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DickHutchings
11-29-2018, 01:18 PM
After not being pleased with the drying time of my painting, I decided I needed to do something or quit oils all together. I watched a few videos of artists using it, and to me, it looks fantastic! I'm pretty sure there are some haters on this forum but I need to find out for myself. 55% off at AC-Moore so I bought the large bottle.

RomanB
11-29-2018, 02:07 PM
Liquin dries fast because it contains Cobalt Carboxylate as dryer and 2 Butanone Oxyme as anti-skinning agent. So, if you wanted to achieve faster drying, you just needed a drying agent.

savras
11-29-2018, 02:37 PM
it looks fantastic!
And it smells awful. If you are sensitive to smells (like me) you will be very dissapointed because Liquin has strong petroleum odor.

Pinguino
11-29-2018, 02:49 PM
Liquin dries fast because it contains Cobalt Carboxylate as dryer and 2 Butanone Oxyme as anti-skinning agent. So, if you wanted to achieve faster drying, you just needed a drying agent.

Instead of an Alkyd medium, I add a drying agent when necessary. The CoZiCa product works well for me. Understand that I do not do impasto; I paint very thinly, on gessobord (not canvas).

Since I do not paint continuously, but in spurts using a portable kit, I do this: On the palette, I add some CoZiCa (using toothpicks) to white, and to any inexpensive nearly-opaque colors (such as Yellow Ochre) that I may happen to need. I also place a glop of Gamblin's "Solvent-Free Gel" with CoZiCa added. The gel comes in a tube and has the consistency of paint.

However, I do not add CoZiCa to any colors that will not be used as mass tones. In general, these are the more expensive, transparent colors.

Then, the few colors with siccative will be usable for a few hours. The others will be usable up to a couple of days, if I keep the palette cool and dark between short sessions. In other words, the wasted paint (if I do not use it quickly) is the cheap paint, not the expensive paint.

If I need to glaze, I'll mix some gel with the glazing color, which both dilutes the color and adds the siccative.

DebWDC
11-29-2018, 02:51 PM
I think liquin itself is a better choice than separately adding dryers to one's medium. Reasons:
1. The amount of dryer as a percentage of the liquin medium is already calculated by the manufacturers, so one is protected from making a mistake with adding too much the dryer directly. Most of us on Wetcanvas are non-professional painters, and do not have decades of observation about materials (which Sid B and others do have), so it is easy to make mistakes. Liquin contains less than 2% dryers, according to the current MSDS sheet. This is a very small amount and easily controlled by the painter.
2. Liquin is an alkyd-based medium, which MAY (probably likely) adds beneficial flexibility to the paint layer; dryers alone, especially if one adds too much, likely detract from flexibility of the dried paint layer. My source of information about the benefits of modern alkyds comes from various conservation publications, not the manfacturers.

PS - I have read that it is possible to purchase an alkyd-like medium without driers; this is Natural Pigments' epoxide oil. I suspect there are other sources of this as well, but NP's is the only one I know of. Hope this helps.
PSS - yes liquin stinks but I think it is worth it. Ventilate your workspace and keep the cap on the bottle unless you are actually getting liquin out. Deb

Humbaba
11-29-2018, 03:01 PM
I frankly do not understand why people have so many issues with the drying time of oils. I use mostly Winton, Pebeo, Grumbacher and Van Gogh Oils with no issues beyond 2-3 days.

I guess that living in the Caribbean makes a lot of difference.

contumacious
11-29-2018, 03:17 PM
After not being pleased with the drying time of my painting, I decided I needed to do something or quit oils all together. I watched a few videos of artists using it, and to me, it looks fantastic! I'm pretty sure there are some haters on this forum but I need to find out for myself. 55% off at AC-Moore so I bought the large bottle.

You might enjoy doing some testing of various paints with the Liquin. To eliminate impact from an absorbent ground, work on a sealed surface such as an oil ground or an acrylic ground sealed with matte acrylic medium.

With some colors a small drop will be enough to have it dry to the touch the next day. Others will require more such as Perm. Aliz. Crimzon. As you use it you may find that too much will make your mixes start to tack up on the palette too quickly. With practice you should find just the right amount for each color to achieve what you want.

DickHutchings
11-29-2018, 03:26 PM
Humbaba, maybe I should move to the Caribbean but 2 or 3 days is more than I want to wait. I want to paint on a dry surface the next morning before I'm off to work.

Deb, keeping it simple is for me, thank you. I really don't want to figure all this out like I'm some kind of chemist.

savras, I'm not bothered by odors at all, now my wife on the other hand... I'll keep the lid on it. I may have to move back out to the cold breezeway :-)

RomanB, drying agent? Isn''t that what Liquin is?

DebWDC
11-29-2018, 03:27 PM
Re drying times: I have lived in different parts of the US, and the drying times were greatly affected by temperature and humidity. So, the same oil paints which dry in 3 days here in Phoenix AZ took up to 5 weeks in the winter in Flagstaff AZ and 2 weeks in coastal Virginia. The original poster lives in the coastal NE of the United States, and I sympathize with the long drying times.

Too long drying time was the reason I started using Liquin 30 years ago.

MrsSellers
11-29-2018, 03:32 PM
And it smells awful. If you are sensitive to smells (like me) you will be very dissapointed because Liquin has strong petroleum odor.

Can someone please remind me...does Galkyd smell as bad as Liquin? I don't remember anymore.

sidbledsoe
11-29-2018, 04:43 PM
Years ago, Liquin used to smell awful, nowadays it is a lot better, I can tolerate it now, I would say no. Galkyd does not smell as much as Liquin.

RomanB
11-29-2018, 05:28 PM
RomanB, drying agent? Isn''t that what Liquin is?

No, Liquin is an alkyd binder with added solvent and a little of drying agent since alkyds do not dry as usual artist's oil. But you can buy and mix all components separately, for example there are: lead-based black oil (https://www.naturalpigments.com/dark-drying-oil-black-oil.html), cobalt-zirconium (https://www.naturalpigments.com/cobalt-system-drier-2-fl-oz.html), cobalt (https://www.naturalpigments.com/cobalt-drier-2-fl-oz.html), zirconium (https://www.naturalpigments.com/zirconium-drier-2-fl-oz.html), calcium (https://www.naturalpigments.com/calcium-drier-2-fl-oz.html) driers.

The classic way was to use Lead White as the main white pigment and Black Oil with non-reactive pigments which dry slowly such as carbon blacks or lakes. Unfortunately, lead compounds are toxic and demand painters to be careful if they still want to use them. In some countries it is hard to get lead based pigments and other compounds. However, there are other solutions and if you need only drying speed, it isn't necessary to use alkyd resin which has added driers (Cobalt drier in case of Liquin). It is a great medium, but it is more than just a mean to accelerate drying.

Pinguino
11-29-2018, 07:44 PM
1. Liquin isn't just a "drying agent" as such. Rather it is a medium that contains a drying agent. On the other hand, CoZiCa is only a drying agent, with enough other stuff added so that it can be measured and mixed. You can use Liquin to make a glaze (may or may not be best for this purpose). You cannot use CoZiCa to make a glaze, but you can add it to a glaze.

2. This may or may not be useful to you: At this time of year, where I live is generally cool and damp. Even indoors is not that warm, due to energy-saver heating. I paint only on 5"x7" gessobord. Recently I obtained a mini-size electric heating pad, the kind used to treat small muscle aches. I can place the gessobord atop the heating pad (with a paper towel to prevent stain), and it will emulate being in a much warmer room. That doesn't speed up drying, so much as prevent the time from extending too long due to chill. If I really want a faster drying time, I will also use a siccative (CoZiCa). A standard-size heating pad is 12"x24", and I've seen an extra-wide size at 20"24". Doubt if this is a good idea for canvas. Note that heating pads have a timed shutoff, so I need to re-start it from time to time.

TomMather
11-29-2018, 10:11 PM
I used Liquin for years and the smell never bothered me. It greatly hastens drying time, which is why I started using it. However, I had problems with Liquin drying up in the bottle before I used it all, so I quit buying larger bottles of it. I later switched to Galkyd because it was less expensive and came in varying thicknesses. Now I use Gamblinís solvent free medium, which makes paints dry just about as quickly as alkyds but is presumably safer to use.

