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jackbreakfast
12-29-2018, 01:24 PM
Hello!

My favorite dark pigment in watercolor is PBk31, and I recently tried it in oil paint - Perylene Black from Winsor and Newton. It is a delightful color, very useful indeed! I would like to try Schmincke's version as well, to see how it differs from the Winsor and Newton.

I wonder if anyone can recommend any other dark horse or underappreciated pigments! The lesser-known oil colors you can no longer live without!

Many thanks for your time and consideration!

Gigalot
12-29-2018, 01:40 PM
Pv55; Pv29; Pr187; Pr209

jackbreakfast
12-29-2018, 01:49 PM
Pv55; Pv29; Pr187; Pr209

Ah yes! PR209 is a delight, although I've never tried it in oils. I don't know the other three pigments at all, and I am excited to discover them. Can you recommend any particular brands?

Pinguino
12-29-2018, 02:24 PM
Having recently discovered PBk31 myself, I know what you mean.

I use PB15:4, Rembrandt's "Phthalo Blue, Green Shade" as cyan. I imagine that another brand's PB15:3 would be about the same (but not mere PB15 or PB15:1). I discovered that W&N's "Transparent Red Ochre" (TRO) is an excellent mixing complement to PB15:4. Note that this TRO is not the same as the "transparent red earth" or "transparent red oxide" of other brands, which do not perform as well against PB15:4. The color of TRO is more or less that of Venetian Red, except that Venetian Red is very opaque, whereas TRO is not.

By blending a little TRO into the PB15:4, I get nice cyan blues suited to light skies, with better control over chroma.

In the yellows, PY128, PY129, and PY110 are transparent colors with various hues to the left, center, or right of true yellow. I use them to add a little "glow" by thin application over dry paint. They also mix with various blues to make various greens.

W&N also makes a "Transparent Brown Oxide" which is a lot like other transparent versions of the earth colors, except that this one is really what I would call brown, rather than yellow, orange, or red. It's almost the brown equivalent of PBk31.

My favorite non-color color is Gamblin's "Solvent-Free Gel" which is a medium that comes in a tube, like paint. I add a touch of it to other colors when they are thicker than I'd like. Also can be used as a glazing medium, if you like to retain brush strokes.

I like Nickel Titanate Yellow (PY53). Useful for when I need an opaque yellow (not ochre), but don't want to start from a high-chroma color. Different brands seem to have different amounts of opacity, according to manufacturer's data.

Lately I've been getting to like W&N's "Terre Verte" which is real green earth tweaked with some Viridian. Very transparent and low-tinting, mid-green. Useful for green-ifying areas that are dried but not quite as green as intended. Different brands of "Terre Verte" or "Green Earth" will have different properties. The opposite effect, un-greening, can be achieved using one of the PV19 colors (I use Gamblin's Quinacridone Violet).

jackbreakfast
12-29-2018, 02:30 PM
Having recently discovered PBk31 myself, I know what you mean.

I like Nickel Titanate Yellow (PY53). Useful for when I need an opaque yellow (not ochre), but don't want to start from a high-chroma color. Different brands seem to have different amounts of opacity, according to manufacturer's data.



Thanks so much for this! I truly appreciate your recommendations. I also love PY53 and am particularly fond of Old Holland's.

JCannon
12-29-2018, 02:53 PM
For me, one obvious answer would be PO73, Pyrrole Orange, which is actually a Cad Red Light substitute.

A recently-discovered "must have" is PV16 or Permanent Mauve. Actually, I've had a tube of the stuff in my collection for decades -- but I almost never used it, since it seemed so delicate compared to Diox. Previously, my thinking was "When I want a purple, I want PURPLE."

But then I participated in a discussion of PV16 in one of these forums, which inspired me to try it out for a portrait. And now I cannot imagine painting flesh tones without it. When it comes to painting flesh in shadow, PV16 adds just the right touch of grey without turning the color into mud.

In short, this is not a violet for painting an eggplant or Pilate's toga or Killgrave's necktie. It's a violet for painting flesh.

Cobalt Yellow, or Aureolin, is a controversial choice, since many now consider it fugitive. But when used properly (as a glaze), there's nothing quite like it.

Prussian Blue (PB27) may fit into this category. All lines include it; it's not difficult to find, and even the student versions are usually pretty strong. But I just don't see this pigment much discussed these days -- not here, not on YouTube, and not in books. I wonder why that is?

When people recommend palettes to beginners, they often recommend Ultramarine as the only necessary blue. Personally, I could do without Ultramarine, but not PB27.

As a glaze or in a tint, this is the most mysterious and interesting of blues -- but I like it best when it functions as a black. When you've painted a face or some other warm-colored object, PB27 is the best way to strengthen dark areas: Eyes, eyelashes, creases, tiny dark hairs and so forth. Also the furrows and cracks in tree bark. Because this pigment is so intense, it is the perfect paint to use when you need to draw with paint.

contumacious
12-29-2018, 03:19 PM
I feel under gunned when I don't have any PY53 on my palette. My favorite offering so far is from Daniel Smith.

jackbreakfast
12-29-2018, 03:35 PM
But then I participated in a discussion of PV16 in one of these forums, which inspired me to try it out for a portrait. And now I cannot imagine painting flesh tones without it. When it comes to painting flesh in shadow, PV16 adds just the right touch of grey without turning the color into mud.


I have not tried manganese violet! I surely will! I do love Cobalt Violet but have only tried PV49, as opposed to the more popular PV14.

I agree with you wholeheartedly RE Prussian Blue. It is my favorite blue, without a close second!

And PO73 too, absolutely.

Thank you truly for your response.

french.painter
12-29-2018, 04:47 PM
I agree for manganese violet. The Sennelier PV16 mulled in pale linseed oil gives indeed a beautiful color, very useful to paint flesh colors. You seem to know well the trick, guys!

Dcam
12-29-2018, 05:08 PM
http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/i/intro/browsecolors/images/hb_1996.471.jpg


I find Celadon to be a lovely word as well as a lovely color. Used quite a bit in Asian pottery.
I can get it in acrylic. Has anyone found this in Oils?
Celadonite [KP.p | NP (http://www.naturalpigments.com/shop_main.asp?REFERER=artiscreation).p (http://www.naturalpigments.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=420-26S?REFERER=artiscreation)];

jackbreakfast
12-29-2018, 10:27 PM
I find Celadon to be a lovely word as well as a lovely color. Used quite a bit in Asian pottery.
I can get it in acrylic. Has anyone found this in Oils?
Celadonite


A lovely version of PG23. There are so many different PG23 paints to enjoy. I am looking now at Natural Pigments' Celadonite, and it does seem special. Perhaps it's worth getting hold of some and making your own oil paint?

Dcam
12-29-2018, 10:53 PM
Ahhh, Jack, it looks like Charvin carries 3 values of Celadon......now that is a brand I don't know much about.
Make my own paints? Admirable, but I'm so busy just painting. :)

RomanB
12-30-2018, 08:47 AM
1. Roman Black Earth. It doesn't have a standardised pigment number. Available from Zecchi and Natural Pigments. I find it to be the most useful black for mixing - very neutral, non-greasy. Making paint with it is much easier than with carbon blacks and it dries far faster.

2. PB 71 Zirconium Vanadium Blue. An interesting alternative to Cerulean. When Cobalt pigments will be banned by politicians, remember about it.

3. PY 41 Naples yellow. The real thing has its own character in oils and cannot really be substituted. The closest alternative to it seems to be PY 53 Nickel Antimony Titanium Yellow Rutile, but Titanium-based pigment is too chalky.

4. Lead Tin Yellow. A very subtle pigment for special occasions but is certainly worth having it. In oils it has properties somewhat similar to Lead White and the color and transparency are close to PY 32 Strontium Chromate, but Lead Tin Yellow handles better.

5. PY 184 Bismuth Vanadate Yellow. A good alternative to Cadmium yellows.

6. PBr 24 Chrome Antimony Titanate. Kremer's version of it is sold as Titanium Orange (https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/pigments/pigments-of-modern-age/spinel-pigments-und-similar-pigments/1409/titanium-orange) and it is more saturated than any Earth color but less than Cadmiums. Worth trying.

Pat Ryan
12-30-2018, 09:34 AM
Ahhh, Jack, it looks like Charvin carries 3 values of Celadon......now that is a brand I don't know much about.

I bought quite a bit of Charvin a while back, but ended up actually throwing some of it out. It tends to be very thick and pigment-intensive, which is fine, but too often the pigment is gritty--really gritty, like sand that won't dissolve no matter how much medium I work into it. Awful.

french.painter
12-30-2018, 11:54 AM
Chardin, their ultramarine blue is beautiful and really fine. I have not yet tried other colors from them.

melissacarmon
12-30-2018, 09:26 PM
What a delightful thread! :D

I would have to echo Gigalot with Pr209 as a favorite. I began to use this in mixes for the rosiest areas of cheeks and noses in portrait painting after OH changed their formulation for Brilliant Rose. There is an elusive color that I sometimes wish to create for portraitureó a very bright pink-orange that was approximated nicely by mixes using Naphthol a s. The shade has been hard for me to emulate without napthol. I would say PR 209 has been the most satisfying substitute, thought not a perfect substitute. It is also lovely in its own right, and I love the pinks it can create.

I would also echo Pinguino about PB15:4, though I am less familiar with 15:4 and more familiar with 15:3. And yes, very different from PB15 or 15:1. PB15:3 when mixed with PG50 is the closest I have been able to get to a cyan when using opaque media, and so the green cast of 15:3 has been quite valuable to me. I wouldnít say it is rare exactly, but maybe not often talked about.

On that note, PG50 is one that I use quite a lot, as it can help reach into cyan territory in opaque media (or opaque styles of oil painting). It is more useful than white to lighten Phthalo if I'm trying for a cyan. It also can be used to create candy-colored mixes-- interesting greens, interesting purples. Out of the tube it quite useful, and functions readily as a very nice accent to flesh tones. I'm not sure if it is really rare, but I don't remember hearing it mentioned much.

Recently I have been exploring PO62 to neutralize ultramarine (or ultramarine to neutralize it-- thanks to handprint). I am not sure if I would call it a rare pigment either, but if I remember correctly, it took a little bit of looking to find it as a single pigment in oil. It was in several mixtures. I bought a large tube of it in Gamblin as "permanent orange."

I also have liked PR179 and PBk31 quite a bit, thought I have found myself using them more frequently in gouache than in oil for some reason. ?

Also... Williamsburg's French Ardoise Grey has been really interesting to me lately. I have only just begun to use it, and I have been exploring its usefulness in neutralizing yellows. It is very gritty though, and for some that may be a drawback.

I'd also agree with those who mentioned PY53, PY184, and genuine naples yellow PY41. I have noticed different working qualities in PY41 than in other naples yellow mixes/hues. I'd really like to hear how others use PY41 and if they feel like they have found ways of using it to its fullest potential. I would love to hear if anyone else has tips for using it or creating effects that they really enjoy. 
Perhaps that is a topic for another thread. :)

Other interesting colors that deserve an honorable mention are PY157 Mussini (seems similar to PY53), PB16 OH (similar to PB15:3), PR242 Mussini (similar in a way to PR209 but leaning more orange).

Thanks for this great thread, Jack!

Delofasht
12-30-2018, 10:03 PM
I feel like PB 27 tends see a lot less usage than it used to, and kind of unfairly so. The better quality brands have very good quality Prussian Blue that performs very brightly in many mixes and gives a very large mixing range. I like to have a magenta and an orange yellow to go with it in my palette.

Another excellent pigment is PO 36, which I found available from Art Treehouse. It seems like a Vermillion in a lot of ways, but less opaque; tints toward pink, maybe wonderful yellow oranges when mixed with yellow. It also completely nuetralizes PB 27, and can get very muted greens and browns by leaning it more to one color or the other. Due to it being less opaque than Cadmiums or Vermillion, it mixes darks a bit easier. Truly needs to be tried to really understand how good it can be, fills a good hue range.

PY 184 is one of the most wonderful yellows I have gotten to use, similar in usage as Cad Yellow, but maybe a bit brighter even. Also slightly less opaque though, cleaner in mixes from what I have noticed. Definitely underrated and not well represented yet.

Oh and the last color I think really is under appreciated is PB 60, probably one of my favorite dark blues and gives me a very dark blue violet color. I actually prefer this over ultramarine most of the time now, it has a lot more tinting strength.

savras
12-31-2018, 03:08 AM
Recently I have been exploring PO62 to neutralize ultramarine (or ultramarine to neutralize it-- thanks to handprint). I am not sure if I would call it a rare pigment either, but if I remember correctly, it took a little bit of looking to find it as a single pigment in oil. It was in several mixtures. I bought a large tube of it in Gamblin as "permanent orange."It's very ubiquitous in watercolor, but in oil very few brands offer it and all are American ones:

Daniel Smith Permanent Orange
Gamblin Permanent Orange
MGraham Azo Orange

Richard P
12-31-2018, 04:29 AM
Probably not that underappreciated, but I like PBk11 (Mars Black) as I think it forms a stronger paint film that a Carbon Black.

jackbreakfast
12-31-2018, 03:33 PM
Probably not that underappreciated, but I like PBk11 (Mars Black) as I think it forms a stronger paint film that a Carbon Black.

As do I!

jackbreakfast
12-31-2018, 07:43 PM
Thank you all, truly and sincerely. I am delighted by your answers!

jackbreakfast
01-01-2019, 11:16 PM
What a delightful thread! :D

I would have to echo Gigalot with Pr209 as a favorite. I began to use this in mixes for the rosiest areas of cheeks and noses in portrait painting after OH changed their formulation for Brilliant Rose. There is an elusive color that I sometimes wish to create for portraitureó a very bright pink-orange that was approximated nicely by mixes using Naphthol a s. The shade has been hard for me to emulate without napthol. I would say PR 209 has been the most satisfying substitute, thought not a perfect substitute. It is also lovely in its own right, and I love the pinks it can create.


Is it PR112 we're talking about? I know that's what they use at M Graham, and I've used this pigment on occasion. The color is extraordinary, but I imagine it's the lightfastness that drove you away? Then there is PR170, another naphthol. I have never used this pigment myself. "They" say the naphthol lighfastness issue is more pronounced with watercolor than oil, but what do I know!

AnnieA
01-02-2019, 02:38 AM
http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/i/intro/browsecolors/images/hb_1996.471.jpg


I find Celadon to be a lovely word as well as a lovely color. Used quite a bit in Asian pottery.
I can get it in acrylic. Has anyone found this in Oils?
Celadonite [KP.p | NP (http://www.naturalpigments.com/shop_main.asp?REFERER=artiscreation).p (http://www.naturalpigments.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=420-26S?REFERER=artiscreation)];
Oh yes, the celadon hue is gorgeous; I have a tiny ceramic bowl, made by an old friend, that has a celadon glaze - I love it. I thought Dan Smith Primatek oils line might have it, but no. The line does have a Malachite, which may be pretty similar: http://danielsmith.com/primatek-original-oils/

For myself, PY110 is a favorite as it's perfect for sun-touched anything. Such a gorgeous color! I've gotten some good mileage out of Ceramic White, the Holbein name for Strontium Titanate, which the Color of Art Database describes as "Not quite as opaque as Titanium White but more opaque than Zinc White." It doesn't have a CI number. Someone suggested to me a while ago that Lithopone white, PW5 is similar but somewhat better. Both Williamsburg (in their Safflower line) and Lukas offer it in oil. It's opacity is listed at 2 (where 1 is most opaque and 4 is most transparent), while the strontium titianate paint is listed at 1-2 opacity, so the lithopone paint must be more transparent. For comparison, the opacity of zinc oxide is listed at 2. The Williamsburg paint is expensive (no surprise) but the Lukas brand is fairly reasonable. A more transparent white can be very useful when one needs to lighten a paint without a major effect on it's transparency or turning it chalky, as Titanium does.

Seaside Artist
01-03-2019, 05:10 AM
I bought quite a bit of Charvin a while back, but ended up actually throwing some of it out. It tends to be very thick and pigment-intensive, which is fine, but too often the pigment is gritty--really gritty, like sand that won't dissolve no matter how much medium I work into it. Awful.



Pat...did you buy the "fine" or "extra fine" Charvin oil paints? I have been looking at the extra fine but didn't order yet. I know the fine would not work for my style of painting in most cases. WB has some gritty pigments that I didn't think I would like, but I found that once they dried it left beautiful textures and patterns of lights and multi values as in stonework areas. Thanks for sharing your experiences with this brand, not many people appear to have tried Charvin on WC.

Dcam
01-03-2019, 08:52 AM
Hi Angel and Annie:
Annie: The Celadon as stated can be found in Charvin Paints.
Angel: You might have something there, perhaps Pat used a student line of Charvin?

melissacarmon
01-03-2019, 10:38 AM
Is it PR112 we're talking about? I know that's what they use at M Graham, and I've used this pigment on occasion. The color is extraordinary, but I imagine it's the lightfastness that drove you away? Then there is PR170, another naphthol. I have never used this pigment myself. "They" say the naphthol lighfastness issue is more pronounced with watercolor than oil, but what do I know!

Hi, Jack!

That is an interesting question. I think it is PR 188. I think PR 112 is Napthol A S-D. I would love to hear others weigh in on this. :)

I do like M Grahamís PR112, but yes, I believe there are lightfastness concerns with Napthols. I have heard some peoplesí tests of PR112 and PR170 come out strong, but I am leaning toward erring on the side of caution.

The OH Brilliant pink used to be mixed formes with Napthol a s, which is a red with a yellow leaning. Back when I used it, I didnít know that there were any lightfastness concerns. It was reformulated with PR122 I think, and the mixing properties are totally different. The yellowish bent to Napthol a s was quite nice in high value peachy pinks.

AnnieA
01-03-2019, 10:45 AM
That is an interesting question. I think it is PR 188. I think PR 112 is Napthol A S-D. I would love to hear others weigh in on this. :)

I do like M Grahamís PR112, but yes, I believe there are lightfastness concerns with Napthols. I have heard some peoplesí tests of PR112 and PR170 come out strong, but I am leaning toward erring on the side of caution. ...
Hi Melissa and jackbreakfast!

I tend to rely on the lightfastness info in the Color of Art Database, which offers this for PR112 (http://www.artiscreation.com/red.html#PR112):
II (ASTM II in oil & acry. disp.)

III* (ASMT watercolors)*

BWS
7-8; 6-7; 5
(Guerra)

BWS
7-8; 6
(Lansco)
ASTM II is "very good" so apparently there's not as much concern about PR112 in oils. That's great because I love the M.Graham version.

Derek, thanks for the info on the celadon. It's more than $40 for a single tube on Amazon - too much for me right now - but oh, how beautiful: https://www.amazon.com/Charvin-EXTRA-FINE-Oil-Paint/dp/B004XMDE2W

Dcam
01-03-2019, 11:01 AM
Annie....Half that price at Jerry's
https://www.jerrysartarama.com/charvin-extra-fine-oil-paints?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8_rZ6f3R3wIVlVcNCh0zWgN4EAQYAyABEgJl2_D_BwE

jackbreakfast
01-03-2019, 11:46 AM
Pat...did you buy the "fine" or "extra fine" Charvin oil paints? I have been looking at the extra fine but didn't order yet. I know the fine would not work for my style of painting in most cases. WB has some gritty pigments that I didn't think I would like, but I found that once they dried it left beautiful textures and patterns of lights and multi values as in stonework areas. Thanks for sharing your experiences with this brand, not many people appear to have tried Charvin on WC.

I am a great fan of several of WB's gritty bruisers: French Ardoise Grey, Davy's Grey Deep, Graphite Grey. Pardon me if I'm spelling it "grey" instead of "gray", here in Canada I am quite confused about British vs American vs Canadian spelling but I try to not let it trouble me, etc! Anyhow, these greys are delightful, gritty and weird and textural and when you scrape them you can see all manner of delightful patterns! I also love WB's Italian Lemon Ochre - my favorite yellow ochre by far - golden and warm!

jackbreakfast
01-03-2019, 11:48 AM
Hi Angel and Annie:
Annie: The Celadon as stated can be found in Charvin Paints.
Angel: You might have something there, perhaps Pat used a student line of Charvin?

Just in case this is a consideration:
The Charvin Celadons are mixes as opposed to the Natural Pigments' single-pigment PG23. I'm not a single-pigment snob, don't worry!

Seaside Artist
01-03-2019, 12:49 PM
Hi Angel and Annie:
Annie: The Celadon as stated can be found in Charvin Paints.
Angel: You might have something there, perhaps Pat used a student line of Charvin?



Hello Derek...I decided to bite the bullet and try the Celadon for myself. I put my order in for 3 of the 4 Charvin Celadon shades. Hopefully the extra fine will be just that. I have drooled over this color since the first time you mentioned it here on WC. I will do color samples as soon as I get them this week and a review. Thanks for bringing back the reminder of this color Derek.

AnnieA
01-03-2019, 01:07 PM
Pat...did you buy the "fine" or "extra fine" Charvin oil paints? I have been looking at the extra fine but didn't order yet. I know the fine would not work for my style of painting in most cases. WB has some gritty pigments that I didn't think I would like, but I found that once they dried it left beautiful textures and patterns of lights and multi values as in stonework areas. Thanks for sharing your experiences with this brand, not many people appear to have tried Charvin on WC.
You were absolutely correct. From the Chavin site:
Charvin super-fine oils represent an excellent compromise between a quality oil and a good price-quality ratio.

It should be noted that the difference between the Charvin ranges of fine and extra-fine oils is the grinding time � extra-fine oil is ground for twice as long as fine oil, while the process is adapted to suit each pigment.
So the extra-fine are artist grade and the super-fine a lower (student?) grade.

Derek, are those the 20ml tubes and which grade are they?

Dcam
01-03-2019, 02:15 PM
60 Annie.

AnnieA
01-03-2019, 07:22 PM
60 Annie.
Oh I see - they're on sale at Jerry's. There's also a 20ml for $13.43, which would be perfect for trying them out. https://www.jerrysartarama.com/special-offers/charvin-extra-fine-oil-paints

Alessandra Kelley
01-03-2019, 08:14 PM
Ultramarine Violet, PV15.

Fairly low tinting strength, but quite beautiful.

Seaside Artist
01-04-2019, 03:43 AM
Oh I see - they're on sale at Jerry's. There's also a 20ml for $13.43, which would be perfect for trying them out. https://www.jerrysartarama.com/special-offers/charvin-extra-fine-oil-paints


Yes Annie, I agree the sale price for the extra fine appears to be very good and I also agree the 20ml is a good place to start to try some of their paints. Some of those 60ml sale prices are also excellent. Jerry's has had a number of sales on Charvin during the year. Let's hope we will be happy with this brand and the color chart is a close match.



(To the OP): I do see on the color chart that these are blends. Given the variety of pigment colors within the same pigment number and are available to different manufacturers I am happy to find unique blends such as this beautiful Celadon. Time is critical for me and when I can find a quality paint blend or single pigment that gives me more time to paint I am a happy painter. Yes, WB's gritty Italian pigments have a number of beautiful colors and their "extra fine" are just gorgeous too.


Happy painting to everyone!

Dcam
01-04-2019, 09:16 AM
Allesandra: Yes, I agree on the Ultramarine Violet.

melissacarmon
01-04-2019, 03:14 PM
Here is another upvote for Ultramarine Violet (PV15). I use it in mixes to neutralize yellows and create wonderful greys. I also love to use it to create more lavender-leaning ultramarine tints. Such a fantastic pigment!

ppeace
01-07-2019, 03:01 PM
Hi. I haven't been here in a while. Thanks for the inspiration. Here are some color compliments I want to work with this year. I guess these are underrated color mixtures.

Old Holland (OH) Blue Violet and any yellow. (I can mix the blue violet myself, but I like the resulting palette using two tubes of paint. This gets a huge range of pleasing greys for landscapes.)

OH Scheveningen Red Scarlet and any Blue (green shade). (When you mix these two, you get the whole range of browns on the warm side for figures)

OH Scheveningen Green Deep and Alizarin Crimson. (I love the deep shades with these two.)

Pinguino
01-07-2019, 03:20 PM
Interesting that so many folks like Ultramarine Violet. I tried some about a year ago, and found that it didn't do what I wanted it to do. Tinting strength was too low, and the way it played with other colors was "not what I had hoped." But then, this obviously depends one one's technique and other colors!

Incidentally, Manganese Violet is used for some consmetics such as eye shadow. No wonder it looks good with portraits. It's art imitating life imitating art. :wink2: