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Richard P
01-11-2019, 04:25 AM
What would you choose?

A high chroma and lightfast true purple
A transparent white without the issues with zinc white
A white like lead white that strengthens paint films without any toxicity
An opaque and completely non-toxic bright yellow

Or something else? :)

kinasi
01-11-2019, 04:39 AM
Probably a non-toxic opaque bright orange or deep yellow.

In yellow you can find PY74 which is opaque enough for me. But in terms of oranges there are very few choices, only PY65 is a bit opaque, PO73 and PY83 is too transparent I find.

RomanB
01-11-2019, 05:15 AM
Lead White analogue, since all the rest are real.

High chroma and lightfast true purple is PV 49 Cobalt Violet Brilliant Light (https://shop.kremerpigments.com/en/pigments/pigments-of-modern-age/cobalt-pigments/5201/cobalt-violet-brilliant-light)

Transparent white without issues with Zinc White is Strontium Titanate which is available as Holbeinís Ceramic White (https://www.dickblick.com/items/00425-1394/)

Opaque and non-toxic bright yellow is PY 184 Bismuth Vanadate (https://shop.kremerpigments.com/en/5116/bismuth-vanadate-yellow-lemon).

kinasi
01-11-2019, 05:22 AM
Opaque and non-toxic bright yellow is PY 184 Bismuth Vanadate (https://shop.kremerpigments.com/en/5116/bismuth-vanadate-yellow-lemon).

Well, Bismuth Vanadium is not non-toxic. Vanadium is a toxic substance. Lots of lawsuits of Chinese steel workers who got sick from making steel alloy and were exposed to vanadium all day.

The max daily intake of Vanadium that is non-toxic is a few micrograms. Micrograms. Larger exposure to Vanadium is dangerous.

It's not a good replacement for cadmium because it doesn't solve anything.

Golden:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2019/1558522-1558522-fffhfh.jpg

Richard P
01-11-2019, 05:44 AM
I've read that Strontium Titanate is not as transparent as Zinc, but I've not tried it myself.

Looking at ciecam measurements on Handprint.com it doesn't look like PV 49 Cobalt Violet Brilliant Light is as high chroma as PR122, or other reds, or indeed blues and yellows. There seems to be no very high chroma purple/violet colours, whether this is due to the way we perceive colour I am not sure.

Bismuth Vanadate is still toxic to some extent.

I have read that PY74 is not as lightfast as pigments like PY154 (which is more transparent). Also Cadmiums are lightfast, but not weatherfast (don't expose to moisture).

RomanB
01-11-2019, 06:53 AM
Well, Bismuth Vanadium is not non-toxic. Vanadium is a toxic substance. Lots of lawsuits of Chinese steel workers who got sick from making steel alloy and were exposed to vanadium all day.

LD50 value for Bismuth Vanadate is over 5000 mg/kg in rats, ordinary table salt (NaCl) is more toxic with 3300 mg/kg. Definitely, it is possible to die from eating too much salt and it contains Sodium which spontaneously explodes in contact with water (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMDgCpoLw2c) and Chlorine which is sometimes used as a weapon of mass destruction (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0nFL7ZGgmc). However, it doesn't mean that we cannot deal with table salt, or that its properties is just a simple sum of properties of its constituents.

kinasi
01-11-2019, 07:36 AM
LD50 value for Bismuth Vanadate is over 5000 mg/kg in rats, ordinary table salt (NaCl) is more toxic with 3300 mg/kg.

Methanol has an LD50 of 5000 mg/kg too. It has low acute toxicity in a rat. But you don't want to start ingesting methanol, it would end very very badly for you.

Table salt gets filtered out through your kidneys on a daily basis. Heavy metals build up in human tissue over time. You can't compare acute table salt toxicity to long term exposure to heavy metals.

Bismuth and Vanadium are both heavy metals, and neither is "non-toxic" like you claimed, especially not Vanadium.

Bismuth Vanadium simply doesn't offer any benefit over cadmium. It's still a heavy metal, it's still a hazardous substance, and it's very expensive as a pigment.

Raffless
01-11-2019, 09:04 AM
What would you choose?

A high chroma and lightfast true purple
A transparent white without the issues with zinc white
A white like lead white that strengthens paint films without any toxicity
An opaque and completely non-toxic bright yellow

Or something else? :)

I'd go for a Cadmium Yellow replacement Richard. Its the one that struggles for parity with weaker alternatives.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 10:41 AM
YinMn Blue... that is all I need and currently cannot find on the market. It fills the only spot on my palette that I cannot get filled, opaque, high tinting, blue that leans toward violet.

Regarding toxicity concerns about Bismuth Vanadate; the first part, Bismuth is found in over the counter stomach aid medication (definitely non toxic). The second part, vanadate has only been linked to being toxic when ingested or inhaled... do not eat or breathe your paint please; otherwise it cannot pass the skin barrier by mere physical contact. Non toxic paint, please do not read exposure concerns that simply do not apply to our field of practice. Unless of course you are making the paint yourself, in which case, use gloves and a breathing mask.

Richard P
01-11-2019, 11:04 AM
YinMn Blue... that is all I need and currently cannot find on the market. It fills the only spot on my palette that I cannot get filled, opaque, high tinting, blue that leans toward violet.

Have you tried a Phtalo Blue PB15:0 with Dixonazine Violet PV23? Both are very dark valued, transparent and very high tinting. When mixed with white it might make an opaque violet leaning blue?

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 12:06 PM
Have you tried a Phtalo Blue PB15:0 with Dixonazine Violet PV23? Both are very dark valued, transparent and very high tinting. When mixed with white it might make an opaque violet leaning blue?

Utilizing a mix will invariably be less opaque than an opaque pigment.

Pinguino
01-11-2019, 12:37 PM
In about 10 days I will be starting a new thread, comparing my results for several kinds of "transparent" whites. I began it as a question, but will finish with a new thread for results. Time delay is because several of the paints had to be ordered.

As for the question: Would anyone prefer a truly transparent color in the Vermillion range? Closest I can find are either distinctly orange, distinctly red, or not even close to transparent. Of course, I can get that kind of color by mixing.

RomanB
01-11-2019, 12:52 PM
YinMn Blue... that is all I need and currently cannot find on the market. It fills the only spot on my palette that I cannot get filled, opaque, high tinting, blue that leans toward violet.

Here is its swatch in watercolor (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--Jj9JWNn2bg/WO2_PokPsII/AAAAAAAAE34/04o8thnMwAwvkihWd8-JqVuomhAjnwslQCLcB/s1600/YInMn%2Bblue.JPG), by Jane Bundell. I think it is available as acrylic paint (http://impact.oregonstate.edu/2017/10/yinmn-blue-now-available-artists/). Here are some other blue pigments (https://artrelatedblog.wordpress.com/2015/08/07/kremers-blue-pigment-assortment/), the closest are PB74 Cobalt Blue Dark and Han Purple.

RomanB
01-11-2019, 12:57 PM
Would anyone prefer a truly transparent color in the Vermillion range?

There is a variety of Ultramarine with Selenium instead of Sulfur, it is right the color that you describe: of the same hue as Vermillion and transparent as Ultramarine Blue.

