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MagicMike
12-29-2018, 01:15 AM
Iím only sharing this because I believe it is a safe and useful thing to do for oil painters who are DIY oriented and want to save some money. I believe if done correctly this is totally safe and proven effective. I have found a way to recycle OMS and want to share my findings.

I have experimented and have found if heated up outside in a well ventilated area away from structures odorless mineral spirits can be recycled Iíll explain my method.

I use a crock pot and after I remove all the pigment out of my used OMS I can heat the OMS up for about 90 minutes then let cool overnight all the oil precipitates out of the OMS and it can be poured off and used indefinitely.

I have done this quite a few times and have been amazed at the clarity of the OMS and the amount of oil that is left behind.

Please follow at your own risk and always do it outdoors away form structures that can catch fire.

This does work I hope it helps save money for other oil painters. Stay oily my friends.


Your sincerest wetcanvaser,

Magic

asdo
12-29-2018, 02:51 AM
I've had the same tiny 8oz bottle of OMS for years now, so definitely not practical for me. Interesting experiment though.

budigart
12-29-2018, 09:16 AM
I've "recycled" my OMS for many years, but I don't go through all the heating and cooling stuff. I keep two quart-sized containers for my OMS I switch back and forth about every two weeks. I places a short (tuna) can upside down (bottom up) in the bottom of each container. When the paint residue builds up, I decant the OMS out of each container, clean out the sludge, and return the decanted OMS to my brush cleaning containers and top them off with fresh OMS. Been doing it for years.

kentiessen
12-29-2018, 10:04 AM
If your OMS containers are allowed to stand overnight, the completely clear solvent can simply be poured into a clean container, and the residue cleaned out. There is no need (and unnecessary risk) with heating it.

MagicMike
12-29-2018, 11:31 AM
If your OMS containers are allowed to stand overnight, the completely clear solvent can simply be poured into a clean container, and the residue cleaned out. There is no need (and unnecessary risk) with heating it.

Iíve let it stand for over a month and it was see through but it was yellow not clear. The yellow tint is the dissolved oil. After doing what I posted it was almost crystal clear and a layer of oil was left in my crock pot.

Just passing on my findings it is risky but done responsibly helpful to me at least.

stapeliad
12-29-2018, 11:37 AM
I would not recommend heating OMS as it is highly flammable.
There is absolutely no need to do this.

For your rinse jar, just let the pigment separate. You can use the yellow- tinted OMS, it is fine. I don't use mine for a medium though.

kentiessen
12-29-2018, 12:00 PM
I would think any yellow tint remaining is a minuscule amount- a simple and safe remedy would be to let it settle longer.

stapeliad
12-29-2018, 12:00 PM
Ken it is just oil in there, which I think is fine.

MagicMike
12-29-2018, 12:42 PM
It is not a minuscule amount, the bottom of the pot consistently has a layer of oil. The OMS will get saturated with oil and will not have the ability to remove the oil from your brushes as effectively as cleaned OMS.

Iím just sharing what Iíve discovered, if you donít want to try it donít. But I can assure anyone it works, and the OMS is more effective after removing the oil. Is it necessary, absolutely not isit risky, yes. But it works.

Have fun and stay curious.

contumacious
12-29-2018, 01:27 PM
MagicMike is correct - and thanks for sharing this great idea!

Over time the OMS will become quite saturated with transparent "stuff" that will not ever settle out no matter how long you let it sit. A way to test if this has happened is to put a puddle on a piece of glass and let it dry. If there is NOTHING left on the glass when it has fully dried then your OMS is clean and uncontaminated. If it leaves a sticky residue, then its time to replace it - or to try MagicMike's technique which I definitely plan to test out myself since I go through several gallons of OMS each year in my brush stations and don't like throwing it out for several reasons.

I have found that using a 2nd brush wash container that is filled only with fresh, not settled out OMS and replacing it frequently, will allow you to use recycled OMS in station 1. The fresh OMS in station 2 will prevent the sticky brush syndrome that old OMS can cause.

contumacious
12-29-2018, 01:58 PM
I use a crock pot and after I remove all the pigment out of my used OMS I can heat the OMS up for about 90 minutes then let cool overnight all the oil precipitates out of the OMS and it can be poured off and used indefinitely.

What heat setting did you use on the crock pot? Did you measure the temperature of the OMS at the end of the 90 minute time frame?




I would not recommend heating OMS as it is highly flammable.

Actually some types of OMS are not highly flammable. It can be found rated as Class 1 through Class 3. https://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-mineral-spirits.htm

However, as described in that link above, it DOES become more flammable - Class 3 levels, as you approach the flash point / boiling point so you would need to keep it under that temperature to reduce the risk of setting the fumes on fire.

Gamsol and KleanStrip OMS - the ones I tested - are in fact fairly low in the flammability department and are difficult to ignite sitting in an open container. I just tested it. I could not get a pot full of OMS at room temperature to light with a match, even by dropping a lit match into it. It simply put the match out. The only way I could get it to give off a flame by itself was to put some in a spoon and hold a torch near the surface for several seconds before it will produce a flame. The OMS was bubbling (flash point) which was why the fumes were strong enough to ignite. Without heating it up, as soon as the torch was removed, the flame went out. If I heated it to the flash point, the flames kept going.

I will test to see if there is a significant increase in flammability later when near but under the flash point temperature, when I try MagicMike's "distilling process" myself in a crock pot. As you heat the OMS towards its flash point it will give off more fumes so you don't want to bring it to a boil if you can help it.


There is absolutely no need to do this.

I respectfully disagree. I can think of at least three excellent reasons to try this technique. Less pollution, reduced "sticky brush" syndrome and a significant cost savings.

For your rinse jar, just let the pigment separate. You can use the yellow- tinted OMS, it is fine. I don't use mine for a medium though.
Used OMS is fine up to a point, but if you are using it to clean your brushes and leaving the OMS in the bristles, overly contaminated OMS will harden in your brushes.

MagicMike
12-29-2018, 03:49 PM
Used OMS is fine up to a point, but if you are using it to clean your brushes and leaving the OMS in the bristles, overly contaminated OMS will harden in your brushes.


I did not take the temperature and I set it on high. Another thing I forgot to mention is I put a piece of a paper towel in the vent hole for the crock pot to reduce the amount of vapor release. Iíve done this quite a few times and am amazed at how much oil I get to drop out of the OMS. Thanks for your post, I went back and forth on posting but after the results Iíve gotten I had to share this method for anyone wanting to get the most out of their supplies.

