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Pinguino
01-04-2019, 01:12 PM
EDIT: Moderator, can you please move this to the Oil Painting/Technology forum?

The subject is "low-opacity white" that can be purchased in tubes as prepared oil paint. I realize that enthusiasts can make their own paint from pigment/filler and oil, but I am not interested in do-it-yourself.

Existing WC threads on this topic are several years old. In many cases, someone commented that "they would like to try" one or more of the existing low-opacity white paints, but then never reported a result. I did find an external web site where someone performed a yellowing test on many kinds of white, including some low-opacity whites. But unfortunately, it is not known (to me) whether the oil vehicles have changed, or whether the tests were performed in dark storage conditions (which promote yellowing).

The most prominent low-opacity white is Zinc White, which I already have. But due to concerns (real or imaginary) about the long-term performance of high-Zinc oil paints, I will disregard pure Zinc White. OK if it is a small component of some other paint.

Lead White is out of the question. Period.

Currently I can mix some of Gamblin's Solvent-Free Gel with ordinary Titanium/Zinc White, effectively diluting the pigment. But it seems to me that this is not best practice.

After looking around, among widely-available paints, I have come across two candidate types: (1) Pigment is Strontium Titanate. (2) Pigment is micro-particle or nano-particle Titanium White. Either of these types may also contain other fillers, or some Zinc White.

Has anyone used any of these low-opacity white paint types? Are they really much less opaque than ordinary Titanium/Zinc White? Do they perform well? Any known problems?

My application involves glazing with color, so that the result is slightly lighter than the underlayer, rather than darker.

Richard P
01-04-2019, 02:47 PM
What about Barium Sulfate (PW5)?

Williamsburg offer it:

"SF Porcelain White
Series: 4
CI #: NA
CI Name: PW5
Pigment Name: Complex co-precipitate of barium sulfate and zinc sulfide
Lightfastness: Excellent
Opacity: Semi-Opaque
Grind: Very Fine
A good alternative for those concerned with the brittleness of Zinc White. Historically known by a variety of names, we chose the one we felt was the most descriptive."

Pinguino
01-04-2019, 06:15 PM
PW5 seems possible, but I'm cautious about the "semi-opaque" thing. If all I want is a little bit less opaque than my existing T/Z White, I'll just add some gel. Anyway, I am looking for user experiences.

ragtopcircus
01-05-2019, 01:18 AM
Holbein’s Ceramic White is a mix of strontium and titanium pigments. It is more transparent than regular titanium, less chalky in tints, and doesn’t “kill the color” like titanium can. I don’t if I’d call it “much less opaque”, but it is enough to be a noticeable difference. I like it ....

Pinguino
01-05-2019, 02:17 PM
Thanks ragtopcircus. According to Holbein's own site, Ceramic White performs as you just described it. I may try it (must order online) but it's not cheap, even at discount. However, I was actually looking for "much less opaque" if I can get it.

Has anyone tried Rembrandt's "Transparent White"? According to the manufacturer, this product is much more transparent than other whites, even more than Zinc White. But I notice that it is pigmented by PW6/PW4, making me wonder if it is simply ordinary T/Z white diluted with more oil and filler. I can do that myself, using T/Z white and gel. The main advantage to having it pre-mixed, is that there won't be any "oops" if the brush has streaks of pure T/Z white. My local art store has Rembrandt oils on sale this month, so I can get the discount without ordering online.

AnnieA
01-05-2019, 02:48 PM
I've been using Holbein's Ceramic White as well, and find it as ragtopcircus described it. I've used it thinned with Galkyd gel with good results, as the galkyd will make it more transparent, and any transparentizing medium should do the same. The paint itself is not as transparent as zinc white, but unless we get something that shows zinc doesn't cause the reported problems, it's as good a substitute as can be found.

...With perhaps one exception, which I can't really adequately comment on because I haven't tried it myself. It's the paint described upthread as "barium sulfite," for which the common name is "lithopone." Williamsburg offers the Porcelain White ground in safflower, which should make it less yellowing, but less strong a paint film, and it's pretty expensive. Lukas offers a less expensive lithopone paint in both their artist and student grade which they call "Opaque White," even though the Color of Art database describes lithopone as being between titanium and zinc in transparency. I don't recall who it was now, but someone here at WC told me that he had tried both the Holbein and the Lukas paint, and found the latter far superior.

LeFranc & Bourgeois also apparently make a "Blanc de Titane" which is supposed to contain lithopone, but I'm not certain they distribute it in the U.S. anymore. Since it appears their site is done completely in the French language, I'm not able to see if there is any distributor here.

Pinguino, if you live anywhere near a Blick store, there are often good sales and sometimes they even offer a 40% off coupon for instore purchases. They regularly offer online sales too.

Pinguino
01-05-2019, 03:18 PM
Thanks, Annie. I can buy from Blick either online or when I visit SF. As I mentioned, my local art store has specific product line sales from time to time, which makes the price similar.

I saw the info about Lithopone, but after looking around the Internet, I'm not sure whether or not it's the right thing. May do the Holbein (online via Blick, as it is not locally available). But I'd still like to hear from anyone who has tried the Rembrandt Transparent White.

Of course, if I planned ahead and got my values right in the beginning (much lighter than final, in areas that will be glazed) then this wouldn't be necessary.

Richard P
01-05-2019, 04:24 PM
Is there a problem with creating an oil paint film using just Calcium Carbonate (chalk)? I can only find one by maimeri:
https://www.dickblick.com/items/02106-1023/#colorpigments

Wouldn't chalk and titanium white make a controllable (in terms of transparency) white?

Dcam
01-05-2019, 04:30 PM
I also have used the Holbein Ceramic....might be what you need?

savras
01-05-2019, 04:39 PM
Is there a problem with creating an oil paint film using just Calcium Carbonate (chalk)? I can only find one by maimeri:
https://www.dickblick.com/items/02106-1023/#colorpigments

Wouldn't chalk and titanium white make a controllable (in terms of transparency) white?Calcium carbonate is a weak tinter in oil and because of that - as you can clearly see from your link - it isn't even white as an oil paint. Therefore it's more like filler/extender than pigment. Plus due to low tinting it is prone to yellowing.

RomanB
01-05-2019, 04:46 PM
Natural Pigments sell Barite oil paint (https://www.naturalpigments.com/barite-50ml.html) made of Barium Sulfate - it is probably the least opaque white which is still white and not just a transparent extender like fumed silica or kaolin. All such paints suffer from one similar problem - excessive yellowing of oil binder.

Pinguino
01-05-2019, 05:48 PM
Thanks all. If Dcam likes Holbein's Ceramic White, then it might be just what I need. Still hoping that someone can report on Rembrandt's Transparent White.

The Barite paint seems to have an off-white hue. Might confuse the way I due glazes.

The Maimeri White Earth from Carrara is cheap, has an easily understood pigment, and probably wouldn't go to waste. I hadn't noted its existence, even though I've already worked my way through the Blick site. Probably has something to do with the product name. But apparently the pigment is coarse-ground, which is not very suitable for top-layer glazes. After looking at Maimeri's own color samples, it seems that the coarseness is irregular, so that any attempt to produce a translucent glaze would be speckled.

Already I achieve my goal the hard way: Mixing ordinary T/Z White with transparent gel (I do not know what filler is used in the gel). The only problem is trying to hit a reliable amount of transparency when starting from two extremes. It's like trying to hit gray using two high-chroma mixing complements. I am hoping for a good starting point, which (if necessary) can be further tweaked.

On the external site about yellowing whites, I did notice that the less opaque paints yellowed more, even if formulated with safflower oil. But that's easy to understand, unless the pigment used is causing the oil to yellow even more than it would by itself. In any case, my application might not care about that. I want to be able to lighten areas just a touch, and the lightening won't be done with plain white, it will be done with a transparent yellow color (such as PY128, PY110, or PY129) or possibly even a transparent green mix.

So, unless I hear from a Rembrandt user, it looks like the Holbein's paint is likely to be the winner.

Antonin
01-05-2019, 07:18 PM
Already I achieve my goal the hard way: Mixing ordinary T/Z White with transparent gel (I do not know what filler is used in the gel). The only problem is trying to hit a reliable amount of transparency when starting from two extremes.

Gamblin is adding fumed silica to make their solvent free gel. It's probably 90% safflower oil/alkyd resin because the fumed silica is so light and oil hungry. A little fumed silica (by weight) gels a lot of oil. Excessive binder and binder yellowing could be a problem if you use their gel to make titanium semi-transparent.
Barium sulfate is the complete opposite. It's similar to white lead in oil absorbance - 9 grams oil / 100 grams pigment (WL) vs 11 grams oil / 100 grams pigment (BS). And Rublev's barium sulfate isn't a coarse pigment (3 micron median particle size; for comparison ultramarine's median particle size is 2-4 microns). Adding a little titanium white will give you any degree of semi-transparency.
https://www.naturalpigments.com/barite-500g.html
https://www.naturalpigments.com/barite-oil-paint.html

AnnieA
01-05-2019, 08:11 PM
Pinguino, I noticed that Maimeri White Earth from Carrara paint but decided not to mention it. If you look at the paint swatch on the Blick site, you'll see it comes pre-yellowed for you. :D

Delofasht
01-05-2019, 10:23 PM
Clear extenders (like painting gels) added to white tend to work for making transparent whites, but of course these may end up yellowing over time due to the binders. I generally mix up some extender from calcium carbonate and walnut oil and mix that with my white paint on the palette before I start painting. Antonin provides an alternative pigment that should work excellently, and if I recall correctly, Barium Sulfate (PW 21 or 22) is the primary additive to Permabla White Original (which retains the highest degree of brightness in a number of white yellowing tests).

AnnieA
01-05-2019, 11:04 PM
Clear extenders (like painting gels) added to white tend to work for making transparent whites, but of course these may end up yellowing over time due to the binders. I generally mix up some extender from calcium carbonate and walnut oil and mix that with my white paint on the palette before I start painting. Antonin provides an alternative pigment that should work excellently, and if I recall correctly, Barium Sulfate (PW 21 or 22) is the primary additive to Permabla White Original (which retains the highest degree of brightness in a number of white yellowing tests).
Just to follow up on the painting gel issue, Art Treehouse makes one out of water-washed walnut oil and fumed silica, and these are materials that yellow far less than linseed oil-based mediums. My one quibble with it is that it seems very thick, and needs to be thinned with something else. For me that "something else" has often been gamvar, which of course sort of defeats the purpose of seeking a solvent-free medium! :lol: But it's still a good product for those wanting something transparent and less yellowing. Check it out here: https://arttreehouse.com/artstore/product/walnut-painting-gel/

One other thing: both PW21 and PW22 are used to make paints more opaque, so they're probably not what pinguino is looking for. OTOH, the same thing is said of lithopone as well, so who knows.

Delofasht
01-05-2019, 11:51 PM
I use that Water Washed Walnut Oil Painting Gel by Art Treehouse, I rather like it! I have never been very reliant on solvent, so if I need the paint to be more mobile I just add a touch of walnut oil usually (or oil out the area I plan to paint over). It is less yellowing, even in tests, but once again, my own extender is less yellowing as well; it being made of water washed walnut oil as well and calcium carbonate is basically transparent in oil (though it looks very light gray in a pile).

Any of these additives tend to add some opacity to the paint, but Barium Sulfate, Silica, and Calcium Carbonate have all been used for a long time as mostly transparent fillers or extenders. The tiny amount of added opacity is generally when adding them to extremely transparent paints directly, mixing the dust directly into the paint (somewhat useful for soaking up some excess oil out of particularly loose paint). In most literature, they are referenced as used to add opacity, but that aspect has usually been with water based media (adding calcium carbonate to watercolor makes gouache for example).

AnnieA
01-06-2019, 12:07 AM
... calcium carbonate is basically transparent in oil (though it looks very light gray in a pile).

Any of these additives tend to add some opacity to the paint, but Barium Sulfate, Silica, and Calcium Carbonate have all been used for a long time as mostly transparent fillers or extenders. The tiny amount of added opacity is generally when adding them to extremely transparent paints directly, mixing the dust directly into the paint (somewhat useful for soaking up some excess oil out of particularly loose paint). In most literature, they are referenced as used to add opacity, but that aspect has usually been with water based media (adding calcium carbonate to watercolor makes gouache for example).
Ah, thanks for that, Delo! You cleared up an apparent contradiction that was puzzling me. I should have realized that it's just that some of these pigments behave very differently in oil than in watercolor, just like Handprint says.

Antonin
01-06-2019, 01:04 AM
One other thing: both PW21 and PW22 are used to make paints more opaque, so they're probably not what pinguino is looking for. OTOH, the same thing is said of lithopone as well, so who knows.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jan-2019/1976029-Barium_Sulfate_2.jpg

Here are samples of Barium Sulfate, Titanium reduced 1:3 with Barium Sulfate and Zinc white - all in oil (on top of a dried film of Alizarin Crimson substitute).
I smeared the Barium Sulfate sample more thickly than the other two whites or it would have just looked like an un-pigmented oil film.

ronsu18
01-06-2019, 01:15 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: a beautiful white! (derailing)
do you usually make your own with barium? that's as beautiful as the L&B titanium RIP..
i've located its components, mixing seems a bore.

Antonin
01-06-2019, 01:40 AM
:clap: :clap: :clap: a beautiful white! (derailing)
do you usually make your own with barium? that's as beautiful as the L&B titanium RIP..
i've located its components, mixing seems a bore.

I just mix it in a 16oz round glass (mayonnaise) jar with a large stainless steel serving spoon.
I put a little linseed oil in the bottom of the jar. Then half fill it with pigment. Add a little more oil and stir and press against the sides of the jar. And scrape and continue to stir. Over and over.
I do the same thing with titanium white and lead white.
After the paste seems smooth I tube it ( I try to make it as thick as possible because freshly made paint always becomes more liquid on standing).
When I'm ready to paint, I squirt some paint out on a sheet of copy paper to remove excess oil and then work it a little (very little) on the palette (at which time I'll add a little medium). It's smooth and nice!
All 3 of these pigments harden in the tube because the oily parts come out first - so the remainder of the paint becomes oil starved. It's still usable but you have to cut open the tube to remove.
I have a muller and glass plate but they're such a pain to clean and this gives an equivalent result. (At least with finely and evenly milled pigments like these three).
Be careful where you source the Barium Sulfate. Some of it's coarser than you might want (some even have little black specks). Look for the median particle size in the spec sheet - it should be 3 microns. Natural Pigments has the right type: https://www.naturalpigments.com/barite-500g.html

ronsu18
01-06-2019, 02:22 AM
you're obviously a true painter - unlike me. i looked for one place selling all three, tubed titanium, zinc and lithopone, and have found one. mixing these on a palette every single time is a hurdle but one i'll soon try to make a routine. you are just one more proof that making your own paint makes all the difference.

un-derailing guiltily; my transparent white is mussini glazing white. more zinc than titanium, brilliant, and barely there. it's the only glazing white (lake) i managed to find. if looking for a substitute based on transparency, student versions of "mixing white" would be the first place to look.

Antonin
01-06-2019, 02:28 AM
you're obviously a true painter - unlike me. i looked for one place selling all three, tubed titanium, zinc and lithopone, and have found one. mixing these on a palette every single time is a hurdle but one i'll soon try to make a routine. you are just one more proof that making your own paint makes all the difference.
Just make the Barium Sulfate. You can use it with readymade paints and it'll give them a more flowing quality. It's nice to adjust the transparency of paints on the fly.
Lithopone isn't the same as Barium Sulfate - it has zinc sulphide co-precipitated with the barium sulfate so it's definitely white not transparent-translucent.

Pinguino
01-06-2019, 04:30 PM
Thanks to all!

Although I cannot mix pigment with oil to make paint (the folks in my vicinity, with small children, would object), I can possibly use Calcium Carbonate (chalk) if I can find it in a consistently fine form. As long as it can be added "on the fly" to paint, rather than ground in, that might work.

I'll put Holbein's Ceramic White on my to-do list, for some future time when I place an online order. It's not locally stocked.

Might purchase the Rembrandt Transparent White on a whim, seeing as how the local store has it on discount right now.

Although Barium Sulfate might be a useful filler, I don't think it will work for me, as it seems to be off-white, and "too transparent." No real improvement over existing fumed silica gel, as far as I can see.

I was under the general impression (don't know how I got it), that ultra-fine Titanium Dioxide particles can be used to create paints that are less opaque than normally seen with standard-particle sizes. Apparently that is done with some cosmetics or toothpastes. But AFAIK it would be a bad idea to make your own paint from the stuff (which I am not inclined to do in any case) because the ultra-fine particles are easily airborne when not already in the medium. In any case, I haven't seen any artist paint manufacturers advertise that they are using ultra-fine Titanium Dioxide.

Dcam
01-06-2019, 04:55 PM
Ceramic White **** A painting white developed by a joint research project of the Holbein Works Ltd. Laboratory and Japanese Government Industrial Laboratory, Ceramic White was developed to combine the most positive qualities of other painting whites when taken collectively. It contains titanium and strontium pigment which will not react with sulphur. Ceramic White offers superior surface strength without brittleness, increases tinting and covering power over lead and zinc, but when compared to titanium white, it offers increased transparency, drying time and visual whiteness. Excellent handling qualities.

Pinguino
01-06-2019, 06:47 PM
Ceramic White **** A painting white developed by a joint research project of the Holbein Works Ltd. Laboratory and Japanese Government Industrial Laboratory, Ceramic White was developed to combine the most positive qualities of other painting whites when taken collectively. It contains titanium and strontium pigment which will not react with sulphur. Ceramic White offers superior surface strength without brittleness, increases tinting and covering power over lead and zinc, but when compared to titanium white, it offers increased transparency, drying time and visual whiteness. Excellent handling qualities.

Yeah, I read that on the Holbein site. But your recommendation (twice!) counts for more. So, I will definitely get the stuff. Looks like I'll be the guinea pig for the Rembrandt product.

Incidentally: Quite apart from any archival issues with Zinc White (my paintings will not be valuable), I just don't like the way Zinc White paint handles. It's too "gooey" unlike all my other paints. My style prefers the others (I believe they are called "short"). Even T/Z white is a bit thick for my style, but that's not a problem, since I rarely have need for straight white (and can easily modify with a touch of gel).

Harold Roth
01-06-2019, 09:38 PM
I have been using lithopone (Williamsburg Porcelain in safflower oil) and strontium (Holbein Ceramic White). I would relate them to each other like this in terms of opacity:

zinc - lithopone - strontium - titanium/zinc - titanium

But the lithopone is nowhere near as transparent as zinc. However, I do not find as you have mentioned that it is off white. It just is not as blue as titanium. I like it more than the strontium because of what it does in mixtures. Just a good mixing white. I do use it when wanting to do mist or clouds and then use titanium for highlights. I used up my tube of strontium white and probably won't get more. Something about its color I don't like.

Pat Ryan
01-07-2019, 08:55 AM
Still hoping that someone can report on Rembrandt's Transparent White.

I've been using Winsor & Newton's transparent white, which, like the Rembrandt, is comprised of PW6 and PW4, although I don't know in what ratio. I've been using it for a reliably consistent transparent glaze over sections of sky and the like, either alone or tinted.

But I've been needing more "regular" white, and after reading in this thread about Holbein's ceramic white, I've added that to my online Blick shopping cart. Sounds pretty promising. I'll experiment with adding gel to make it more transparent when needs be.

AnnieA
01-07-2019, 11:00 AM
This is all very interesting and I've been following the discussion here closely. I'm curious, has anyone tried the Lukas Opaque White (hoping this is a misnomer), made of lithopone, in either the artist or student version? It's a lot less expensive than the Williamsburg offering, but then, I think it may be ground in linseed, rather than the safflower oil used by WB.

Pinguino
01-07-2019, 12:49 PM
Winsor & Newton do not seem to offer a "Transparent White" artist oil paint. It is not listed on either the W&N UK or American web sites, and is not locally stocked. Perhaps that is an obsolete paint?

I would expect that most white would not be ground in linseed oil.

As for lithopone being off-white (per my earlier post), that was based on straight Barium Sulfate (very transparent, shows oil yellowing) rather than the more complex lithopone.

I hadn't thought of this before: Perhaps it is possible to re-condition ordinary Zinc White, so that it behaves more like other paints. That is, perhaps adding some alkyd-enhanced medium will both imprive the paint film, and "shorten" the paint? Result is not obvious. To be investigated!

Pinguino
01-07-2019, 12:58 PM
if looking for a substitute based on transparency, student versions of "mixing white" would be the first place to look.

Indeed, such exist. But AFAIK they use linseed oil rather than safflower oil, which might be undesirable. So it's worth checking with the manufacturer's site.

Dcam
01-07-2019, 01:19 PM
I just used some Ceramic with a little medium (Liquin Light Gel) to lighten up areas of a landscape.
Lets face it, each artist has their "druthers".

Richard P
01-07-2019, 01:33 PM
If you diluted titanium white with enough solvent/oil/extender would the affect be the same as using zinc white?

Pinguino
01-07-2019, 01:55 PM
Just placed order for Holbein's Ceramic White (Stronium Titanate) and Rembrandt's Transparent White (apparently diluted T/Z). Luckily, an artist friend had some lithopone-based white (not sure which brand) which she will let me try. She says she hardly uses it.

I have already been diluting T/Z with clear gel. I actually like the performance better than using straight Zinc White, but that's in temrs of brushability. Have yet to try diluting the Zinc White.

Incidentally, Holbein notes that Strontium Titanate is not actually a pigment. Apparently, on the scale of crystal particles, it is nearly transparent. Presumably the paint gets its moderate opacity from the refraction at crystal/medium boundaries. If so, that's what I like to hear. Further info:

No paint is truly transparent or opaque, but some are nearlly so. Opacity can be caused by pigment particles that are inherently opaque. This is how Venetian Red gets its opacity. But most pigment particles, whether mineral or organic, are not inherently opaque, they are only somewhat opaque (or nearly transparent, like ground-up glass). In this case, paint opacity comes from a combination of particle opacity (which will depend strongly on particle size), and the difference between the refractive index of the particles and the surrounding medium (as well as number of particles). When an oil paint cures, its refractive index increases, so there is less difference between particles and medium; then, the paint becomes more transparent as it cures. (With some paints, such as Lead White, there is also a long-term chemical effect.)

Harold Roth
01-07-2019, 09:44 PM
Incidentally, Holbein notes that Strontium Titanate is not actually a pigment. Apparently, on the scale of crystal particles, it is nearly transparent. Presumably the paint gets its moderate opacity from the refraction at crystal/medium boundaries. If so, that's what I like to hear.
I read the same thing, but in action, it looks and acts like an opaque white. At least, in my experience.

Harold Roth
01-07-2019, 09:47 PM
If you diluted titanium white with enough solvent/oil/extender would the affect be the same as using zinc white?
Not for me. I think titanium always looks chalky no matter how much it is diluted with oil. I don't use other mediums, so I can't say. I use it only for highlights or if I want to cover up a previous painting.

Pinguino
01-07-2019, 10:34 PM
(1) I read the same thing, but in action, it looks and acts like an opaque white. At least, in my experience. (2) I think titanium always looks chalky no matter how much it is diluted with oil.
(1) If so, that's too bad. I don't need to pay 3X the price for an alternative to ordinary T/Z. So, when I get the stuff and play with it, I'll decide whether HR or Dcam were more in line with my thoughts.

Incidentally, Strontium Titanate was originally intended as a fake diamond gemstone material. Nowadays Cubic Zirconia is used for that purpose. But Strontium Titanate has a lot of uses in the electronics industries. Its availability in artist paints, or any paint, is strictly a sideline.

(2) I also think so, but remember that my application is not applying white highlights, it is lightening a glaze of some other color. We'll see what the stuff from W&N does; maybe they have a magic touch.

I won't have all the paints and test samples ready for at least 2 weeks.

Richard P
01-08-2019, 04:14 AM
That's a shame. Of course if you wanted to warm up the scene as well you could use a small amount of PY128.

What about waiting a year and then glazing with acrylic zinc paint? ;)

Raffless
01-08-2019, 08:31 AM
I've never seen or heard of transparent white. Zinc white semi transparent yes. What do you use it for? I know Rembrandt used a white wash during a stage in his process to give greater depth but nothing else.

Pinguino
01-15-2019, 09:58 PM
Results are in this other thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1460017http://).

Richard P
01-16-2019, 04:41 AM
I was wondering.. you can get synthetic iron oxides that are extremely opaque, and versions that are transparent because the iron oxide particles have been cut to extremely small sizes with lasers. Well, couldn't you do the same with titanium white? I imagine there isn't the demand for it from industries, but I wonder if theoretically it's possible.

Raffless
01-16-2019, 10:43 AM
I was wondering.. you can get synthetic iron oxides that are extremely opaque, and versions that are transparent because the iron oxide particles have been cut to extremely small sizes with lasers. Well, couldn't you do the same with titanium white? I imagine there isn't the demand for it from industries, but I wonder if theoretically it's possible.

All i know is Titanium is renown for its incredible 'shear' strength. Its very very hard to break. So going on just that id say its very difficult to grind very small. Wheras Zinc is very brittle and easy to break. And can be ground small. Hence its transparency.

Pinguino
01-16-2019, 11:34 AM
I was wondering.. you can get synthetic iron oxides that are extremely opaque, and versions that are transparent because the iron oxide particles have been cut to extremely small sizes with lasers. Well, couldn't you do the same with titanium white? I imagine there isn't the demand for it from industries, but I wonder if theoretically it's possible.
Already exists with TiO2. Known as "nanoparticles" and used in some non-paint products. Costs a lot more.

All i know is Titanium is renown for its incredible 'shear' strength. Its very very hard to break. So going on just that id say its very difficult to grind very small. Wheras Zinc is very brittle and easy to break. And can be ground small. Hence its transparency.
The nanoparticles are not made by grinding. They are directly created at that size. One reason they cost so much.

Raffless
01-16-2019, 12:23 PM
Already exists with TiO2. Known as "nanoparticles" and used in some non-paint products. Costs a lot more.


The nanoparticles are not made by grinding. They are directly created at that size. One reason they cost so much.

Highly Toxic as well!:)

ronsu18
01-16-2019, 12:37 PM
I've never seen or heard of transparent white. Zinc white semi transparent yes. What do you use it for? I know Rembrandt used a white wash during a stage in his process to give greater depth but nothing else.

mix it with something and paint nine layers of breathless whispery glazes. or paint light, actual light like crepuscular rays, other atmospheric effects as already meantioned. the transparency function in layering is the same in white as in any other color. and hey, let's remember that even in tech forum there are people who paint non representational, surreal and experimental stuff 😊.

Pinguino
01-16-2019, 12:49 PM
Highly Toxic as well!
Yes, primarily because the small particle size "weaponizes" what would otherwise be a non-toxic material.

Pinguino
01-16-2019, 12:52 PM
For those who just dropped in... Be sure to see the results and discussion at my other thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1460017). Among other things, you will learn that "transparent white" is a misnomer.

Richard P
01-16-2019, 01:47 PM
Ah, ok, thanks all :)

AnnieA
01-16-2019, 02:39 PM
For those who just dropped in... Be sure to see the results and discussion at my other thread (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1460017). Among other things, you will learn that "transparent white" is a misnomer.
I don't usually quibble, but here goes:
Actually, there could be no "transparent" paints at all if using a definition of the term meaning "able to see through completely," as you seem to be doing. Any such paints would need to be completely colorless, yet we refer to transparent pigments, such as ultramarine blue, PB29, all the time. In oils and other paints, the common use of "transparent" refers to the ability, when the paint is laid down in reasonably thin layers, to see through the paint to whatever lies below. So it's not really a misnomer. A slightly more accurate term might be "translucent," but "transparent" has been the term in common use in the art world for a very long time. There are of course, differing amounts of paint transparency, and that's probably what you're talking about. Maybe you're saying that no white paint can go beyond "semi-transparent"?

As I hit "save" just now, I realized that my motivation for writing this is that I really want a white paint that is at least semi-transparent. :lol: <laughing at self

Pinguino
01-16-2019, 05:04 PM
I don't usually quibble, but here goes: Actually, there could be no "transparent" paints at all... Aiiii... triggered! :eek:

I recall that when I was in grade school, the textbook defined transparent (science, not art) as allowing all light to pass through. It then listed colored cellophane (remember that stuff?) as examples of transparent materials, thus contradicting itself.

But that was so long ago, John Lennon played Skittle instead of Rock and Roll.

Richard P
01-16-2019, 06:18 PM
translucent?

Pinguino
01-16-2019, 07:05 PM
translucent? A translucent film (paint, glass, whatever) allows some light through, in a manner that blurs the light. A transparent film allows more or less light through without blurring it.

A neutral density filter, used before a camera lens, is partially transparent, but it is not translucent. A layer of "ideal" yellow paint (PY128 comes close) would be transparent in yellow, not translucent. A thin layer of Zinc Oxide is translucent. There is no "ideal" transparent white paint. To put this another way, it is possible to be "ideally" subtractive, but not "ideally" additive, in this context.

Raffless
01-16-2019, 07:38 PM
Aiiii... triggered! :eek:

I recall that when I was in grade school, the textbook defined transparent (science, not art) as allowing all light to pass through. It then listed colored cellophane (remember that stuff?) as examples of transparent materials, thus contradicting itself.

But that was so long ago, John Lennon played Skittle instead of Rock and Roll.

'Skiffle' but he would have liked your term im sure :)

Pinguino
01-16-2019, 08:46 PM
'Skiffle' but he would have liked your term im sure :) The moral of the story is: If your chewing gum loses its flavor on the bedpost overnight, try Skittles instead. :D