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bokaba
01-19-2019, 10:35 PM
I am wondering which black pigment might work best for me. I do quite a bit of fine outlining on impasto wet on wet paint (similar to Van Gogh). I am currently using lamp black (Pbk 7) and it work okay, but take forever to dry.

I have mixed my own chromatic blacks from alizarin crimson/phthalo green and ultramarine/burn umber (which do well in mixtures) but don't have the covering power or opacity I am looking for.

I have not tried ivory black (pbk 9) or Mars black (pbk 11).

Any suggestions?

RomanB
01-20-2019, 02:38 AM
Bone Black dries better than various pure carbon blacks, it has a distinctive warm undertone. Try it.

Mars Black usually contains little oil and dries fast, but feels differently from carbon blacks, you’ll need some practice to master it. Could be greyish or brownish, check particular manufacturer’s drawdowns. Also worth trying.

Spinel blacks are unreliable - they were not created to be used in artist’s paints. Maybe they’ll last long, maybe not.

Blacks containting lots of manganese dry fast, but unfortunately manganese continues to act on linseed oil deteriorating it.

Perylene black isn’t black, it’s green.

All “chromatic blacks” will look atrocious after a few years since pigments have various lightfastness, don’t use this trick in any work which could even accidentally last some time.

Richard P
01-20-2019, 03:32 AM
I'd say Mars Black as I paint wet on wet too. Depending on the brand it can dry in a day or two.

contumacious
01-20-2019, 10:14 AM
All “chromatic blacks” will look atrocious after a few years since pigments have various lightfastness, don’t use this trick in any work which could even accidentally last some time.

Perhaps a better word would be "Some" rather than "All" to describe what you are saying. Certainly if you use non permanent colors it would apply but there are numerous dark colors out there that have outstanding light permanence. I have paintings done in the 70s that show no signs of atrocious looking chromatic darks / blacks.

I prefer the look of chromatic blacks. pure black pigment appears dead to me. I never use them. I also don't like the look of most burnt umbers.

Which of these blacks (with white) would you gentlemen advise for a grissaile ? or; would you rather a mix to make black for under painting.

A good question Dcam. My wife and I are about to venture into working with the grisaille topped with glazing for the first time. For the last 50 years we have always painted alla prima or directly with no underpainting, other than a line drawing or to block in the large shapes. This might be an instance where I would want to use a neutral, single pigment black to prevent chroma shifts. The "dead" look shouldn't be an issue since it will end up being covered with colors that are more "alive" looking.

Gamblin has a premixed convenience chromatic black that might be of interest to some.

https://gamblincolors.com/chromatic-black/

Blacks dry very slowly, unless there is a black I am not aware of, they are not suitable for Grisailles or underpaintings. Mixing a black using the fast drying pigments is more advisable.

For those without an aversion to alkyds, there are several premixed blacks out there that would dry overnight. Sooner if thinned with OMS. Gamblin's Fast Matte alkyd paints dry with a very nice satin/matte sheen that I would think would be nice to work on with glazing since it would be less slipper.

Dcam
01-20-2019, 10:14 AM
Which of these blacks (with white) would you gentlemen advise for a grissaile ? or; would you rather a mix to make black for under painting.

Humbaba
01-20-2019, 10:25 AM
Which of these blacks (with white) would you gentlemen advise for a grissaile ? or; would you rather a mix to make black for under painting.

Blacks dry very slowly, unless there is a black I am not aware of, they are not suitable for Grisailles or underpaintings. Mixing a black using the fast drying pigments is more advisable.

WFMartin
01-20-2019, 11:17 AM
Well, I've use the following tubed Blacks: Ivory, Mars, and Lamp.

With the exception that Lamp Black has about twice the "tinting strength" as either of the other two Blacks, their differences are so slight, that I truly couldn't care less what tubed Black I have on my palette at any given time. I could easily use any of them, including Lamp Black.

All “chromatic blacks” will look atrocious after a few years since pigments have various lightfastness, don’t use this trick in any work which could even accidentally last some time.

That's interesting! But, don't let the "mixed Black" painters, or "chromatic Black" painters see that comment! :lol: :lol:

Once, a chromatic Black enthusiast suggested to me that if I mixed a chromatic Black and did a drawdown test with both it, and a tubed Black, I would notice a decided "difference" between the two. However, just as I suspected....Black is, indeed, Black. The two drawdowns were so identical it was laughable. In what way would a chromatic Black appear to be atrocious after a few years? By your comment, you may be suggesting that it will change its color. Is that correct?

