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View Full Version : Water mixables losing their specialty


weidox
12-10-2018, 12:21 PM
Jackson's titanium white linseed 9 months old - absolutely rejects water and artisan thinner.
Jackson's titanium white safflower 5 months old - accepts water (not sure how well), did not check thinner.
Jackson's carbon black 9 months old, Jackson's prussian blue 5 months old - difficult to thin with artisan thinner, did not check water.
I remember when Jackson's paint was freshly received, it thinned nicely with water or thinner, don't remember which I used. Unlike at all what is happening now.
Cobra titanium white, few months old - rejects thinner.
Artisan titanium white, probably few years old - accepts artisan thinner though not so well, Jackson's were much better while fresh but at least artisan still works and it is oldest.
Seems something wrong is happening over time.

weidox
12-11-2018, 03:42 AM
Wrong forum, had to be the technical one. If anyone can move, please.

MrsSellers
12-11-2018, 10:19 AM
I can't speak for your specific case, but I have noticed that when WMOs start to dry on my palette, they tend to lose water miscibility.

contumacious
12-12-2018, 11:45 AM
Pretty sad news for sure. It got me thinking about how some oils tend to get thicker / cure to some extent in the tubes, but they can be recovered by adding some fresh oil. Perhaps try a different WMO medium than the one you currently have, to see if you can get them to accept water as a thinner / cleaning solution by first mixing some thoroughly into the paint at varied amounts. Not having tried this, just going on what I read, I would probably start with a water miscible linseed oil such as that from Lucas or Holbein Duo.

Were they kept at room temperature? Has anyone else had this problem? A google search came up with nothing for me on Water Miscible Oils losing their affinity to water. You may want to call the company and see what they have to say.

Gigalot
12-12-2018, 01:13 PM
Interesting. I guess, WMO lost their surfactant or surfactant reacted with something into paint that lost water solubility.

Richard P
12-12-2018, 05:07 PM
Never had this happen.. although I don't use WMO paints anymore.

DAK723
12-12-2018, 07:21 PM
It is my impression - though I have no sources, nor did I look for one - that Artisan Thinner is meant to be used with Artisan paints only. So, I am not surprised particularly with your results. Nor have I ever used Jacksons. Are they student grade or artist grade?

I have used WMOs exclusively for about the past 5 years (Cobras and Daniel Smith) and WMOs on occasion since they came onto the market 25 or more years ago (primarily Grumbacher MAX, some Holbiens), I don't use Artisan thinner (or any other Artisan products which seem to have far more issues than other WMOs) and have never had any issues with WMOs.

Don

Ted Bunker
12-13-2018, 02:46 AM
To chemically-function they may use an oxygen-curing or even oxygen-catalyzing agent. Once the tube is opened-once it starts to cure, even recapped. ...It's just slower than on the painting's surface. And once the paint or the modified water-muscible oil starts to cure, adding more thinner isn't going to reverse the process. It's like 2-part resin or an epoxy, it just keeps curing.

I've always had the impression tha WMOs were more of a niche product rather than a technical solution. The big proponent of WMOs were the Art Schools attempting to deal with the political and academic issue of solvents in group settings. One student would be fine with Turps, and the adjacent student highly-sensitive. WMOs allowed Schools to declare "solvent-free zones" and so reduce student complaints about "the smell" and potential health issues. Or even those of casual visitors to the studio, ...or even the entire building.

It's not really a technical solution for an "improved" oil painting experience. It' just "handy" under certain conditions; academic, en plein air, enclosed spaces like home-use.

weidox
12-18-2018, 06:12 PM
More testing to complete the picture. Joined results:
Artisan PW6,PW4 - old tube, accepts both water and thinner, though seems that it is easier to thin with water (dissolves into smaller particles from the beginning). That water seems to work better is surprising.
Cobra PW6 - refuses Artisan thinner, difficult to thin with water. I also noticed that paint is quite thick and bit difficult to squeeze out of tube. Doubt if it was such from beginning, and it is only 5 months old.
Jackson's PW6 linseed - refuses both Artisan thinner and water.
Jackson's PW6 safflower - accepts both Artisan thinner and water, and behaves much like Artisan paint - easier with water, smaller particles.

It is my impression - though I have no sources, nor did I look for one - that Artisan Thinner is meant to be used with Artisan paints only. So, I am not surprised particularly with your results. Nor have I ever used Jacksons. Are they student grade or artist grade?
Never saw any information whether Artisan thinner is supposed or not to be used with other brands. Jackson's I'd call student grade based on price and pigment load. And Cobra by pigment load also has to be student grade though their advertising and prices hint for better. Finally Artisan has much better pigment load (similar to Winton) but by prices it is also student grade. (My own pigment load tests in separate thread).

Were they kept at room temperature? Has anyone else had this problem? A google search came up with nothing for me on Water Miscible Oils losing their affinity to water. You may want to call the company and see what they have to say. Room temperature, and I wrote to Jackson's and got no answer (that's quite usual with them when giving some harder questions). I see now there is enough data to write something to Talens/Cobra too.

It's not really a technical solution for an "improved" oil painting experience. It' just "handy" under certain conditions; academic, en plein air, enclosed spaces like home-use. Seems that plein air and enclosed spaces covers everything:) They're really handy.

Richard P
12-19-2018, 04:24 AM
I've found the same thing with contacting Jackson's.

ragtopcircus
12-19-2018, 12:58 PM
I tried Artisan thinner with fresh Holbein Duo, and it didnít really seem to blend well at all. I did not like the one tube of Artisan paint that I tried either. Ok, problem solved (for me): just avoid Artisan altogether.

For accepting water, I havenít noticed much change in Cobra (Artist) or Daniel Smith that has been open for a while, maybe a little with Holbein. Iím a fanatic about keeping my paint sealed. I squeeze out what I need, and then immediately clean the tip (so the threads donít gunk up and keep the cap from sealing) and put the cap back on tight.

DAK723
12-19-2018, 06:58 PM
While not specifically about W&N Thinner, here is quote from the W&N website:
The chemistry of Artisan colours and mediums is of course different from conventional oils and different brands of water mixable oils are not necessarily compatible. We only recommend the use of Artisan mediums with Artisan colours.
Don