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bokaba
02-02-2019, 07:59 PM
Anyone have any experience using genuine Van Dyke Brown? I am assuming it is not light fast and may problems drying completely.

Are there any oils that currently use NBr8? The only one I can find is Vasari Van Dyke Brown. WN Winton and Artist Oil both claim to use NBr8 on its website, but none of the tubes in stores mention that pigment.

Marc Kingsland
02-03-2019, 12:42 AM
I think both Natural Pigments and Williamsburg Oils make genuine versions. I can't speak for what they're like. I haven't used Van Dyke Brown since Reagan was President. :lol:

bokaba
02-03-2019, 12:54 AM
Utrecht appears to have it

JCannon
02-03-2019, 09:19 AM
Vasari is notorious for its refusal to list "ingredients." The WN version -- available online, if you can't find it in stores -- is genuine NBr8 mixed with Burnt Sienna. The Williamsburg is NBr8 mixed with Raw Umber. The Utrecht is actually PBr8, Sepia, which would appear to have the same lightfastness issues as NBr8. Kama offers a Van Dyke Brown which is actually PBr6. The Schmincke Mussini VD Brown is a three-pigment approximation of the original.The Michael Harding version is really a Burnt Umber.

The Natural Pigments/Rublev tubes seem to be the only ones offering the real unadulterated thing under the name "Van Dyke Brown." They're out of stock at the moment.

However, another term for Van Dyke Brown is Cassel Brown or Cassel Earth. From the Natural Pigments website:

"Rublev Colours Van Dyke Brown Artists Oil is made from lignite or bituminous earth containing iron oxide found in Kassel or Cologne, Germany. It was also known as Cassel earth and Cologne earth."

Maimeri Puro offers an alleged Cassel Earth, but it's really just our old friend Burnt Umber. Look like a really good Burnt Umber, judging from the swatch. The Blockx version of Cassel is another old friend, Burnt Sienna.

Gigalot
02-03-2019, 10:08 AM
Master Class VanDyck is made from decomposed peat, mined in Porhov deposit located not far from Sanct Petersburg. This pigment is weak, darker than Iron oxides, Umber e.t.c

Raffless
02-03-2019, 01:02 PM
Vandyke Brown was part of the classic Bob Ross palette. He painted his wonderful log cabins with it.

Dcam
02-03-2019, 01:51 PM
Often, I make a lovely black with Van Dyke brown and Prussian blue.
Two fugitives. :lol:

Pinguino
02-03-2019, 03:22 PM
Vandyke Brown was part of the classic Bob Ross palette. He painted his wonderful log cabins with it.
The Bob Ross paints do not have pigments listed, either on the Bob Ross web site, or on Dick Blick. I found this page (http://www.artiscreation.com/Bob_Ross_Pigments.html) where the artist "reverse engineered" the pigments, presumably by reading the actual tubes from the American supplier (Weber) rather than the European supplier (Lucas). His Van Dyke Brown apparently is a mixture of PBk9 (Ivory Black) and PBr7 (Brown Iron Oxide).

sarahsands
02-03-2019, 03:45 PM
......The Williamsburg is NBr8 mixed with Raw Umber.....

Just wanted to add some context for this, which we touched on in a blog post some years back:


When is Long too Long a Time? On Van Dyke Brown and the Art of Drying (http://www.williamsburgoils.com/blog/?p=82)

The main point we cover there is that the umber is being used strictly as a drier at its lowest effective percentage (2%), rather than truly as a "pigment" with the aim of adjusting color or replacing a percentage of the van dyke brown as a form of adulterant. Using a fast drying pigment in this way, especially with colors like van dyke brown and cassel earth, is historically rooted and goes back to at least Rembrandt's time and studio practice if not before. The only other option to make the paint useable in a practical way, since by itself it could take months to dry, would be the addition of very high levels of cobalt-manganese driers. Higher than we would feel comfortable with.

Ironically if one had used artificial driers those would not need to appear on the label, but add any amount of pigment to accomplish the same goal, even at negligible levels, and ASTM's labeling guidelines state that it must be listed. Which we have no problem with - but it can cause a misunderstanding that the color you are getting is 98% pure van dyke brown with the raw umber causing no perceptual change in the color, feel, or working properties - short of a thin film drying in less than two or more weeks.

Finally, if having a pure van dyke brown, with no raw umber, is important to you, we can always make custom orders - indeed we have a department that's sole purpose is to make custom products.

JCannon
02-03-2019, 03:52 PM
Thanks for the word from Sarah Sands. After reading that piece, I now understand why there is a small amount of umber in the VD Brown. If I had some, I might even add a bit more umber.