Richard P
01-20-2019, 11:44 AM
Blacks dry very slowly, unless there is a black I am not aware of, they are not suitable for Grisailles or underpaintings. Mixing a black using the fast drying pigments is more advisable.

Have you tried Mars Black? When I thin with Walnut oil alone (which is a slower drying oil than linseed, or using some solvent) it dries in 1 or 2 days:

From a test I did a while ago:
Mars Black (Rembrandt) 2 days
Mars Black (W&N) 1 day
Mars Black (Jacksons) 1 day

RomanB
01-20-2019, 12:10 PM
That's interesting! But, don't let the "mixed Black" painters, or "chromatic Black" painters see that comment! :lol: :lol:

I have a few watercolour paintings which were displayed in direct sunlight by the previous owner. Such effects are very visible on them since the painter used mixtures of blue and brown pigments for shadows. They faded at different speeds and there are spots where the pigment layer was thicker, as a result shadows look like a dirty panther who spilled some inks on itself.

timetobe
01-20-2019, 12:24 PM
Spinel blacks are unreliable - they were not created to be used in artist’s paints. Maybe they’ll last long, maybe not.
Can you explain in what way Spinel's are unreliable? Not looking to disagree, I'm just curious. I've got PBk26 and it makes nice neutral grays when mixed with lead white. It clearly isn't a popular black. I think Gamblin offer it.

David

Delofasht
01-20-2019, 12:33 PM
So much to respond to here... For anyone who doesn't know, watercolor paints expose much more of the pigment to UV and atmospheric conditions, they are much more vulnerable to light, moisture, and other potential dangers of where ever it might be shown. Mixtures of them do not consistently represent what we would see in oil paints as the binder in oil paints (oil) goes a long way toward protecting the pigment from the atmosphere.

Humbaba is referencing older information, which is certainly correct, most of the blacks available at the time of their development. In times past, blacks were all slow driers, and as such required leaving the painting for quite some time to dry before work could be continued on it. Carbon blacks were known to be extremely slow driers and for layered paintings were often suggested to not be used for underpainting. Mars Black is an iron black and was not in existence during the printing of many of the older tomes on oil painting. In fact, to this day it is still not a heavily used color in spite of a number of superior aspects to paints made with it.

We have a habit around here of speaking in definite tones, where something is either definitely right or wrong... but there are a lot of subtle gray areas where things are true in some circumstances and not others. Where some aspects of knowledge may or may not be true anymore, or was based on old information which only applies to what was available at the time. There was a recent thread in Color Mixing and Theory discussing how we cannot even really compare paints of today to 20 years ago often, which is true, some things change, some do not.

To the original poster, I suggest using Mars Black PBk11 for underpainting, I have found it dries better than the other blacks, faster and more reliably. It was developed in the past century, so it hasn't had the history (and thus the representation in literature) as several other blacks, but performs well in tests and the handling qualities are truly outstanding.

sidbledsoe
01-20-2019, 12:36 PM
All “chromatic blacks” will look atrocious after a few years since pigments have various lightfastness, don’t use this trick in any work which could even accidentally last some time.
Think about the other millions of other colors that are mixed with different pigments. If this is a problem, then then it also applies to all mixed pigment colors
I even use the very same pigments to make various blue (ultramarine blue) or brown (raw umber) shades as I may use to make a chromatic black. Gamblin even sells a chromatic black and Torrit gray is a mix of every color that they make.

I know that some claim that they never use a tubed green, so all of their mixed greens are actually chromatic mixed greens and are therefore also prone to horrendous color changes.
What would be the difference in a mixed green changing color because it is a "chromatic green" and not a tubed green?
answer, none, no difference.

I can absolutely verify, from my own testing, that mixed colors do change color in severe lightfast testing, but lightfast testing isn't reality, the reality is that almost all artist colors are lightfast enough, and mine surely are all excellent.
Ultramarine blue and raw umber fade to the point where you can see a horrendous difference? not for me.
No chromatic mixed black that I have made or mixed in decades and decades has ever turned to a horrendous hue, they all remain as dead black as the undertaker.

Delofasht
01-20-2019, 01:33 PM
:lol: Sid, that is a good point and humorously phrased.

