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phil alvirez
12-11-2018, 07:19 PM
whats the advantage of each 1?
1-acrs dry too fast; oils take forever.
some need something that is not too fast, but that we dont have to wait too long.
2-now there are fast oils (alkyds), and slow acrs (dont know the name of the chemistry).
so, which 1 works for you?
differences between brands, if more than 1 on each type?
so far i have seen that are several alkyd brands, but only 1 slow acr (golden open), but may be others.
any1 who has experienced both?
comments, sources?

thanks.

Gigalot
12-12-2018, 01:49 AM
You can try Acrylic for underpainting and then use Oil paint on top. Acrylic underlayer dries fast, while oil paint do not sink in acrylic. That gives time economy and very good longevity to painting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fMcRkTYWs&t=640s
He did acrylic underpainting for oils.

phil alvirez
12-12-2018, 06:32 AM
thank you very much for the idea and the example.

vhere
12-12-2018, 06:33 AM
I agree with the above.

I like acrylics if I use flow enhancer and matt medium so they flow better and I can glaze, scratch through etc etc etc

Previously I only really used them for underpainting as oils could do so much more for the way I paint - soft diffused edges where I needed them, which aren't easy with acrylics and water, you need to use a medium.

I love Griffin Alkyd oils for their fast drying, I don't want to wait days/weeks to be able to glaze and work over layers.

phil alvirez
12-12-2018, 07:55 AM
thank you for your insight. great way to use them.
am curious about: "flow enhancer and matt medium"
could you provide links or exact details on them?
names, brands, sources...
additives are sometimes the solution.
thanks again for your comments.

yakker0117
12-12-2018, 08:07 AM
Following.

TWAdair Art
12-12-2018, 09:45 AM
I use Gamblin Oils. They aren't fast drying but you can use a fast drying medium like Galkyd to speed up the process.

DickHutchings
12-12-2018, 09:49 AM
I like Ateliar Interactives for my acrylic painting. I can get oil like edges with it quite easily.

Grotius
12-12-2018, 01:41 PM
I might suggest you try using plain old oils for one or two paintings, without any fast-drying mediums, just to see if you like it. There's a joy to oil painting that is unique to the medium.

My oil paints don't take "forever" to dry. They're mostly dry to the touch in a week or so, even without fast-drying mediums, regardless of the brand I use. (I use all sorts of brands, though I lean toward more buttery consistencies: M. Graham, Rembrandt, Winsor & Newton, Michael Harding, Gamblin.)

I like that time frame because it gives me a few days to paint wet-in-wet if I want, or to wait a bit longer and do something more like glazing. But I almost always like having the option to adjust while the painting is still wet. My drawing, colors, composition, values etc are rarely perfect after my first go! I know one can just paint over acrylics, but they don't give you the option of wet-in-wet, and that's a very nice option.

If I am indeed done with wet-in-wet, then yes, I put a painting aside for a week or so and work on something else. I think this is good for developing skill. Better to work on many paintings in a year than just one magnum opus. As Kevin McPherson says, we should aim to start 500 different paintings. Oil painting encourages this by encouraging us to set things aside, try something new, then come back to the first painting.

In sum, I have nothing against acrylics. But why not try the pure oil experience first?

vhere
12-12-2018, 01:52 PM
thank you for your insight. great way to use them.
am curious about: "flow enhancer and matt medium"
could you provide links or exact details on them?
names, brands, sources...
additives are sometimes the solution.
thanks again for your comments.

just do a search on youtube and there are bound to be demos

flow enhancer you mix one part to ten parts of water. It delays drying time by 10 minutes, allowing you to achieve softer colour transitions and gives you more time - very transparent.

Matt medium (there is also gloss) gives you 10 minutes or so to push the paint around before it dries and enables brilliant glazes of colour, including light over dark, which you can scratch through and move it around.

phil alvirez
12-12-2018, 04:05 PM
I might suggest you try using plain old oils for one or two paintings, without any fast-drying mediums, just to see if you like it. There's a joy to oil painting that is unique to the medium.

My oil paints don't take "forever" to dry. They're mostly dry to the touch in a week or so, even without fast-drying mediums, regardless of the brand I use. (I use all sorts of brands, though I lean toward more buttery consistencies: M. Graham, Rembrandt, Winsor & Newton, Michael Harding, Gamblin.)

