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plnelson
02-08-2019, 09:14 PM
I was reading a description of Weber's Turpenoid Natural ( http://www.weberart.com/turpenoid-natural.html) and it says it's "nontoxic". I understand that turpenoid is less toxic than turpentine, but nontoxic? Also, since turpenoids are mineral spirits, what makes this one "natural"?

When I looked at the MSDS ( https://www.srart.org/solvents/TurpenoidNaturalMSDS.pdf), most of it said "Not Applicable". Why would stuff like Flash Point be "not applicable"?

Thanks in advance.

Pinguino
02-08-2019, 09:47 PM
Quite apart from the MSDS, I looked around the Internet but could find little information other than the same product ads repeated.

But it seems that the product is non-combustible. That is, it simply will not burn. Therefore it has no flash point.

Best guess (only a guess) is that the product is unfortunately named. It is not something like turpentine, nor like OMS. It may well be a solution of non-toxic detergents, perhaps with a touch of limonene (but not enough for toxicity in reasonable quantities) and maybe lanolin. Cannot be used as a paint thinner, only as a brush cleaner.

May be nontoxic, but I'll bet if you swallowed some, you'd soon have the runs.

plnelson
02-08-2019, 10:22 PM
Cannot be used as a paint thinner, only as a brush cleaner.


It claims in the link it can be used as a medium up to a 4:1 paint:Turpenoid ratio.

Pinguino
02-09-2019, 11:59 AM
It claims in the link it can be used as a medium up to a 4:1 paint:Turpenoid ratio.

OK, I believe that. Similar to water-soluble oils, slightly.

Pinguino
02-09-2019, 02:39 PM
Further info:

Various sources are not in complete agreement as to what constitutes a "combustible" liquid. One definition (Canada WHMIS) says "Combustible liquids have a flashpoint at or above 37.8C (100F) and below 93.3C (200F)."

Another site, not governmental but directed toward places that store materials, says that a combustible liquid is one that can be ignited at a temperature below the liquid's boiling point. That doesn't seem authoritative.

According to the US OSH, combustible liquids can be defined in two ways, depending on context. The one that seems to be applicable here is the same as the Canadian standard.

According to one standard, linseed oil is combustible (that is, it will burn under certain circumstances, but is not easy to ignite or maintain a flame). According to a different standard, linseed oil is not combustible (even though it can be made to burn, it is too difficult to ignite or maintain a flame).

Many oily liquids would be combustible in the second sense, but not the first. But this should not be a matter of much concern: To be combustible in either sense, your house would already be on fire.

As for the toxicity: No doubt there are standards for what "toxic" means in this context, but they are not obvious. For example, it seems that the toxic dose of pure caffeine is about 10 grams per day. This is much less than would be ingested by a heavy-duty coffee drinker. So, is coffee non-toxic, or not?

I'm not impressed by the word "natural" in the product. Many things that are bad for you, are natural. For example, urishiol is a natural oil produced by the plant known in California as Poison Oak. It's the active irritant and allergen. But natural urishiol is also the active ingredient in traditional Japan Lacquer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer#Urushiol-based_lacquers).

Likewise, pure Castile Soap is not "natural," being the reaction product of oil with a strong alkali. Yet few folks would object to this product for its intended purpose.

RomanB
02-09-2019, 05:28 PM
It seems that it just wasn't tested for toxic effects (https://www.msdsdigital.com/turpenoid-naturalr-msds). I find it strange since they must somehow pass customs and get ACMI approval according to ASTM D-4236 standard.

Pinguino
02-09-2019, 06:22 PM
CORRECTION: I originally wrote: "For example, it seems that the toxic dose of pure caffeine is about 10 grams per day. This is much less than would be ingested by a heavy-duty coffee drinker."

SHOULD BE: "For example, it seems that the toxic dose of pure caffeine is about 10 grams per day. This is much more than would be ingested by a heavy-duty coffee drinker."

@RomanB: The link you provided seems to lead to a membership site. Not easy to find the MSDS there. In any case, do not confuse Turpenoid with Turpenoid Natural. They are two different products (https://www.jerrysartarama.com/weber-turpenoid-and-turpenoid-natural).

Turpenoid is a turpentine substitute, which (from its own MSDS) would be an OMS with a lower flash point than (say) Gamsol or Eco-House NeutralThin. I cannot think of any reason for an artist to use Turpenoid, except possibly as a substitute for actual turpentine, in situations where OMS isn't strong enough.

Turpenoid Natural doesn't say what it is made from. Its MSDS claims that it is neither combustible nor toxic. If I understand the standards correctly (and maybe I don't), the product would be combustible according to one standard, but not according to the other. But at that elevated temperature range, you already have a heat problem. The MSDS does claim that the product has been tested as non-toxic by some standard, in that the product contains no materials in sufficient quantities for acute or long-term toxicity (rather like coffee, I suppose).

Guess there's no way to find out more, without directly asking Weber, the manufacturer.

JustAStudent
02-09-2019, 07:19 PM
SHOULD BE: "For example, it seems that the toxic dose of pure caffeine is about 10 grams per day. This is much more than would be ingested by a heavy-duty coffee drinker."

This is right around 100 cups of coffee... which we all know the effects of, having watched Futurama.

bobc100
02-10-2019, 08:11 AM
Turpenoid is the name Weber gives their OMS. Turpenoid Natural is the name of a different product of theirs which they describe as being "a unique blend of ingredients." There isn't necessarily any relation between the two other than having similar uses.