RomanB
01-20-2019, 01:45 PM
Can you explain in what way Spinel's are unreliable? Not looking to disagree, I'm just curious. I've got PBk26 and it makes nice neutral grays when mixed with lead white. It clearly isn't a popular black. I think Gamblin offer it.

David

They are designed to be used as industrial pigments, usually with special properties like unordinary UV and IR reflection patterns. However, their long-term stability in oil paint films is never a design goal. Maybe they'll last long, but maybe only several years, you can't say how long. PBk 26 - Manganese Ferrite Black release manganese. It is advantageous to inhibit corrosion, but not so good for oil paint since manganese acts as a drying agent and forms soaps with linseed oil's fatty acids.

Richard P
01-20-2019, 01:48 PM
No chromatic mixed black that I have made or mixed in decades and decades has ever turned to a horrendous hue, they all remain as dead black as the undertaker.

If any lightened you could call the mix Spectral Grey..

Raffless
01-20-2019, 02:03 PM
I am wondering which black pigment might work best for me. I do quite a bit of fine outlining on impasto wet on wet paint (similar to Van Gogh). I am currently using lamp black (Pbk 7) and it work okay, but take forever to dry.

I have mixed my own chromatic blacks from alizarin crimson/phthalo green and ultramarine/burn umber (which do well in mixtures) but don't have the covering power or opacity I am looking for.

I have not tried ivory black (pbk 9) or Mars black (pbk 11).

Any suggestions?

From what ive used.

Mars Black. Dangerous if used in upper layers. Use sparingly. Good for underlayers.
Ivory Black. Great all round black. Very useful. Mixing ,underlayer grisailles or upper layer finishing.
Gamblin Chromatic black. Weak. Very good mixer. Not for underlayers as coverage is poor.

AnnieA
01-20-2019, 02:17 PM
I don't have any info about the best black for your particular use, but I just wanted to mention that if you intend to use a black for mixing in the rest of the painting, it would be wise to make sure to test the tinting strength first. I used a "carbon black" once in a painting, and mixed it in the same proportions with other colors as if it was my usual ivory black. BIG mistake, as it had a lot more tinting - and staying - power. I'm wondering if it may be essentially the same thing as the "Lamp Black" that Bill mentioned above.

contumacious
01-20-2019, 02:34 PM
So much to respond to here... For anyone who doesn't know, watercolor paints expose much more of the pigment to UV and atmospheric conditions, they are much more vulnerable to light, moisture, and other potential dangers of where ever it might be shown. Mixtures of them do not consistently represent what we would see in oil paints as the binder in oil paints (oil) goes a long way toward protecting the pigment from the atmosphere.

Not much of a surprise that the pigments faded - #1 - considering they were watercolors and #2 - they were displayed in direct sunlight.

I have a few watercolour paintings which were displayed in direct sunlight by the previous owner. Such effects are very visible on them since the painter used mixtures of blue and brown pigments for shadows. They faded at different speeds and there are spots where the pigment layer was thicker, as a result shadows look like a dirty panther who spilled some inks on itself.

Do you know what pigments were used in those brown / blue mixes?

sidbledsoe
01-20-2019, 02:55 PM
I have a few watercolour paintings which were displayed in direct sunlight
Of course they faded, that is what is expected and is absolutely normal for storing artwork in direct sunlight, oils will to do the same thing in sunlight.
I have 50 yr old watercolors that are fine, but they would fade if I now put them in sunlight.

Dcam
01-20-2019, 03:27 PM
The Undertaker says use "Spirits" of gum turpentine with your black.
He also likes the "Dead Color" under painting.

RomanB
01-20-2019, 03:27 PM
Not much of a surprise that the pigments faded - #1 - considering they were watercolors and #2 - they were displayed in direct sunlight.



Do you know what pigments were used in those brown / blue mixes?

I don’t have any specialized equipment to determine what particular pigments were used. Guessing by properties like granulation and pigments used in other parts of those paintings, I’d say Phtalocyanine blue and some kind of organic orange, maybe PO 36 which is quite popular here.

Also, this is only an example of changes visible after a few years. Pigments in oil binder could last longer, but result will be comparable if not worse. Using chromatic blacks is irresponsible.

contumacious
01-20-2019, 03:55 PM
Using chromatic blacks is irresponsible.