I like that time frame because it gives me a few days to paint wet-in-wet if I want, or to wait a bit longer and do something more like glazing. But I almost always like having the option to adjust while the painting is still wet. My drawing, colors, composition, values etc are rarely perfect after my first go! I know one can just paint over acrylics, but they don't give you the option of wet-in-wet, and that's a very nice option.

If I am indeed done with wet-in-wet, then yes, I put a painting aside for a week or so and work on something else. I think this is good for developing skill. Better to work on many paintings in a year than just one magnum opus. As Kevin McPherson says, we should aim to start 500 different paintings. Oil painting encourages this by encouraging us to set things aside, try something new, then come back to the first painting.

In sum, I have nothing against acrylics. But why not try the pure oil experience first?

thank you for your advice. when i started painting, it was oil. for a long time. but not wet on wet. and i do several paints at same time. recently am learning to paint fast because i want to try plein air. hence my quest. so far i have tried golden open (slow acrylics) and also have tried w&n griffin alkyd (fast oil) and still have not decided which fits me best. but would like to hear for as many as possible personal experiences. and as there are many options with all kinds of additives, it is great to hear from all of you. keep the input coming!
and again, thank you all for so great advice.

phil alvirez
12-12-2018, 04:10 PM
just do a search on youtube and there are bound to be demos

flow enhancer you mix one part to ten parts of water. It delays drying time by 10 minutes, allowing you to achieve softer colour transitions and gives you more time - very transparent.

Matt medium (there is also gloss) gives you 10 minutes or so to push the paint around before it dries and enables brilliant glazes of colour, including light over dark, which you can scratch through and move it around.

thanks for your ideas. and, yes, i have been searching. but still would be good to hear from all of you what you use and where you get it. would you?
and, what is the 'flow enhancer'? who makes it? is that the name to look for? who sells it? what is that '1 part'? of what? matt medium: from whom?
see my point? thanks again.:clap:

JCannon
12-12-2018, 04:47 PM
I think buyers are biased in favor of oil paintings, so one must take that into consideration.

Oils have many virtues and many drawbacks. The main virtue, in my opinion, is ease of blending. Not too long ago, I did a portrait based on a 19th century photo. The bowtie began as a black shape; once the black was dry (a few days), I went in with rust brown paint and molded and shaped it. A photo-real bowtie came together in about twenty minutes. With acrylics, things would have taken much longer.

And when it comes to reproducing skin, there's nothing quite like oil. Hard to explain why.

~JMW~
12-12-2018, 04:52 PM
Most of the basic beginner info you are asking about can be found with online web searches.. And on most of the paint manufacturers websites..

You tube videos can show you how & explain how to use, and what mediums & retarders are.. and the difference between Oils & acrylics..

If you are sensitive to chemicals/odors or have limited space for storing oil paintings, then I'd suggest acrylics..
They can be blended just like oils, but it takes time & studying- Jerry Yarnell on you tube.. shows how he does it and has nice beginners and intermediate videos..
and practice, you can't mix piles of colors and have them sitting a long time like oils..
1 color mix at a time & use that , then next color & use it, so on..

I am trying a small set of Golden Open Acrylics, but not seeing that much difference in dry times, they do seem oilier and leave a shine when applied and left at a slight thickness.
I won't buy those again..


There are sticky threads on each forum topic here that has a lot of basic beginner information.. or use the WC search for flow , mediums ..
Using searches for those will save a lot or typing & trying to explain everything in a post.

These links will help you find some of the forums & stickys above them..
acrylic forum- http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=9

Color Theory and Mixing - http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=14

phil alvirez
12-12-2018, 05:08 PM
I think buyers are biased in favor of oil paintings, so one must take that into consideration.

Oils have many virtues and many drawbacks. The main virtue, in my opinion, is ease of blending. Not too long ago, I did a portrait based on a 19th century photo. The bowtie began as a black shape; once the black was dry (a few days), I went in with rust brown paint and molded and shaped it. A photo-real bowtie came together in about twenty minutes. With acrylics, things would have taken much longer.

And when it comes to reproducing skin, there's nothing quite like oil. Hard to explain why.

couldnt agree more. great comments.

phil alvirez
12-12-2018, 05:16 PM
Most of the basic beginner info you are asking about can be found with online web searches.. And on most of the paint manufacturers websites..

You tube videos can show you how & explain how to use, and what mediums & retarders are.. and the difference between Oils & acrylics..

If you are sensitive to chemicals/odors or have limited space for storing oil paintings, then I'd suggest acrylics..
They can be blended just like oils, but it takes time & studying- Jerry Yarnell on you tube.. shows how he does it and has nice beginners and intermediate videos..
and practice, you can't mix piles of colors and have them sitting a long time like oils..
1 color mix at a time & use that , then next color & use it, so on..

I am trying a small set of Golden Open Acrylics, but not seeing that much difference in dry times, they do seem oilier and leave a shine when applied and left at a slight thickness.
I won't buy those again..


There are sticky threads on each forum topic here that has a lot of basic beginner information.. or use the WC search for flow , mediums ..
Using searches for those will save a lot or typing & trying to explain everything in a post.

These links will help you find some of the forums & stickys above them..
acrylic forum- http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=9

Color Theory and Mixing - http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=14

thank you very much. great input.
the reason of this thread is to learn from everybody what they think and do about it. i understand that there are many ways and this is what am interested into. so everybody tell your view. :wave:
this intrigues me: "I am trying a small set of Golden Open Acrylics, but not seeing that much difference in dry times, they do seem oilier and leave a shine when applied and left at a slight thickness.
I won't buy those again.. "
these are some of the paints am trying to compare, as they are slow enough to work like oils, to a point, and if begin to dry, just a dab of water keeps them workable. not exactly like oils, but interesting to master them. lets hear comments from some who have tried them...;) thanks again.

billmahler
12-12-2018, 05:17 PM
I painted with acrylics for 10 years and switched to oils 10 years ago.
I've never thought twice about going back to acrylics.
Golfing great Ben Hogan when asked about his favorite brand of golf clubs, replied:
It's the mechanic, not the tools.

phil alvirez
12-12-2018, 05:23 PM
I painted with acrylics for 10 years and switched to oils 10 years ago.
I've never thought twice about going back to acrylics.
Golfing great Ben Hogan when asked about his favorite brand of golf clubs, replied:
It's the mechanic, not the tools.

but what about alkyds? and the golden open? those are not the same.
alkyds make oil dry faster-whenever you need it.
and opens make acrylics dry slower.
have you tried both?
and 'an archer is no better than his arrows' ;)

Harold Roth
12-12-2018, 05:50 PM
I have used both acrylics and oils. For me, oils have been easier to deal with, precisely because acrylics dry more quickly. Open acrylics do dry less quickly than other acrylics and allow for some time to do blending, but I found that I got sensitized to whatever volatile they were releasing (an amine of ammonia, according to Golden) and I had to give up acrylics altogether. However, oils have been much easier for me to deal with. I use walnut oil only and yes, things do take longer to dry, but I a) choose pigments that dry more quickly and b) have a bunch of paintings going at the same time so that I always have something to work on. I find that it is easy to deal with oils using nothing but walnut oil to moderate viscosity. The other nice thing about oils is that there are a lot more pigments available in oil form. So all in all, although I ended up in oils because of a sensitization to the volatiles in acrylic, I ended up with a better choice for me. I do believe that buyers favor oils, so there is that, especially if they are on canvas instead of panel.

phil alvirez
12-12-2018, 10:31 PM
great input. thank you very much.
i dont see that you have dealt with alkyd like w&n griffin, which is sort of oil and dries faster. it would be interesting to hear from you when/if you do.
or anybody else?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504732

Gigalot
12-13-2018, 03:20 AM
great input. thank you very much.
i dont see that you have dealt with alkyd like w&n griffin, which is sort of oil and dries faster. it would be interesting to hear from you when/if you do.
or anybody else?
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504732
For me, the main reason to use oil paint is it's slowly drying properties. I am not acrylist, I hate acrylic but the main reason why I use it as underpainting for oil is it's fast drying nature, but not it's creative power.. :lol: But anyway, I completely hate any other medium except traditional oil paint and watercolor pencils. The creative power of oil paint is unbeatable.

sidbledsoe
12-13-2018, 08:35 AM
Imagine walking into a republican convention and asking the people there
"what are the advantages of being a Democrat?"
Well that is effectively what we have here.
Whenever I see a question like this one, I recommend that you also post it in the acrylic section, just for kicks.
I like both equally well. I can slow acrylics with spray and medium, I can speed oil drying with alkyds.
I have tried Golden Opens and think that they have less covering power, which I do not like.

DickHutchings
12-13-2018, 09:37 AM
I might suggest you try using plain old oils for one or two paintings, without any fast-drying mediums, just to see if you like it. There's a joy to oil painting that is unique to the medium.

My oil paints don't take "forever" to dry. They're mostly dry to the touch in a week or so, even without fast-drying mediums, regardless of the brand I use. (I use all sorts of brands, though I lean toward more buttery consistencies: M. Graham, Rembrandt, Winsor & Newton, Michael Harding, Gamblin.)

I like that time frame because it gives me a few days to paint wet-in-wet if I want, or to wait a bit longer and do something more like glazing. But I almost always like having the option to adjust while the painting is still wet. My drawing, colors, composition, values etc are rarely perfect after my first go! I know one can just paint over acrylics, but they don't give you the option of wet-in-wet, and that's a very nice option.

If I am indeed done with wet-in-wet, then yes, I put a painting aside for a week or so and work on something else. I think this is good for developing skill. Better to work on many paintings in a year than just one magnum opus. As Kevin McPherson says, we should aim to start 500 different paintings. Oil painting encourages this by encouraging us to set things aside, try something new, then come back to the first painting.

In sum, I have nothing against acrylics. But why not try the pure oil experience first?

I really like this idea and it's making me want to go full out trad and not be concerned with drying times. I'll have to do this in my basement workshop away from the guest room I'm currently in. I'll need to cover my paintings on the easel and off so that will need to be considered. Some kind of cabinet with dividers or am I going overboard? How do you protect your wet paintings?

phil alvirez
12-13-2018, 10:50 AM
Imagine walking into a republican convention and asking the people there
"what are the advantages of being a Democrat?"
Well that is effectively what we have here.
Whenever I see a question like this one, I recommend that you also post it in the acrylic section, just for kicks.
I like both equally well. I can slow acrylics with spray and medium, I can speed oil drying with alkyds.
I have tried Golden Opens and think that they have less covering power, which I do not like.


Doug

[quote=phil alvirez]
when i started this thread i asked Yorky (administrator) where to do so, and he said:"select either oils or acrylics"
i was considering doing on both but was afraid it could be considered double posting. hence why only here. but if it is not double posting i will do at acrylics too. that made sense to me.
and thanks for your opinions. that is the main reason for this. :wave:

Dcam
12-13-2018, 11:11 AM
Phil: I show both my acrylics and my oils. Most viewers and Gallery Owners can't tell which mediums I have used in a painting.
Lately, I've been doing a lot of acrylic under painting (thin) for my oils.
I LOVE it!

phil alvirez
12-13-2018, 11:24 AM
thank you for your comment and links: terrific photo realism! :clap:

indeed, there is room for both!

yakker0117
12-13-2018, 11:53 AM
Imagine walking into a republican convention and asking the people there
"what are the advantages of being a Democrat?"
Well that is effectively what we have here.
Whenever I see a question like this one, I recommend that you also post it in the acrylic section, just for kicks.
I like both equally well. I can slow acrylics with spray and medium, I can speed oil drying with alkyds.
I have tried Golden Opens and think that they have less covering power, which I do not like.

Imagine going into a Democrat convention and asking the advantages of being a Republican. They would all be triggered and run you out of the building.

phil alvirez
12-13-2018, 12:37 PM
the good thing of here is that we all are people of good sense and find the question interesting and provide their personal experience and/or balanced opinions, isnt it?
and, what could be your contribution to the quest?
thanks

AllisonR
12-13-2018, 01:35 PM
I might suggest you try using plain old oils for one or two paintings, without any fast-drying mediums, just to see if you like it. There's a joy to oil painting that is unique to the medium. ....

In sum, I have nothing against acrylics. But why not try the pure oil experience first?

I used acrylics for 30+ years. LOVED them for texture, large scale....

If you want to really experience oils, try regular oils and enjoy the things acrylics don't have - soft edges, depth of color....

If the only thing that is important to you is drying time, then perhaps Golden Open Acrylics + slow drying glazing medium to slow drying even more, will be more useful for you.

phil alvirez
12-13-2018, 01:49 PM
I used acrylics for 30+ years. LOVED them for texture, large scale....

If you want to really experience oils, try regular oils and enjoy the things acrylics don't have - soft edges, depth of color....

If the only thing that is important to you is drying time, then perhaps Golden Open Acrylics + slow drying glazing medium to slow drying even more, will be more useful for you.

as i answered to him (post 11):
thank you for your advice. when i started painting, it was oil. for a long time. but not wet on wet. and i do several paints at same time. recently am learning to paint fast because i want to try plein air. hence my quest. so far i have tried golden open (slow acrylics) and also have tried w&n griffin alkyd (fast oil) and still have not decided which fits me best. but would like to hear for as many as possible personal experiences. and as there are many options with all kinds of additives, it is great to hear from all of you. keep the input coming!
and again, thank you all for so great advice.

yakker0117
12-13-2018, 02:14 PM
the good thing of here is that we all are people of good sense and find the question interesting and provide their personal experience and/or balanced opinions, isnt it?
and, what could be your contribution to the quest?
thanks
It irks me when someone interjects politics into threads on this board, subtle as it may be Iív seen it before and it does not belong. Just pointing it out.

phil alvirez
12-13-2018, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by phil alvirez
the good thing of here is that we all are people of good sense and find the question interesting and provide their personal experience and/or balanced opinions, isnt it?
and, what could be your contribution to the quest?
thanks

when i said that i was referring to the question i posed, not what he was talking about. i hope this clarifies the meaning of my comment.

phil alvirez
12-13-2018, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by sidbledsoe
Imagine walking into a republican convention and asking the people there
"what are the advantages of being a Democrat?"
Well that is effectively what we have here.
Whenever I see a question like this one, I recommend that you also post it in the acrylic section, just for kicks.
I like both equally well. I can slow acrylics with spray and medium, I can speed oil drying with alkyds.
I have tried Golden Opens and think that they have less covering power, which I do not like.


Doug

[quote=phil alvirez]
when i started this thread i asked Yorky (administrator) where to do so, and he said:"select either oils or acrylics"
i was considering doing on both but was afraid it could be considered double posting. hence why only here. but if it is not double posting i will do at acrylics too. that made sense to me.
and thanks for your opinions. that is the main reason for this.


and here when i thanked him i was referring to his opinions regarding the paints, not his political views.
seems that i must be clear about this.

phil alvirez
12-13-2018, 03:20 PM
REWRITING MY ANSWER: SEE BELOW
posts 22/24
in other words:
Originally Posted by sidbledsoe
Imagine walking into a republican convention and asking the people there
"what are the advantages of being a Democrat?"
Well that is effectively what we have here.
Whenever I see a question like this one, I recommend that you also post it in the acrylic section, just for kicks.
I like both equally well. I can slow acrylics with spray and medium, I can speed oil drying with alkyds.
I have tried Golden Opens and think that they have less covering power, which I do not like.
Doug

[quote=phil alvirez]
when i started this thread i asked Yorky (administrator) where to do so, and he said:"select either oils or acrylics"
i was considering doing on both but was afraid it could be considered double posting. hence why only here. but if it is not double posting i will do at acrylics too. that made sense to me.
and thanks for your opinions REGARDING THE PAINTS. that is the main reason for this.

what i meant was about this that he said:
"Whenever I see a question like this one, I recommend that you also post it in the acrylic section, just for kicks.
I like both equally well. I can slow acrylics with spray and medium, I can speed oil drying with alkyds.
I have tried Golden Opens and think that they have less covering power, which I do not like."

i hope this clarifies what i meant.

phil alvirez
12-13-2018, 03:23 PM
and posts 27/28:

what he said:
Imagine going into a Democrat convention and asking the advantages of being a Republican. They would all be triggered and run you out of the building.

and my answer:
the good thing of here is that we all are people of good sense and find the question interesting and provide their personal experience and/or balanced opinions, isnt it?
and, what could be your contribution to the quest?
thanks

here i was referring to the original question : oil or acrylics. the original question.
that is the question that we find interesting.
not the political issue.
again, i hope this clarifies the situation.

yakker0117
12-13-2018, 03:49 PM
Sid, I apologize if I offended or if I misunderstood your intention. I suppose IĎve become to sensitive in this time of political divide.

Phil, I was not referring to your comments. You did not introduce politics.

Enough said!

sidbledsoe
12-13-2018, 07:33 PM
Sid, I apologize if I offended or if I misunderstood your intention. I suppose IĎve become to sensitive in this time of political divide.

Phil, I was not referring to your comments. You did not introduce politics.

Enough said!
no worry at all yakker, I apologize, I must remember to watch what I say sometimes, sorry :eek:
I just meant that there can be bias in one forum vs another.
I could have said it in the vice versa way for sure.:smug:
Our oil forum used to say "Oils the Queen of All Mediums"
but that was deleted so as to not sound offensive to other medium afficianados.
An acrylic lover would likely say that acrylic fast drying is such a superior advantage over oils, but then the oil lover may sometimes say that acrylic fast drying makes it simply impossible to use!
I think they all work good if you know how to use them, heck Alex even mixes oils and acrylic paint together! :lol:
I don't know if it has been mentioned yet but,
One of the most common disadvantages with acrylics that is talked about is the drying shift in color/value.
But this has actually been improved or eliminated with the top of the line acrylics such as Winsor Newton Artist and Golden paints.
And even oils often shift too, when they dry matte vs when they are fresh and shiny, or with using different paints or mediums as seen here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAUaRSUyipY)

phil alvirez
12-14-2018, 12:41 PM
i posted this at the acrylics forum but is relevant to this too, so here it is:

Re: oil or acrylics: which 1?
i want to thank you all for posting. the reason of this thread is to hear from you all, so i may reach a better way.
maybe could be beneficial to others too
perhaps using more than 1 stuff can help.
some use acrylics for the base coat; sort of toning specific areas to the closest color, then use oils. that saves time.
and then maybe alkyds for oils to shorten the drying time. at least on some details.
or golden open to slow down acrylics too.
all this can be of help to achieve our goals.
but all depends on your way.
of course, some have decided that whatever use is THE way to go (for them) and dont want to mess with anything else. thats another solution. why not?
there is room for everything.
and still could be another way... (maybe even more than 1)
any1?

Richard P
12-14-2018, 05:44 PM
If you have tried both fast drying Alkyd Oils (W&N Griffin) and Slow drying Acrylics (Golden OPEN) and still can't decide then they must be very similar to you personally. With all these mediums and media the best option is to try yourself as every artist has their own preferences.

WFMartin
12-14-2018, 06:07 PM
To answer the original poster's question, I shall point out the following:

Acrylics: Dry extremely fast. But, the reason I don't use them is that after they dry, they are a different color than when they were wet. I could invent ways to deal with the fast-drying, but their penchant to to be a different color after drying caused me great frustration, and fits. Their fast-drying can either be an advantage, or a disadvantage, depending upon what may be more important to you, and your method of operation. For example, while fast-drying can be a severe detriment to blending (skies, for example), one can also apply many glaze layers of paint within a matter of hours, rather than days, as with oils.

Acrylics: Smell like ammonia, and sometimes like formaldehyde.

Acrylics: Mess up the tools equipment, drying as hard as a rock extremely fast, and causing much more frantic clean-up than oils. Brushes (bristles, and handles, both) tend to be contaminated with dried, acrylic paint.

Oil Paint: Remains open (wet) upon your palette, and your tools for the duration of a working session. Remaining fluid, and workable, you can easily blend, and push paint around on both your palette, and your canvas, for a very long time--at least one day.

Oil Paint: Smells wonderful of Linseed Oil, or Walnut Oil.

Oil Paint: Cleans off brush bristles, and handles easily with Odorless Mineral Spirits, almost any time before the paint dries. No rushing to remove oil paint before it dries, because it dries so slowly.

Oil Paint: Pretty much retains the same color after they have dried, as they were when they were wet. This is important when you wish to match a color with fresh paint against a color that has already dried upon the canvas.

Of course, I use Acrylic Primer to seal my canvas before I apply oil paint, but all my "image paint" is oil paint, once the Acrylic Primer has been applied. Acrylic Primer (incorrectly called, "Gesso") has different ingredients than Acrylic Paint, making it an appropriate material upon which to apply subsequent oil paint. Primarily, Acrylic Primer exhibits more "tooth" than does Acrylic Paint, causing the oil paint to adhere to it much better than to mere Acrylic Paint.

Michael Lion
12-14-2018, 07:53 PM
Advantage of oil is that the public perceives oil paintings to be superior to acrylic paintings, and the paint dries slower giving you more time to work and to clean your brushes.

blondheim12
12-14-2018, 09:28 PM
I use three mediums regularly, oils, acrylics and casein. I like all three for a variety of reasons. It doesnít have to be either or. My oils and acrylics look so similar that most people donít know them to be different. In terms of sales, my collectors have no bias. Most of the bias for oils comes from painters, not collectors in my experience.

JCannon
12-14-2018, 09:41 PM
blondheim, I'm glad that your collectors don't care about whether the work is in acrylics or oils. Others have told me that this is a factor.

Many years ago, I passed by a gallery in Century City featuring several original paintings by Leroy Neiman. They were all labeled "oil" paintings. I told the manager: "You do realize that he paints in acrylics, don't you?"

"YES," he said through gritted teeth. And then he shot me a look that said GET OUT NOW.

A week later, the paintings were still labeled "Medium: Oil."

I must presume that, at that time, in that place, the magic word "oil" made a painting easier to sell. This bias may not exist nowadays. I certainly hope that's the case!

blondheim12
12-14-2018, 09:44 PM
Yes,
I think perceptions are changing now.

sidbledsoe
12-15-2018, 07:39 AM
Yet more acrylic advantages (not even mentioned yet here in the oil forum).
1- Water can be used for in process brush cleaning and final cleanup.
2- No need for worry about layering paint as far as waiting, thin vs thick, etc.
since the almighty nuisance Fat over Lean does not apply to acrylics.
3- Longevity without cracking issues.
4- No need for a 6 month to 1 year wait for finalization of the painting with final varnish.

wal_t
12-16-2018, 12:13 PM
I use them both and like them both. Acrylics are a bit more versatile especially with all the gels and mediums available for it and just a bit less messy when doing cleanups. When i have more time and want a softer appearance I use oils, easier cleanup and bolder statements in a shorter timeframd then i use acrylics ..... but the reverse can also be done :clap:

sidbledsoe
12-16-2018, 12:21 PM
I keep remembering more acrylic advantages,
No yellowing/darkening issues due to the binding oils, mediums, and varnishes that are used with oils.

phil alvirez
04-04-2019, 12:29 PM
i want to thank you all who have contributed to this quest.
eventually i have reached conclusions:
(please consider that this is based on MY experience and that i paint landscape)
1-i can get whatever effects i want with oil, but not with acrylics.
2-problem is, oil takes way more time to dry, even when using additives (so-called mediums or gels), and when using them they add transparency, that i sometimes dont need;
3-even if there are slower drying acrylics like golden open, they dry way faster than oil, so cant replace oil for some effects;
4-at the end of the day, i use all on 1 painting:
am using oil alone or with additives, and also acrylics-most of the time open, and this depends on where each 1 works best for my needs.
so, for me there is room for all.
once again, thanks to all.

Ian_Myford
04-07-2019, 04:12 AM
whats the advantage of each 1?
1-acrs dry too fast; oils take forever.
some need something that is not too fast, but that we dont have to wait too long.
2-now there are fast oils (alkyds), and slow acrs (dont know the name of the chemistry).
so, which 1 works for you?
differences between brands, if more than 1 on each type?
so far i have seen that are several alkyd brands, but only 1 slow acr (golden open), but may be others.
any1 who has experienced both?
comments, sources?

thanks.

Use both.

Block in with acrylics

Paint over with Oil and blend in detail.

I tried it.

It works.