Some painters like the slow drying of traditional oil paints and mediums, such as linseed or walnut oil. Personally, I paint rather fast and get very frustrated having to wait 3-7 days or more for paints to dry enough to add another layer. With Galkyd or Gamblin solvent free medium, I can paint additional layers after 1-2 days at most. The last painting I did using linseed oil, I had to wait about a week before I could add additional layers.

Gigalot
11-30-2018, 08:56 AM
You can also try Synvar or Soluvar, they are mineral spirit based acrylic varnishes, proposed to use as non-yellowish, crystal clear painting mediums. :)

DickHutchings
11-30-2018, 09:06 AM
I must just love the smell of toxic waste. I opened the bottle just to smell it and thought, that's not bad at all. My painting is finally dry so I'll give it a try over the weekend and report back.

I should say, I'm not only interested in drying time, thinning and making my paint flow better is also a desire. I won't be trying any other chemicals until I've given Liquin a real good try.

Gigalot
11-30-2018, 09:45 AM
I should say, I'm not only interested in drying time, thinning and making my paint flow better is also a desire. I won't be trying any other chemicals until I've given Liquin a real good try.
I use acrylic solvent varnish for better color purity and flexibility of dried paint layers. Liquin is alkyd and therefore, gives some degree of yellowing and brittleness over time.

Raffless
11-30-2018, 10:20 AM
I must just love the smell of toxic waste. I opened the bottle just to smell it and thought, that's not bad at all. My painting is finally dry so I'll give it a try over the weekend and report back.

I should say, I'm not only interested in drying time, thinning and making my paint flow better is also a desire. I won't be trying any other chemicals until I've given Liquin a real good try.

Dick use it sparingly. As with all mediums they have a detrimental effect on the paint. But it does what it says on the tin.

DickHutchings
11-30-2018, 10:25 AM
I'll try but most likely I'll find myself going overboard at first. Thanks for the tip.

WFMartin
11-30-2018, 03:54 PM
I frankly do not understand why people have so many issues with the drying time of oils. I use mostly Winton, Pebeo, Grumbacher and Van Gogh Oils with no issues beyond 2-3 days.

I guess that living in the Caribbean makes a lot of difference.

Yeah, I totally agree with these statements. But, like you, I live in a relatively "warm" climate. If one wants a medium that dries in fast time, just opt for acrylics, or for watercolor. And, if one merely wants their oils to dry a tad faster, just use Distilled Spirits of Gum Turpentine, mixed with one, or two parts of Linseed Oil. That combination will dry super-fast, compared to using Odorless Mineral Spirits, while creating a very durable, and predictable paint film.

Really, if one is willing to withstand the smell of Liquin just to achieve faster drying, one may just as well use Turpentine to achieve the same (or better) drying characteristics and drying speed.

DickHutchings
11-30-2018, 04:14 PM
If one wants a medium that dries in fast time, just opt for acrylics, or for watercolor.

I'm not wanting my paint to dry immediately like acrylics and watercolor. I want to paint with oil so that I can paint smoother and get better blends. I just want to start with a dry canvas the next day.

Maybe I should find a way to store 2 or 3 paintings and just work on the one that's dry. After I try Liquin that is:)

Richard P
11-30-2018, 06:11 PM
Golden OPEN paints will dry after an hour or so. Is that enough time for you?

If not then I'd look at fast drying pigments and dryers.

sidbledsoe
11-30-2018, 10:26 PM
Dick, don't pay any attention to those Liquin tickets you got from the alkyd police squad here, Liquin is an extremely good medium, smooth and silky, thixotropic, perfect drying, improves the paint film, and really does smell pretty good, much better than turpentine or that God awful devil's vomit stench of spike.

contumacious
11-30-2018, 11:04 PM
Dick, don't pay any attention to those Liquin tickets you got from the alkyd police squad here, Liquin is an extremely good medium, smooth and silky, thixotropic, perfect drying, improves the paint film, and really does smell pretty good, much better than turpentine or that God awful devil's vomit stench of spike.

Very well said and extremely funny as well! Thanks for the "real" LOL.

sidbledsoe
12-01-2018, 07:49 AM
lol, yes those who can't even begin to understand why some want faster drying are doomed to repeat trying to stamp out alkyds.

MrsSellers
12-01-2018, 12:57 PM
I also place a glop of Gamblin's "Solvent-Free Gel" with CoZiCa added.

What is the safe quantity of Cozica to use with mediums? I haven't been able to find this information on their website.

Pinguino
12-01-2018, 02:47 PM
What is the safe quantity of Cozica to use with mediums? I haven't been able to find this information on their website.

EcoHouse (manufacturers of CoZiCa) doesn't say, but I gather that the product (siccatives dissolved in other stuff) is formulated to have about the same strength as "other brands" in this category.

Searching around, I find that for siccatives in general, the quantity should be no more than about 5 drops per 2.5oz medium, or 50 drops per 16oz pint of medium (note that these are not equivalent). CoZiCa comes in a dropper bottle. But I cannot see why anyone would prepare more than a tiny quantity of medium, unless working all at once on a very large canvas.

I work with very small quantities. I wet the end of a wooden tootpick with CoZiCa then directly mix it into "small nut" of a few colors such as white and clear gel. So, this is not precise.

In any case, only a smidgen is used. When I want the paint to cure, I put it in a warm area (even sunlight, since I use color-fast paints). A tiny bit of CoZiCa, plus a heap of warmth, is most effective, and beats just using one or the other.

Lon Reams
12-02-2018, 06:25 PM
I must just love the smell of toxic waste. I opened the bottle just to smell it and thought, that's not bad at all. My painting is finally dry so I'll give it a try over the weekend and report back.

I should say, I'm not only interested in drying time, thinning and making my paint flow better is also a desire. I won't be trying any other chemicals until I've given Liquin a real good try.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't mind the smell of Liquin! 😀 I just thought I must be weird.

I use it in nearly all of my paintings at some point. It's great in foliage that has many progressive layers of brightness. I'm usually able to go over things with another layer as soon as it tacks up a bit, normally within an hour.

And I really like using it for thin glazes over a dry surface. Excellent for subtle shading.

sidbledsoe
12-02-2018, 06:56 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't mind the smell of Liquin! 😀 I just thought I must be weird.
I really like the smell of modern Liquin too, but that does not ensure anything regarding your level of weirdness!:D

like I mentioned earlier, they use to make Liquin with a heavy petroleum like smell, I have one old bottle and it is wicked, however, the new formulation is not bad at all.

Gigalot
12-03-2018, 04:24 AM
Anyway, the Alkyd formulation needs more powerful solvent than OMS. OMS is not useful ingredient to manufacture varnishes and Alkyds. However, more powerful solvents mixture will have stronger smell, than odorless, but poor solvent like OMS. :crying: So, use Liquin, Galkyd, Synvar or Soluvar; Dammar and turp or go to Acrylic water mediums. :evil: :wave: Do publishing MSDS Sheets and toxicologysts review for us. Publish about Dammar victims and turpentine damaged, broken health guys stories "How I lost my health due to oil painting process" :clear: :eek:

DickHutchings
12-03-2018, 05:38 AM
Here are my thoughts as a new liquin user. There is no odor, if there were my wife would let me know. It makes my paint flow nicely and I can glaze with it and make nice thin lines if I want. Its touch dry in hours, not minutes so I can paint wet on wet for a while.

The only drawback for me is the mixed paint on the pallet hardens so I have to use a new pallet sheet or scrape it off. It doesnt scrape off pallet sheets too well. The paints that I put along the edges are still un contaminated so I just scoop them on to the next sheet if I want a clean pallet.

So far, I'm a fan.

sidbledsoe
12-03-2018, 07:39 AM
Dick, if it dries too fast for your liking then you can also slow things down and mix it with some oil and OMS to reduce it.

DickHutchings
12-03-2018, 09:02 AM
Thanks Sid, so far that hasn't been a problem.

MrsSellers
12-04-2018, 12:48 AM
Does Liquin "melt"? I have an old bottle that is just about used up and it is the consistency of runny syrup with no thixotropic quality left. It is the only bottle I've ever bought so have no frame of reference.

E.Culver
12-09-2018, 11:30 AM
I love Liquin, especially the fine detail more runny version. Just discovered it 3 or 4 years ago and can finally continue painting without waiting a day or two or three between layers. I started putting it in different containers with tight sealing screw on lids with minimal air pockets to preserve it better after having some dry out.

Millerhill
12-09-2018, 01:52 PM
I've been using Liquin (original) for a few months now and was originally using it as a medium to aid drying but have come to realize that it's real value (for me anyway) is as a transparency/glazing medium. It works fantastic for that. If I'm working on finer details and layering them I now use the Liquin Fine Detail medium and really love it. Combined with the WN Griffin Alkyd paints I can count on my layers to dry very quickly indeed.

Steve

Freesail
12-09-2018, 08:02 PM
Liquid seems to give my painting almost a mat finish. Currently I'm using pale oil with a touch of OMS. It dries to touch by the next day here in the north east.

WFMartin
12-10-2018, 11:37 AM
Can someone please remind me...does Galkyd smell as bad as Liquin? I don't remember anymore.

Yeah,.....I've used them both. One smells like Kerosene, the other smells like Gasoline. Actually, not much difference between the two, in terms of smell.

Pinguino
12-10-2018, 12:56 PM
Yeah,.....I've used them both. One smells like Kerosene, the other smells like Gasoline. Actually, not much difference between the two, in terms of smell.

Gosh, I haven't sniffed solvents since the hippie era. :lol:

Meanwhile... The smell of alkyd paints is not necessarily caused by solvents, although that is a possibility. As the paint dries by having its molecules snipped apart and cross-linked, a certain amount of volatile, small molecules escape. The smelly molecules released by non-alkyd oils are familiar to us as a natural rancid odor, but the smelly molecules released by alkyds (depending on formulation) may have a more "chemical" odor.

WFMartin
12-11-2018, 04:06 PM
Gosh, I haven't sniffed solvents since the hippie era. :lol:

Meanwhile... The smell of alkyd paints is not necessarily caused by solvents, although that is a possibility. As the paint dries by having its molecules snipped apart and cross-linked, a certain amount of volatile, small molecules escape. The smelly molecules released by non-alkyd oils are familiar to us as a natural rancid odor, but the smelly molecules released by alkyds (depending on formulation) may have a more "chemical" odor.

For some reason, the makers of alkyd mediums seem to have some basic aversion to indicating the actual ingredients of the material on the label. However, the one ingredient that they do indicate on their labels is "Contains Petroleum Distillates". And, of all the ingredients, that one would be the least likely to go unnoticed, because of their identifiable smell. Oh, alkyd mediums contain solvent, alright. That seems to be quite apparent.

Nowhere do the alkyd mediums indicate exactly what sort of oil they have employed in their manufacture, and some users seem to bounce around speculating whether that oil is Linseed, or Soybean Oil, as it is not listed anywhere on the labels.

My problem with alkyd mediums is one that doesn't even seem to be an issue with those who enjoy using them. Being the layer-er, and glazer that I am, I enjoy a medium that keeps my palette of paint open (wet) for generally an entire day, without becoming tacky, sticky, gummy, and draggy. When I used alkyd mediums that is exactly what they did--becoming increasingly difficult to handle from the moment they hit my palette.

I found it nearly impossible to glaze with an item such as Liquin, or Galkyd, because of this premature "tacking up". Now, while that characteristic drove me quite nuts, while using it, there seem to be some (those who are commenting favorably about Liquin on this thread) who find that characteristic either unimportant, or even preferable to one that remains workable for many hours. For example, Dick Hutchings indicates that he doesn't mind being required to pitch his paint palette after a few hours, and starting over with fresh paint. That is his choice, and he seems very pleased to do that.

So, while those of us who prefer painting mediums with more traditional materials as ingredients, I can rather understand the goals of those who don't.

However, in my experience, while alkyd materials quickly tacked up, becoming sticky, and draggy on my palette, and causing me to lose control of handling of my paint during the session, I didn't really experience much actual "faster drying" once the paint was on the canvas. With not much actual faster drying, and a great deal of inconvenience for me on my palette during the actual operation of painting, I put alkyds (paints, and medium) into a sort of pigeonhole of "not to be considered".

Those of you who enjoy using alkyd materials should also be mindful of those of us who have difficulty with them, to the extent that some of us can hardly imagine what the draw, or fascination seems to be for those who actually find alkyds to be an appropriate working medium.

Like many others who have expressed their opinions on this thread, I, too, couldn't care less what anything "smells like", or even how toxic it may be percrived. My goal with any oil painting medium is for it to perform precisely as I want it to perform, while creating a durable, archival painted product in the process.

DickHutchings
12-11-2018, 04:22 PM
Bill, when I'm retired and can put 4 to 8 hours a day into painting, then I'll probably learn to hate Liquin. I plan to follow most all of your instruction at that time because I regard you as one of the best to emulate. For now, I paint for 1/2 an hour to a couple at most. I don't put Liquin in every pile of paint, just what I've mixed.

Now that I say it out loud I'm wondering why the drying time matters to me at all. If I had a separate place to paint, I'd be using turpentine and linseed oil and enjoying the smell. I am not the boss :-)

WFMartin
12-11-2018, 05:12 PM
Bill, when I'm retired and can put 4 to 8 hours a day into painting, then I'll probably learn to hate Liquin. I plan to follow most all of your instruction at that time because I regard you as one of the best to emulate. For now, I paint for 1/2 an hour to a couple at most. I don't put Liquin in every pile of paint, just what I've mixed.

Now that I say it out loud I'm wondering why the drying time matters to me at all. If I had a separate place to paint, I'd be using turpentine and linseed oil and enjoying the smell. I am not the boss :-)

Hahaha....Yeah, I know the feeling! And, thank you for the wonderful comments of which I am not worthy!:)

And, as some may have mentioned already, to avoid slow drying rate problems, I get along fine by keeping several paintings in progress at any given time. That way I always have a dry surface. I could easily have a dry surface upon which to apply further paint by keeping only 2 painting in progress, I think.:)

Just for your information, a painter acquaintance of mine is one of the most phenomenal flower, and landscape painter of skies in the Phoenix area. Lauren Knode. She buys Liquin by the gallon, and "sloshes" it all over her paintings, using it as a medium, a varnish, and a little as deodorant, too, probably!:lol: :lol:

I don't know how she does it, but she surely does! I could not paint a sky by using an alkyd. But she does, so more power to her. She sells a heckuva lot more of her work than I do mine.:D

Pinguino
12-11-2018, 10:32 PM
Being the layer-er, and glazer that I am, I enjoy a medium that keeps my palette of paint open (wet) for generally an entire day, without becoming tacky, sticky, gummy, and draggy. When I used alkyd mediums that is exactly what they did--becoming increasingly difficult to handle from the moment they hit my palette. ...

I am trying to learn in a paint style that uses layers and glazes. I don't use any solvent in medium, and don't use any medium (such as alkyds) that contain solvent. Instead, I use Gamblin's solvent-free gel or liquid; I suppose I could also just use oil. The Gamblin products contain a tiny amount of alkyd but are otherwise a slower-drying oil, no solvent, so they don't behave like Liquin or Galkyd. That is, they do not begin to tack quickly. To improve drying, I add a tiny touch of siccative (CoZiCa) which will affect properties over a period of a few hours, but certainly not immediately. Of course, I only use small canvas size, so I don't have the problem of working on one area while an earlier-painted area begins to cure.

I tried some of M. Graham's Walnut Alkyd awhile back (acquired a dollop of it from a friend). As I recall, it has no solvent and behaves more like Gamblin's solvent-free fluid than like Galkyd. But I may mis-recall.

margeryj
04-10-2019, 11:58 AM
I like Liquin's characteristics a lot, and I think it still smells horrid. But when I buy a bottle of Liquin Original, I pour some into empty paint tubes. When I want some I can dab just a bit onto my palette as needed and there is far less odor than from a cup or puddle. I also waste very little of it.

Gigalot
04-10-2019, 01:30 PM
Years ago, Liquin used to smell awful, nowadays it is a lot better
:lol: :lol:
Yeah,.....I've used them both. One smells like Kerosene, the other smells like Gasoline. Actually, not much difference between the two, in terms of smell.
:clap: :lol: :thumbsup:

WFMartin
04-10-2019, 05:32 PM
Sorry, I mistakenly responded to something on which I had already commented.:o