For the record, I strongly disagree with that statement. I haven't seen any evidence of high permanence pigment mixes visibly changing in over 50 years of painting - unless they were intentionally or unintentionally displayed in direct sunlight or extremely high UV lighting. Every oil paint color, including blacks, will change appearance to some extent in direct sun.

No offense meant, and none taken.

sidbledsoe
01-20-2019, 03:55 PM
Using chromatic blacks is irresponsible.
is using chromatic greens responsible?

contumacious
01-20-2019, 04:05 PM
The Undertaker says use "Spirits" of gum turpentine with your black.
He also likes the "Dead Color" under painting.

Excellent DCam! I literally did LOL. :eek:

I have heard that dead colors can also produce "ghost images" years later, after the painting has "departed". Some people seek to talk to dead colors, using a "medium"!

Richard P
01-20-2019, 04:25 PM
Was the dead layer painted with Caput mortuum? ;)

Dcam
01-20-2019, 04:50 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: Contu and Richard.....

DebWDC
01-20-2019, 05:01 PM
Hi Bokaba – I don’t much paint in impasto, but here are my thoughts about blacks:
I’ve tried ivory and lamp blacks, but much prefer mars black because it dries faster than the other two blacks.

I typically mix 3-5 values of gray (mars black and permalba white or lead white) on the left side of my palette before I start to paint. I want to have the least number of things to have to remember and worry about, so I always use the same black to mix my grays. Chromatic blacks are too much trouble for me in terms of just more things to remember or do, so I don’t use them. I know pretty well how mars black will respond, and so I don’t have to think about it.

I assume that probably most blacks, both single pigment and chromatic, would be lightfast for a few hundred years in normal indoor lighting. (Of course, if you use a non-lightfast or chemically reactive color in your chromatic black, this may fade or change over time; again, just one more thing to worry about)

I suggest you use whatever is easiest for you. And, by the way, don’t take anything we have to say as gospel. Your own goals and practice will guide you.

Just for my own curiosity, could you please tell us how deep your impasto paint is in millimeters or fractions of an inch from the surface of the canvas or panel? I’ve spent a couple hundred hours in the American National Gallery of Art, looking at, among other things, the cracking patterns of blacks, dark greens, and browns.
Cheers –
Deb in Arizona

contumacious
01-20-2019, 05:13 PM
is using chromatic greens responsible?

Not if they are ZOMBIE Green! (Sorry Sid--I could not resist.)


RichardP - I can't believe I forgot to work that one into my first dead colors joke. Good one!

sidbledsoe
01-20-2019, 09:26 PM
I see green zombies and I want to paint them black!

contumacious
01-20-2019, 09:56 PM
I see green zombies and I want to paint them black!



Still chuckling...

Pinguino
01-21-2019, 12:45 AM
I don't have any info about the best black for your particular use, but I just wanted to mention that if you intend to use a black for mixing in the rest of the painting, it would be wise to make sure to test the tinting strength first. I used a "carbon black" once in a painting, and mixed it in the same proportions with other colors as if it was my usual ivory black. BIG mistake, as it had a lot more tinting - and staying - power. I'm wondering if it may be essentially the same thing as the "Lamp Black" that Bill mentioned above.
"Carbon Black" is probably "Lamp Black" as you surmised. This is despite the fact that the material probably does not come from lamps, and despite the fact that "Ivory Black" (which no longer comes from ivory) gets its black color from carbon.

On the other hand, I have no doubt that Mars Black comes from Mars. :lol:

Incidentally, carbon-based blacks are slow drying because they contain anti-siccative contaminants, such as Phenol.

MarcF
01-21-2019, 01:07 AM
What is a “chromatic black”, what is the other type that’s better, and why?
I’ve been using Ivory Black and I also have some lamp black in my small artist’s loft starter kit. The ivory seems shiner out of the tube, but as far as mixing, I can’t see any difference.

RomanB
01-21-2019, 01:38 AM
What is a “chromatic black”, what is the other type that’s better, and why?

They are mixtures of two or three opposite coloured pigments. Phtalo Green + Alizarin Crimson, Phtalo Blue + Benzimidazalone Orange and so on.

sidbledsoe
01-21-2019, 08:14 AM
Any suggestions?

If you want to, use Lamp black and fix your slow drying issue with an alkyd medium.
This is despite the fact that the material probably does not come from lamps
It is the same foul pigment, they may not collect the pigment from individual lamps, but it is the very same filthy soot that makes chimney sweeps get those dirty hands, faces, and clothes.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Jan-2019/112587-images.jpeg

Raffless
01-21-2019, 11:27 AM
If you want to, use Lamp black and fix your slow drying issue with an alkyd medium.