Ron Francis
12-29-2018, 05:22 PM
This very interesting to me Mike.
I find it odd that the oil separates with heat, and stays separated, and I wonder if it works with mineral spirits.
Does it float on top or go to the bottom?

To those of you that are saying you can recycle solvent indefinitely and removing the oil isn't necessary...
Adding to what contumacious said, the oil will end up in the ferrules of your brushes unless you wash with soap and water thoroughly after rinsing in the solvent.
Even so, oil doesn't usually get up into the ferrule if using undiluted paint and you only get it on the bottom 3rd of the bristles.
But oily solvent will let the oil travel much more easily, and completely washing it out of the ferrule I think would be next to impossible. I imagine it would inevitably build up there over time.

stapeliad
12-29-2018, 05:44 PM
I recycle my OMS but I also find it often needs refilling with fresh solvent as well. A lot of my solvent ends up in my oily rag, I guess.

After OMS rinse my brushes go in turpenoid natural to get everything out, then I have separate oms to get that out before painting again. This system has worked well for me for years, my brushes stay in great shape and it is easy to maintain.

contumacious
12-29-2018, 06:17 PM
I did not take the temperature and I set it on high. Another thing I forgot to mention is I put a piece of a paper towel in the vent hole for the crock pot to reduce the amount of vapor release. Iíve done this quite a few times and am amazed at how much oil I get to drop out of the OMS. Thanks for your post, I went back and forth on posting but after the results Iíve gotten I had to share this method for anyone wanting to get the most out of their supplies.

Thanks for the additional information. This reminds me somewhat of how they refine crude oil. The "lighter" (Higher Vapor Pressure?) materials move to the top and the heavier ones settle to the bottom.

Oil Refinery Distillation Column Diagram
(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Daniela_Chrenko/publication/278633764/figure/fig5/AS:[email protected]/Crude-Oil-Refining-wwwhowstuffworkscom.png)

MagicMike
12-29-2018, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the additional information. This reminds me somewhat of how they refine crude oil. The "lighter" (Higher Vapor Pressure?) materials move to the top and the heavier ones settle to the bottom.

Oil Refinery Distillation Column Diagram
(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Daniela_Chrenko/publication/278633764/figure/fig5/AS:[email protected]/Crude-Oil-Refining-wwwhowstuffworkscom.png)

Lol! I work on an offshore oil production platform.

MagicMike
12-29-2018, 08:33 PM
This very interesting to me Mike.
I find it odd that the oil separates with heat, and stays separated, and I wonder if it works with mineral spirits.
Does it float on top or go to the bottom?

To those of you that are saying you can recycle solvent indefinitely and removing the oil isn't necessary...
Adding to what contumacious said, the oil will end up in the ferrules of your brushes unless you wash with soap and water thoroughly after rinsing in the solvent.
Even so, oil doesn't usually get up into the ferrule if using undiluted paint and you only get it on the bottom 3rd of the bristles.
But oily solvent will let the oil travel much more easily, and completely washing it out of the ferrule I think would be next to impossible. I imagine it would inevitably build up there over time.

The type of solvent Iím using is the speedball Mona Lisa OMS. Another little tip is to buy it at Michaelís and use their ever present 50% off on any regular priced item and you can get a gallon for $15.

After it cools I pour off the OMS and the oil is stuck to the bottom, itís very thick like stand oil I have to wipe it out because itís stuck there.

Hope this helps.

sidbledsoe
12-29-2018, 09:22 PM
I would guess that the heating is partially polymerizing the oil and it separates and precipitates.

Pinguino
12-30-2018, 01:11 PM
Before you heat OMS or any solvent, first puchase a Lotto ticket, and wait for the results.

If you win the Lotto, then you will have enough money to puchase fresh solvent, and will not need to re-use any.

If you lose the Lotto, it is because you are unlucky. In this case, do not heat any solvent!

sidbledsoe
12-30-2018, 03:54 PM
If one really wants to do this, I think you can also dump some kitty litter or hamster bedding into your container, mix, settle, and then decant or pour through cheesecloth.

WFMartin
12-30-2018, 06:13 PM
Iím only sharing this because I believe it is a safe and useful thing to do for oil painters who are DIY oriented and want to save some money. I believe if done correctly this is totally safe and proven effective. I have found a way to recycle OMS and want to share my findings.

I have experimented and have found if heated up outside in a well ventilated area away from structures odorless mineral spirits can be recycled Iíll explain my method.

I use a crock pot and after I remove all the pigment out of my used OMS I can heat the OMS up for about 90 minutes then let cool overnight all the oil precipitates out of the OMS and it can be poured off and used indefinitely.

Actually, I'm quite intrigued with your method, and I'm going to ask a few questions just for further clarification.

I have done this quite a few times and have been amazed at the clarity of the OMS and the amount of oil that is left behind.

Is it true that the separated oil falls to the bottom? I would think it would be the other way 'round--where the oil would rise to the top. But I believe you. Also, please realize that there are likely to be a couple of other, clear, liquid impurities in the OMS than just oil. Such other impurities are resins, both those for paints, and as varnishes. Therefore, it may include both synthetic and natural resins. Alkyd materials would be another impurity, which would settle out as well hopefully.

Please follow at your own risk and always do it outdoors away form structures that can catch fire.

I can just imagine that if I heated my used, OMS outside, for 90 minutes, it would most certainly all evaporate before this interesting, separating phenomenon occurs. I am obviously wrong, since your are definitely doing it.

Also, to what temperature must the composite liquid be heated in order for this reaction to occur? I do not have a crock pot available for such endeavors, so I would need to know the approximate temperature that is appropriate.

This does work I hope it helps save money for other oil painters. Stay oily my friends.


Your sincerest wetcanvaser,

Magic

Yeah, it actually sounds quite interesting.:thumbsup: Thanks for the idea. I may employ this method, but I will certainly consider it for future experimentation.

Ron Francis
12-30-2018, 07:17 PM
I can add some expert information to this now, from George Ohanlon, and will paraphrase some of it below.

I will assume that everyone is aware of the danger so won't go into his response to that unless someone requests it, but he says something like this requires proper laboratory training and personal protection.

OMS is a true solvent for vegetable oils, so the mixture is a solution, not a suspension, therefore the oil will not precipitate.
(This is just to affirm that decanting and re-using OMS will get more and more oily the more you use it.)