Pinguino
01-11-2019, 01:18 PM
There is a variety of Ultramarine with Selenium instead of Sulfur, it is right the color that you describe: of the same hue as Vermillion and transparent as Ultramarine Blue.
Never heard of it, and couldn't find it. Link? Brand? Color name? All I could find was "Ultramarine Pink" which has no selenium, and is more like a Rose/Violet than a Vermilion.

As for the YInMn Blue, and for that matter nearly any high-chroma color: The pigment's color is likely to be well outside the gamut of your computer (or handheld) color display. That's even if you have a calibrated device (calibration does not increase gamut). What you see on screen isn't what you get.

RomanB
01-11-2019, 01:26 PM
Never heard of it, and couldn't find it. Link? Brand? Color name?

It was known in XIX century but wasn't of commercial interest. Modern information is from scientific papers: 1 (https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/1999/cs/a704920j), 2 (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ic990223u). Here (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ18Z-N26DOpdTo8XghWz_BxGUgUV_cpewyhkgz8TsApo24Q8cn) it is shown near Cadmium Red PR 108.

Richard P
01-11-2019, 02:08 PM
Utilizing a mix will invariably be less opaque than an opaque pigment.

Yes but if the pigment is so heavy tinting then you won't need much and get a lot of opacity from the white.

contumacious
01-11-2019, 02:11 PM
A white pigment that behaves the same as Zinc but strengthens the paint film rather than weakening it, would be my number one choice.

I would only be interested in non toxic versions of my other favorite pigments if they performed exactly the same as the originals and didn't cost more.

The comments from Golden caught my eye:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2019/1558522-1558522-fffhfh.jpg

That quote from Golden is misleading. It seems to imply that Bismuth by itself is a toxic heavy metal. It is definitely heavy - often used to replace lead for some applications, but it sure wasn't toxic the last time I looked. If it somehow became toxic in its pure form, someone had better tell the the folks who make Pepto Bismol. That over the counter digestive tract ailment remedy is full of Bismuth. I wonder how well it would sell if they removed the pink coloring and presented the consumer with a dark black colored liquid to ingest. :eek:

Pinguino
01-11-2019, 02:26 PM
That over the counter digestive tract ailment remedy is full of Bismuth.

Actually, "Pepto-Bismol Art (https://fineartamerica.com/art/pepto+bismol)" is an available category. Not clear whether any of those artists used actual Pepto-Bismol as pigment. But at least one American artist has done it (http://www.sfexaminer.com/an-american-road-trip-inspired-ed-ruscha-works/) (saw his work on exhibit in SF).

kinasi
01-11-2019, 02:31 PM
If it somehow became toxic in its pure form, someone had better tell the the folks who make Pepto Bismol. That over the counter digestive tract ailment remedy is full of Bismuth.



They know. Bismuth subsalicylate in Pepto Bismol becomes toxic and leads to death when people take too many.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2019/1558522-sfsfsfsfff.jpg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2019/1558522-wetjmed00100-0063.jpg




It seems to imply that Bismuth by itself is a toxic heavy metal...but it sure wasn't toxic the last time I looked.



Golden isn't "implying" it, they're saying it. And they're correct. Both Bismuth and especially Vanadium are heavy metals and should not be seen as a safe substitute for cadmium, they're not. Bismuth Vanadium solves nothing, it's just as toxic and expensive as cadmium paints.



The only real alternative to cad yellow is PY74, because it offers a lower price, isn't a heavy metal, it's very lightfast, and it has "reasonable" opacity.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 02:31 PM
Here is its swatch in watercolor (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--Jj9JWNn2bg/WO2_PokPsII/AAAAAAAAE34/04o8thnMwAwvkihWd8-JqVuomhAjnwslQCLcB/s1600/YInMn%2Bblue.JPG), by Jane Bundell. I think it is available as acrylic paint (http://impact.oregonstate.edu/2017/10/yinmn-blue-now-available-artists/). Here are some other blue pigments (https://artrelatedblog.wordpress.com/2015/08/07/kremers-blue-pigment-assortment/), the closest are PB74 Cobalt Blue Dark and Han Purple.

The various other pigments that are similar in color space fail at the requirements I listed:

High Opacity
High Tinting

Cobalts are weak tinters and not nearly as opaque. As I stated, YinMn Blue is just doing something that no other pigment is, quite unique in it's spot in color space, for more than just hue. I use the other properties of paints beyond just hue.

Yes but if the pigment is so heavy tinting then you won't need much and get a lot of opacity from the white.


Mixes involving transparent pigments and white are what I am already using, but they do not have the body or ability of range to achieve what I am looking for. As a single pigment color that is performing all these functions it allows me to use it for alla prima work much easier. The idea is to use YinMn blue in very much the same way Cadmiums and other opaque pigments are, for alla prima work and direct "tiling" approach to painting. There are a number of benefits to having some opaque pigments on the palette, including direct 2 pigment mixes to achieve various hues and modulating values without relying on white or black. These are all aspects of which I seek to utilize but simply cannot with transparent hue mixes. This is not to say that I haven't tried, and not that I cannot get there eventually... but a more direct route will save hours of mixing over the course of the years to come.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 02:40 PM
kinasi, please note the word "abuse". This indicates misusing the product, that would be like trying to breathe water... just saying, a total misuse of a liquid can very well lead to death. Which leads back to the idea of toxicity being rooted in the usage... everything is deadly in the wrong quantities.

Sugar overdose become diabietes... I mean these are somewhat abstractions, but they show my meaning. Too much of anything, even a good thing, is toxic.

As for the question: Would anyone prefer a truly transparent color in the Vermillion range? Closest I can find are either distinctly orange, distinctly red, or not even close to transparent. Of course, I can get that kind of color by mixing.

I thought PO 36 was pretty close to that... I mean it can come very near transparent (semi-transparent). It performs like a Vermillion in handling out of the tube that I have from Art Treehouse, orangey-red in mass, tints out pinkish. The version I have is semi opaque, but there is some variation in the pigment from a few manufacturers. I believe it is commonly used in plastics for toys.

kinasi
01-11-2019, 02:53 PM
Which leads back to the idea of toxicity being rooted in the usage... everything is deadly in the wrong quantities.


Sugar overdose become diabietes...

No, heavy metals are not comparable to water, salt, sugar, or chocolate mouse. People need to stop making these silly comparisons on this forum.

Most heavy metals are toxic to human beings. Arsenium, lead, mercury, chromium, etc... are toxic even at minor levels of direct exposure.

That's why Golden is not recommending Bismuth Vanadium as a safe alternative, because both Bismuth and Vanadium are both heavy metals, and they should both be considerd toxic, especially Vanadium.

And they are 100% correct.

Vanadium, is toxic, full stop. Stop with the silly comparisons.

kinasi
01-11-2019, 02:59 PM
The only reason cadmium in oil paint is still allowed to be sold is because it is cadmium sulfide, otherwise it would have been pulled out of the stores ages ago. The cadmium as a heavy metal, is extremely extremely toxic.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 03:05 PM
Vanadium, especially as a compound, is toxic, full stop. Stop with the silly comparisons.