It is the same foul pigment, they may not collect the pigment from individual lamps, but it is the very same filthy soot that makes chimney sweeps get those dirty hands, faces, and clothes.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Jan-2019/112587-images.jpeg

'me ol' bamboo'. Cleaning up the rooftops of London. God bless Dick!:)

french.painter
01-21-2019, 03:58 PM
Vantablack.
What else?

Ha, yes, I remember : a sympathetic millionaire guy has bought the right to forbid you using this perfect pigment. This stupid story could be titled "Art killed by Greed"...

AnnieA
01-21-2019, 06:41 PM
Was the dead layer painted with Caput mortuum? ;)
No, it was Mummy. :D

Roman, it's just counterintuitive that you could mix two paints with "excellent" (LF 1) lightfast ratings to make a chromatic black, but the mixture would then not have the same "excellent" lightfast rating. There's just no reason it would work that way. As others have stated, watercolors behave differently, but an additional potential factor might be if those watercolor mixtures contained Alizarin, which is known to be highly fugitive?

RomanB
01-22-2019, 04:44 AM
Roman, it's just counterintuitive that you could mix two paints with "excellent" (LF 1) lightfast ratings to make a chromatic black, but the mixture would then not have the same "excellent" lightfast rating. There's just no reason it would work that way. As others have stated, watercolors behave differently, but an additional potential factor might be if those watercolor mixtures contained Alizarin, which is known to be highly fugitive?

Lightfastness is a tricky characteristic and mostly it specifies when a difference between fresh and aged paint samples becomes noticeable during special tests. Those tests are more oriented at industrial needs than at art. When you read that the color won’t change noticeably in 100 years under museum conditions this very possible could be true, but most “young” paintings are not exhibited in dimly lit rooms with perfect atmosphere. Also, two pigments rated as ASTM I could still age with various speed and in various ways.

I don’t think if the painter used Alizarin Crimson, most probably he didn’t. But most organic pigments are not really lightfast in the long run. Some Perylenes are good, some Quinacridones and Phtalocyanines too, but there are literally dozens of unreliable pigments on the market.

TomMather
01-22-2019, 08:43 AM
I never use blacks right out of the tube, mixing my own with ultramarine blue and burnt umber, sometimes alizarin crimson. I’ve never noticed any of my chromatic blacks fading, either, although I sometimes have to oil-out dark tones due to sinking in.

I occasionally use tube blacks to paint the sides of canvases, and my biggest impression from doing that is the blacks take forever to dry. It’s good to know that Mars black dries faster, and I’ll try to remember that.

AnnieA
01-22-2019, 12:51 PM
Lightfastness is a tricky characteristic and mostly it specifies when a difference between fresh and aged paint samples becomes noticeable during special tests. Those tests are more oriented at industrial needs than at art. When you read that the color won’t change noticeably in 100 years under museum conditions this very possible could be true, but most “young” paintings are not exhibited in dimly lit rooms with perfect atmosphere. Also, two pigments rated as ASTM I could still age with various speed and in various ways.

I don’t think if the painter used Alizarin Crimson, most probably he didn’t. But most organic pigments are not really lightfast in the long run. Some Perylenes are good, some Quinacridones and Phtalocyanines too, but there are literally dozens of unreliable pigments on the market.
Roman, can you point me to some reputable research to back up your claims? They differ substantially from my understanding of what other experts in the field say.

Pinguino
01-22-2019, 04:17 PM
Annie, keep in mind that paints for houses and automobiles need to withstand not only UV, but very large changes in temperature, as well as rain. For example, Ultramarine Blue is not normally used in such paints, even though it is well-suited to artist paints (even when not under museum conditions).

As for a mixed chromatic black: Even if both components are very lightfast, they may not age at the same rate. Individually, a red could become slightly less red, or a green could become slightly less green; either way, the artwork won't be affected too much. But if the aging rate doesn't match, then a gray will drift to either reddish or greenish. In this sense, the composite could be rated as less lightfast than its components. Think of using such a mixed black to create a stormy, gray sky.

RomanB
01-23-2019, 02:19 AM
Roman, can you point me to some reputable research to back up your claims? They differ substantially from my understanding of what other experts in the field say.

