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armada_setyadi
12-03-2018, 07:42 AM
Can I fix my pencil marks using thin coat of gesso? I'm thinking of spraying the gesso instead of using rollerhead or brush though, so I don't smudge the pencil. I'm asking because I think the majority of people use workable fixative or just using waterproof marker. Well I'm not a fan of using maker (have had bad experience, the marker shows through the oil painting when it dries. Weird) and I have never used fixative plus it's expensive for me.


Thank you for the suggestion.

sidbledsoe
12-03-2018, 07:50 AM
Yes you can.

TomMather
12-03-2018, 08:30 AM
There have been discussions about this here in the past, and if I recall correctly, there are oil-based pencils that won’t bleed through paintings. Graphite pencils can bleed through lighter colors. Personally, I “sketch” my paintings with a brush using ultramarine blue or burnt umber thinned with OMS, but that might not be detailed enough for you.

budigart
12-03-2018, 09:04 AM
Use a medium to hard charcoal pencil. Go over your pencil lines with a bit of pressure behind your work. Then, erase using a kneaded erasure. A fairly solid image will remain. Then, paint. Works every time, and eliminates those pesky pencil lines that come back later to haunt you.


Or, the technique I use . . . with a fairly fine brush, go over your pencil lines with raw umber. Let dry, and paint.

AllisonR
12-03-2018, 09:57 AM
I don't do it, but yes you can. Cesar Santos applies a thin gesso over his sketch to keep it from migrating; he discusses it in one of his youtube videos.

armada_setyadi
12-03-2018, 12:21 PM
Thank you for the inputs. The paint over with umber seems a good idea!

Cesar Santos? The one who sells video tutorial? I didn't know that he has youtube channel though. Definitely will check him!

Ron Francis
12-03-2018, 04:21 PM
There have been discussions about this here in the past, and if I recall correctly, there are oil-based pencils that won’t bleed through paintings. Graphite pencils can bleed through lighter colors. Personally, I “sketch” my paintings with a brush using ultramarine blue or burnt umber thinned with OMS, but that might not be detailed enough for you.
Graphite doesn't migrate (bleed?) through oil paint. It is a common myth that won't go away.

Graphite will mix with oil paint as you're painting over it, changing it's colour in the same way charcoal mixes with paint.

Or, you will be able to see it through the paint as it becomes more transparent with age. But this will happen with any dark mark under oil paint, no matter what medium it is.

Can I fix my pencil marks using thin coat of gesso? I'm thinking of spraying the gesso instead of using rollerhead or brush though, so I don't smudge the pencil. I'm asking because I think the majority of people use workable fixative or just using waterproof marker. Well I'm not a fan of using maker (have had bad experience, the marker shows through the oil painting when it dries. Weird) and I have never used fixative plus it's expensive for me.
If you have drawn heavily on the canvas, then the best thing you can do is remove most of it off to leave a ghost image.
A dark shaded drawing would probably be the worst thing you could do.
The problem is, all the loose particles can effect adhesion.
Some say that painting over with oil will bind the particles, but if you consider how much mulling it takes to bind pigment in oil, you can see that just painting over loose particles isn't going to be all that effective.

Painting over with an acrylic ground would be much the same as oil.
However, if your drawing is light, then any weakness will be greatly reduced.
Conservators say that a very thin coat of fixative should be all right, although I would be more inclined to use an acrylic ground as you wouldn't be introducing another material into the layers.

Drawing with light thin lines is I recommend.

kentiessen
12-04-2018, 07:48 AM
Your thin coat of gesso would be fine. Charcoal would be a much better drawing medium. In any case, the graphite drawing should be only a light line without shading or smudging. You should know that graphite is used as a dry lubricant, and so will contribute to adhesion issues.

armada_setyadi
12-04-2018, 08:13 AM
Thank you for the charcoal reminder.. Indeed I have charcoal pencil and vine stick. I will definitely use those..

contumacious
12-05-2018, 09:50 PM
If you want your drawing more visible you can use clear gesso, matte acrylic medium or matte alkyd medium in place of regular gesso. All three of them will tend to be less absorbent than regular acrylic gesso, which I prefer, but you might not. By choosing a matte material you are giving it more tooth than a gloss medium for a better bond. Matte alkyd medium will give you the added bonding oil on oil gives in addition to the mechanical bond you get with matte acrylic grounds.

You might like drawing with various colored pastel pencils or sticks or oil based Polychromos colored pencils which are my personal favorite drawing material for oil paintings. You can choose colors that won't contaminate your oils as readily as charcoal or graphite pencils.

At least one artist here in WC, user name DCam, will work up a fairly detailed and shaded drawing then seal that to continue on with paint. It works well for him and he ends up with some excellent work in my view. I will see if I can find a link to one of them.

DebWDC
12-06-2018, 11:28 AM
How I use pencils on painting surfaces:
1. First, I usually do several thumbnail sketches with separate paper and pencil to figure out values and composition before starting on the actual painting surface. This greatly reduces the number of corrections I have to make in the painting.
2. Then, I use an ordinary B2 pencil to draw the composition on the painting surface, using a few grid lines. I use the pencil for outlines of objects and edges, not shading.
3. After I am satisfied with the composition, I will erase with a kneaded eraser the lines to make them a little lighter in value. I will dust off the painting surface and I am now ready to paint.
4. I do NOT seal the surface before painting.

My results:
I have not experienced the graphite moving, bleeding through, or anything else unproductive. I have not experienced any delamination. From examining paintings I did over 40 years ago, I see that my paintings have not experienced any harm from this practice.

My suggestion to you:
Figure out your process and technique problems before you start on the desired painting. Do several throw away practice paintings, using different types and amounts of graphite or other pencils, to map the composition. Cover with different amounts and types of white or other semi-transparent oil paint. Let them dry. Examine in a year or so and see what you think. I use inexpensive oil paint paper canva-pads for these types of experiments. Find out what works best for you.

Regarding lubricant properties of graphite:
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-graphite-and-graphite-powder
Graphite and it’s powder are indeed the same chemical, but the difference in particle size can have a few interesting effects. Powdered graphite makes a great lubricant (think soap box derby cars in the boy scouts), whereas a solid chunk of graphite (like a pencil “lead”) is really not. Also, a solid piece of graphite is a better conductor than the powdered counterpart because the graphite forms into a lattice with layers for electrons to ride along very efficiently, thus being very conductive. The powdered graphite would just cause more breaks in this lattice, and would inhibit the flow of electricity. Also, depending on how well you powder it, it won’t even be graphite anymore, it will just be loose carbon. Loose carbon is not conductive.

Deb

Gigalot
12-06-2018, 01:13 PM
Use Schneider Maxx 290 White board marker or equal Whiteboard stuff. It is non-migratory marker.

E.Culver
12-07-2018, 09:29 PM
I usually use softer graphite pencil as the under drawings, I always build my layers up so eventually no canvas is visible. Usually my first 2 layers are pretty thinned down and that helps to dissolve and blend in the graphite. Never had a problem with adhesion issues or anything bleeding through.
Recently tried charcoal, but it dissipated too quickly for my taste once I started painting.