Toxicity is a function of the type of Exposure along with the quantity of that exposure. Hence why the pigment is NOT listed as toxic, because it doesn't fall into the range of toxicity required to become labeled as such.

One would have to be misusing it by large amounts in order to achieve a toxic reaction, meaning that they would have to be trying to breathe a liquid. This not providing a silly comparison actually, it is a direct comparison, and a valid one. In short, do not eat your paint, do not breathe your paint, do not smear it on toast and eat that. I would say "Use common sense", but honestly I do not believe it is all that common.

You know what else is toxic? Borax! In the right dosage:

"Borax can be toxic at the high doses used in animal studies. It has this effect at high doses is because it is essentially an overdose of the element boron. Iron, zinc and calcium are required by the body too, but an overdose of any of these will also send you to the hospital, or even kill you!

Original article at: https://www.smallfootprintfamily.com/is-borax-toxic#ixzz5cKc76Giw"

Hence my point, everything is toxic in the right amounts. Even non toxic things.

kinasi
01-11-2019, 03:12 PM
Bismuth Vanadium should have never been introduced into consumer paint. It was irresponsible to do so.

2008 was the year when I saw many brands introduce Bismuth vanadium paints.

2008 was also the year of the last economic crisis, US housing bubble.

The year China started using tons of steel to prop up their economy to avoid mass job losses, by building massive cities and bridges no one would ever use. That required lots of steel. China started mining and processing large amounts of vanadium. Vanadium became cheap. Vanadium is used in steel, it allows China to build buildings with less steel, the vanadium is used in alloy steel to strengthen it.

The only reason for the introduction of Bismuth Vanadium paint was money.


http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2019/1558522-dgdggg.jpg

Richard P
01-11-2019, 03:13 PM
I thought PO 36 was pretty close to that... I mean it can come very near transparent (semi-transparent). It performs like a Vermillion in handling out of the tube that I have from Art Treehouse, orangey-red in mass, tints out pinkish. The version I have is semi opaque, but there is some variation in the pigment from a few manufacturers. I believe it is commonly used in plastics for toys.

What about a mix between PY128 and PR207?

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 03:19 PM
Oh yeah, there are a number of mixes that can achieve it. I thought the point of the thread was a wishlist of a brand new single pigment to fill a specific color space though. In this case, PO 36 functions very similarly to a desire for a Transparent Vermillion... I suppose some transparent PR 101 can do that as well though. Some of those are very orangey-red in glazes, and some variants can tint out pretty pink as well. Similar to a transparent Indian Red, Transparent Red Oxide may somewhat fill that role already now that I think about it, though some brands definitely tint out more orange. There is a lot of variation in the orange-red realm.

Richard P
01-11-2019, 03:24 PM
Well yes I was thinking of pigments that fill a gap that can't be achieved by a mix.

What about a transparent pigment that adds strength to paint films like lead? ;)

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 03:31 PM
Consumer paint is the least dangeorus place for pigment usage. Industrial usage of pigments is much more irresponsible, the crisis situation you refer is brought about by other problems; most notably being improper safety guidelines in a completely different field than what we work in.

The rest of the assessment is pretty good though, vanadium being made more less expensive as a result of the increased industrial usage does allow us to benefit from the increased accessibility. That is not irresponsible by any means, because as has been consistently shown, it is the dosage and misusage of the pigment that could potentially be dangerous. Do not misuse a pigment, and one is safe, it is actually very difficult to misuse it in a high enough quantity in a painting studio.

There is always the possibility that one could actually be using a paint sprayer, with no mask... but then again, they risking themselves knowingly because masks are extensively advised to be used anytime a paint sprayer is in usage. I do not know what to tell you kinasi, your point of view seems extremely slanted toward a kind of life that is merely illusion of safety and non-toxicity.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 03:37 PM
Well yes I was thinking of pigments that fill a gap that can't be achieved by a mix.

What about a transparent pigment that adds strength to paint films like lead? ;)

Nailed it! That would be an incredibly welcome addition.... but I think that some of the current additives that are considered transparent or translucent may already be performing that role.

Rembrandt used calcium carbonate in his paintings and they seem to be in good shape.

kinasi
01-11-2019, 03:41 PM
I do not know what to tell you kinasi, your point of view seems extremely slanted toward a kind of life that is merely illusion of safety and non-toxicity.

Companies should strive to make oil painting accessible and safe. Selling pots of lead paint and introducing paints containing vanadium shouldn't be part of that.

I take less issue with the sale of cadmium paint, cadmium sulfide is considerably less dangerous than highly toxic cadmium metal. Still, it is still toxic and companies need to offer alternatives.

PY74 and PR254 are great alternatives.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 03:59 PM
Companies should strive to make oil painting accessible and safe. Selling pots of lead paint and introducing paints containing vanadium shouldn't be part of that.

I take less issue with the sale of cadmium paint, cadmium sulfide is considerably less dangerous than highly toxic cadmium metal. Still, it is still toxic and companies need to offer alternatives.

PY74 and PR254 are great alternatives.

I believe they are already striving to do that. Your assessment of PY 184 seems excessively negative and aggressive toward manufacturers making it due solely on data in unrelated fields, during times of complete misusage and poor operating procedures.

I am not asking that you adjust your stance, that would be unreasonable, but better to educate people to exercise proper handling practice rather than just require everything be made "safe and non toxic".

Pyrrole toxicity (https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+119)

If we look hard enough, everything including the sun is toxic in the right dosage. Sun is dangerous enough to give you cancer and it is like a million miles away, and exposure only requires a certain number of hours.

Edit: Also, Richard, sorry for somewhat hijacking the thread for this toxicity discussion, felt it was relevant to our assessment of the gorgeous yellow that is PY 184.

Edit 2: PY 74 Toxicity (chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB2166553.htm)
"Reactivity Profile
Pigment Yellow 74 is an azo compound. Azo, diazo, azido compounds can detonate. This applies in particular to organic azides that have been sensitized by the addition of metal salts or strong acids. Toxic gases are formed by mixing materials of this class with acids, aldehydes, amides, carbamates, cyanides, inorganic fluorides, halogenated organics, isocyanates, ketones, metals, nitrides, peroxides, phenols, epoxides, acyl halides, and strong oxidizing or reducing agents. Flammable gases are formed by mixing materials in this group with alkali metals. Explosive combination can occur with strong oxidizing agents, metal salts, peroxides, and sulfides."

kinasi
01-11-2019, 04:22 PM
Organic pigments are generally very safe. It's mineral pigments where the problems start, heavy metals like lead, cadmium, vanadium, chromium, arsenic etc... are problem pigments. Unlike organic pigments, the body has a very hard time ridding itself of these highly toxic heavy metals, they accumulate in human tissue over time.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 04:29 PM
Heyyyyyy.... check this out, we have some other pigments that the creator of YInMn blue has made now:

A new color comes from out of the blue (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LvFAnDAY7o)

He doesn't name or list them in the video, but he talks about the creation of YInMn and illustrates that swapping out the Manganese for other metals resulted in a variety of other colors. Now I am all interested in the purples shown in the video. Extremely interested, in fact, because given that they are using Titanium, we may in fact have some opaque purples on the way (and there is much rejoicing).