Do you know about handprint.com (https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html) and its massive database with independent test results? Here is a short explanation (https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html#salt) of issues with lightfastness ratings. Also there are several lightfastness test results made by artists on our forum: 1 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540692), 2 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=827112)... Here (http://www.artiscreation.com) is a large collection of information about pigments. You can judge yourself if organic pigments are mostly fugitive. There is no contradiction with what paint manufacturers say, the problem is with proper meaning of their ratings.

sidbledsoe
01-23-2019, 06:37 AM
an additional potential factor might be if those watercolor mixtures contained Alizarin, which is known to be highly fugitive?
according to the experts I should have some colors missing in action, but my alizarin crimsons are doing just fine and dandy now for over 50 years, how many years dead must I be before I see any change? apparently more dead than Vermeer and his red hat girl.

french.painter
01-23-2019, 08:14 AM
Roman may have not performed extensive lightfastness tests, but he can still be right. Most pigment ratings rely on BWS tests, i-e "Blue Wool Scale". This lightfastness scale was originally created for fabric dyes. So an 8BWS (the best rating) only means the dye remains visually unchanged after a few months under Florida's sun. We are far from artists'requirements of colors standing for centuries...

Raffless
01-23-2019, 11:00 AM
according to the experts I should have some colors missing in action, but my alizarin crimsons are doing just fine and dandy now for over 50 years, how many years dead must I be before I see any change? apparently more dead than Vermeer and his red hat girl.

But you never open your curtains Count Dracula. :lol:

Only kidding Sid :)

sidbledsoe
01-23-2019, 11:24 AM
But you never open your curtains
that is true, it is also cold and dusty but I let it be, I prefer to live in squalor like a real artist :) .

Richard P
01-23-2019, 12:37 PM
Alizarin crimson in masstone is a lot more lightfast than in tints with white according to Golden's testing. If you used Alizarin Crimson with non-white mixtures or as a glaze I suspect if will do quite well.

Raffless
01-23-2019, 03:48 PM
that is true, it is also cold and dusty but I let it be, I prefer to live in squalor like a real artist :) .

...in Transylvania?:)

Dcam
01-23-2019, 03:59 PM
Just a Pigment of your imagination.

Richard P
01-23-2019, 04:32 PM
Groan!

Delofasht
01-23-2019, 04:36 PM
That is this thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1459758), and mine isn't quite dark enough to be considered black. :lol:

AnnieA
01-24-2019, 01:34 PM
Do you know about handprint.com (https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html) and its massive database with independent test results? Here is a short explanation (https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html#salt) of issues with lightfastness ratings. Also there are several lightfastness test results made by artists on our forum: 1 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540692), 2 (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=827112)... Here (http://www.artiscreation.com) is a large collection of information about pigments. You can judge yourself if organic pigments are mostly fugitive. There is no contradiction with what paint manufacturers say, the problem is with proper meaning of their ratings.
Ah, now I see what the problem may be. Bruce MacEvoy, the creator of the handprint site, specifically says this:
Lightfastness ratings of oil or acrylic paints are not a reliable guide to the permanence of watercolors made with the same pigment, because pigments last longer inside the protective coatings of oil or acrylic vehicles than when left bare on paper with an irregular coat of gum arabic.
So, just as one should not rely on lightfastness ratings of oil or acrylic paints to understand lightfastness issues for watercolors, the reverse is true. One should not use lightfastness ratings for watercolors to make judgements about the lightfastness of oil paints.

And you're right, the Color of Art Database is an amazing resource. It rates ultramarine blue, burnt sienna, pthalo green as the most lightfast (ASTM rating of I). As I mentioned earlier, alizarin red, another common ingredient in artist-mixed chromatic blacks, is considered fugitive. As far as I have understood in the past, that fugitive rating applied to oil paints too, giving it III (ASMT Oil & Acrylic)
V-IV (ASMT Watercolor) but who knows...Sid may have paints that defy the ASTM. :D

AnnieA
01-24-2019, 06:41 PM
To be clear, when I gave the lightfastness ratings from the Color of Art Database for ultra blue, burnt sienna and pthalo green, I should have mentioned that those ratings were specifically for oil paint.

And while lightfastness ratings may not be fixed, unchanging things, as MacEvoy notes, that should apply equally to individual paints as well as mixed chromatic blacks, shouldn't it? So why is there so much debate here about chromatic blacks, when the same principle applies to every paint pigment?

The only problem I can see with them is if one used alizarin crimson (except for Sid's special alizarin, of course :wink: ). And that problem can be easily remedied by switching to one of the more lightfast alizarin substitutes, such as the ones offered by Gamblin or W&N.

sidbledsoe
01-24-2019, 07:52 PM
Sid may have paints that defy the ASTM. :D
They agree perfectly with ASTM ratings. The difference I stated is in regard to real world performance. Accelerated lightfastness testing tests only one single parameter, it tests how well pigments hold up under extremely potent exposure to UV light. In the real world, paintings are not stored as such, therefore they perform differently in the real world, and not in a manner that even correlates directly to lightfastness testing. The ASTM knows this, the paint companies know this, just ask Sarah about it, for instance, here is a quote from Sarah from Golden:
ASTM Lightfastness testing is not meant to be predictive in the narrow sense that a result of Delta 3.8, for example, will mean unequivocally that a similar swatch of color on a particular work of art will display that degree of change after x number of years. There are simply too many variables at play, and besides, only a handful of pigments have even been around long enough for that type of precise correlation to be remotely possible. Keep in mind that ASTM Lightfastness testing is extremely harsh, with colors being exposed to very high levels of UV and visible light in a very compact, short period of time.
I have found an absolute dearth of, more precisely, a complete denial of these facts, and of this understanding, among fellow artists. And this post, nor anything anyone else posts about it will ever change that.
They just simply will not accept it, or they simply do not understand it, I am not sure which it is.
Unless you have stored your paintings in direct sunlight, or plan to do so, then don't count on any of this particular discussion about mixing pigments to be of any value whatsoever. And it most certainly would not apply singularly to black mixes, but it would apply to all mixed oil paints.
But if in fact, you really are wanting to stick them in direct sunlight, and leave them there, then yes, I fully agree that not all normal artists pigments will hold up very well. You should probably rethink this entire artist oil paints and just start using only exterior house paints instead.
(except for Sid's special alizarin, of course :wink: )
It is unfortunate that most do think this is a joke, and do not understand the role and the limitations of lightfastness testing, but rather possess an unwavering misunderstanding.
So there is no need to consider this a joke, nor false information, it is the absolute truth, and it is neither unusual, nor an aberration at all. I mentioned the Vermeer Red Hat Girl that was painted hundreds of years ago with a similar "highly fugitive" alizarin, but it remains just like new, and there are many countless other examples that are real world truth, and they are not brutally roasted test samples. I own three paintings by a listed artist that used alizarin crimson genuine, from back in the early seventies and they are just as blazing red now as the day that they were painted.

AnnieA
01-25-2019, 01:59 AM
They agree perfectly with ASTM ratings. The difference I stated is in regard to real world performance. Accelerated lightfastness testing tests only one single parameter, it tests how well pigments hold up under extremely potent exposure to UV light. In the real world, paintings are not stored as such, therefore they perform differently in the real world, and not in a manner that even correlates directly to lightfastness testing. The ASTM knows this, the paint companies know this, just ask Sarah about it, for instance, here is a quote from Sarah from Golden:

I have found an absolute dearth of, more precisely, a complete denial of these facts, and of this understanding, among fellow artists. And this post, nor anything anyone else posts about it will ever change that.
They just simply will not accept it, or they simply do not understand it, I am not sure which it is.
Unless you have stored your paintings in direct sunlight, or plan to do so, then don't count on any of this particular discussion about mixing pigments to be of any value whatsoever. And it most certainly would not apply singularly to black mixes, but it would apply to all mixed oil paints.
But if in fact, you really are wanting to stick them in direct sunlight, and leave them there, then yes, I fully agree that not all normal artists pigments will hold up very well. You should probably rethink this entire artist oil paints and just start using only exterior house paints instead.

It is unfortunate that most do think this is a joke, and do not understand the role and the limitations of lightfastness testing, but rather possess an unwavering misunderstanding.
So there is no need to consider this a joke, nor false information, it is the absolute truth, and it is neither unusual, nor an aberration at all. I mentioned the Vermeer Red Hat Girl that was painted hundreds of years ago with a similar "highly fugitive" alizarin, but it remains just like new, and there are many countless other examples that are real world truth, and they are not brutally roasted test samples. I own three paintings by a listed artist that used alizarin crimson genuine, from back in the early seventies and they are just as blazing red now as the day that they were painted.
I'm very sorry if I offended you, Sid. The only point I was really trying to make was that chromatic blacks aren't likely to create the horrible problems that were claimed earlier, at least not any more horrible (if any do develop problems) than the two paints with which they've been mixed.

Antonin
01-25-2019, 03:12 AM
So there is no need to consider this a joke, nor false information, it is the absolute truth, and it is neither unusual, nor an aberration at all. I mentioned the Vermeer Red Hat Girl that was painted hundreds of years ago with a similar "highly fugitive" alizarin, but it remains just like new, and there are many countless other examples that are real world truth, and they are not brutally roasted test samples. I own three paintings by a listed artist that used alizarin crimson genuine, from back in the early seventies and they are just as blazing red now as the day that they were painted.
Girl with a Red Hat's red fur trim has had a solid underpainting of straight Vermillion and Vermillion mixed with white. The natural Madder (which is somewhat more lightfast than Alizarin Crimson) glazed over the bright areas and the shadows has probably faded and been "renewed" a couple of times. The same thing happens with the impermanent transparent yellow buckthorn and weld lakes that the Dutch loved to use.
In my youth I was a guard at a leading art museum (who shall remain nameless) and I saw first hand the liberties that picture restorers allowed themselves (at least in the early 1980's) once a painting's varnish had been removed and the blanched and damaged surface of the painting had been exposed.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/25-Jan-2019/1976029-Girl_with_a_Red_Hat.jpg

Richard P
01-25-2019, 04:01 AM
I think the only way we are ever going to know for sure about pigments and when or when not they are lightfast is when computer technology gets so advanced that we can simulate accurately interactions with UV in all different conditions.

sidbledsoe
01-25-2019, 10:51 AM
No worries Annie, I was expressing my opinion of what is happening with the lightfastness testing fears, that are now making people afraid of even mixing different colors together, and I agree with you that this alleged condemnation of chromatic blacks is off the hook.

french.painter
01-26-2019, 04:53 PM
BWS is OK for fabric dyes control, but not for artist's pigments. Not the same lightfastness requirement level.

Harold Roth
01-26-2019, 05:32 PM
The natural Madder (which is somewhat more lightfast than Alizarin Crimson) glazed over the bright areas and the shadows has probably faded and been "renewed" a couple of times.
I have always felt suspicious of the red in that painting. It makes sense to me that it has been repeatedly "renewed."

Pinguino
01-26-2019, 07:05 PM
I have always felt suspicious of the red in that painting. It makes sense to me that it has been repeatedly "renewed."
If you look carefully at the hat's sweatband under magnification, you will see a little tag that reads "Wal-Mart." :lol:

sidbledsoe
01-27-2019, 12:23 AM
I mentioned Vermeer's Girl with the Red Hat because I have read that it has been well preserved, but that does not guaruntee someone has not tampered with it, but as I mentioned, she isn't really needed to support the longevity seen in many alizarin/rose madder examples, including my own 50 year old paintings.
Madder lakes, especially those that contain little or no purpurin have been well preserved in numerous European easel paintings, especially where it was employed as a glaze with another similar hue. Glazed over vermilion madder lake produces an intense cherry red unachievable by direct mixture of paints. Vermeer used this glaze in the plumed hat of his painting The Girl with a Red Hat and in the satin gown in The Girl with a Glass of Wine, both very well preserved.
Vermeer used rose madder in many of his paintings, glazes, mixtures with other colors, etc.
Plenty of lake, plant, and animal derived colors do fade nicely though, yellows, weld, and cochineal are a few that have faded in Vermeer and others works.

Gigalot
01-27-2019, 01:42 AM
Mars Black or Lamp Black can preserve much better than Alizarin. We have strong and lightfast pure Black pigments and I have no reason to use fugitive pigments for that. At least, I cam mix gray with Green earth or chromium oxide and iron oxides or manganese violet. For pure deep black I can try Prussian blue mixed with Lamp black. Cobalt green deep +lamp Black is fast drying mixed black.

sidbledsoe
01-27-2019, 07:09 PM
I use all strong lightfast paints for everything, not just darks.
If the wardens said that I must only use a black, and forbade me from mixing any darks or "chromatic blacks" then it would take away the enjoyment of painting from me, robbing me of the all the fun.