Irishman
04-07-2019, 06:46 AM
I have painted in watercolours for a good few years and in the last month have experimented with acrylics. I love the process, not specifically the acrylics but the opposite nature of the process to that of watercolours. But I already can see how oils are so attractive and am once again considering WMOs. Only because I canít seem to find any real definitive way to get the first layer down in traditional oils without toxic/headache inducing materials such as thinners as we generally know them. Other than that Iíd be at them right now. I can also see the point about oil paintings selling and letís face it, whilst we might not all need or want to sell, there is something great about it. I have painted some if not a few good watercolours and have only sold one whilst someone I know who paints in what might be considered a less appealing or attractive way in oils sells loads. Now of course there are multiple factors involved in selling paintings but I doubt if anyone would argue that oils are more attractive, for whatever reasons, to say watercolours and maybe acrylics. To answer your question Iíd echo the suggestion from Grotius to try oils and agree that the time for drying is embraced as opposed to fought. Best wishes.

Richard P
04-07-2019, 07:20 AM
Have you tried mixing water with the WMOs for the first layer?

Irishman
04-07-2019, 08:07 AM
Hi Richard. Yes, Iíve thought of it all so much do that my head is melted:). To be honest I think oils will happen one way or the other. Itís just which way and/or equally importantly which way financially to begin with. Iím just trying to line it all up because I have to order on line and mistakes can prove even more costly. Iíd have to sell a kidney to afford art supplies in Ireland :crying:

phil alvirez
04-07-2019, 08:41 AM
i paint just because i enjoy doing it. no sales nothing. still, i find oil helping me to get some effects that i cant get with anything else.
of course, the subject may contribute to the choice but, foggy misty effects for instance, i can get only with oil.
i know, Turner was able to get whatever he wanted using watercolors, but i am not Turner.
https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/turner-the-blue-rigi-sunrise-t12336

Richard P
04-07-2019, 02:52 PM
If you already have the WMOs then just try adding water and see how that works. I've done paintings like that and it has some limitations, but works well for some painting styles and is solvent free.

WFMartin
04-07-2019, 06:18 PM
I might suggest you try using plain old oils for one or two paintings, without any fast-drying mediums, just to see if you like it. There's a joy to oil painting that is unique to the medium.

My oil paints don't take "forever" to dry. They're mostly dry to the touch in a week or so, even without fast-drying mediums, regardless of the brand I use. (I use all sorts of brands, though I lean toward more buttery consistencies: M. Graham, Rembrandt, Winsor & Newton, Michael Harding, Gamblin.)

I like that time frame because it gives me a few days to paint wet-in-wet if I want, or to wait a bit longer and do something more like glazing. But I almost always like having the option to adjust while the painting is still wet. My drawing, colors, composition, values etc are rarely perfect after my first go! I know one can just paint over acrylics, but they don't give you the option of wet-in-wet, and that's a very nice option.

If I am indeed done with wet-in-wet, then yes, I put a painting aside for a week or so and work on something else. I think this is good for developing skill. Better to work on many paintings in a year than just one magnum opus. As Kevin McPherson says, we should aim to start 500 different paintings. Oil painting encourages this by encouraging us to set things aside, try something new, then come back to the first painting.

In sum, I have nothing against acrylics. But why not try the pure oil experience first?


Y E A H..... ! ! !

I've painted with acrylics, but only for a very short time. The drying time of acrylic paint is so incredibly fast that when I painted a sky, I couldn't even blend the brush strokes. As I applied a brush stroke, the beginning portion of the stroke began to dry before I had even reached the end of that same doggone stroke!

However, even THAT was a mere inconvenience, compared to the OTHER characteristic of acrylic paint, and that characteristic is that they dry to a different color than they are when wet! That made it nearly impossible for me to match a color accurately when coming back to my painting a day, or a few hours later.

I am not one who enjoys the act of battling with my paints, or mediums, and I feel that it is the ease involved with the use of a painting medium that can cause a painter to actually create noteworthy paintings. Eliminate the distractions of battling with your material, and you will automatically create more exceptional work. In my experience, acrylics truly represent a very difficult "battle".

Oh, and I never apply oil paint over acrylic paint. Over acrylic primer (gesso), yes, .....but never over acrylic paint. They are two different materials. Acrylic primer has been engineered to create an appropriate surface for the application of oil paint, because of the addition of calcium carbonate, often known as "marble dust". It has a "tooth" which allows for the physical bonding of the oil paint, whereas acrylic paint has not been engineered to offer that. Others disagree with that assessment, and they are certainly within their rights to do so.:)