RomanB
01-11-2019, 04:31 PM
Companies should strive to make oil painting accessible and safe. Selling pots of lead paint and introducing paints containing vanadium shouldn't be part of that.

Companies should warn customers about possible consequences of using their products, but prohibitions are killing oil painting. I think that an adult person could make an informed decision.

We all know about the situation in EU where they banned several pigments (Lead White, Lead Tin yellow, Naples Yellow, Vermillion and so on) and plan to ban other ones (Cadmium-containing, Cobalt-containing...). And they suggest to use organic pigments knowing that they are fading in mixtures with Titanium White because of its photocatalytic activity and that paints with organic pigments become brittle in mixtures with Zinc White. This isn't responsible.

Pinguino
01-11-2019, 04:32 PM
They know. Bismuth subsalicylate in Pepto Bismol becomes toxic and leads to death when people take too many.
In the quoted article, the toxicity is due to the Salicylate overdose, not the Bismuth. Salicylates are present in many ingestable materials. Salicyclates are found in fruits (raisins, blueberries, oranges...), in vegetables (broccoli, spinach...), in spices, tea, aloe vera...

I thought PO 36 was pretty close to (vermilion)...

I have PO36. Indeed, when mixed with some Quinacridone Red, it does perform that way.

kinasi
01-11-2019, 04:32 PM
because given that they are using Titanium, we may in fact have some opaque purples on the way (and there is much rejoicing).



Ultramarine violet with some titanium white should give you a nice opaque violet.



Do you want a specific opaque purple pigment?

kinasi
01-11-2019, 04:35 PM
not the Bismuth





http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2019/1558522-sfsfsfff.jpg

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 04:37 PM
Organic pigments are generally very safe. It's mineral pigments where the problems start, heavy metals like lead, cadmium, vanadium, chromium, arsenic etc... are problem pigments. Unlike organic pigments, the body has a very hard time ridding itself of these highly toxic heavy metals, they accumulate in human tissue over time.

This directly correlates to exposure levels, and once again, we as artists simply do not expose ourselves to heavy metals found in our paints in that way nearly often enough. Some exceptions may exist, but that leads back into the realm of abuse and misuse cases. That, in turn, circles back into the best operating procedures discussion.

Toxicity is not the problem, it's lack of education regarding handling procedures in schools and workplaces. This includes our studio practice education, of which I am greatly at fault as well, having only recently (within these past 5 years) really started paying attention due to increased sensitivities to various chemicals that happened to be in my workplace (perfumes, cleaning solutions and supplies, solvents, and the like).

Back to the discussion regarding pigments... given that YInMn technically already exists, I guess the only other color that I really would like to see made available would be an opaque light colored Purple. As per my other post regarding the Youtube video, I am extremely excited to see some involving Titanium and have begun extensive searching for more information on those colors as well.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 06:05 PM
Do you want a specific opaque purple pigment?

Yes, I want a single pigment opaque purple pigment. PV23 or PV 15 + White are functional, but having a single pigment high chroma, high opacity, good tinting strength medium valued purple would be glorious. It would allow for control in limited pigment mixtures in much the same way I utilize Cadmiums or other opaque paints.

The answer shouldn't always be adding White to X for opaque mixes. . . that always introduces a subtle temperature shift that has to also be accounted for. It is why Cadmiums and other opaque pigments have long been so very popular. This is an aspect of painting in general that isn't extremely well understood, even I didn't really understand the usefulness of those opaque paints until this past couple years. For beginners, I feel they are not very useful, but for very advanced artists opaques can be used in very creative ways that just cannot be controlled well until strong mechanical control can be exerted.

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 06:32 PM
I have PO36. Indeed, when mixed with some Quinacridone Red, it does perform that way.

Mine tints out very pinkish:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/11-Jan-2019/34519-IMG_0164-2.jpg

They are labeled, but I feel that PO 36 tints out pretty pink, even on that yellow cream colored paper. For reference, I mixed it with PY 74 and White to get an idea of how it looks next to a "bright" orange. Also, the PR 254 shows us how a genuine pink looks.

Maybe it's just that what I see as Vermilion in hue isn't the same as what you see.

Here is a pic from on wetcanvas of Genuine Vermilion by a few manufacturers:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/28-Mar-2016/96427-99109-vermilion_mh_comp2.jpg

PO 36 looks to me looks just like Holbien's PR 106, what is often considered one of the better quality Vermilion paints.

Pinguino
01-11-2019, 07:11 PM
Mine tints out very pinkish...
Probably. But I'm in the "transparent glazer" category, rather than the "opaquer" category. Just noticed that Holbein makes a "Transparent Vermilion" color, containing PR144 Chromophthal Red. Oddly, this pigment is described as a "bluish red" even though its color name, and color sample, show it as being more like what I would expect of Vermilion (leaning orange).

Delofasht
01-11-2019, 08:43 PM
Probably. But I'm in the "transparent glazer" category, rather than the "opaquer" category. Just noticed that Holbein makes a "Transparent Vermilion" color, containing PR144 Chromophthal Red. Oddly, this pigment is described as a "bluish red" even though its color name, and color sample, show it as being more like what I would expect of Vermilion (leaning orange).

I feel like you can glaze with any pigments... they don't have to be transparent, I glaze with opaque pigments often. Optically a bit different, but not drastically so, spread thin enough everything is transparent.

JCannon
01-13-2019, 05:31 AM
I'd like to see an ideal replacement for Alizarin Crimson. Red's answer to Prussian Blue: So dark as to be black in masstone, but offering glazes the color of blood.

I wouldn't mind seeing a cheaper version of Cobalt blue. An opaque, vivid, high-chroma true blue -- a dead center blue which leans neither red nor green.

About that Vermilion collection: The only one that looks like my own tube (from a manufacturer which went defunct decades ago) is the Holbein.

TomMather
01-13-2019, 07:13 PM
I'd like to see an ideal replacement for Alizarin Crimson. Red's answer to Prussian Blue: So dark as to be black in masstone, but offering glazes the color of blood.

I wouldn't mind seeing a cheaper version of Cobalt blue. An opaque, vivid, high-chroma true blue -- a dead center blue which leans neither red nor green.

About that Vermilion collection: The only one that looks like my own tube (from a manufacturer which went defunct decades ago) is the Holbein.

Grumbacher Cobalt Blue is reasonably priced, about $15 for a 30 mm tube at Blick. Iím still using a tube that I bought years ago, and Iíve got two new tubes waiting in the wings. Cobalt Blue makes beautiful skies, particularly for scenes in western USA where the sky has less humidity.

TomMather
01-14-2019, 09:37 AM
The most difficult color that Iíve tried to match is the bright purplish red of many wildflowers. Or any shade of purple in general. The right color is probably available already, but itís not in my collection of tubes. Fortunately, I donít need this color very often as I could spend a small fortune trying to find it. My purples and reds tend to muddy up as soon as you add any white to them, losing their brilliance.

Delofasht
01-14-2019, 09:59 AM
Tom, have you tried Quinacridone Rose (PV 19 rose shade)? It is available in many brands and covers the rose colors very nicely and is a fair tinting power color so pushing into violets with it and a purple works pretty well. Mixed with PV 23 can get a full range of purples and reddish purple colors, all tint well with white.

TomMather
01-14-2019, 10:55 AM
I do have a tube of Winsor Newton permanent rose, PV 19. Can you add ultramarine blue to make it more purplish without making it muddy?

Iíve also got Rembrandt ultramarine violet, PV 15, but it doesnít seem to mix well with reds. Others colors Iíve got:

- WN quinacridone magenta, PR 122.
- WN alizarin crimson, PR 83
- Rembrandt permanent madder, PR253/PR264/PV19

Richard P
01-14-2019, 11:11 AM
I do have a tube of Winsor Newton permanent rose, PV 19. Can you add ultramarine blue to make it more purplish without making it muddy?

You should be able to do that, I think it's common practice.

TomMather
01-14-2019, 11:32 AM
I painted the attached picture using and underpainting in burnt umber/sienna overpainted primarily with PV19 tinted with white and ultramarine blue. To me, itís rather muddy and nowhere as brilliant as the actual magnolia flower.

I recently purchased the Quin Magenta, PR122, but in samples it seem a bit more brilliant and purplish tham PV19.

Perhaps my problem was doing the underpainting in brown, which was thoroughly dry before adding others colors. I donít like to paint on white canvases but maybe need to make an exception with colors like this, or perhaps tone/underpaint in a cooler gray.

TomMather
01-14-2019, 11:41 AM
Hereís a photo of the original flower I was painting, and you can see the colors are far more brilliant.

Richard P
01-14-2019, 12:43 PM
I think this is as you said due to the brown underpainting affecting the purple colour of the flower.

AnnieA
01-14-2019, 01:28 PM
I'm very eager to try a YInMn blue oil paint, once some company decides to produce one. It's a very new pigment, said to be extremely vibrant and somewhat similar to cobalt in hue. Although it's gotten a CI number, PB86 (http://www.artiscreation.com/blue.html#yinmn), and there's been quite a stir about it, there aren't any U.S. offerings in any media that I've been able to locate. It may be available in Australia in Matisse Acrylic, but not in the U.S, perhaps because it's expensive to produce.

Here's some info from wikipedia:
Properties and preparation[edit]
YInMn Blue is chemically stable, does not fade, and is non-toxic. Moreover, infrared radiation is strongly reflected, which makes this pigment suitable for energy-saving cool coatings. It can be prepared by heating the oxides of the elements yttrium, indium, and manganese to a temperature of approximately 1,200 įC (2,200 įF).[7]

Uses[edit]
The pigment is far more durable than alternative blue pigments such as ultramarine or Prussian blue, retaining its vibrant color in oil and water. It is additionally safer than cobalt blue.[8]

RomanB
01-14-2019, 02:06 PM
I'm very eager to try a YInMn blue oil paint, once some company decides to produce one. It's a very new pigment, said to be extremely vibrant and somewhat similar to cobalt in hue.

Information at manufacturer's site doesn't look that promising (https://www.shepherdcolor.com/products/technical-data/BL0010G513/). Look at its reflectance in visible range. For comparison, here is a graph of Cobalt Blue's reflectance (https://colourlex.com/project/cobalt-blue/), under "identification" tab.

Delofasht
01-14-2019, 02:32 PM
Information at manufacturer's site doesn't look that promising (https://www.shepherdcolor.com/products/technical-data/BL0010G513/). Look at its reflectance in visible range. For comparison, here is a graph of Cobalt Blue's reflectance (https://colourlex.com/project/cobalt-blue/), under "identification" tab.

What does that reflectance curve tell you?

The reason I ask is because what it tells me is that it has a lower green reflectance, resulting in a more pure blue. It will be slightly less vibrant because it reflects a more narrow range of color, but it will also act more as a blue should be expected without shifting in hue in tints (most blues get slightly more green, including Cobalt and Ultramarine, the nearest neighbors to YInMn).

Of course, depending on the binder this might or might not be more pronounced.

RomanB
01-14-2019, 03:05 PM
What does that reflectance curve tell you?

It tells me that if measurement procedures are comparable, this particular variety of YInMn blue will be dull. If first photos are more or less correct: 1 (http://impact.oregonstate.edu/files/2017/10/YInMn-blue-Artist-Paint-copy.jpg), 2 (https://www.cavalierart.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Matisse_YinMin.jpg), it will be duller than Cobalt Blue and Ultramarine Blue (http://www.winsornewton.com/row/shop/acrylic-colour/professional-acrylic?colourid=5012572011617), in the same part of the color wheel. Check it with CIELab color picker.

Richard P
01-14-2019, 03:15 PM
I wouldn't say that is 'dull' as such, looks perfectly fine to me.

AnnieA
01-14-2019, 03:16 PM
In pure pigment form it certainly looks bright and vibrant:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/14-Jan-2019/85002-575px-YInMn_Blue_-_cropped.jpg
By Mas Subramanian (Mas Subramanian is it's discoverer) <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0" title="Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0">CC BY-SA 4.0</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=49854366">Link</a>

This interview with him may be of interest:
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018/05/14/new-blue-pigment-color-chemistry

RomanB
01-14-2019, 03:38 PM
This interview with him may be of interest:
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018/05/14/new-blue-pigment-color-chemistry

With all respect, I'll believe to independently made photos and to results of instrumental measurements - this saturation on advertising images seems to be just photoshopped.
Here are some other photos of the pigment, 1 (https://d2n4wb9orp1vta.cloudfront.net/cms/brand/PT/2017-PT/PT1117kuSHEPHERCOLORblue.jpg;width=550;quality=60), 2 (https://readyfor.jp/s3/readyfor-img/ckeditor_assets/pictures/320170/content_0f06cb5e26430e39e133b176387207977070272f.jpg), 3 (https://readyfor.jp/s3/readyfor-img/ckeditor_assets/pictures/320010/content_339f5868588cfc8fda4a1ec94ead8f737c5fcfc0.), 4 (https://readyfor.jp/s3/readyfor-img/ckeditor_assets/pictures/320013/content_8592c6bbb42b26781395276e7ec7921ecdcfd5b4.jpeg). And here is his own photo (https://res.cloudinary.com/format-magazine-production/image/upload/c_crop,h_853,w_1023,x_83,y_0,f_jpg,f_auto/dpr_3.0/c_scale,w_767,h_639/mas_subramanian_yinmn_blue), notice that everything in the laboratory looks unrealistically blue. Also, his statements about a totally new blue pigment in 200 years are just false, from patents and scientific literature we know of tens of new blue inorganic pigments since the beginning of XIX century. Even more, he cites other scientific works where relatively new blue pigments are described.
So, yes, considering the evidence I think that the real thing won't be magic at all.

Pinguino
01-14-2019, 03:43 PM
In pure pigment form it certainly looks bright and vibrant...

Remember that the intense blue colors are outside the gamut of nearly all computer monitors. What that means is that the color displayed online can be quite different than the live color. When a color is out of gamut, any or all of hue, value, and chroma may be far off.

Richard P
01-14-2019, 03:45 PM
According to Gamblin it becomes greyer and redder in its tint than a mix of Cobalt and Ultramarine:
https://gamblincolors.com/new-blue-color-oil-paint-yinmn-blue/

Delofasht
01-14-2019, 03:57 PM
Color picking from photographs that are edited for marketing purposes is useless. That said, there is a video on Jerry's regarding YInMn blue, and he compares it to both Cobalt and Ultramarine right there in the video. They are extremely similar in hue out of the tube, Cobalt being slightly less reddish, Ultramarine and YInMn being slightly more reddish. He doesn't explore their opacity differences in the video unfortunately, and also it is Acrylics, which has a lower pigment load than oils (by around 60%).

Jerry's Artarama Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IJLXYz4FME)

Delofasht
01-14-2019, 04:02 PM
According to Gamblin it become greyer and redder in it's tint that a mix of Cobalt and Ultramarine:
https://gamblincolors.com/new-blue-color-oil-paint-yinmn-blue/

This is a hue shift and a value difference, very subtle but definite, from blue toward cyan and also slightly lighter in value (convert to grayscale to check the value). Cobalt + Ultramarine have a higher green reflectance, in the human eye that reads as brighter often, more light being reflected = brighter. In mass tone we can see they are very close in hue though, and if we brought the YInMn up in value to match the mix, the hue difference would be more noticeable. This can be checked with several different tools, but even from these very high quality digital images we can gather that they do exist.

It is wonderful to see images of the colors right next to each other though, which gives a clearer understanding of them in relation to each other.

Antonin
01-14-2019, 04:34 PM
From Gamblin: "YInMn Blue pigment is approximately six times the cost of Cobalt or Cerulean blues. This is largely due to the component Indium being a rare earth element. At this time, the cost of this pigment, relative to its benefit to painters, is too high for us to add this color to our palette."

How could this pigment ever be used on roofs to reflect heat .... at that price? That's what press releases all said a primary use for it would be.

Also Shepherd Color says YInMn Blue's acid resistance is only 1 out of 5. Cobalt Blue's is 5 out of 5.
https://www.shepherdcolor.com/products/technical-data/BL0010G513/
https://www.shepherdcolor.com/products/technical-data/BL0010C595/
How is that any better than Ultramarine blue's problem with acids?

Pinguino
01-14-2019, 05:35 PM
How could this pigment ever be used on roofs to reflect heat .... at that price? That's what press releases all said a primary use for it would be.

Not the roofs of mere peasants and serfs, such as you and I. Rather, the roofs of government buildings, funded by our tax dollars. Also, there will be tax breaks for large mansions.

At least, that's how things work around here.

Delofasht
01-14-2019, 06:58 PM
Not the roofs of mere peasants and serfs, such as you and I. Rather, the roofs of government buildings, funded by our tax dollars. Also, there will be tax breaks for large mansions.

At least, that's how things work around here.

:lol: Too true.

That said, with enough demand the price will be driven down to reasonable levels. It has been the case with every major development in the past; technological, medical, and basically any field.

Delofasht
01-14-2019, 07:13 PM
Ohhhh... I just got back to my computer at the house and got to compare the hue/saturation/lightness values of the two draw downs by Gamblin. I was spot on with my assessment of both hue shift and value: Roughly a 10% value difference between the two, with YInMn being darker in value; Up to 20 degree shift in hue from the tinting process as well, from Blue toward Cyan in the Ultramarine + Cobalt mix. 15 degree or less shift for YInMn blue toward Cyan. This is important as it's a function of how it will act in mixes as well. Fun stuff, thanks again for the links to those draw downs Richard.

sarahsands
01-14-2019, 08:16 PM
Just to add to your conversation we have had this posted as well - just another point of reference.

https://www.justpaint.org/yinmn-blue/

We also did reach out to Shepard - which we do periodically - to get an updated status and they are still waiting for EPA approval for its use in consumer products - meaning, among other things, artist paints. It is available in Australia, as has been mentioned, but that is largely due to the differences in regulations.

Delofasht
01-14-2019, 08:51 PM
Thanks Sarah, for more links to draw downs with PB 86 in oil paint samples? It does indeed appear slightly less brilliant in tints from your photos, as to be expected given the fact that it is efffectively reflecting slightly less light than some other blues. It does appear to shift slightly less in hue even with the samples shown.

From the oil absorption ratio that Shepherd has listed, it appears that while the pigment itself is more expensive, the paint production from YInMn is higher yield than what one gets from the same amount of cobalt pigment. Hopefully that translates into similar production costs and equally affordable consumer prices.

Looking forward to PB 86 being available for purchase.

Richard P
01-15-2019, 04:28 AM
All the talk around this pigment makes me wonder what other undiscovered combinations of inorganic materials there are out there that would make good pigments. :)

Delofasht
01-15-2019, 05:01 AM
Also, his statements about a totally new blue pigment in 200 years are just false, from patents and scientific literature we know of tens of new blue inorganic pigments since the beginning of XIX century. Even more, he cites other scientific works where relatively new blue pigments are described.


Except his statement was first new inorganic blue pigment created in 200 years. Many of the new pigments in blue have been variations on Cobalts, actually cyan, or organic colors and not purely synthesized in a lab. His statement was basically right, Cobalt and Prussian were the last two discoveries of inorganic blue pigment colors made solely through chemistry. The distinction might be subtle, but it is correct. This is merely an argumentative stance however, because the fact that a new color exists is still most important. The fact that is fully opaque is of high importance, and also that it has an extremely low oil absorption ratio (9g/100g).

Delofasht
01-15-2019, 05:08 AM
All the talk around this pigment makes me wonder what other undiscovered combinations of inorganic materials there are out there that would make good pigments. :)

Mas has also discovered a number of other colors stemming from his research with PB 86. Most of the colors he has created have not been fully examined yet or even near as far along in development as YInMn, meaning not near commercial availability at all. He touched on it in a recent TED talk earlier this year, he has formulations for greens, yellow, orange, purple, violet, and a few others. I found them while doing research on this because of this thread. Here is the link to the TED talk Video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3LvFAnDAY7o&index=2&list=LLr4JXBRaY8X_2CCrJDy-TFQ&t=0s) on YouTube.

I hadnít noticed before but he actually touches on the other blue inorganic pigments created in the past couple centuries there too, heh.

RomanB
01-15-2019, 09:02 AM
Except his statement was first new inorganic blue pigment created in 200 years. Many of the new pigments in blue have been variations on Cobalts, actually cyan, or organic colors and not purely synthesized in a lab. His statement was basically right, Cobalt and Prussian were the last two discoveries of inorganic blue pigment colors made solely through chemistry. The distinction might be subtle, but it is correct. This is merely an argumentative stance however, because the fact that a new color exists is still most important. The fact that is fully opaque is of high importance, and also that it has an extremely low oil absorption ratio (9g/100g).

His statement isnít correct, itís false. Just to name a few examples:

Manganese Blue was invented in 1864 and really it is a whole class of pigments, as Cobalts

Blue apatites occur in nature, but were synthesised in 1950-s, they are a class too.

Zirconium Vanadium blue is a recent discovery also.

Delofasht
01-15-2019, 09:17 AM
His statement isnít correct, itís false. Just to name a few examples:

Manganese Blue was invented in 1864 and really it is a whole class of pigments, as Cobalts

Blue apatites occur in nature, but were synthesised in 1950-s, they are a class too.

Zirconium Vanadium blue is a recent discovery also.

Okay, I understand why you are saying that now... You are lumping Cyan pigments in with Blue. That makes more sense now, however from a scientific point of view, Blue exists within a more narrow range of reflected wavelengths and does in fact exclude a lot of pigments that are generally included in the blue family by artists. As a scientist, he did not lie, because he was applying scientific terms to the allocation of the hue in regards to the wavelength reflectance... not some arbitrary color definitions we artists tend to apply to colors.

Cyan isn't quite Blue, though they are close in color and often confused for one another.

Raffless
01-15-2019, 10:04 AM
Pmu would be interesting. Thats Permanent Mud. Could be very useful.👍

Dcam
01-15-2019, 10:26 AM
Pantone's color of the year 2019:

https://www.artistsnetwork.com/art-techniques/color-mixing/pantone-color-of-the-year-2019/?k=Zxv2NQ2krR6EsbmlY1Px6g%3D%3D&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=arn-cja-nl-190115&cid=DM96988&bid=970896012

Richard P
01-15-2019, 11:01 AM
Back to my original question.. ;)

I want a Pthtalo Yellow. Able to tint white or yellow ochre to produce bright, opaque and lightfast yellows as well as mix with Pyrrole Red to produce opaque oranges.. sigh.. :)

Raffless
01-15-2019, 11:24 AM
Back to my original question.. ;)

I want a Pthtalo Yellow. Able to tint white or yellow ochre to produce bright, opaque and lightfast yellows as well as mix with Pyrrole Red to produce opaque oranges.. sigh.. :)

Your not into Cadmium Yellow?

Delofasht
01-15-2019, 12:17 PM
Back to my original question.. ;)

I want a Pthtalo Yellow. Able to tint white or yellow ochre to produce bright, opaque and lightfast yellows as well as mix with Pyrrole Red to produce opaque oranges.. sigh.. :)

That would be a really good one, useful for glazing and mixes. . . especially with other similar tinting strength pigments. Nice dream pigment there!

Richard P
01-15-2019, 12:39 PM
Your not into Cadmium Yellow?
Yes I use Cadmium Yellow, but I'd prefer something non-toxic with extreme tinting power as it would offer more possibilities.

AnnieA
01-15-2019, 02:11 PM
Derek, the article didn't mention an artist paint that equates to that beautiful coral. Do you know of one?

Richard P, PY110 might come close to what you're looking for.

Dcam
01-15-2019, 02:18 PM
I thought we were talking "wishes".....I'm totally confused.

Pinguino
01-15-2019, 02:27 PM
I thought we were talking "wishes".....I'm totally confused.

Ah, the thread has gone OT, which is rather normal around here.

Best guess for modern single-pigment oil paint resembling "Living Coral" would use pigment PR255, which W&N calls "Scarlet Lake" or "Coral Red." Needs to be mixed with white to get a coral-like result. Color sample (https://www.dickblick.com/items/00461-3413/#colorswatch).

Dcam
01-15-2019, 02:30 PM
Yes, Richard did say "or something else"
Thanks "P". :)

Delofasht
01-15-2019, 02:50 PM
Ah, the thread has gone OT, which is rather normal around here.

Best guess for modern single-pigment oil paint resembling "Living Coral" would use pigment PR255, which W&N calls "Scarlet Lake" or "Coral Red." Needs to be mixed with white to get a coral-like result. Color sample (https://www.dickblick.com/items/00461-3413/#colorswatch).

Interesting, I would have opted for PO 73:

https://cdn.dick-blick.com/items/015/73/swatches/01573_ScarletPyrrol_3773-m.jpg (https://cdn.dick-blick.com/items/015/73/swatches/01573_ScarletPyrrol_3773-l.jpg)
Click to see bigger.

Richard P
01-15-2019, 03:46 PM
Derek, the article didn't mention an artist paint that equates to that beautiful coral. Do you know of one?

Richard P, PY110 might come close to what you're looking for.

Thanks Annie. I don't think PY110 has a tinting strength close to a Pthtalo though does it?

Dcam
01-15-2019, 03:53 PM
Hmmmmm I got a good result with this today: "Brilliant Rose".
Just a student line of course.....Georgian.


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnLPqkYyLHw1rcpe30iTUEqpPTZeiyatKt8JNPCfdUhD8gX7OILfaCY3RdvwPJJj_f61c6NqV-WJY&usqp=CAc

Dcam
01-15-2019, 04:12 PM
Brilliant rose on left with T White
Carmine on right with T white


(old tube of carmine).


I could swear though, there is a tad of orange in the pantone coral....methinks?




http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2019/183894-carmine.jpg


ANNIE: lets work in a limited Palette of "Living Coral" and "Celadon".

AnnieA
01-15-2019, 07:30 PM
Thanks Annie. I don't think PY110 has a tinting strength close to a Pthtalo though does it?
Well, no, probably not really as strong as a pthalo, but it does have surprising tinting strength. I'm speaking of the Cobra WMO version, Indian Yellow, which is a beautiful paint.

Dcam
01-15-2019, 07:37 PM
You missed this part Annie:
ANNIE: lets work in a limited Palette of "Living Coral" and "Celadon".
__________________

AnnieA
01-15-2019, 08:09 PM
You missed this part Annie:
ANNIE: lets work in a limited Palette of "Living Coral" and "Celadon".
__________________
Heh, Derek, I guess I did. Sounds intriguing. Are they true complements, I wonder...they look as if they might create exquisite grays, but you never really know. You may have been kidding, but I kinda like the idea. :D

...but I wonder if I'm just falling for those romantic color names. Occupational hazzard, I guess.

BTW, isn't there always some orange in the color "coral?" On my monitor it looks like there's a bit of orange in the Brilliant Rose paint too, and it seems pretty close to the hue of the Pantone coral.

Dcam
01-15-2019, 08:20 PM
Yes: I'm going to experiment a bit more with a bit of orange.
Romantic color names? I love em'. I'm one of those strange painters who doesn't bother about pigment numbers at all and I get along just fine. :eek:

AnnieA
01-15-2019, 08:25 PM
Yes: I'm going to experiment a bit more with a bit of orange.
Romantic color names? I love em'. I'm one of those strange painters who doesn't bother about pigment numbers at all and I get a long just fine.
There is a ton of hidden Celadon in this one.



http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2019/183894-gray2.jpg



That's an amazing painting, Derek! Beautiful! Yeah, I can see the subtle green tones.



Actually, if you look at the paint chip for Living Coral it's way more orange. The graphic they used to illustrate the color isn't really just one color but varies from a yellowy orange to a reddish orange. But here's a link to the actual paint chip for the color: https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/16-1546-TPX
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2019/85002-pantone_16-1546_TPX_living_coral.jpegAnd then, for comparison here is the illustration:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/15-Jan-2019/85002-Pantone_Living_Coral_illustration.jpeg

Dcam
01-15-2019, 08:32 PM
"Actually, if you look at the paint chip for Living Coral it's way more orange."


yes, this is what I'm saying. :)

AnnieA
01-15-2019, 08:38 PM
,,,yes, this is what I'm saying. :)

Well we're both saying the same thing then! :lol:

Dcam
01-15-2019, 08:43 PM
Great Minds.........:angel:

AnnieA
01-15-2019, 08:53 PM
Great minds indeed! :D

It looks a lot like Benzimidazalone orange to me, PO36. The only mfg I could find is Art Treehouse: https://arttreehouse.com/artstore/product/benzi-orange-artist-colour/ (https://arttreehouse.com/artstore/product/benzi-orange-artist-colour/)
It looks like Da Vinci and W&N no longer use it for oil paint.

And the other Benzi Orange PO 60 apparently isn't used for oil paint (yet?) but the pigment is here:
https://www.guerrapaint.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=145_101_104_114&products_id=83


Sorry about the CI numbers. And I guess "benzimidazalone" isn't a very romantic name...

Delofasht
01-15-2019, 09:51 PM
I love Benzi Orange PO 36, Coral is a lot like PO 73 as well. Funny enough M Graham actually makes a paint called Azo Coral (a mix of PO 62 and PR 254).

dlWood
01-22-2019, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Delofasht
YinMn Blue... that is all I need and currently cannot find on the market. It fills the only spot on my palette that I cannot get filled, opaque, high tinting, blue that leans toward violet.

Seems that pigment for artists won't be coming anytime soon :crying: :

Originally Posted by Delofasht
YinMn Blue... that is all I need and currently cannot find on the market. It fills the only spot on my palette that I cannot get filled, opaque, high tinting, blue that leans toward violet.

Gigalot
01-26-2019, 02:13 AM
What would you choose?

A high chroma and lightfast true purple
A transparent white without the issues with zinc white
A white like lead white that strengthens paint films without any toxicity
An opaque and completely non-toxic bright yellow

Or something else? :)
A high chroma and lightfast true purple = PV55 and PV16 pigments
A transparent white without the issues with zinc white = dispersed egg shell white
A white like lead white that strengthens paint films without any toxicity = Zinc White
An opaque and completely non-toxic bright yellow = Strontium Yellow and Bismuth Yellow
I think, I have all I need to paint except some time and energy.
:wave:

Antonin
01-26-2019, 04:01 AM
A high chroma and lightfast true purple = PV55 and PV16 pigments
A transparent white without the issues with zinc white = dispersed egg shell white
A white like lead white that strengthens paint films without any toxicity = Zinc White
An opaque and completely non-toxic bright yellow = Strontium Yellow and Bismuth Yellow
I think, I have all I need to paint except some time and energy.
:wave:
Isn't PV 16 a little too red and slightly dull to be called a high chroma purple?

PV 55 is a nice clean purple but who makes it as an oil color aside from Daniel Smith (DS oil colors I've tried don't seem to have high pigment load)? Who carries it as a pigment?

I've never tried egg shell in oil is it any more opaque than precipitated chalk? Do you have to use it coarsely ground to be more opaque? What do you do about the membrane that tends to stick to the shell?

Doesn't Zinc White stiffen paint films not strengthen them? A stronger paint film shouldn't shatter like glass.

Gigalot
01-26-2019, 05:55 AM
Doesn't Zinc White stiffen paint films not strengthen them? A stronger paint film shouldn't shatter like glass.
Zinc White strengthen paint film just like carbon strengthen steel. The issue comes with high concentration. For steel 0,3-0,6% C is OK. For paint you must add small amount of Zinc because it is much more reactive than Lead. I use 1% of Zinc White added to Zinc-free Titanium White/Filler oil paint. My white is always well dried and still flexible during 10 years of use. The result seems to be much better than of pure Titanium White/Filler itself. Zinc is definitely most important paint film additive for Whites, it fixes 3D network molecular structure of dried Linseed oil polymer and prevents polymer from hydrolysis degradation over time.

sidbledsoe
01-26-2019, 09:25 AM
Or something else?
I'm happy with earths and a few others and there are way more pigments out there than I will ever need, so nothing needed for me.
I will turn it around now, if there was one pigment out there that I could eliminate it would surely be the phthalos.

Delofasht
01-26-2019, 10:10 PM
Sid: Why so much hate of the phthalos? (I may use mine rarely, but do not mind itís existence for those who like it more)

sidbledsoe
01-26-2019, 11:58 PM
no hate, just trying to pick my least used pigment, and I wouldn't want them to be pried from the fingers of anyone else.s cold dead hands!

Gigalot
01-27-2019, 05:09 AM
no hate, just trying to pick my least used pigment, and I wouldn't want them to be pried from the fingers of anyone else.s cold dead hands!
Actually, phthalo is a basic pigment for many modern convenience mixtures like
Sap Green; Hookers green; Cinnabar Green; Sky Blue; Cerulean HUE e.t.c

Raffless
01-27-2019, 09:51 AM
Phthalo are in the tv colour palette. Popularised by Bob Ross. Charles Evans(watercolour). Helen van Wyke to name but a few. Convenient for tight tv scheduling.

Richard P
01-27-2019, 03:04 PM
I like Pthtalos a lot. :)

sidbledsoe
01-27-2019, 07:11 PM
that's it, i also love the color of phthalos, but don't use them because they are
bullies, so my new pigment would be a phthalo color pigment that was not a savage beast.

AnnieA
01-29-2019, 11:21 AM
Sid, I often use pthalos in student grade. It doesn't make a ton of difference - they're still very strong - but I figure the extra fillers tame them down a little. As Alex notes, they're often found in mixed form in paints that are "hues." In the Grumbacher line, Manganese Blue Hue is a gorgeous paint, currently made of Pthalo Blue and Pthalo Green mixed with titanium white (I think my old tube of it may not include the Pthalo Green, but I'm sure there are other "hues" in other brands mixed only with Pthalo Blue).

But you probably know all this...

Pinguino
01-29-2019, 12:00 PM
that's it, i also love the color of phthalos, but don't use them because they are bullies, so my new pigment would be a phthalo color pigment that was not a savage beast. As I've mentioned on other threads: I use PB15:4 (Phthalo Blue, Green Shade), for which Venetian Red is an excellent mixing complement. W&N's Transparent Red Ochre also works (but not Transparent Red Earth of other brands). I believe that results are about the same with PB15:1 instead.

So, when I reach for the PB, I also reach for the VR. Tames that savage beast. And if the mix is a touch greener than I'd like, that is very easily fixed with a microscopic amount of a rose color.

Why not a pre-mixed "tamed" color? Could be done, but chroma cannot be restored once tamed. It's easy enough to mix as needed from the single pigments. The key is that VR is itself a low-chroma color, so that the target mixed color is easy to find.

On the other hand, the Phthalo Greens are tamable using certain red or rose colors, but these are also high chroma, so that the target mixture is hard to hit repeatedly.