There are other additives in oil paint apart from pigment that are not solutes of mineral spirits which may come into play here.
And the "cooking" process may create by-products that may be suspended and separate into layers.
This is what George thinks is happening rather than the oil separation.

Regarding polymerization ...
Assuming the high setting is around 300 ļF (149 ļC), there would be minimal thermal polymerization of drying oil. This occurs at much higher temperatures.
Usually thermally polymerized oil does not precipitate from bodied oil, especially after heating and cooling.

Having the yield analysed is probably the only way of knowing for sure if the oil was removed.

All very interesting

Ron Francis
12-30-2018, 07:26 PM
Bill, if you intend trying this, please don't use any naked flame.
The fumes are heavier than air, so heating with flame is a recipe for disaster.

MagicMike
12-30-2018, 07:32 PM
Actually, I'm quite intrigued with your method, and I'm going to ask a few questions just for further clarification.



Is it true that the separated oil falls to the bottom? I would think it would be the other way 'round--where the oil would rise to the top. But I believe you. Also, please realize that there are likely to be a couple of other, clear, liquid impurities in the OMS than just oil. Such other impurities are resins, both those for paints, and as varnishes. Therefore, it may include both synthetic and natural resins. Alkyd materials would be another impurity, which would settle out as well hopefully.

Yes sir whatever it is it is on the bottom of the crock pot. I have only used galkyd, stand oil, neomeglip, and safflower oil as my mediums.



I can just imagine that if I heated my used, OMS outside, for 90 minutes, it would most certainly all evaporate before this interesting, separating phenomenon occurs. I am obviously wrong, since your are definitely doing it.

It does vaporize I keep the lid on with a filter (paper towel) in the vent hole to cut down on loss.

Also, to what temperature must the composite liquid be heated in order for this reaction to occur? I do not have a crock pot available for such endeavors, so I would need to know the approximate temperature that is appropriate.

I havenít taken the actual temp I just used the high setting and let it heat for 90 mins at a minimum, actually longer I should of kept up with time and temp.


Yeah, it actually sounds quite interesting.:thumbsup: Thanks for the idea. I may employ this method, but I will certainly consider it for future experimentation.

I hope it helps I know it has clarified my OMS tremendous. Not sure what itís taking out I just know itís almost clear. Thank you so much for your interest and positive interaction with my post. It means a lot to me.

Let me know if I can help anymore.

MagicMike
12-30-2018, 07:34 PM
I can add some expert information to this now, from George Ohanlon, and will paraphrase some of it below.

I will assume that everyone is aware of the danger so won't go into his response to that unless someone requests it, but he says something like this requires proper laboratory training and personal protection.

OMS is a true solvent for vegetable oils, so the mixture is a solution, not a suspension, therefore the oil will not precipitate.
(This is just to affirm that decanting and re-using OMS will get more and more oily the more you use it.)

There are other additives in oil paint apart from pigment that are not solutes of mineral spirits which may come into play here.
And the "cooking" process may create by-products that may be suspended and separate into layers.
This is what George thinks is happening rather than the oil separation.

Regarding polymerization ...
Assuming the high setting is around 300 ļF (149 ļC), there would be minimal thermal polymerization of drying oil. This occurs at much higher temperatures.
Usually thermally polymerized oil does not precipitate from bodied oil, especially after heating and cooling.

Having the yield analysed is probably the only way of knowing for sure if the oil was removed.

All very interesting

Iím not sure what is actually being removed. It looks and feels exactly like stand oil. I use galkyd, neomeglip, stand oil, and safflower oil as mediums. Thank you so much for your input Iím learning a ton!

sidbledsoe
12-30-2018, 09:15 PM
Usually thermally polymerized oil does not precipitate from bodied oil, especially after heating and cooling.
Why is George saying this?
The material is not precipitating from bodied oil at all,
it is precipitating from OMS solvent,
In fact, from the description here:
It looks and feels exactly like stand oil.
the material sounds more like bodied oil itself rather than fully polymerized oil, that is why I mentioned that it may be only partially polymerized.
If you pour some stand oil into OMS, it will sink right to the bottom of the container, upon shaking/stirring it will then dissolve.
Does the material redissolve upon agitation MagicM?
If so then it may be like a bodied oil, if not then it is probably more polymerized than stand oil.

contumacious
12-30-2018, 11:03 PM
Your line of work definitely explains why you tried this in the first place. Very cool.

I am excited about the possibility of extending the life of the rather expensive Gamsol that I use in the studio, though I will try it on the cheap stuff too.

As for temps, most crock pots on their "High" setting are a above the boiling point of water, some reach 340F+, so on High the flash point is surely being exceeded thus the need for the lid with the vent hole blocked to keep it in the pot. It is like you are distilling it without an external condenser, with the crock pot acting as the condenser?

The published flash points and a bit more for a few brands of OMS

Gamsol OMS
Flash Point 144F.
Boiling Point 372įF - 408įF
Auto-Ignition Point 635F
Flammable Limits (Approximate volume % in air): LEL: 0.7 UEL: 5.3

Mona Lisa OMS
Flash Point 124F
Boiling Point 340 - 399 įF
Auto-ignition Point 260F
Explosive Limits LEL 0.6 % UEL 7.0 %

Klean Strip OMS I use this in my ventilated brush cleaning station for Plein Air because it is so cheap.
Flash point >170F
Boiling Point - 318.00 F - 354.00 F
Auto-ignition Point 448F
Explosive Limits: LEL: 0.6 % UEL: 7.0 %

As soon as I get a dedicated Crock Pot I am going to try heating some new OMS and see if anything settles out of it. I will be surprised if it does. Most likely everything that is settling out of there was introduced by cleaning brushes in it.

Ron Francis
12-31-2018, 04:42 AM
Why is George saying this?
The material is not precipitating from bodied oil at all,
it is precipitating from OMS solvent,
In fact, from the description here:

the material sounds more like bodied oil itself rather than fully polymerized oil, that is why I mentioned that it may be only partially polymerized.
If you pour some stand oil into OMS, it will sink right to the bottom of the container, upon shaking/stirring it will then dissolve.
Does the material redissolve upon agitation MagicM?
If so then it may be like a bodied oil, if not then it is probably more polymerized than stand oil.
You would have to ask him why he said it, but if it were only the polymerized oil that was precipitating, as I thought you were suggesting in your first post, I suppose that it would have to become detached to the rest of the oil.
But were you saying that some polymerized oil was enough to make all the oil precipitate?
Difficult to imagine if it were only minimal polymerization at that temperature.
At any rate, George sounds pretty certain that it isn't the oil that is precipitating, and the cocktail of medium ingredients, (galkyd, neomeglip, stand oil, and safflower oil), make it less straightforward.