My problem with Raw Umber is that it just isn't dark enough. So VD Brown may be an interesting way to go.

Raffless
02-03-2019, 04:51 PM
The Bob Ross paints do not have pigments listed, either on the Bob Ross web site, or on Dick Blick. I found this page (http://www.artiscreation.com/Bob_Ross_Pigments.html) where the artist "reverse engineered" the pigments, presumably by reading the actual tubes from the American supplier (Weber) rather than the European supplier (Lucas). His Van Dyke Brown apparently is a mixture of PBk9 (Ivory Black) and PBr7 (Brown Iron Oxide).

I usually post a Bob Ross comment for entertainment value only :)

bokaba
02-11-2019, 02:02 AM
Has anyone tried the Michael Harding Van Dyke Brown? I know it is Pbr7, but it looks very black to me.

yellow_oxide
02-11-2019, 09:01 PM
A few years ago I did a comparison of Van Dyke brown and similar paints on my blog. Here's the photos-

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Feb-2019/1045312-van-dyke-brown-swatches-1-392.jpeg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Feb-2019/1045312-van-dyke-brown-swatches-2-top-648a.jpeg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Feb-2019/1045312-van-dyke-brown-swatches-2-bottom-6481.jpeg

The tints are with titanium white. The Williamsburg French Cassel earth is listed as the old version because the tube I have is before they started adding a little umber to it. That one took about exactly 1 month to dry, but their Van Dyke brown with umber added took exactly 7 days if I remember right. I'm not sure how long the Gilsonite took to dry as I eventually forgot to keep checking and forgot to ever update the blog post. It seems like the anthracite that I made didn't take an unreasonable amount of time, but what I wrote in the post makes it sound like it was longer than 9 days.

I've always liked the transparency of genuine Van Dyke brown.

Pinguino
02-11-2019, 09:17 PM
According to Golden's Just Paint (https://www.justpaint.org/weighing-in-on-the-drying-of-oils/) site, "some pigments can have a retarding effect, containing elements such as phenols that function as anti-oxidants and are often associated with Carbon Blacks and genuine Van Dyke Browns."

JCannon
02-12-2019, 11:56 AM
Hm. Seems to me, then, that Carbon Black and VDB would be good candidates for Cobalt drier. The yellowing should not be a problem.

Edit: I just glanced at the Golden article referenced above. It says, counter-intuitively, that the paint samples with a large amount of siccative actually dried more slowly than that a film with a very small amount.
The answer resides in a couple of areas. First, because these driers are more active at the surface, they often cause a paint to skin over much more quickly, which in turn creates that diffusion barrier we mentioned earlier. In this way an innocent attempt to boost drying times can actually end up slowing down the overall process, and in some cases even hindering the paints from curing completely.
Secondly, the effectiveness of cobalt drier appears to be fairly short-lived once it is exposed to oxidation. In fact, the researchers that conducted the study (Mallol, et al, 2000) estimate that it starts to significantly decrease in strength after just 7 or 8 hours due to the generation of specific by-products that suppress their reactivity.
I suspect that this issue is less problematic for those who paint thinly, as I do. Still, it may be as well to use just the tiniest dab of cobalt and to mix the VDB or Carbon Black with a bit of umber and (perhaps) Prussian Blue.

Liquin? I'm mistrustful of alkyds, but...maybe. My problem with the alkyds is that they sometimes go tacky rapidly but stay tacky for weeks.

I do love Carbon Black beyond all others, but the drying time is an issue.

JustAStudent
02-12-2019, 12:02 PM
How do you all make these nice clean tint bars? Lay a strip of white down just to the right of your color you're testing and then work lesser amounts of the color into it as you move right?

yellow_oxide
02-12-2019, 06:03 PM
How do you all make these nice clean tint bars? Lay a strip of white down just to the right of your color you're testing and then work lesser amounts of the color into it as you move right?

The method I eventually settled on was to do all of the mixing off to the side. I place a small blob of the paint being tested with a palette knife and then next to it what looks like an equal amount of white before mixing them. Then repeat that for the next tint in a separate mix, except getting the colored paint from the color that was just mixed. The palette knife should be wiped often to keep the amounts equal. Then after that three tint mixes are just laid down next to each other in the clean area.

bokaba
02-14-2019, 07:01 PM
I went ahead and ordered the Williamsburg Van Dyke. They say at least 99% NBr8.

AnnieA
02-25-2019, 08:39 PM
This was a stray comment that I've now deleted.