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cabbagebutterfly
12-07-2018, 09:34 PM
From a new Wet Canvas member. Iím a mostly watercolorist who foolishly has committed to giving an oil painting as a wedding gift (wedding was 6 months ago :). The recipients are patient, but stillÖIím painting on a gessoíd board, using water soluble oils. In particular, I am using the water soluble Artisan mediums from Windsor Newton. The final layer I am planning is the satin finish of Gamvar varnish. Iím at the stage of adding finishing touches of details. Issue #1: I had glazed in some shadows with the WN ďPainting Medium,Ē and itís taking forever to get past the tacky stage. #2. Iíve been using the Fast Drying version of that medium for other details. I am assuming Iíd better not put any of the fast drying stuff on top of the sticky glaze. Yes? Is it ok to do so once the glaze feels dry to the touch? #3. These later additions are much shinier than the rest of the painting, and Iím afraid things will still look uneven after my satin varnish. So, I think I need to oil out. I mostly have read of oiling out being done on canvas Ėbased paintings. Itís ok to do this on a board? #5. Of the water soluble media, what mixture would you recommend for the oiling out? Can you use fast drying medium for this? Would I dilute it? With WN thinner? Sorry for so many questions! Thanks, Cabbage Butterfly

Gigalot
12-08-2018, 10:10 AM
Gamvar isn't recommended by Gamblin's technical specialists for use with Water miscible oils. If your paint is tacky forever, then you can try Krylon Quick Dry spray to force drying processes.

Trikist
12-08-2018, 10:57 AM
I probably can not help. I once tried the W/N Painting Medium for oiling out as W/N recommended and it would not dry for months. After that, those few oils that I thought fit to frame, I went straight to multiple coats of Golden Spray Varnish - either satin or gloss. Gary

Trikist
12-08-2018, 11:29 AM
Usually I avoid trying to photo varnished paintings - a good idea. This morning I broke the rule. Here are two that I varnished without oiling out. Even tipping the paintings towards the light I did not notice any "sunken in" areas. (i did notice dust on the frames:angel: )

I think (no expert) that oiling out helps if you want to later remove the varnish. That is not something I worry about. Gary

8x10 Water miscible oils on panel
861530

9x12 water miscible oils on panel
861531

cabbagebutterfly
12-08-2018, 09:59 PM
Thanks, all, for your replies. I'm surprised that Gamvar isn't recommended for water-soluble oils, as I thought that once they dried the ws oil paint was then identical to "real" oil paint. I've already used Gamvar on another painting, as well as one made with, gasp, Shiva oil sticks, and in the short run (months), all is well. I also really liked the application properties of Gamvar, much easier to apply nicely than the WN water sol varnish.
Your responses inspired me to read a bit more about the WN Painting Medium, and it appears that it is naturally slow drying. Happily I've had some sunny days lately--and I hope the advice I'm reading on the warmth of the sun will help me get through this sticky problem. With thanks, Cabbage B

Millerhill
12-09-2018, 02:04 PM
I've used many different mediums with WMO paints...mostly Holbein Duo. They all worked just fine with different drying times of course. I think the trick to oiling out, regardless of the medium is to do it lightly and sparingly, and remove all excess oil with a soft lint free rag (t shirts work great). And as far as Gamvar varnish issues, I've used it recently and brushed it on like I would with acrylic varnish. NOT a good idea. I got a lot of streaking and it looked like crap. Why? Too much left on the surface. Luckily it was easily removed with Gamsol. I oiled out dull sections with Liquin and re-varnished with a mix of satin and gloss gamvar and all is well. Good luck with your painting! Steve

cabbagebutterfly
12-09-2018, 02:30 PM
Thanks for the tips, Steve and all. I'm going to experiment a bit on another painting i'm NOT intending as a wedding gift! to see how things work out at least in the short term.
Related to all of this is my puzzlement about the fat-over-lean principle. Most often it's mentioned in terms of drying time, that is it should be "slow over fast." But I've also been reading things that suggest that what this is really about is flexible over not. I'm wondering since I am trying to finish up my painting in an unfortunate hurry, if it's ok to put paints mixed with fast-drying medium over layers that are already very dry--have been laid down at least 6 mo ago? In my case, I'm working on board, so "flexible should be no issue, should it? Cabbage B.

DAK723
12-09-2018, 06:11 PM
Couple points: Although too late for your current project, I would recommend any other brand but Artisan and their mediums if you want to work with WMOs. Tackiness is an issue that comes up frequently with that brand. Keep in mind that tacky does not necessarily mean the layer is not dry.

Gamblin doesn't recommend using Gamvar only because they can't guarantee that it can be properly removed (if I remember correctly). People who have used it and removed have not had any more issues than when doing the same with traditional oils, so i wouldn't worry. If you are like 95% of us, you will never remove the varnish layer anyway.

Yes, if your current layers are sufficiently dry, then you need not worry about fat over lean. It is usually within the first couple weeks that the drying "curves" of the different layers may differ enough to cause issues. The fingernail test is often referred to in the case of fat over lean - if you can't dent the paint layer with your fingernail, then it is dry enough not to worry about fat over lean.

Hope this helps,

Don

cabbagebutterfly
12-09-2018, 06:21 PM
Thanks, Don, what you say about Gamvar and fat-over-lean makes a lot of sense. Also, "Tackiness is an issue that comes up frequently with that brand." AHA. " Keep in mind that tacky does not necessarily mean the layer is not dry." Wow, that's interesting. Nevertheless, I will try to let the area where I have that tacky glaze dry as much as possible. BTW, One of the reasons I turned to Gamvar is because of an issue I had with the first bottle of WN water-miscible varnish I bought, some years ago. It yellowed the first, and only, painting I put it on. Not just a little yellow-ISH, but SERIOUSLY yellow. WN couldn't explain it. I tried a fresh bottle and just stroked it on a test canvas board, no problem. But I am wary. The other brands of ws mediums are not as readily available as WN. Many thanks, a rather reassured Cabbage Butterly

sidbledsoe
12-09-2018, 11:31 PM
Gamblin doesn't recommend using Gamvar only because they can't guarantee that it can be properly removed (if I remember correctly). People who have used it and removed have not had any more issues than when doing the same with traditional oils, so i wouldn't worry. If you are like 95% of us, you will never remove the varnish layer anyway.

What Gamblin is really saying here is that WMO paints remain soluble, regardless of what varnish is used, because Gamvar would have no effect on the paint, and no more than any other varnish you may choose to use.
I have tested some regular oil paintings that were soluble in solvent, and some WMO paintings that were not soluble, which makes me not believe in this particular claim by Gamblin.

Gigalot
12-10-2018, 01:36 AM
which makes me not believe in this particular claim by Gamblin.
To start your own adventure with Gamvar and WMO, Sid! :wave: