour paper that is a professional paper for pastels.
I can reach the highest type of detail and harmonious values arrangement
Do u know a surface that is similar for oils?

RomanB
02-15-2019, 11:05 AM
A wooden board made from very dry radial-cut planks, reinforced by oak bars, coated with loose fabric, rabbit skin glue, grounded with lead white and chalk (http://artsklad.ru/125264-large_default/ikonnaya-doska-bez-kovchega-lipa-22kh26sm.jpg). After 600 years oil paintings made on such supports are still in good condition if they were stored and conserved properly.

Next is linen canvas made from long fibres and manually grounded with RSG or sturgeon glue and then with Lead White and chalk. Those should be used only when they were prepared recently. For finest detail, canvas should be made tightly, from relatively thin threads and ground should be applied with a special knife.

DebWDC
02-15-2019, 02:32 PM
Hi Axel – It took me years and a lot of effort to change my thinking from “What did the great masters use?” to “What is best for me to use now with modern technology and materials?” The implicit bias many of us have is that the great masters did it best in history, therefore that’s the way I should do it. I think that there are better materials and better preparation processes now available, which are both cheaper and simpler.

I do a lot of practice pieces on Arches brand paper made for oil painting, just temporarily taped to a flat board, like a watercolor paper is. Then, if I want to keep it more permanently, after it dries, I can PVA glue it to MDF. This paper requires no surface preparation with acrylic or oil ground, and is manufactured to not rot on contact with the oil paint, so no sizing or sealing is necessary. If I don’t want to keep it, I throw it away. It’s cheap! The tactile feel of painting on a canvas is not important to me.

What was traditionally used in the past may not be the best now. What I mean by this is that reinforced planks, rabbit skin glue, and cotton or flax linen have a long history of being used by really talented painters – and for being very carefully preserved and restored by art museums. Without that careful conservation, these materials will not hold up over time; decades or centuries. (Heresy, I know!) Those three large Thomas Moran landscapes in the Smithsonian Art Museum in WDC, done on canvas supported on stretcher bars, are now glued to large sheets of aluminum to prevent further deterioration from sagging, swelling and contracting, etc.

I suggest for a structure something that will not swell or contract much in temperature or humidity changes. This surface could be copper ($$$), aluminum ($$), medium density fiberboard in the US ($), or something similar. If MDF, then all 6 sides should be sealed against humidity with a sealant which itself does not change with humidity. So, this means not rabbit skin glue which is hygroscopic. A pH-neutral adhesive, such as PVA, is better. The PVA could also be used to glue your surface to the structure. The structure should ideally be braced in the back to guard against bowing or bending; I use cheap 1 inch by ½ inch planks, cut to fit. These also I seal with PVA on all 6 sides. If you buy and do this yourself, it will be much cheaper than purposefully made art products. I buy MDF at a hardware store and have it cut down to smaller sizes.

Deb now happily in Arizona
ps - excellence is the enemy of the good

Richard P
02-15-2019, 03:24 PM
Dibond

Delofasht
02-15-2019, 05:01 PM
By the definition of "professional" meaning getting paid to do the work, almost any surface works so long as it's what the client is buying. That said, we all have our preferences.

I like hardboard, it's easily accessible, cradling is easy on bigger pieces, just buy some inexpensive hardwood hobby boards and make a cradle. On smaller pieces just throw it in a frame and it'll have enough dimensional support from that. Buy it from the hardware store, tempered or untempered is your choice, seal with a glue (PVA is fine, others are fine too, non hygroscopic ones are best), prime with gesso (acrylic or traditional is your choice as well), and paint when it's dry. More time invested in making one yourself, but much less expensive.

If I were to purchase a premade surface, it would definitely be Gessobord by Ampersand. It has all the qualities I like in a surface right out of the package, and at larger sizes comes cradled. Just include the cost of the surface into the price of the final piece (multiplied by 2 to cover potential waste).

Edit: Also, "Best" is going to differ based on what each individual likes to paint on and the purpose for which it is being used. In Illustration, MDF or Hardboard are definitely VERY commonly used because they are inexpensive. Portraiture and work to be sold to individuals often requires using canvas with the average buyer because that is what is expected of a painting to be on (in spite of the old master's paintings being often done on panels). So there is so many variables that can change what is best for what specific purpose and audience.

JustAStudent
02-15-2019, 05:06 PM
Cave walls. Proven to last 70,000 years.

Delofasht
02-15-2019, 05:13 PM
Cave walls. Proven to last 70,000 years.


Rock! Definitely the most archival... not the most portable though. Falls into the category of "what will the buyer pay for?"

axel9546
02-15-2019, 05:58 PM
Hi Axel – It took me years and a lot of effort to change my thinking from “What did the great masters use?” to “What is best for me to use now with modern technology and materials?” The implicit bias many of us have is that the great masters did it best in history, therefore that’s the way I should do it. I think that there are better materials and better preparation processes now available, which are both cheaper and simpler.

I do a lot of practice pieces on Arches brand paper made for oil painting, just temporarily taped to a flat board, like a watercolor paper is. Then, if I want to keep it more permanently, after it dries, I can PVA glue it to MDF. This paper requires no surface preparation with acrylic or oil ground, and is manufactured to not rot on contact with the oil paint, so no sizing or sealing is necessary. If I don’t want to keep it, I throw it away. It’s cheap! The tactile feel of painting on a canvas is not important to me.

What was traditionally used in the past may not be the best now. What I mean by this is that reinforced planks, rabbit skin glue, and cotton or flax linen have a long history of being used by really talented painters – and for being very carefully preserved and restored by art museums. Without that careful conservation, these materials will not hold up over time; decades or centuries. (Heresy, I know!) Those three large Thomas Moran landscapes in the Smithsonian Art Museum in WDC, done on canvas supported on stretcher bars, are now glued to large sheets of aluminum to prevent further deterioration from sagging, swelling and contracting, etc.

I suggest for a structure something that will not swell or contract much in temperature or humidity changes. This surface could be copper ($$$), aluminum ($$), medium density fiberboard in the US ($), or something similar. If MDF, then all 6 sides should be sealed against humidity with a sealant which itself does not change with humidity. So, this means not rabbit skin glue which is hygroscopic. A pH-neutral adhesive, such as PVA, is better. The PVA could also be used to glue your surface to the structure. The structure should ideally be braced in the back to guard against bowing or bending; I use cheap 1 inch by ½ inch planks, cut to fit. These also I seal with PVA on all 6 sides. If you buy and do this yourself, it will be much cheaper than purposefully made art products. I buy MDF at a hardware store and have it cut down to smaller sizes.

Deb now happily in Arizona
ps - excellence is the enemy of the good
Thanks you!! Did you tried also hanhemule oil paper ?

axel9546
02-15-2019, 05:58 PM
By the definition of "professional" meaning getting paid to do the work, almost any surface works so long as it's what the client is buying. That said, we all have our preferences.

I like hardboard, it's easily accessible, cradling is easy on bigger pieces, just buy some inexpensive hardwood hobby boards and make a cradle. On smaller pieces just throw it in a frame and it'll have enough dimensional support from that. Buy it from the hardware store, tempered or untempered is your choice, seal with a glue (PVA is fine, others are fine too, non hygroscopic ones are best), prime with gesso (acrylic or traditional is your choice as well), and paint when it's dry. More time invested in making one yourself, but much less expensive.

If I were to purchase a premade surface, it would definitely be Gessobord by Ampersand. It has all the qualities I like in a surface right out of the package, and at larger sizes comes cradled. Just include the cost of the surface into the price of the final piece (multiplied by 2 to cover potential waste).

Edit: Also, "Best" is going to differ based on what each individual likes to paint on and the purpose for which it is being used. In Illustration, MDF or Hardboard are definitely VERY commonly used because they are inexpensive. Portraiture and work to be sold to individuals often requires using canvas with the average buyer because that is what is expected of a painting to be on (in spite of the old master's paintings being often done on panels). So there is so many variables that can change what is best for what specific purpose and audience.
Thanks!!!

