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View Full Version : St Petersburg Master Class Oils, Langridge, and Maimeri Puro


Richard P
01-11-2019, 02:01 PM
Hi all,

Just to let you know that Jackson's website are now selling these 3 new oil ranges..

Must tell myself.. I DO NOT NEED ANY MORE PAINT..

:)

Richard

Richard P
01-11-2019, 02:05 PM
The St Petersburg Master Class Oils range does have PY32 Strontium Yellow for those that are interested.

RomanB
01-11-2019, 03:28 PM
The St Petersburg Master Class Oils range does have PY32 Strontium Yellow for those that are interested.

The pigment is so nice and delicate. I have some of it in raw form. Sadly, it isn't very permanent.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 03:45 PM
The pigment is so nice and delicate. I have some of it in raw form. Sadly, it isn't very permanent.

Where did you hear that PY 32 not very permanent? Several manufacturers list it as completely lightfast (with possible minimal shifting toward green).

savras
01-11-2019, 03:54 PM
Where did you hear that PY 32 not very permanent? Several manufacturers list it as completely lightfast (with possible minimal shifting toward green). Which is very definition of being impermanent.

From ArtIsCreation:

may turn greenish due to the partial conversion to chromium oxide

source (http://www.artiscreation.com/yellow.html#PY32)

RomanB
01-11-2019, 04:17 PM
Where did you hear that PY 32 not very permanent? Several manufacturers list it as completely lightfast (with possible minimal shifting toward green).

From the classic treatise (http://chem21.info/page/162195028076125043082142054218213072227161046131/) "Chemistry and Technology of Pigments" by Belen'kiy & Riskin.

Delofasht
01-12-2019, 12:03 AM
Guess you guys did not read the pigment manufacturers information on the pigment then... the warning about possibility of it turning green is an effect caused by certain chemical exposure. It is still considered lightfast because very specific sets of variables are required to cause the color to change.

Want to know another yellow considered highly lightfast, but in fact will darken in some media or fade when exposed to excessive light? PY 35, happens when the pigment becomes exposed by remove of the binder through the use of solvents commonly used in oil painting. :lol: Nothing is permanent or lightfast if the conditions are not right for it, I just suggest we stop trying to make everything out to be less than what it is.

From a chemical analysis point of view, PY 32 seems to be a solid color, though its most common use seems to be in industrial coatings which often get exposed to various highly unfavorable conditions (radiation, corrosive and caustic chemicals, and many others).

bhindi
01-12-2019, 12:26 AM
@Richard P - Thanks for the info. Great that Jackson's is offering Masterclass.

I use PY32 and have not noticed any color shift in 2 years. It is a very nice lemony yellow.

RomanB
01-12-2019, 10:10 AM
Guess you guys did not read the pigment manufacturers information on the pigment then... the warning about possibility of it turning green is an effect caused by certain chemical exposure. It is still considered lightfast because very specific sets of variables are required to cause the color to change.

There is a Russian State Standard GOST 11826-77 (http://docs.cntd.ru/document/1200019389) for artist's oil paints, a document similar to ISO and ASTM standards. It states that Strontium Yellow oil paint is marginally lightfast and changes color significantly after 5 months of exposure to direct sunlight, from May to September. Manufacturers could make it better than this standard demands, but no means are able to make the paint completely lightfast.

bhindi
01-12-2019, 10:36 AM
Is this the row of information you are referring to?
There are 3 columns with temperature information. How do you read this table?

Delofasht
01-12-2019, 10:58 AM
Roman, it appears that your document is over 40 years old... pigment technologies have improved quite a bit since then and the pigment that was tested for that document may well have been of a poor quality in itself. These issues arise in ASTM and ISO standards as well, except that the standards are revised a bit more often usually.

Further exploration has many manufacturers now days claiming it at a very high lightfastness rating (usually 8 on the BWS).

RomanB
01-12-2019, 10:59 AM
Is this the row of information you are referring to?
There are 3 columns with temperature information. How do you read this table?

Yes. Columns are:

| Paint's name | Product classification code | Lightfastness or yellowing for white paints | Maximal particle size, in micrometers | Shear stress limit at 20 2 C, in Pa*10^-2 | Ropiness at 20 2 C, not more than, in millimetres | Drying time at 20 2 C, in days to degrees of drying 1 and 5, not more than | Adhesion, not less than, in mm |

It has one X in lightfastness column, later it is specified that paints with one X are marginally lightfast and methods of determining this quality are described.

RomanB
01-12-2019, 11:18 AM
Roman, it appears that your document is over 40 years old...

The Standard has three revisions and the last one is not so old, but I doubt that pigment's properties changed significantly. Other Russian paint manufacturers also mark it as marginally lightfast, with one *. Gamma (https://cdn2.static1-sima-land.com/items/2344592/0/1600.jpg?v=1508229469), Podol'sk (https://cdn2.static1-sima-land.com/items/1157374/0/1600.jpg?v=0). Maybe there is a method to improve its lightfastness, like adding Tinuvin light stabiliser, I don't know if they use it.

bhindi
01-12-2019, 11:34 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but is this row referring to Viridian Green? It has only one X so it would mean it is only marginally lightfast. In the artiscreation website, PG18 is mentioned to be quite lightfast. This document has no reference to pigment ids, only names. Is the lightfastness based on the blue wool scale? Or is it some other test?

It appears that there are some differences in lightfastness ratings between the two references.

RomanB
01-12-2019, 12:03 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but is this row referring to Viridian Green?

No, it is PG 8 Nitroso Green (http://www.artiscreation.com/green.html#PG8). Here (http://www.nevskayapalitra.ru/brands/master_class) you can compare some commercial names with pigment numbers, sometimes it helps, but not much. For example, Volkonskoite a natural mineral which mostly consists of PG 17 Chrome Oxide Green, yet they write it as PG 23 Green Earth. It is indeed Green Earth, but not the same as Glauconite or other minerals.

bhindi
01-12-2019, 12:10 PM
No, it is PG 8 Nitroso Green (http://www.artiscreation.com/green.html#PG8). How did you know? It translates to Viridian Green with no mention of chemical name. Is it mentioned anywhere on the paper that the pigment name is coincident with the Masterclass Oil Paint names?

Thanks for the tabular information. :)

RomanB
01-12-2019, 12:35 PM
>How did you know?

From Nikitin's encyclopaedia of pigments (https://books.google.ru/books?id=APHTDAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA250&dq=%22%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%22&hl=ru&pg=PA251#v=onepage&q=%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%8F&f=false).

bhindi
01-12-2019, 12:53 PM
Thanks, RomanB.

Richard P
01-12-2019, 02:08 PM
I just read that the St Peterburg Master Class Oils range uses two resins in their paint.. That might alter the decision for some people!

RomanB
01-12-2019, 02:43 PM
I just read that the St Peterburg Master Class Oils range uses two resins in their paint.. That might alter the decision for some people!

They use penta-esters of sunflower oil fatty acids as binder in some of their paints, mostly in whites. The substance is, so to say, half way between traditional drying oils and alkyds. If you want, I could find 20-years old paint swatches, it yellows considerably less than linseed oil.

Richard P
01-12-2019, 02:48 PM
Roman: You are describing a modified oil binder are you not?

According to Jackson's they use two resins too:

Produced in Russia by the St Petersburg Company, maker of the popular White Nights watercolours, Master Class Oil Paints are artist quality paints made from high quality pigments and binders with the addition of natural resins - dammar and mastic.

RomanB
01-12-2019, 03:11 PM
Roman: You are describing a modified oil binder are you not?

According to Jackson's they use two resins too:

Produced in Russia by the St Petersburg Company, maker of the popular White Nights watercolours, Master Class Oil Paints are artist quality paints made from high quality pigments and binders with the addition of natural resins - dammar and mastic.

Perhaps, in Russian they are called "пентамасляные краски" and are considered to be distinct both from drying oils and alkyds.

As of Damar and Mastic, I could ask the manufacturer directly if you are really interested.

Richard P
01-12-2019, 03:13 PM
It's ok, I have more than enough paints already. :)

It was for other people's benefit that I mentioned it.

bhindi
01-13-2019, 01:37 AM
The pigment is so nice and delicate. I have some of it in raw form. Do you mean you have strontium chromate powder? India produces a lot of that pigment but exports it for use in commercial paints. I have a sample packet with me but the supplier told me it was "chemical grade". I never ground it because I thought the pigment size may be too large for oil paint use. Can you share any specs for what you have and if you were able to grind them into usable oil paints?

RomanB
01-13-2019, 02:08 AM
Do you mean you have strontium chromate powder? India produces a lot of that pigment but exports it for use in commercial paints. I have a sample packet with me but the supplier told me it was "chemical grade". I never ground it because I thought the pigment size may be too large for oil paint use. Can you share any specs for what you have and if you were able to grind them into usable oil paints?

It is sold here as artists pigment (https://hobbyti.com/catalog/kraski_khudozhestvennye_dekorativnye_pasty_aerozoli/pigmenty_khudozhestvennye/emti/pigment_strontsianovaya_zheltaya_15g_emti/). It mixes well with linseed oil using a glass muller and a glass slab. Precautions should be taken since the pigment is not harmless, so proper ventilation and personal protective equipment are necessary, and waste should be treated as containing this substance if its regulated in your country.

bhindi
01-13-2019, 02:27 AM
Check out my stash. Been here several months. I'm actually a little nervous to work with it for the hazard reason.

RomanB
01-14-2019, 11:13 AM
I just read that the St Peterburg Master Class Oils range uses two resins in their paint.. That might alter the decision for some people!

Richard P, I've asked them and they answered. Here is my rough translation of their answer:

-- We'll ask Jacksonart to actualise their description. There is no Mastic in our paint's composition. Aside from high-quality pigments and specially treated linseed oil our paints contain Dammar and beeswax. Dammar enhances adhesion of paint with ground layers, preserves its saturation and brightness after drying. Beeswax imparts soft, paste-like consistency and prevents cracking of paint layer after drying.

Richard P
01-14-2019, 11:32 AM
Ah ok, thanks for doing that :)

Personally I'm not keen on a paint containing resin or wax, but others will have a different option.

Gigalot
01-17-2019, 02:36 PM
Strontium Yellow is very lightfast, but has some tendency to match sulfur yellow color under strong light after 4 years of exposition. But it's permanency is far superior than PY3. You can use it to mix green color....

Richard P
01-17-2019, 03:49 PM
It only rates 1/3 stars on the St Petersburg Master Class colour chart though.

Gigalot
01-18-2019, 12:28 PM
It only rates 1/3 stars on the St Petersburg Master Class colour chart though.
Actually, 8 years of my own intensive testing is enough for me to stop any worrying about this PY32 pigment..:)

Richard P
01-18-2019, 03:42 PM
BTW: Is the brand as highly pigmented as Williamsburg, Old Holland, etc.. the prices are pretty cheap so I suspect it's more like W&N, Rembrandt?

Gigalot
01-19-2019, 08:44 AM
BTW: Is the brand as highly pigmented as Williamsburg, Old Holland, etc.. the prices are pretty cheap so I suspect it's more like W&N, Rembrandt?
I think, that Master Class paints are highly optimized for comfortable use. 90% Russian artists are thinking, that Master Class is best. For me, such paint need to be diluted with some medium because they are much concentrated.

Richard P
01-19-2019, 11:39 AM
Are they stiff like Old Holland as well then?

Gigalot
01-20-2019, 09:07 AM
Are they stiff like Old Holland as well then?
Master class pains aren't equal in stiffness. Sorry, I don't have any tube of Old Holland to compare with Master Class. But Master Class is always OK for me. (Phthalo I bought in student line Sonet)

bokaba
02-07-2019, 11:25 PM
I have not tried the Lanridge, but the Maimeri is pretty good quality in my opinion and offers some hard to find pigments. I have only tried the Master Class Strontium Yellow (only manufacturer as far as I know). I found the paint rather thin and weakly pigmented (at least that color). Master Class has solvent and resins (mastick and damar) in it as well. They do have unusual colors not offered by western paint manufacturers though.

Dragon Wyrm
02-10-2019, 07:57 AM
I like Langridge, but then again they are the cheapest proffesional quality paints where I live (Australia!). I like the descriptions on the back of the tubes (e.g. consistency, drying time, pigment loading).

I tried only one Meimeri Puro (transparentish earth colour), I enjoyed it.

Never tried the St Petersburg.

JCannon
02-10-2019, 09:07 AM
Dragon: Langridge is the cheapest? Wow. So, is the high-priced spread better?

I cannot imagine higher pigmentation.

Richard P
02-10-2019, 11:29 AM
I thought Langridge was expensive, but extreemly pigmented. Equivalent to top-range brands like Michael Holding, Old Holland, etc..

JustAStudent
02-10-2019, 07:41 PM
I have a tube of master class orange cadmium.
At 46ml, it weighs 88g after very little use... I'd estimate 43-44ml left.
My Grumbacher pretested 37ml is 84g full.

So slightly less dense than grumbacher, but not a night and day difference. Definitely more pigment than a student grade.

Brian Firth
02-13-2019, 01:33 PM
Regarding the lightfastness of the Master Class Strontium Yellow PY32, I tested it for a year in a South facing window and it held up very well. The right side of the swatch was the exposed side, the left is the control swatch.

Delofasht
02-13-2019, 04:50 PM
Thank you Brian for that test swatch, it matches what I have read regarding its usage in a number of fields. This seems to be like Prussian Blue, which has multiple variants in the pigment quality, and thus its lightfastness rating can vary quite a bit. Many colors exhibit this effect, but some are just accepted in spite of deficiencies, like Cadmium Yellows which tend to darken slightly in some environments. Acceptable for some but not others seems a double standard far too frequently and so many pigments end up not seeing use just based on their limitations. Meanwhile we have tons of Alizarin Crimson genuine everywhere, even though it performs less well than many other pigments that are not sourced simply because of the same problems of longevity. Makes little sense really.

Dragon Wyrm
02-13-2019, 05:20 PM
JCannon
In the shop I buy my paints from it is the cheapest "profesional grade" paint. I will use titanium white (TW) and cadmium red (CR) for comparions, using only the artist grade paint found at the stores near me. The prices will be in australian dollars and rounded up.

Langridge: TW: $12, CR: $55
Art Spectrum: TW: $13, CR: $39
Gamblin: TW: $17, CR: $50
Michael Harding: TW: $20, CR: $87
Rembrandt: TW: $19, CR: $55
Winsor and Newton: TW: $18, CR: $58

From online, quick search from Australian retailers:
Old Holand: TW: $18, CR: $80
Maimeri Puro: TW: $26, CR: $68

Richard P
Remember I live in Australia so all the other top manufacturers need to be imported from overseas. In my opinion Langridge is equivalent to those brands you mentioned.

For me Langridge is the best value of professional grade paints (Micheal Harding, Old Holand, etc.). Furthermore it competes favourably with artist grade (Gamblin, Art Spectrum, W&N, ect.). The bigest disadvantage is a comparably lower amount of pigments available.