Work in progress 16 X 20 pastel

[dollardays]

Started this one in a life drawing class and would like to finish it but the model is gone. Any comments appreciated. I am wondering whether to add the darks and if I should make them blue-violet in color or would it contrast too much with the peachy skin color. :confused:

Thanks,
Nora

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/06-Jul-2001/step4.jpg

[dupliKate]

Now that's a difficult pose for a model to hold! The way her weight is distributed and the angle of her head and neck...makes me think you must have worked really quickly. She must have needed to break fairly often.

She seems a little elongated in the body, but I am no expert. I think you did a great job on the hands and foreshortening in the bottom leg and forearm.

I don't have any suggestion for colour, as I am the world's biggest chicken when it comes to using colour! I will be watching what advice people give you, cuz I wouldn't know what colour to use here next. Great place to learn, eh?

I have several times wanted to finish a drawing I started in life class, and found myself completely lost without the model. But, you seem to have captured enough information here to keep on going, or to use it as a reference for a new work.

I'd really like to see where you take this. It is very beautiful already.



:) K

[jwaskey]

Hello Nora! :)

This looks like a good start,

Like kate, I think there are some proportion issues on the body-- particularly around the waist and legs. The head may also be a tad too small. All of these should be correctable in pastel if you want to continue, so I recommend that you measure from a body landmark or two and see what you think.

As far as color goes, well, without the model there it's going to be hard to correctly judge the lighting-- especially with as tricky a head foreshortening as you have. I've attached an image that shows some quick modifications to the pose, along with something to think about for color--- basically just "punching up" what you already have.

As far as particular color choices, I'd like you to start laying in color that "feels" right-- don't worry about nailing a particular hue, work instead on the relative *value* of the color.

Do that, and your color choice will follow.

For an example of "interesting" color choices that "break' the rules, look at Margaret Dyer's work:

http://www.dig-it.com/mdh/


I hope this helps/makes sense...

jason

[jwaskey]

And here's an animated gif that shows the difference between the two images...

It'll play 12 times.
If you need/want to see it again, refresh the page.

Jason

[Mario]

Interesting thread, I like the M.Dyer work thanks for the link.
Hi Nora, What medium was the original work done in? Why did you pick the colors that you did rather than paint the colors that were in front of you? It seems that all of the problems arose because of an arbitrary choice of colors to begin with, then where do you go? Much more could have been learned by painting the actual colors that were there because what you are then doing is painting the image in the light that it is in. The illusionistic effects would then make sense to the eye. Also, unless the artist is VERY experienced, a picture should not be continued at home without the model because then, you are just guessing. These are difficult things to live with but these are the "rules" that you will find in a high quality art class.
I am not a teacher, I am a student. I have spent years learning how "learning" is done. I have spent years studying good art. I have excellent teachers. I am only passing along some of what I am learning. There's a right way to learn and to use a class for learning. There is another way also which is groping in the dark.

[Nathangill]

Right way to learn?
Rubbish.

I'm a homeschooler, so I'll likely get a bit sentimental here..

But any rules you set in art, you should set for yourself - based on your own abilities. There's no right way to draw, no wrong way. If there were, and everyone followed the guides, you'd loose the individuality.
If there were such things and right and wrong ways, would we see surreal art?

I say just go it... Get yourself happy with something, then go show it to other people, see what advice they have. Then come back and take whichever advice you liked.

For me, that's the most effective way of learning. That's how I learned to play the penny whistle, how I'm learning the bagpipes, and how I'm learning to draw.

Mitz, IMHO, your advice was great. The raw, unsoftened critic is just what I like to get in my own drawings.

I just don't like to hear anyone talking about "The RIGHT way"
LOL

[Mario]

Hi Nathingail, I stopped by to check the thread before going offline, cause my critiques draw a lot of heat here and I'm either going to have to change the way that I word them or quit making them.
I am self taught in a number of musical instruments and in several other pursuits. It is my conviction that most music teachers just want to make sure that there is a next lesson to be taught (read $$) or they just haven't figured out how to teach it. This goes for most areas of learning. So, I agree that self taught is often the best way to go. Fine art seems different to me because with just a solid year of basics you are set free and always have a fine teacher by your side in simply being able to view the subject and respond sensitively. I'm talking about the ability to paint what you see with minimal preconceptions. This is not rubbish, far from it, it is a beautiful gift that one can work hard several months for and then see their world in a whole new way, for the rest of their life and no one can take that away. Then you can "get yourself happy with something" and there will always be growth.
Othewise, you may well on your way to painting yourself in a corner. There is a right way to start and it will save a lot of time later on.

[Nathangill]

Whoops - accidently called you Mitz, Mario.

Anyway, just look around - there's great self-taught artists, and there's great formally-taught artists. Both ways work. You simply can't say there's the right way and the wrong way.

Shame people don't like your critique methods, though... While I have trouble giving it out, the critique I love to recieve is the kind that doesn't hold back... The kind where you say what you think, not think of what to say.

Later...

Nathan.

[dollardays]

Jason!! Thanks!! :p

Do you do your digital reworks in Photoshop? Anyway- this one is very helpful to me, being "self-taught" as I am ;) . I try to pick the brains of people whose work I admire and that would be Jason for sure. I also read a lot of art books and have just started taking this life drawing class to improve my skills.

This was done in three ten minute sessions- actually two because I threw the first one away. So I'm into it for a total of twenty minutes and don't really care how it turns out. It seemed to have potential and I like to use my imagination. I'll post the finished product by Tuesday (hopefully). It's a learning experience as I haven't done a nude in over fifteen years (in graphic arts community college classes).

Yeah, the proportions of the figure do look a little out of whack. She was pretty tall and the angle of the head is weird because I think she was having a hard time holding the pose. I may even change that!

Thanks for everyone's comments.

[jwaskey]

Nora--

Good, glad the retouch stuff is useful. It's always a bit wierd to work atop others stuff-- you're not trying to make it your own, just point out what you see.

Yes, I use trusty old Photoshop-- I use it everyday, to the point where they pay me for it, thank goodness.

Everyone has their favorite drawing the figure book, so I'll recommend mine:

Drawing the Head & figure
by Jack Hamm

Great rules and explanations.

Jason

[dollardays]

Mario wrote: Hi Nora, What medium was the original work done in? Why did you pick the colors that you did rather than paint the colors that were in front of you?

This is nu-pastel. I was in a hurry as I had twenty minutes to complete the drawing and no time to pick and choose colors. I tried to stick to a light, medium and dark value.

Mario wrote: Also, unless the artist is VERY experienced, a picture should not be continued at home without the model because then, you are just guessing. These are difficult things to live with but these are the "rules" that you will find in a high quality art class.

But then I'm not in a "high quality art class"; I'm in a room with a group of artists trying to improve their skills by drawing a live model. To me- there are no rules, I paint what I like and what looks good to me. I was asking for an objective opinion on color.

Mario wrote: I have spent years studying good art. I have excellent teachers. I am only passing along some of what I am learning. There's a right way to learn and to use a class for learning. There is another way also which is groping in the dark.

I have spent years CREATING good art, (at least what I consider good art). That's probably not the same thing as studying it, to be sure. ;) Art is VERY subjective. Thanks for the critique, anyway. Here's the finished work- I have a total of two and a half hours in it and was pretty happy with it, even though I FINISHED IT AT HOME!!! ***shock *** horror ***

Nora

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/09-Jul-2001/modelwebsz.jpg

[Mario]

Well, I guess you don't need my input. Next time, Ill get my cheerleader custom on, or better still, I'll just disappear from this forum. That way, you won't have me nor Richard Nixon to kick around anymore.

[Nathangill]

Don't leave, Mario - to me you seem like the most honest critic here.

[Miltz]

Nora, I think the derivation from the life sketch is fine, though I agree with comments concerning the angle of the model's head. My primary thought is that it appears that the model was primarily lit by light reflected off of the floor in your original drawing. She appears back lit in the final, was she?
Anyway, the real comment I wanted to make is that I thiunk you have gone a little too cool in the centeral concave in the figure, and perhaps a hair too dark, particularly in the lower abdomen. An interesting lighting situation, I like the way you are attempting to rersolve the figure with cool and warm tones, it is tough to pull this off convincingly. On the other hand, 2 hours and 20 minutes aint much time either. First figure in 15 years, huh? You havent lost it, Rock on!

Originally posted by Mario
Well, I guess you don't need my input. Next time, Ill get my cheerleader custom on, or better still, I'll just disappear from this forum. That way, you won't have me nor Richard Nixon to kick around anymore.

It takes a lot of guts to do what you do, Mario, but strength of character doesen't always make lots of friends. Instead it makes good friends. I have a lot of respect for most of your opinions, if not always your presentation. But I personally will take substance over presentation any day. In other words, please stick around, I am looking forward to sparring over one of my posts one of these days!;);).
There are already plenty of honest cheerleaders here.
Having said that, I disagree with the comment that there is no value in reworking a life study in the studio. All paintings eventually reach a stage where the internal logic of the picture is more important than the observed source material. The working out of this internal logic and completion of the painting based on it can be very rewarding, though in some ways it is much harder intellectually than working from direct observation.

Nice digital retouch, Jason. I think these are the best learning tool for most people, gets the language interpretation out of the way. I used to do a lot, but since my tablet is not on this computer anymore, and photoshop without WACOM is severely lacking, I haven't kept up with it...

Nathan, thanks for mistaking Mario for me. However, I kind of disagree with you in that there is no right and wrong in drawing in particular or art in general. I feel that you need to know the rules before you can break them with consistent success. Plus, there is a huge body of time tested methods for learning to draw well, most of which are tied up in learning how to see. Don't knock training until you have tried it, it will allow you to progress much faster. Just be aware that a bad teacher is not all teachers, you do have to look to find one who is right for you.

[Nathangill]

I didn't knock it - I pointed out that both ways work.

[deevaa]

and i'll say it again here....

Miltz... there is a lot to be said about delivery. No one wants to have their ego's trod on, Mario may be right about SOME of what he says, (and by NO means do I agree with all of it) but if he comes across as arrogant and unyeilding people are going to get their backs up.

People learn most from those they respect and Mario isn't earning any respect, he's posted in my thread and in this one that he'll just disapper. now if that's not throwing this toys out of the cot then what is? I don't want him to rave over my work, I just want him to respect the fact that there are some FEELINGS involved here, alot of part time artists put alot of soul and spirit into their work, and that should be respected.

Nora, I think your aditions are lovely, I also have a slight issue with the angle of her head, but you've done a wonderful job here.

Maybe you could bring more of the white from the hip area up to behind her arm to resolve the darker area there?

:D over all, well done.

[Mario]

HI DD..I just don't think you learned anything about the figure by continuing it at home...perhaps, a decorative aspect in choosing colors that go together but that was not the figure that was in front of you in class. {This is how the class I attend is taught and although I do not like it, I see the truth in it and I have to agree with it. We don't work on a painting when we get it home because then it is just guessing.} There is a whole world of color out there that is being ignored, moving darks and lights around as deeva suggests wouldnt be necessary if you just painted what was in front of you...and that isn't easy it take training and sensitivity. Nor am I talking about photorealism. We both like Jwaskey's work (long time listener, first time caller) wherein you posted-"I like your paintings very much. I have tried so hard to work in blocks of color as you do and I always end up "drawing" the picture. Post some more- or even a few process pictures- I would be interested in your creative process." Well, that's the problem, how do you learn to paint like that? I'm saying "in a good art class." It takes some training to be able to see and to paint what you see...not paint it "exactly" but there is a painterly way to respond to what is in front of you. We really have simular tastes and goals. imo

[dollardays]

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Jul-2001/fix.JPG

She seems a little elongated in the body, but I am no expert.
This was helpful. I lengthened her right leg quite a bit.


Like kate, I think there are some proportion issues on the body-- particularly around the waist and legs. The head may also be a tad too small. All of these should be correctable in pastel if you want to continue, so I recommend that you measure from a body landmark or two and see what you think.

Also helpful... and why I really like posting a work here. Measured body to standard scale, and found that the arm was too long,the head too small, etc. and I attempted to fix it.

As far as particular color choices, I'd like you to start laying in color that "feels" right-- don't worry about nailing a particular hue, work instead on the relative *value* of the color.

This is what I did, exactly. (Thanks again, Jason)

My primary thought is that it appears that the model was primarily lit by light reflected off of the floor in your original drawing. She appears back lit in the final, was she?

Florescent lighting coming from above, and yes, a spotlight of some sort in the front that seemed to drain all the color from the front of her body. I would have liked the room to be darker to create more shadow. but most of the others complained that they couldn't work in "bad" light. I created the backlight because I wanted to add some kind of contrast between the figure and the background.

Thanks for all the comments - I actually used a little bit of everyone's suggestions, as you can see from the comparative pic posted above.

People learn most from those they respect

I agree wholeheartedly with this, Deeva.

[deevaa]

Nora, I'd not noticed her body was out of proportion, but now that you've lengthened her leg I agree that you've added to this piece. Lovely work.

Can we see the final work bigger? Please?

[dollardays]

Hi Deevaa,
Here is the final version in a larger format. I'm glad you like it. (Even if it is just "a decorative art lesson whrein I choose random colors that go together".) But I kind of like the way it turned out too. :)

Regards,

Nora

This is the largest size the forum would allow me to attach.

[deevaa]

You know, i liked your work before.... now.... now almost impossibly, it is better.

the work on her knee and chin are very well done. Hold your head up girl, you did good. :clap: :clap:

[jwaskey]

Well I'm new enough around here that I don't want to start any fights, but I'll make some comments anway, and we'll see what happens, eh?

Mario:

"..I just don't think you learned anything about the figure by continuing it at home...perhaps, a decorative aspect in choosing colors that go together but that was not the figure that was in front of you in class. {This is how the class I attend is taught and although I do not like it, I see the truth in it and I have to agree with it. We don't work on a painting when we get it home because then it is just guessing.} "

I understand the sentiment, and agree with it somewhat in principle. Except...

Working from life, working the actual color and conditions, yes it is important to be on scene. Yet many plein aire painters take their work home and refine/rework in the studio. Is the work any less true? Not in my opinion. Frederick Church made great paintings of outdoor scenes at home. In his studio. Hopper used to diagram stuff out, make color notes, and incorporate b/w sketches in to his ull color work.

The list could go on and on.

Now Nora's still climbing up the ladder, and I would generally agree that it's important for her development to concentrate on what she sees in front of her-- what's there in the real.

That being said, I think there's tremndous amounts for her to discover by further rework, and I think she's shown some good advancement in this piece. Stuff I think she'll be quicker to get to/discover the next time she's in front of the model.

Nora:

I think you made some good progress with this 'un.

Next time I'll hit you harder with different stuff... ;)


Everybody:

Good thread.


Jason

[jwaskey]

PS,

Mario:

"We both like Jwaskey's work..."

Thanks!

:)

Jason

[dollardays]

Jason
I think you made some good progress with this 'un. Next time I'll hit you harder with different stuff...

Thanks, Jason, that will make me work harder. I think you would make a wonderful teacher.

Deevaa: Thank you for the encouragement. We're going to have to scrape more money together and have a longer session next month. Nora

[Verdaccio]

Hello Nora: Coming in to this topic a little late, sorry.

I just wanted to say that while it would have been great to be able to continue with the model in front of you, IMO, no time is EVER wasted when you work on your art.

People learn from a variety of different situations - painting from life is one that is great, but only possible for limited periods of time. It is up to the artist to make their own decision on whether they want to continue on their own or not. I believe that if you do, then you are not doing yourself any disservice and that you will still learn and improve from what you accomplish.

There are too many excuses NOT to paint out there - that should not be one of them.

[Mario]

Well, I failed at communicating this and that's OK, I'll try again when I am able to explain it better. Last nite, I attended my Figure study class. Our teacher (one of the very best in the country) was explaining to a fellow student why one should not work from a photo. The explanation
was eloquent and I can not approach duplicating it, nor do I fully understand it but I sure take his word for it.
As far as working on a painting without the model, well I think that one you will have to research for yourself, because you won't take my word for it. Sure, you can and should work at home, you will do your best work at home, but have the subject of your painting there in front of you. Maybe, being an illustrator or a designer is another thing, maybe it works for them, painting from life is something different and very special.