But let's suppose that it is oil on the bottom and that polymerization doesn't play a significant role.
If straight linseed doesn't readily dissolve in OMS,( ie, falls to the bottom when first introduced to OMS and needs to be agitated to dissolve), then a possible scenario is this ...
The heat is turning the OMS to fumes which condenses on the inside top of the crock pot, then dribbles back down into the solution.
After 90 minutes, all of the solvent may have gone through this distillation.
As the oil isn't evaporating, and if the process is gentle enough to not agitate the liquid, I can imagine how the oil could be left at the bottom.
I would also interested to know if the 'oil' will redissolve into the OMS.

I don't know if oil will oxidize while in an OMS solution, but it will have certainly oxidized to some degree on the palette, which may explain it's viscosity somewhat, especially considering it contains alkyds.

But of course, this is pure speculation.
A test, putting puddles of oily and refined OMS on glass to see what residue may remain after evaporation, could be indicative.

MrsSellers
12-31-2018, 11:52 AM
This is a fascinating idea. I have found that well used OMS makes me as sick as odiferous MS. It would be very interesting to find out whether the sickening agents can be refined back out of the OMS. I might take a trip to the thrift store to pick up a crock pot.

sidbledsoe
12-31-2018, 12:05 PM
I agree Ron, precipitation might be the wrong term for this. From what scant information available here, I would now guess that it may be a matter of just simply separation of materials.
The heating over time may or may not just be slightly thickening the oil, giving it more body, maybe IDK, and then settling to the bottom regardess.
The key words I have used are "guess", "may", and "might".
I have done separations such as this with a laboratory instrument known as a rotary evaporator. But as the name indicates, it agitates and rotates the mixture while the solvent is evaporated away from above with a cooling condenser coil. The crock is not agitating, OMS solvent is definitely evaporating, if it was sealed up then Magic would be talking about the explosion. The only reason he isn't seeing a nice fire is probably due to the lack of an ignition source near the vapors.
This is a fascinating idea I think it is an ill advised idea and a somewhat dangerous procedure that he is doing for so little gain, just put some new OMS in your jar, but if you somehow are hell bent on recycling OMS, then just douse it with kitty litter to absorb the oil and then drain it off. I won't even mention another easy method because it is also dangerous.

Ron Francis
12-31-2018, 02:35 PM
Here is an idea that may work. Although it would be very slow, (if it worked at all), it would be safe.

Take two (glass?) containers, one larger than the other so one fits inside the other.
The outer vessel contains the oily OMS.
Cover the top of the larger container with something like cling wrap, and place a weight in the centre so it forms a shallow inverted cone, and place in a sunny window.
Maybe the solvent will evaporate, condense on the cling film, dribble to the centre of the film where it forms drops which fall into the clean container.

I've seen a technique similar to this for collecting drinking water in a desert except the plastic is over a shallow hole in the ground. There is enough moisture in the ground to yield a glass of water after a day.

sidbledsoe
12-31-2018, 10:27 PM
Yeah I think it may just be doing something like that too.

When I was about 12 yrs old, a friend and I actually discovered a genuine moonshine still in the basement of an abandoned house in my hometown.
If I deparately wanted to recycle a crapload of OMS I would set up a still myself, but the method I use for painting/cleanup uses so little OMS that it isn't worth it for me. I keep my brushes charged with oil so the issue with drying in the brush doesn't happen. If one is using OMS by the gallons then I must wonder how.

Richard P
01-01-2019, 06:56 AM
Heating the OMS sounds really dangerous to me..

I agree with Sid that you normally need so little in a painting. If you are using so much for cleanup I would recommend using soap and water to get as much of the paint out as possible first.

contumacious
01-01-2019, 10:09 AM
A few interesting videos on YouTube about distilling white gas from automobile gas. Building a still would be a fun project until OSHA or the BATFE (OMS Special Ops) stepped in. :eek: I can see the headlines now - Hillbilly Artist Rumrunners caught selling moonshine OMS!

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=distilling+white+gas

sidbledsoe
01-01-2019, 02:26 PM
I might take a trip to the thrift store to pick up a crock pot. The safety of doing this can vary with a number of conditions. Chances may be small but I would not want to be the one here that encouraged someone here to try this process
I say don't waste your time at all. I haven't encountered any need whatsoever to do this spent solvent roasting stuff in my 50 plus years of painting which includes a lot of non art related varnishing and painting too, house, woodworking, instrument building, etc etc.

crocks probably have a thermostat coupled to an on/off switch, therein lies a source of ignition that can possibly be faulty or extra sparky. Usually it would be sealed up but these things can get old and worn out and then roast on you without warning.

Just yesterday I was charging my cell phone with an adaptor that plugs into the cig lighter in my car. It stopped working and I pulled the adaptor out, it was hot as could be and smelled like an electrical fire. It had decided on itself to just up and roast on me :confused:

I do find it hard to believe that this very crude heating method is an effective or efficient way to get really clear stuff.

contumacious
01-01-2019, 03:30 PM
I would say if you aren't accustomed to working with flammable liquids and gasses you should avoid trying this yourself. I would not be nervous about doing this outside in an open area, but I would suggest to most of the people I know that they should not play with it as well as probably 98% of the people on WC.

Personally I would only do this outside in a flat / wide open area where a pool of the fumes can't collect such as in a depression, a walled in yet open to the sky spot etc. To reduce the chance of an ignition, a non sparking thermostat controlled relay would be better than than the open contact thermostat in a crock pot which creates a spark every time it opens or closes as already mentioned above. You can get something like that off ebay for a few dollars if you want to build a non sparking "still", bypassing the switch on the crock pot and using the electronic relay and thermostat to run the heat.

I tested the flammability of the fumes today in an open metal can on a hotplate. Once I reached the vapor point temperature, they were very easy to ignite. At 70F, no amount of coaxing from a match or a propane torch would ignite the fumes unless you heated the surface of the liquid. At around 175F the vapors lit up from an inch or so away. As it got hotter the flames produced were larger and easier to ignite. At 190F once the flame was going it was very difficult to blow out, grew more intense and taller as the liquid got hotter, and had to be smothered to extinguish it.