DebWDC
02-15-2019, 07:24 PM
Hi Axel - No, I haven't tried Hahnemuhle brand paper. It sounds great from the description at Jackson's Art in UK. I am in the US. I have only tried Canson Canva-paper and Arches oil paper. Arches seems to have better (more detailed) technical description. … But, I am not an expert and am usually puzzled about what criteria and evidence to use to make good decisions on which art products to buy. Deb
Edit: Hey now I see that Hahnemuhle is available in the US at Dick Blick's and of course now I want to try it :)

contumacious
02-15-2019, 07:32 PM
Another vote for ACM Panels / Dibond.

Only solid gold, copper or stainless steel might out last the aluminum outer layer of an ACM panel but it is going to be pretty heavy unless it is built like an ACM panel with a synthetic core.


Won't warp like wood products.
More damage resistant than Tempered Hardboard or MDF
Will not crack like wood panels can
No SID like you can get from wood panels
Extremely flat already, no need to spend time smoothing it up.
You can prime and paint right on it or adhere linen, canvas or paper to it.
Linen mounted on Dibond is significantly more stable (less chance for cracking) and more resistant to impact damage from the front or the back than stretched canvas - equal to solid wood mounted, or slightly better impact damage resistance.
Less expensive ($40 for a 4x8 3mm thick sheet) than quality stretched canvas, copper, or premium wood panels.
Should last for thousands of years if kept indoors and out of direct sunlight. Will last for many years OUTDOORS in the wind, rain, snow and DIRECT SUNLIGHT! You can't say that for canvas, wood, hardboard or MDF.

DebWDC
02-15-2019, 07:40 PM
Hi Contumacious - Could you please give more details on how you prep the surface for painting? I have read various descriptions, and don't know which works or why. Thanks - and I hope I am not hijacking this thread. Deb in AZ

Delofasht
02-15-2019, 07:44 PM
Thanks you!! Did you tried also hanhemule oil paper ?

I have and found it excellent. It is quite a bit different from Arches Oil Paper, having a more regular canvas look and feel due to the simulated weave. I would pick either, grabbing which ever is a good buy. The Hahnemuhle feels a bit thinned of a paper to me, but quite sturdy.

Working on paper is my favorite for sketches and studies, if it turns out really good I can always glue it down. They could absolutely be used for professional work, glued to a panel they should prove quite archival for gallery work even.

JustAStudent
02-15-2019, 11:54 PM
I have and found it excellent. It is quite a bit different from Arches Oil Paper, having a more regular canvas look and feel due to the simulated weave. I would pick either, grabbing which ever is a good buy. The Hahnemuhle feels a bit thinned of a paper to me, but quite sturdy.

Working on paper is my favorite for sketches and studies, if it turns out really good I can always glue it down. They could absolutely be used for professional work, glued to a panel they should prove quite archival for gallery work even.


The prices I'm seeing for pads of Arches are comparable to the cheapest canvases. 12x16" are $1.58 per sheet, Blickt supervalue canvases in that size are $1.83/canvas. Is there an advantage to the paper over a very cheap canvas other than portability?

Delofasht
02-16-2019, 12:15 AM
The prices I'm seeing for pads of Arches are comparable to the cheapest canvases. 12x16" are $1.58 per sheet, Blickt supervalue canvases in that size are $1.83/canvas. Is there an advantage to the paper over a very cheap canvas other than portability?

I like the portability for sure, but also prefer how the paper handles the paint better than stretched primed canvases as well. Stretched canvas has a kind of spring under the brush that I find greatly distracting. The paper seems to take the early layers better without as much of the paint blending into subsequent strokes quite as much. It feels better for laying in a sketch in oil, then building on top of that all in one sitting. In studio, the paper is much easier to tape to walls for drying, or I use magnets to hold them to my metal art supplies shelving unit for drying. The space saved is very important to me.

axel9546
02-16-2019, 01:47 AM
Hi Axel - No, I haven't tried Hahnemuhle brand paper. It sounds great from the description at Jackson's Art in UK. I am in the US. I have only tried Canson Canva-paper and Arches oil paper. Arches seems to have better (more detailed) technical description. … But, I am not an expert and am usually puzzled about what criteria and evidence to use to make good decisions on which art products to buy. Deb
Edit: Hey now I see that Hahnemuhle is available in the US at Dick Blick's and of course now I want to try it :)
Thanks let me know how that was :)

axel9546
02-16-2019, 01:51 AM
Another vote for ACM Panels / Dibond.

Only solid gold, copper or stainless steel might out last the aluminum outer layer of an ACM panel but it is going to be pretty heavy unless it is built like an ACM panel with a synthetic core.


Won't warp like wood products.
More damage resistant than Tempered Hardboard or MDF
Will not crack like wood panels can
No SID like you can get from wood panels
Extremely flat already, no need to spend time smoothing it up.
You can prime and paint right on it or adhere linen, canvas or paper to it.
Linen mounted on Dibond is significantly more stable (less chance for cracking) and more resistant to impact damage from the front or the back than stretched canvas - equal to solid wood mounted, or slightly better impact damage resistance.
Less expensive ($40 for a 4x8 3mm thick sheet) than quality stretched canvas, copper, or premium wood panels.
Should last for thousands of years if kept indoors and out of direct sunlight. Will last for many years OUTDOORS in the wind, rain, snow and DIRECT SUNLIGHT! You can't say that for canvas, wood, hardboard or MDF.

Wow ove juat saw them! Thanks for the tip, they are expensive 🤩

axel9546
02-16-2019, 01:55 AM
I like the portability for sure, but also prefer how the paper handles the paint better than stretched primed canvases as well. Stretched canvas has a kind of spring under the brush that I find greatly distracting. The paper seems to take the early layers better without as much of the paint blending into subsequent strokes quite as much. It feels better for laying in a sketch in oil, then building on top of that all in one sitting. In studio, the paper is much easier to tape to walls for drying, or I use magnets to hold them to my metal art supplies shelving unit for drying. The space saved is very important to me.
Do you prepare the paper with gesso? I would for getting the paper an extra layer for the paint film. As i have a drawing board for the easel, can i just attach the arches or hanhemule sheet of paper to the board wih scothc, gesso it, and start painting?

Richard P
02-16-2019, 04:20 AM
You can buy dibond or ACM panels in larger sizes and then cut them into smaller sizes. That can work out cheaper. Also look around the online sites, some are much cheaper than others.

contumacious
02-16-2019, 12:40 PM
Wow ove juat saw them! Thanks for the tip, they are expensive 🤩

Not that expensive really. If you buy generic brands rather than Dibond, you can make a 9x12 panel for 94 cents. Priming cost is minimal. Attaching canvas will increase the cost significantly, but if you are going to use canvas anyway, attaching it to ACM panels using something like Beva 371, as noted already, this is a superior package to stretched canvas. I prefer to paint directly on ACM panels with a ground rather than canvas.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1450975

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1433490


As noted by Richard P, you cut them down to size from the 4x8 sheets. ACM panels are much easier to cut than wood or hardboard panels. All you need is a straight edge and a craft knife. No saw required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcjjoOXHISs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBs9BwdBNho&t=19s

axel9546
02-17-2019, 01:10 PM
Thanks all guys for suggestions

ik345
02-18-2019, 01:59 PM
Hello,

I believe that my question belongs to this topic, but I am on the other side. It will be interesting to hear opinions on supports for hobby painting.

I'd like to paint better versions of studies that turned out good. The basic canvas seem to be good enough, but I am thinking of buying better ones. It is not about "I want it to last 100 years" but simply because I will spend much more time on them than anyone more experienced, and of course I want to avoid stupid problems.

The main difference I see in online shops is how heavy is the canvas: 300 gms for basic against 350 - 450 gms for better ones. They also say that the frame has one middle plank for more stability, beginning from certain sizes - and a rather large basic one I have at home does not have that. Not that I will need a lot of them, but better ones cost at least twice more - it would make them noticeable in my budget.

Luckily, I don't have to decide for paints as I haven't seen no-name water mixable oils, so I buy respected brands.

Did you ever (or often) had problems with cheap canvas? Does it make sense to buy more expensive for a hobby?

Thank you!

RomanB
02-18-2019, 02:54 PM
ik345, the cheapest way is to stretch canvases manually. Nowadays nice stretcher bars are sold in any size, as of instruments you'll need to buy canvas pliers - they are the only specialised tool needed. If you don't like hammering nails, a manual staple gun could be handy too.

axel9546
02-19-2019, 02:51 AM
I dont like to paint on canvas xd
I use a drawing board and i tape a piece of gessoed paper on it :)