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idahogirl
11-03-2003, 07:43 PM
I have had a little classical training at Mission Renaissance in Southern California but we kind of whizzed by glazing. I have tried a few on my own and something isn't right. What happens is that I get a fairly decent tonal underpainting in shades of grey but when I start glazing, it is drab and looks like I am coloring a black and white photograph. I drool over the beautifully glazed paintings I see at the museums and wonder how they did it. Is it multiple glazes???

Thanks for your help.

Dee

arlene
11-03-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by deefox
Is it multiple glazes???

Thanks for your help.

Dee

I'm not an oil painter, but would tend to think since doing acrylics that you answered your own question...someone want to back me up or call me on the carpet.

loop
11-04-2003, 10:57 AM
hi.. I think the biggest mystery to glazing is just where and when to use it. I used to think you could just glaze over a monochrome underpainting, but I found, as you have, it does not look right. I belive the trick is to not just restrict yourself to glazing just because you did an underpainting, you still NEED opaque applications of paint as well as glazes and scumbles, and definately if you are going to glaze many THIN layers are needed to get the "oh wow" results you see in the old masters work

some only use a glaze when everything is just about done to adjust a tone or color , or even glaze the entire painting with a single color to unify the painting and make it all appear to be in the same picture, some use to build depth of the darks, and even a couple of old masters used it for color mixing , i.e. a blue glaze over yellow color makes green, I hear that is the most difficult way to use a glaze

idahogirl
11-04-2003, 12:58 PM
Loop,.

Thanks, it's good to know it's not just me. One has to start thinking like a watercolorist!

Thanks again,

Dee

pampe
11-04-2003, 03:40 PM
hehe

but not really...I have just started oils and my watercolor background is hurting....I keep trying to use glazes....and the results are NOT the same:rolleyes:

loop....I think the idea of a glaze to unuify is wonderful.....would you think a neutral color??

and how thin a glaze......

I find if it is too thin...it just separates.....I do think you can successfully glaze over a grissaile.....but I surely can't yet

YLCIA
11-04-2003, 03:53 PM
I am working with oils only for 3 month and now trying the glazing and... it takes forever! As I have to wait for each layer to dry but ... I am trying:eek: :)

In acrylic it is much easier as layers dry almost immediately:)I start wondering if to leave the glazing just for my acrylic's works.

But like Dee I just drool over glazed oil paintings:D

In acrylics I use glazing when painting the water to give it depth but on others to unify the colors:)

Julia

loop
11-04-2003, 04:09 PM
I never could get watercolors to do anything besides frustrate me so I cannot compare

to strictly glaze over an underpainting sort of implies that there would be no white except what shows through from the underpainting. I belive the master's of the past used it mainly for the darks and to build depth and then thick opaque paint for the lights, and then a glaze over that, then a scumble, then a glaze then some more thick, then some... you get the point as many layers as you like

to uinify, the color that would work best would depend on the painting, I used a burnt sienna once over the entire painting, rubbed some areas out for my lightest lights, and it helped bring everything together making it look like it was all in the same scene, where before it appeared like a bunch of "cut and paste" images

YLCIA I would add something to speed the drying I got sick of the wait 4 weeks between layers approach (I'm still actually working on it)

MrSpringGreen
11-04-2003, 07:26 PM
The thing to remember when glazing is that it always darkens the color..... the more glazes the darker it gets.
That's why I believe your need to determine why you want to glaze and the effects you are after.
I know Turner used glazes and I remember reading a story about one of his paintings where it was hung for the show....and it had beautiful colors.... then the day before the show he showed up with a mixture and proceeded to glaze a yellow over the whole painting. I do know that he used to carry a very small pallette and paints with him to the shows and he was caught a few times touching up some of his paintings...:)

Also, use very light colors for your glazes to try to keep the light in the painting.....
And sometimes use a glaze to affect a color... say a yellow glazed over a painted blue for a different green....

just food for thought....
Another nugget: use quick drying paints for your underpaint mixed with an alkyd medium(don't throw rocks at my head!), and then use an alkyd medium as your glazing medium. (for those of you who hate to wait.
:)

mona-K
11-04-2003, 09:06 PM
Hi:)
Glazing have been used and are used for different reasons, to create shade, a different tone of colour, to tone it down or to lighten an area, The old masters also used glazes to create colours they couldnt get other ways.
The masters of glaze built up paintings glaze after glaze, and it had to be dry first before u apply the next layer.
Also if the underpainting is sligthly dirty, the glaze will only make the errors, or dirt become even more visible to the eye.
Glazes are used over opaque underlayers mostly, both in colour and in monocrome.. mostly I would recomend coloured layer, or else it will take u forever to create the colour you want.
Also a problem with glaze is dust, dust particles get in the rich oiled areas wich takes a long time to dry.

heres a link about glazing, on a study of the old master vermeer.
Hope it helps:) http://girl-with-a-pearl-earring.20m.com/Girl_with_a_Pearl_Earring_Glazing.htm

ancelica

loop
11-05-2003, 11:17 AM
hey you ^ ^ :rolleyes: ^ ^ up there ^^ great link

Craig Houghton
11-06-2003, 01:00 AM
What happens is that I get a fairly decent tonal underpainting in shades of grey but when I start glazing, it is drab and looks like I am coloring a black and white photograph. I drool over the beautifully glazed paintings I see at the museums and wonder how they did it. Is it multiple glazes???

I noticed this at first, but that colored-over b&w effect doesn't last. As you keep adding transparent layers the colors become more and more rich in their own right, and they loose the drab but keep the values. On those kiwis I painted a while back I must have had 15 + layers in some spots.

Also, regarding lights, I'd read that it's a good idea to keep the key a bit high on the grisaille and count on the layer depth to lower the value. While I found they did darken a bit, the effect wasn't as profound as I expected. In the end I found that the grisaille should have been fairly true to my desired end-values.

As far as the light-lights go -- I only built up layered glazes where they were needed, and I left the lightest areas to a glaze or two. In the end though, I used some opaque hightlights, scumbling, and other such techniques along with the glazing.

-Craig

arlene
11-06-2003, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by pampe
hehe

but not really...I have just started oils and my watercolor background is hurting....I keep trying to use glazes....and the results are NOT the same:rolleyes:



I'm having the same problem switching from colored pencils to acrylics..

CarolChretien
11-06-2003, 07:18 AM
I always paint in thin layers using glazing.
I think it works well for me as I "block in" the areas of the piece in local colors as I start the painting.
I have used either stand oil or Liquin in the ubsequent layers.
The best example of this is my painting of Lizzie (Dalmatian) it is all glazing and I didn't lose any of the color as I went along but built on the under painting.

I will post the example in the next couple of posts....

CarolChretien
11-06-2003, 07:20 AM
then this layer continued...

CarolChretien
11-06-2003, 07:24 AM
Then a few more layerings until this result...but you can see the addition and adjustment of the layers of color I applied...

CarolChretien
11-06-2003, 08:01 AM
From the above...
You can really see the layering in the shadow on her back (the underpainting color comes through) and the colors surrounding her in the pillows and blankets.
The upper right corner of the room got toned down with several layers of different colored glazes too.

I have never tried an underpainting all in one color and then added glazes of transparent color over that...I have always started with a loose outline drawing to place the subject and shapes in the places they are going to be (sometimes in one color just for that step) then I do the block in with a wash of the "idea" of the colors I am aiming at.
Sometimes they change completely as I go...in that case I am using opaque colors along with subsequent glazes.

The different properties of the different colors help decide which is needing medium to help it along.

I don't know if this helped the discussion at all but it is what works well for me.:)

belladonna
11-07-2003, 06:50 AM
Keep the underpainting lighter than you want it to be when finished. Make sure the paint you use is transparent and go darker over light so that the underlayer will still show. You donít need any special mediums if you use transparent paint, but there are lots out there if you want to try them. You can use complements for great gray tones, or color over almost white areas or make your darks, darker and richer. Play with your paint and learn about your colors. Find out which ones are transparent and learn how they react over one and other. Here is a wonderful example of using complamentary transparent colors for glazing: (The artists mother, by Oírunge)

belladonna
11-07-2003, 07:00 AM
Here is one of mine. I used only transparent paints, with the exception of white. If fact, I have thrown away almost all my opaque paints because they don't work well for glazing. I used only transparent paint over white here. Even the background is multiple layers because I don't use black.

belladonna
11-07-2003, 07:12 AM
Here is a wonderful eg. from a W.C. thread started by JohnT. He used upwards of 35 layeres of paint for this one. Originally posted by JohnT
"I lay the actual items out using a purpose made cornered backdrop that I can alter for the light variations. You will not see any brush strokes as I paint very fine. It is a very prolonged process. Trying to keep the traditions of the 'Dutch Masters'. To bring out the translucence of the lemon, I use a white upon white base then layer upon layer (up to 35 layers). [/B] http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34231

arlene
11-07-2003, 11:49 AM
oh thanks bella! in cp i find it so easy to do, yet with acrylics it's definitely a drawn out learning process.

idahogirl
11-07-2003, 01:21 PM
Going shopping tomorrow. The reds and orange I have are cadmiums which are opaque. What should I look for for a transparent red and a transparent orange.

Thanks,

Dee

prairie painter
11-08-2003, 02:51 AM
In the W/S oils, cad orange is actually transparent, so is cad red pale. Guess that's another difference between them and traditional oils. Interesting!

earthy
11-08-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by prairie painter
In the W/S oils, cad orange is actually transparent, so is cad red pale. Guess that's another difference between them and traditional oils. Interesting!

Hello Mary :)
I have been trying to work with acrylics for a while, and the fast drying is not for me right now. My daughter talked me into trying them and I can see why some people love them, but they're qualities are not for me at this time. I've tried a few other mediums also, water color and color pencil. I like them, but they have their pros and cons like everything else. So now I want to try water soluble oils or traditional oils, and see how well I can work with them. :D

My question is about the transparent colors you mentioned. Do you know if that's true in all the w/s brands, or just certain ones? I've read some threads here on them and visited their websites, etc. I haven't decided which brand to try yet.

BTW- this is my first post in this forum, and I don't have any work posted anywhere yet! Slow as a turtles' pace for me! LOL :confused: :rolleyes: :D :p

Anybody's help/advice/knowledge will be appreciated always!! :)

Edited to say, I 'm still just a beginner in all that I've tried, but hope to get good at something some day!!

prairie painter
11-08-2003, 05:33 PM
Hi earthy-
I don't get much posted either, since my equipment/ ability to use equipment are both minimal (can't even begin to figure out digital cameras, even if I did own one!)
If you do a search, there are some fantastic threads about the w/s oils. But here's the upshot- most of the artisan line are transparent (I can break it down in a pm if you wish) and I love them. Don't know anything about the lukas w/s's (although Jerry's has a pretty good deal going on a trial set of them right now). In the van Gogh line, most are semiopaque or, at best, semitransparent. Again, there are exceptions. Most of Holbein's are opaque, too. With the grumbacher lines, I hear it varies a great deal.
I try not to verbalize how much I like the Artisan's- as long as folks are iffy about them I can still afford to buy them off ebay (though I was way outbid on the last lot I tried for- congrats to deefox!) :D

earthy
11-08-2003, 11:35 PM
Thank You Mary!!!
It sure is thoughtful of you to offer to pm about the transparent colors. I haven't decided on which brand or anything yet tho! I'm so glad I ran into your post while reading about glazing, cause I didn't know about the transparency issues being different with the
w/s's. That and your other comments about the other lines was a big help! I had thought about Holbein's, but maybe that opaqueness could mean additives, or chalkiness. (?) Hmmmmm..lots more reading to do and notes to take! Don't have any money to burn!! lol
Any pm's gratefully welcomed!!!

YLCIA
11-09-2003, 01:09 AM
Oh, Bella thank you for wonderful examples!!!!

Julia

idahogirl
11-09-2003, 12:52 PM
Went shopping yesterday and learned something that many of you probably already know. Gamblin lists the characteristics of their paint on the tube. I already had Indian Yellow,a lovely transparent yellow, and bought Perylene Red and Transparent Earth Orange (a color to DIE for) Thought you might like to know.

Dee

prairie painter
11-09-2003, 05:05 PM
I found this scribbled note, don't know where it came from, but I wrote, "transparent oil colors"- maybe this will help someone:
White, PW6 or PW4. Yellows, PY128 and PY110 and PY129. Reds, PR207 and PV19. Blues, PB29 and PB15:6 and PB15:4 and PV15 and PB27. Greens, PG24 and PG7.
earthy- I'll pm you with the artisan breakdown. Don't know why the others are opaque, but Holbein is a good quality, so I doubt it's chalkiness.

canvasjockey
11-10-2003, 01:13 AM
Great link, ancelica!!

I am kicking myself because I had a tube of Burnt Sienna acrylic that I threw away because it was transparent!! I had no clue about glazing (except that I thought it was only for oils) and I was used to an opaque Burnt Sienna (Liquitex). Now I can't even remember what brand the transparent one was (grrrr)!

Thanks everyone for all the input on glazing, it's nice to just scroll down and learn!

Carole

llis
11-23-2003, 07:25 PM
I'd love to see some more examples of work using transparent colors. Anyone have some they can share?

CarrieLLewis
09-26-2004, 10:53 PM
I'm coming to this thread late, so if I repeat any information, don't pay any attention! :p

I've been painting for years and for most of that time, I used the direct painting method. Start with blue for a blue sky. Start with green for a green tree. Start with brown for a brown horse. I got pretty good at that, but gradually, I became unhappy with the flatness of the colors.

A long, long time ago, I had the extreme privilege of seeing some classical art in person for the first (and so far the only time) and the luminosity of parts of those paintings take my breath away. Burgundy silk looked like silk, not like a painting of silk.

It took a long time, but I've gradually come around to the idea that i could, maybe, get the same look with horses. So last winter, I began researching classical painting techniques and I looked at several different artists from the 1600s, 1700s and some from today. Vermeer is the one whose technique seemed the most basic and the most easily learnable. I've been working on learning it ever since.

There is a lot of information to be had on classical oil painting techniques (also applicable to colored pencil, which I do, and acrylics, which I would like to do), but I will stick to things I've learned hands-on.


UNDERPAINTING

The underpainting can be any color you like. For high key paintings, I've seen yellows or oranges used. Vermeer was known to use red a time or two. Shades of gray seem to be the most popular.

My favorite color is a mixture of French Ultramarine Blue, Burnt Umber and Titanium White. That makes a wonderful warm gray if you use more Burnt Umber or a cool gray if you use more blue. I also chose those colors because they are 'lean' (not a lot of oil content or absorbency) and because they dry fast. Usually over night. The more white you use, though, the longer it will take to dry.

I do a very highly detailed underpainting. Eyes, highlights, shadows, direct light, reflected light, all of that I place before I ever think about color. With small paintings (8x10 to 11x14), I can usually spend 90 minutes on the first pass, then another 60 to 90 minutes on the refinement pass the next day. I like doing it this way because I can focus on values and detail without also having to worry too much about color.

REMEMBER: Your underpainting should show a nearly full range of values from light to dark, but not a complete range. Glazing does darken values, so make use of that for shadows. A good rule of thumb is to make your underpainting lighter over all than what you think it should be.


COLOR LAYERS

Not all of the painting will be glazed. Generally, the brightest highlights will be opague. This gives the painting not only some very high key highlights, but some surface texture and interest, too.

Those opague passages also make the glazes really pop! If you examine a classical original, you will see that in most cases, glazes were used to add emphasis to particular areas. A dress. A wine glass. Fruit. A mirror.

When I start glazes on a horse, I start with the lightest colors and glaze into the areas where I actually SEE that particular color or where that color will PRODUCE the color I see. I used to glaze every color over every part of the horse. That doesn't work!

I also often blend colors on the canvas. For example, with a dark brown horse with some gold highlights, I would start with Naples Yellow in the lightest areas, followed by Raw Sienna, Burnt Sienna and Burnt Umber. I paint each color so the edges are blended, but without making mud.

I also keep the paint layer very thin, so I can still see the underpainting through that paint layer.

The other thing you need to remember is to follow the fat over lean rule. Start with paints that are lean (low oil content or absorbency), finish with paints that are fat (high oil content or absorbency) or use mediums to produce that fat over lean rule.

I also use very little medium at any stage, so I use as many transparent pigments as possible.

The idea of using a final glaze to unify a painting is valid, but my experience has been that the absolute final stage ... the last thing I do before signing that painting ... is to dry brush or scumble opague highlights into select areas just to add some punch.

Glazing is a great painting method. There are things that only glazing can do.

But it is a time consuming technique, as well. You do have to wait for paint to dry. In today's technology driven if-it-isn't-ready-in-30-seconds-I-don't-have-time-to-wait mindset, it's a difficult thing to learn. I haven't learned everything. There will always be something to learn and I look forward to that journey.

For those of you are love the look, I urge you to stick with it! It is worth it! Don't be afraid to take some time to learn everything you can. Don't be afraid to experiment, either! That's how most of the masters learned. Believe it or not, there is a basic plan for the classical technique, but every artist who ever mastered it has taken what he learned from building on it and altering it to meet his or her working methods.

You can do the same thing!

Chaldecott
10-09-2004, 07:33 PM
I have had a little classical training at Mission Renaissance in Southern California but we kind of whizzed by glazing. I have tried a few on my own and something isn't right. What happens is that I get a fairly decent tonal underpainting in shades of grey but when I start glazing, it is drab and looks like I am coloring a black and white photograph. I drool over the beautifully glazed paintings I see at the museums and wonder how they did it. Is it multiple glazes???

Thanks for your help.

Dee

Definately multiple glazes, very thin translucent, (well that depends realy) one after the other,fat over lean: in other words each layer slightly more opaque pigment than the previous layer. Do you need to let the layers dry before applying the next? Well, it is commonly assumed Yes! but that depends on the technique of the painter also. But of course there is a lot more to it than that.
My mind has ventured to a particular tint I am working on even now...

dcorc
10-09-2004, 07:46 PM
Very good advice there, Carrie

One thing about the underpainting while Burnt Umber and French Ultramarine are fast-drying - Titanium White is a slow-drying white - alternatives you could use are Alkyd Titanium White, a Lead White (Flake or Cremnitz), or a 50/50mix of Lead White and Titanium White - which will all dry faster :)

Dave

Keith Russell
10-10-2004, 12:59 PM
Carrie, thanks a great deal for the above info. I printed it out, and have placed it in my 'painting' folder, which I use for the notes and handouts for my painting class this semester at the Kansas City Art Institute.

Our instructor has us painting a little more than a painting a week, so I haven't been able to do any serious glazing. (Which is fine; I'm new to oils, so simply learning how to handle the paint is enough work for me right now.)

Eventually, though, I hope to do more serious glazing, so having this information will come in very handy.

Thanks,

K

dcorc
10-21-2004, 03:28 AM
A brand new WetCanvas article, by Bill Martin, on Glazing with Oils has just been published:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/32418/530/


Dave

Danny
10-31-2004, 10:45 AM
Earthy,
Welcome to the wonderful world of wet canvas!
I never use w/s oils because they worry me. There has to be some chemical that makes this oil break down under water because oil and water do not mix. That is the concern of most oil painters is longevity of this concoction. To me it is like using nutra-sweet instead of sugar, or soybean instead of beef. Personally I prefer the beef!

earthy
10-31-2004, 12:50 PM
Earthy,
Welcome to the wonderful world of wet canvas!
I never use w/s oils because they worry me. There has to be some chemical that makes this oil break down under water because oil and water do not mix. That is the concern of most oil painters is longevity of this concoction. To me it is like using nutra-sweet instead of sugar, or soybean instead of beef. Personally I prefer the beef!

Hi Danny, and thanks for the welcome! It's very much appreciated cause I havent posted very often for a while. (long story :D )
Anyways.... I loved the thought of rinsing the brushes in water since I had played around with water colors a bit first. But, I finally decided to buy MGrahams walnut oil paint instead of the w/s oils. Partly cause of the questionable oil and water dont mix fact, but mostly cause everything I read here (and in Sean Dye's book) made me think that they are mostly kind of a stiff paint straight out of the tube. Then I read about how fluid and creamy the mgrahams are, and that I could clean my brushes with the walnut oil and not have to use harsh/smelly solvents. I love them!
I guess "only time will tell" for those using the w/s oils. I wholeheartedly wish them good luck!

Please pass the sugar and the salt and "Where's the Beef?" LOL :)

Biki
10-31-2004, 02:09 PM
i am so pleased someone brought this back to the top.

Thanks Carrie for the clear instructions. I also have saved it in my notes.

I have recently been using glazes here & there on my paintings.
Someone gave me the tip to add a little lead white to the mix to speed up drying time. It works.

snakum
12-10-2004, 10:19 AM
I've never really gotten the hang of glazing either, though I can usually pull it off convincingly enough (for a self-taught amateur) on clothing or wood. Despite the best (and most gracious) efforts of Scott Methvin, Leopoldo and others here and elsewhere, I never could nail a glazed skintone over a verdaccio or terra verte underpainting. Those guys can do it beautifully, but I really need to spend more time at it. And you'll get the hang of it, too. Like a lot of things in art, it will come with dilligent practice.

For now though ... I just pick and choose where I use it. :D

Minh

Martin de Madrid
12-13-2004, 06:08 PM
Here are two paintings which make extensive use of glazing. The first was glazed over a grisaille of Trukey Umber and Flake White, the second over Purple Iron Oxide and Flake White. These are photos of the works in progress, I do not have photos of the finished works yet.

The one with the babies is a commentary on racism and violence in the US school system, and society (afer Columbine) and the connection with violent toys/images on t.v./movies etc. It is called "Child's Play: NRA Babies."

The other one is a commentary on the obsession with breast size as evidenced in men's magazines, and the ideal of the classical cannon of female beauty. Is Venus comtemplating a "boob job?" It is called "Venus Maxibusto: A Study in Proportions" and orginally was going to feature Pam Anderson, and be subtitled "A Shrine for Pam Anderson." This was when she had to have her implants removed (she quickly had them re-implanted -- it is amazing how she had NO publicity in Playboy after their removal, and how she "rebounded" after the re-insertion!).