MrsSellers
01-02-2019, 10:32 AM
I personally would have no problem trying this. Thanks to the OP for the suggestion.

contumacious
01-02-2019, 10:51 AM
If you have a pancake griddle or a stand alone hotplate, You can use a pot with a tight fitting lid to do this. You don't need a crock pot. In fact a variable thermostat rather than Off / Low / High settings can be beneficial. I am using a thrift store buy heavy aluminum pan with a glass lid. A thermometer is a good idea so you can see at what temperatures things start to happen. The lower the temp the better as far as gassing off goes.

In my testing yesterday, I put some really dirty OMS in the pot that had not had a chance to settle. All the solids went right to the bottom in a matter of minutes at 185F, so there is another nifty thing you can do if you are in a hurry for some relatively clear OMS and don't have time to wait for it to settle for a few days. I am going to try to determine at what temperature the oil and gunk settles out leaving a clear liquid so I won't be unnecessarily over heating it. Art will have to just wait a bit today, this stuff is too fun.

stapeliad
01-02-2019, 10:55 AM
FRIENDLY MODERATOR NOTE:

Let's please keep this thread friendly and agree to disagree in a civil fashion.

I would also like to point out that George O'Hanlon's response to this question on the Facebook thread was that he would never advise it in any circumstance. I mention this because his name is in this thread as an expert on matters and his words have been paraphrased here. This is not something he agrees with.

If you want to heat solvent and feel it is beneficial for some reason, and you think you can do it safely, proceed at your own risk.

It is, as mentioned by MagicMike, NOT necessary and requires some safety sense.

Please everyone, BE SAFE.

Jon
01-02-2019, 11:03 AM
Admin Note:
I second the words of the Moderator. Err on the side of caution and safety!

BE SAFE!

MagicMike
01-02-2019, 12:13 PM
I personally would have no problem trying this. Thanks to the OP for the suggestion.

Thank you for the kind words. After reading the more positive comments Iíve been very encouraged and thankful I did share my findings.

MagicMike
01-02-2019, 12:15 PM
FRIENDLY MODERATOR NOTE:

Let's please keep this thread friendly and agree to disagree in a civil fashion.

I would also like to point out that George O'Hanlon's response to this question on the Facebook thread was that he would never advise it in any circumstance. I mention this because his name is in this thread as an expert on matters and his words have been paraphrased here. This is not something he agrees with.

If you want to heat solvent and feel it is beneficial for some reason, and you think you can do it safely, proceed at your own risk.

It is, as mentioned by MagicMike, NOT necessary and requires some safety sense.

Please everyone, BE SAFE.

Thank you for this posting.

Richard P
01-02-2019, 01:27 PM
Wouldn't some kind of filtration system be safer and easier to do?

Ron Francis
01-03-2019, 01:25 AM
Wouldn't some kind of filtration system be safer and easier to do?
The trouble is, the oil is dissolved in the solvent. I can't think of anything that would filter out the oil. Distillation is the only thing I can think of.
In fact, distillation is how I believe it is done commercially, which requires expensive equipment and time.
Remember, it's not the pigment particles but the oil binder.
If filtering were a viable option, I don't think anyone would bother with distillation.
But it's not my field of expertise so I don't really know what I'm talking about. ;)

Richard P
01-03-2019, 05:04 AM
Oh, I was thinking of some kind of membrane that they use for water filtration.

MagicMike
01-04-2019, 12:00 PM
Oh, I was thinking of some kind of membrane that they use for water filtration.

That would be something great to research and experiment with. There are certain absorbent materials that only absorb certain liquids like oil from water but OMS is a petroleum product and will be difficult to filter out an oil from an oil based product. It is worth taking a look at though.

MagicMike
01-15-2019, 03:13 PM
I am about to be back on land from my time at work and have ordered some scientific instruments to help determine what is actually happening when the OMS is being heated and oil is falling out. Ill be posting pics within the next few weeks.

Stay Curious...

MrsSellers
01-15-2019, 03:52 PM
Great, can't wait for the results!

Ron Francis
01-15-2019, 05:13 PM
I am about to be back on land from my time at work and have ordered some scientific instruments to help determine what is actually happening when the OMS is being heated and oil is falling out. Ill be posting pics within the next few weeks.

Stay Curious...
Looking forward to seeing the results!

sidbledsoe
01-16-2019, 06:55 AM
Stay Curious...
think about the relative freezing points for OMS and linseed oil.
Household refrigerators don't reach the freezing point of oil, plus solvents should never be placed in them due to the explosion hazard. The defrost cycle pulls a negative pressure in the chamber, pulling of solvent vapor, and the on off switch provides an ignition source.
Rather, experiment with a eutectic mixture in a bucket, such as used to make ice cream. Salt melting ice reduces the temp below the freezing point of oil, but not near enough to the freezing point of OMS. Other eutectic mixtures could be used too.
I am very reluctant to share this info because I think it is a totally unnecessary endeavor. But I also think it can be a much safer and easier route than exploring the very foolish heating experiments.
It is infinitely easier, less troublesome, and sensible to just replenish very used OMS with some new OMS, and learn how to use very little of it in the first place.
I wipe out my brush very well with a rag. Then I dip the brush into some OMS and blot that out well, repeat a time or two, then dip in non drying oil and leave the brush sitting. Then when ready to use I dip the brush in OMS and wipe out, then charge the brush with some oil and proceed to paint again. It makes brush cleaning easy as can be, uses very little OMS, and preserves the brush.
Repeated vigorous pristine cleaning with OMS, or with oil, or with soap and water is nothing but a grand waste of time and effort to me, but that is just me.

sidbledsoe
01-16-2019, 07:59 AM
Stay Curious...
stay sensible,
So you see my OMS never even gets so fouled up or loaded with oil.
If you are using large quantities of OMS and that OMS is also getting
so fouled that you feel the need to recycle the stuff, then I recommend
learning how to not get it fouled and how not use so much of it in the first place.
It is cheaper, easier, and better for you and the environment, and makes for your time better spent doing something more productive like painting.

TomMather
01-16-2019, 09:12 AM
Personally, I would never even consider heating used OMS to clean or recycle. Itís not worth the potential fire damage, burns or other health issues.

However, what about just pouring used OMS through a coffee filter into another container? Wouldnít that remove most of the solids?

sidbledsoe
01-16-2019, 05:10 PM
Yes, you could also put in some activated charcoal or kitty litter, and some foul stuff will be absorbed, oil will remain though, but since you can clean brushes with just oil or with an oil and OMS mixture, I don't see a problem with having a lot of oil in your OMS, it has never once been any problem for me anyway.
When I used to retentively clean out my brushes, trying to get all the paint out, even with clean straight OMS, there would still be residual paint stuck up in the ferrule, and then when it dried, the brushes would gradually get stiffer.
Sign painters learned this a long time ago, don't try to get it all out, just get most out and let the brush soak in oil between sessions and the brushes stay supple, flexible, and usable like new.

sidbledsoe
01-16-2019, 05:19 PM
I have ordered some scientific instruments to help determine what is actually happening when the OMS is being heated and oil is falling out.
Magic, what are the instruments you have ordered?
I am still kinda suspecting that only some of the heavier or larger molecule oil component is partially polymerizing and that the rest of the oil in not completely being removed, otherwise distillation would not be required for separation.
I can get some oil to precipitate when just putting oil fouled OMS on ice, but not all of it, but a eutectic mixture should do it.

sidbledsoe
01-17-2019, 06:21 AM
MagicMike,
Can you please verify that anything you have done here is legitimate and not just a prank.
This thread is your one and only activity here on WC, it contains the total number of posts that you have made here. You are not answering questions that have been posted for some time now. Does this precipitated material redissolve in the OMS or not?
Has anyone else here done this and gotten similar results?

The claim that you are ordering scientific instruments to determine what you are getting, quite frankly sounds totally bogus to me.
I find it hard to believe that this process even works, I think that it would only serve to evaporate significant amounts of solvent while concentrating the oil that is dissolved.

Unless you can start interacting here by answering questions, and posting even one single photo of your alleged process, then this is beginning to look like a hoax or a joke played upon us. So if you can prove me mistaken then please do so now.

Raffless
01-17-2019, 11:33 AM
I had my suspicions. The original post says 'save some money'. Well OMS is cheaper than cheap anyway. Now if your recycling OMS as a scientific experiment fair enough. But not to save money as its more likely you will lose money on the heating/ventilation costs alone.

stapeliad
01-17-2019, 03:14 PM
Mod note: I'm following this bizarre thread closely, but am keeping it open as there is interest, and also to give MagicMike the chance to elaborate further.

Pinguino
01-17-2019, 05:06 PM
Mod note: I'm following this bizarre thread closely, but am keeping it open as there is interest, and also to give MagicMike the chance to elaborate further.

I believe you are on the right track. When someone without other record pops out of the blue with a suggestion like that... :eek:

Ron Francis
01-17-2019, 05:44 PM
It's only been two days since MagicMike posted here, and accusations are starting to fly.
I suggest giving him a little more time before forming a lynch mob.
Possibly he isn't able to access the internet at the moment, or making his way home after being on an oil rig is keeping him occupied.
At any rate, we should be addressing the idea posted here rather than attacking the person. That's WC policy isn't it?

This thread is your one and only activity here on WC, it contains the total number of posts that you have made here.
False.
He has posted at another thread apart from this one if you care to look. One other about making palettes on the day after he started this thread.

stapeliad
01-17-2019, 05:56 PM
Ok guys, let's just wait for MagicMike.

This thread is on... pause?... until MagicMike posts again.

stapeliad
01-18-2019, 10:31 AM
Closing the thread until MagicMike returns.

MagicMike, we do want to hear from you, please send me a PM when you want to post and I'll reopen the thread.

Thanks!

MagicMike
01-28-2019, 11:07 PM
Wow.... So I'm back, I work away from home for two weeks at a time and this past time home my wife and I went on an anniversary trip to DC so I have not had the time to reply.

I am not going to reply to any of the more negative comments that questioned my legitimacy and intentions. I wanted to experiment with used OMS to see if there was a way to clean it in order to prolong its usefulness. I tried some filtration and experienced moderate success. Even with the filtration I could not get it back clear, it always had a yellow tinge. So I wanted to try distillation, I had access to an old crock pot and set up tubing through cold water to condense the steam when it evaporated. I was unable to get the temperature high enough to vaporize the OMS in a way that allowed distillation. I turned off the crock pot and decided to rethink my process, so when I poured the now cooled OMS back into my holding jars it was almost crystal clear and there was a layer of oil in the bottom of the pot.

After a few more times repeating the heating process and tweaking it slightly I experienced the same result of clear OMS with a layer of oil left behind. I debated whether or not to post what I found, well obviously I decided to share.

I have stated time and time again this is not necessary and I have no idea what is happening on a molecular level. All I know is I put golden yellow OMS in the pot apply heat and get clear OMS out with a layer of an oily type substance left behind. I do not think you have to have a masters in chemistry to draw the conclusion that oil is being removed. To what extent and the effectiveness of the heating I can not say, nor am I attempting to.

You can say its dangerous, I've said it is not the safest thing to do, I am not dismissing any safety concerns I assure you of that. Think about it, if we didn't try different things and experiment with different methods and techniques we would still be rubbing colored rocks on our palms and making hand prints in a cave.


I will post my recent tests with pictures. I am sharing for informational purposes and have no interest in debating the details of what is happening on an elemental level. If you think the information is not useful, dangerous, or not worth the time or effort, DO NOT TRY IT, and please do not waste your time or others time posting how dangerous or unnecessary the process is, that has already been stated. Please be safe, use common sense and keep an open mind. Do with the information what you like just do not be so rude and dismissive.

Stay Curious.....
Magic

P. S.
Thank you to all who have reached out to me with kind words and given me encouragement, and for warning me of the ensuing backlash.

Ron Francis
01-29-2019, 12:16 AM
Glad to see you back Magic.

MagicMike
01-29-2019, 12:48 AM
I acquired a thermometer and scale to check the temperature the OMS reaches and to weigh the oily substance left behind.

I attached pictures to show what the OMS looks like before and after heating and removing the oil also what the oily substance looks like.

The temperature reached was 226įF I let it heat for 90 minutes. After letting it set and cool for 3 hours I heated to 226įF for 90 minutes again. The heat was turned off to cool overnight. The next day (approx.12 hrs later) the temperature was 57įF when I poured off the OMS. As with the other tests there was a layer of an oily substance in the bottom. I removed it from the pot and weighed it. The weight of the oil was about 6 grams. The OMS was clear. The OMS has a slightly different smell, not off putting or overpowering just a little different.

That is all the measurements I took, I was not expecting the scrutiny this post received and didnít gather every data point that has been questioned.

For my satisfaction this is all the research I need to be able to justify continuing this method of cleaning used OMS. The end result is much clearer and seems to work better than just OMS that has only had the pigment removed. I have no scientific proof to back that up, I just feel it does work more effectively. Do with the information what you will. If anyone experiments further please share your findings if you are so inclined.

Be safe, stay curious
863417
863418
863419
863420

MagicMike
01-29-2019, 01:04 AM
Glad to see you back Magic.

Thanks Ron! Work and vacation set me back a while.

I sincerely appreciate you taking up for me during my absence.

Ron Francis
01-29-2019, 05:13 AM
No problem Mike. You may be doing crazy stupid stuff, but I thought you were genuine.

Well it looks like a mystery to me.
Is the residue always brown? Always the same colour?
The 'distilled' OMS certainly looks clear.

If there was a safe way of doing it with ordinary mineral spirits, I would certainly consider it, because I go through quite a lot of it over time, and it's very difficult to dispose of it where I live.

contumacious
01-29-2019, 09:03 AM
Thanks for posting an update with details and photos and thanks again for sharing the process with us. I will definitely be doing this with my used OMS in the future, based on my own testing.

sidbledsoe
01-29-2019, 09:32 AM
It is obvious that people are going to be doing this heating process, they have expressed this from the beginning and are they are now going to thrift stores to obtain crockpots, etc. to do so.
Magic Mike, when anyone does not stop in the Welcome Center here as they are asked to do first, and then starts with a thread such as this one, then I can tell you that I will check and verify this.
I have provided some guidance and help in beginning to determine what is happening,. I have training, education, work experience, and knowledge of this field of oil and solvent separation.
I have also suggested a safer and a far more efficient alternative to this process, which is the process of winteriztation of solvent and oil mixtures.

stapeliad
01-29-2019, 10:00 AM
My "dirty" reused solvent is never cloudy like yours... it is a bit yellow, but is otherwise transparent.

I think to really verify this experiment you'd have to have the clear sample analysed. There could still be alkyd resin in it and it still might be clear, the same way Gamvar is clear. And dammar varnish.

Linseed oil does go gummy when heated, even at a low temp (I put some in a tea light oil fragrance diffuser once years ago and it gummed up very quickly) but resins or other paint additives are likely still in there.

MrsSellers
01-29-2019, 10:29 AM
My "dirty" reused solvent is never cloudy like yours... it is a bit yellow, but is otherwise transparent.

My guess is it that had undergone some agitation before the picture was taken.

stapeliad
01-29-2019, 10:53 AM
My guess is it that had undergone some agitation before the picture was taken.

If that is the case then not all of the pigment solids had settled out yet. Or there is wax in there, could be a paint additive. I pour mine from the jar where it settles into my rinse jar... that's definitely agitation, and mine is not cloudy. Just light yellow.

MagicMike
01-29-2019, 11:56 AM
My guess is it that had undergone some agitation before the picture was taken.

Yeah this was rushed due to time constraints and I had not let all the pigment fall out of the last jar I added to the crockpot. It is normally not cloudy just golden yellow. But either way it comes out clear the heat either speeds up the sentiment falling out or it has no effect on the outcome. I think someone posted that heating did speed up the dropping out of the pigment.

Like I stated earlier Iím totally satisfied with the outcome and feel capable and safe doing this process. I donít care to have anything analyzed and Iím sure it probably isnít back to pure OMS. It looks clear and works better in my opinion. Please feel free if anyone wants to take this further than I have.

MagicMike
01-29-2019, 12:00 PM
No problem Mike. You may be doing crazy stupid stuff, but I thought you were genuine.

Well it looks like a mystery to me.
Is the residue always brown? Always the same colour?
The 'distilled' OMS certainly looks clear.

If there was a safe way of doing it with ordinary mineral spirits, I would certainly consider it, because I go through quite a lot of it over time, and it's very difficult to dispose of it where I live.

Yes the residual oily substance is always that color and consistency.

Watch out for someone to lecture you on your overuse of OMS and how you must have a problem and are doing it totally wrong to be using so much OMS. Lol

MagicMike
01-29-2019, 12:03 PM
Thanks for posting an update with details and photos and thanks again for sharing the process with us. I will definitely be doing this with my used OMS in the future, based on my own testing.

Youíre welcome thanks for your support and genuine interest. Are you getting similar results?

contumacious
01-30-2019, 03:42 PM
Youíre welcome thanks for your support and genuine interest. Are you getting similar results?

It is still slightly yellow in tint but sediment free and clear to look through after 2 sessions at 225 F for 90 minutes. I will let it sit for 12 hours off the heat to see if it turns more clear. I started with fairly clean OMS that had some pigment floating in it. The pigment dropped out of the liquid in a matter of just a few minutes, well before it got very hot. It looked like it had been settling for a week at room temp.

It was pretty cold the first day I tried it, low 30s. You could easily see the misty condensed vapors rolling about inside the pot. They would rise to the top, then roll back down the sides. With the lid off it looked much like a pot of boiling water with "steam" rising out of it. With the lid on, I could not see any of that visible vapor trail exiting the pot unless I removed the grabber screw from the vent hole. Today, being much warmer, in the 40s, the visible condensing vapor was not visible inside the pot, only when the lid was removed.

I used my ANSI calibrated nose to smell the area about 2 inches from the heated pot. I couldn't smell anything at all. I had to get my nose about 2 inches inch from the junction of the lid and the pot before I could detect the smell of the KleanStrip OMS which has a pretty strong odor compared to Gamsol. It was a very low concentration. With the lid off the smell was significantly greater than an open pot with no heat being applied.

I tried to ignite the atmosphere around the pot, with the lid on, using a remotely held open flame. With the lid on, even bringing the flame within 2 inches of the gap between the lid and the pot, I could not ignite the vapors. I was prepared for and expecting the lid to shoot off the pot with a fireball exiting as it went. I am pretty sure that had I touched the flame to the joint of the lid and the pot it would have ignited the fumes inside, but my 2 inch proximity test was enough for me and I didn't want to risk breaking the glass lid. No mater where I placed the flame, otherwise, even in direct contact with the sides of the pot, the hotplate surface and the table where the setup was resting on, I got no ignition. The only way I could get a flame by staying at least 2 inches away was to take the lid off and place the open flame right at the edge of the pot lid. When I did that a flame about 15" high came out of the pot and it kept burning vigorously with about a 10 inch flame over the top of the pot. I was able to snuff it out instantly by replacing the lid.

The vapors were condensing on the lid and dripping back into the pot with very little escaping to the atmosphere. This lid was fairly tight fitting. A looser lid might let out more vapors. You can see the cloud like condensing vapor in the photograph. It basically just stayed in the pot.

My conclusion is that a flash fire would be very unlikely if the lid is left on at all times when heat is being applied, though it certainly is possible, particularly if the vapors were restricted somehow such as in a small room or enclosure. The most risky moment is when the material is hot and the lid is removed. Knowing what the flames are like, I am not concerned about an accidental ignition, but if you weren't prepared for it you could certainly singe the hair off you arms if they were unprotected. If you don't take the lid off at all while the stuff is hot, there isn't going to be much there in the air to ignite. Without the heat being present, I could not get the fumes to ignite at all in the pot.

I am not encouraging anyone to do this, just sharing my experience.

My basic safety procedures:

Wear face, hand and arm protection
Only work outdoors in an open area with no low spots and no combustible materials nearby.
Choose a day with a steady, slight breeze and stay upwind of the pot
Keep the lid on the pot when the solution is hot
No open flames or smoking in the area
Keep a thermometer on the hotplate to check the temperature
Keep other people away from the setup with signs / ropes etc.

Delofasht
01-30-2019, 05:21 PM
I used my ANSI calibrated nose to smell the area about 2 inches from the heated pot. I couldn't smell anything at all.

I tried to ignite the atmosphere around the pot, with the lid on, using a remotely held open flame. With the lid on, even bringing the flame within 2 inches of the gap between the lid and the pot, I could not ignite the vapors.


:lol: I'm dying... sides killing me... can't breathe.


My basic safety procedures:

Wear face, hand and arm protection
Only work outdoors in an open area with no low spots and no combustible materials nearby.
Choose a day with a steady, slight breeze and stay upwind of the pot
Keep the lid on the pot when the solution is hot
No open flames or smoking in the area
Keep a thermometer on the hotplate to check the temperature
Keep other people away from the setup with signs / ropes etc.

I approve of these precautions.

MagicMike
01-30-2019, 05:38 PM
Thanks for sharing and adding to the conversation on how this can be done safely and responsibly.

contumacious
01-30-2019, 06:15 PM
The stuff left in the bottom did not get very thick. I am guessing that is because there wasn't very much residue in there. This was a fairly clean batch of OMS. I have some that is a lot more contaminated I plan to try later.

Ron Francis
01-31-2019, 03:37 AM
The stuff left in the bottom did not get very thick. I am guessing that is because there wasn't very much residue in there. This was a fairly clean batch of OMS. I have some that is a lot more contaminated I plan to try later.

If your OMS is more smelly than Gamsol then it is probably less refined, meaning that it is probably a stronger solvent.
If this really is some type on distillation of a kind, my guess is that separation wouldn't be as easy.

Raffless
01-31-2019, 07:23 AM
Seriously. I thought only us British were this eccentric.

contumacious
01-31-2019, 12:02 PM
The dirtier batch of OMS ended up significantly more clear than the first batch though it does have a very slight green tint from Phthalo pigments. I think the first batch might have had more Alkyd residue in it.

I forgot to add to the procedure list that I do keep a fire extinguisher close at hand, as well as a sheet of 1/8" thick aluminum plate that I can use to snuff out any flames in the pot in case the lid is compromised somehow.

Anyway - I ended up with about two gallons of pigment and oil residue free OMS for a few pennies worth of electricity. Less for the toxic waste dump and more money for a new muller, for very little effort. It was mostly just waiting time. The entire process, not counting the waiting time, firing up the hotplate, filling the pot, pouring it off into clean containers, takes no more than 5 minutes per batch. Fortunately I live out in the boondocks with no close neighbors, so I can set this out on my gravel parking area and keep an eye on it from within my studio.

Richard P
01-31-2019, 03:40 PM
Seriously. I thought only us British were this eccentric.

Are you saying the pigments wanted to remain or leave the OMS? :evil:

contumacious
02-01-2019, 12:09 PM
Are you saying the pigments wanted to remain or leave the OMS? :evil:

Pigment-Brexit from the OMS-Union! *good one*

Raffless
02-01-2019, 12:15 PM
Are you saying the pigments wanted to remain or leave the OMS? :evil:

Tusk tusk!!:)

Richard P
02-01-2019, 03:06 PM
Sorry I think I might have crossed a red line there.

Pinguino
02-01-2019, 03:47 PM
Finally, I figured out the true meaning of "recycling OMS." It has to do with Bhuddism. :grouphug:

Those of us with bad Karma are destined to Saṃsāra, which is an endless cycle of rebirth, into forms not necessarily human.

However, with good Karma, we may instead achieve Nirvana. One path to this is via the recitation of mantras, particularly OM.

Thus, recycling OMS is a strategy employed by those of us with middling Karma, who have not sufficiently recited OM in our present life, but who are good enough to be reborn into a form where OM can be recited again.

The relevance to oil painting is clear: In general, oil painters have middling Karma, and must recycle OMS until, in the final lifetime before reaching Nirvana, they forget about oil painting and instead take up a form of art that does not engender so much technical discussion. :heart:

stapeliad
02-01-2019, 04:11 PM
At the risk of REALLY taking this thread to another dimension altogether...

(honestly guys I think the Tech Forum is an inter-dimensional portal sometimes with all the weirdness and tangents that frequently occur...)

"There is nothing good or bad, only thinking makes it so." Shakespeare, Hamlet

There is no good/bad karma, because karma is not punishment.
Learn your lessons and you don't repeat them.

Saṃsāra, which is an endless cycle of rebirth

It isn't endless, the way off the karmic wheel is through forgiveness and loving everyone.

It would therefore not be our karma, but the karma of the OMS!
Maybe it finally gets liberated from it's endless recycling of impurities by evaporating! :D

Richard P
02-01-2019, 04:19 PM
You can speed up the karmic wheel of death and rebirth by inhaling the OMS! :)

Ron Francis
02-01-2019, 04:32 PM
That made me laugh.

stapeliad
02-01-2019, 05:21 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: