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CMcLaughlin
04-19-2015, 05:11 AM
I have been painting in oils and am considering trying out acrylics (as an addition, not a replacement for oils).

The main thing that turned me off from acrylics previously is the color shift from wet to dry, but I read that some brands have now eliminated or greatly reduced this issue, Winsor Newton being the primary one.

I live in China and there is a limited selection of affordable artists' quality acrylics here. Golden and Liquitex are both available, but at really high markups. The two brands that are available at reasonable prices are Rembrandt and Maimeri Brera. Can anyone who has used these brands comment on how much of a color shift there is?

My other option is to get a WN starter set, though the regular individual tubes are not available here, so to replace them, I'd have to stock up on trips to the US (once every 2 years).

Also, I've read that color shift is greater with some pigments than others. Is that generally the lighter colors? Or is there somewhere that mentions which pigments have this issue?

Finally, does medium use affect this problem? On their site, WN recommends only using their Artists' mediums in order to prevent color shift. Unfortunately, mediums are even harder to find here than the paints. There is an abundance of mediums for cheap lines, but would it best to avoid those?

Thanks!
Carey

idylbrush
04-19-2015, 07:46 AM
Because of the nature of the acrylic base, a color shift is nearly impossible to avoid. IMHO.
Golden seems to have a small color shift and I find that after years of using this product, I automatically compensate for the shift.
There is no big secret, it is a matter of patience and practice. Lots of painting and learning.

Andrew
04-19-2015, 09:34 AM
The key is of course pigment load. All paints have some level of colour shift, even oils. It is less noticable in oils do to the natural tones of the drying oils and the way the pigment particles are suspended in the vehicle.

In water based media, this shift is potentially more noticeable, especially with certain colours. Some brands minimize this by upping the pigment load to around 70% solids, which unless you thin them out excessively relieves much of the effect.

The easiest way to work around it is to just practice and get used to what that shift will be and you will learn how to correct for it as second nature.

Andrew

cliff.kachinske
04-19-2015, 10:12 AM
This video shows a color shift test performed with three brands that promise no color shift. Don't know if these will help your situation with availability in China, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtviCrSDhB8

CMcLaughlin
04-20-2015, 08:35 PM
Well, I found the answer to one of my questions. According to Liquitex's Acrylic Book:

The acrylic/water emulsion has a slightly milky color when wet that clarifies as the paint dries This milky appearance lightens (to a slight degree) the value of the color. As water leaves the emulsion, and the binder clarifies, the value of the color darkens This color change is commonly called the wet-to-dry color shift and is most noticeable with dark transparent pigments (such as Alizarin) and less noticeable with light opaque pigments (such as Cadmium Yellow).

So Titanium White should have the least shift. Maybe what people mean when they say that white shifts a lot is that they add a lot of white to dark transparent colors, so those mixes change?

No one has any experience with Rembrandt or Maimeri Brera? How about Holbein's new Heavy Body?

Carey

oramasha
04-20-2015, 08:57 PM
I'm sorry, I only have experience with Golden.

I notice the biggest color shift with phthalo blue and green in value and saturation. I don't really notice color shift in the cadmiums, earths, or lighter colors, but that might just be my own insensitivity.

Sebastian Rooks
08-30-2015, 08:18 AM
Maybe be it's a bit of a late reply here, but anyway:

I think the most important factor is the one Andrew already mentioned: Pigment load. In the artist grade paints, usually pigment load is much better than in studio grade paints. But the Phthalo's tinting strength is so high, that paint manufacturers may choose to hold back on the pigment load with those. And on top of that, they are very transparent pigments. The more transparent the pigment, the more effect the cloudy white color of the acrylic binder will have, since that hinders the light from bouncing around between the transparent pigments in the paint film, until it cures. So in other words: the bigger the difference between the appearance of the acrylic binder and the corresponding properties of the specific pigment, the bigger the shift wet to dry. In the case of Phthalo Blue:
1) The pigment has a dark value ; the wet acrylic binder has a light value.
2) The pigment is very transparent ; the wet acrylic binder is cloudy (has a degree of opacity).
3) This Phthalo Blue paint may be formulated with a lower pigment load, than other colors from the same manufacturer (which means you see more of the milky white acrylic binder when wet, and that disappears when dry).

and 3) answers your question; medium use affects this problem (in a negative manner). Using acrylic medium in acrylic paint, is basically just lowering the pigment load (if the medium is formulated to increase levelling or other effects, you get that too of course).

I make my own acrylic paint from color pastes, and I can recommend doing that, when it comes to wet/dry color shift, simply because you can easily push pigment load further than what you get in industry made artist grade paint. I make acrylic paints from pigments as well, and in that case I can tell you, I find the Ultramarine pigments present the largest color shift, wet to dry. Specifically Ultramarine Violet and Ultramarine Red.
In most of the acrylic paints I make from color pastes, I cannot see a shift from wet to dry in masstone.

Here is for instance an image of a jar my Pyrrol Orange PO73 acrylic paint, (made from color paste). Dry paint on the left, wet paint on the right.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Aug-2015/1077412-WetdryPO73.jpeg

And here is an image of a jar of my Naphthol Red Light PR112 acrylic paint (made from XSL-pigment)
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Aug-2015/1077412-WetdryPR112.jpeg

And here, an image of a jar of Titanium Orange PBr24 acrylic paint, made from pigment, (and actually just "mulled" in a suitable mortar and pestle):
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/30-Aug-2015/1077412-WetdryPBr24.jpeg

Just to give you a few examples :-)

CMcLaughlin
08-30-2015, 08:39 AM
Sebastian, thanks for the explanation, that is helpful to know. Those paints look really nice. Where do you get color pastes?

Sebastian Rooks
08-30-2015, 09:11 AM
Hi CMcLaughlin.
Thanks, and you're welcome :-).

I have tried 2 suppliers of color/pigment pastes so far (it's pigment dispersed in water, in some cases with a minimum of additives, to stabilize the solution), and the "Kremer Color Pastes" are far superior. I get those from "Kremer Pigmente". Those are also by far the most well documented. The amount of solids (pigment content, in this case) is clearly stated on all of them, as well as pigment CI names and numbers.
I have and use almost all of them. You can use the same color pastes to make watercolor and gouache as well. I highly recommend it, that's how I got started making paint. And moving from student grade to artist grade paint as well. It's cheap as well, per ml. Naphthol Red Light (PR112) I can make for approx a fifth (20%!) of the price/ml of a 473ml Golden jar of PR112 paint. And that's pushing pigment load roughly as far as it goes, without compromising paint film integrity.

And most of the time, you can make acrylic paint with only 2 ingredients: one of those color pastes, and an acrylic binder (for instance Plextol D498, from Kremer as well).

This will be a low viscosity paint, but that's keeping it as simple as it can be. It can be modified with different additives from there, if need be.
In order to make a paint like the PR112 I posted above, use 1 part PR112 color paste to 2 parts Plextol D498 (by weight, so for instance 40g PR112 color paste, to 80g Plextol D498, that yields about 140ml Naphthol Red Light paint).

cliff.kachinske
08-30-2015, 05:12 PM
How long does it take to grind the pigment into the medium? I assume it's mortar and pestle work or something similar.

Sebastian Rooks
08-31-2015, 04:27 AM
You don't grind it into the medium (in my terminology at least, the medium is a binder, or a specialized binder, with certain properties to modify the paints handling). You grind it into the vehicle, which with acrylics (and watercolor/gouache) is demineralized water (water, but demineralized to minimize risk of mold growth due to unclean water and equipment).
In oil, to my knowledge the vehicle and the binder is the same thing: Oil, which might explain your thinking.

So: how long does it take? It greatly depends on your needs, and pigments require very different amounts of grinding time . The above image of the PBr24 paint (Titanium Orange), has properly only been grinded about 10-15 minutes, which is very little time. It could be ground for much longer, but then it would be better to use a glass plate and a glass muller, for that purpose. But for me, I like the ease of using mortar and pestle, I like my paint with a slight gritty quality to it (especially for impasto work in acrylics; I love it!). You might not, however, that's for you to decide.

But like I said; I use color pastes too. For glazing techniques, a gritty paint wont do.
I use only certain pigments for this paint making technique, with mortar and pestle.
Another thing, right in between color pastes and pigments I can recommend, is XSL pigments (from Kremer as well)! Those you can mix with water, just by stirring, and leaving for a bit to be completely dispersed in the water (they have been surface treated for this purpose). It's a bit cheaper than the color paste solution. It's very cost-effective, in relation to the time that goes in to making the paint. I use most of those too, not too many are available. But Titanium White I make like that, for instance. The Titanium White color paste, by the way, is the only one I do not use; I can't seem to make a successful formulation of paint with it. Incredibly enough, that brings the price of Titanium White paint down to a fifth of an artist paint titanium white, at least where I'm from (Denmark).

Remember though, if handling pigments, also the XSL pigments: Wear a mask and gloves, and you should avoid pigments like the cadmiums. Small particles are very bad for you. And pigments should not be transfered to your mouth by coffee cup and the like.

Start with the Color pastes. If that gets your juices going, move on to pigments after that. That's my recommendation :-) It's SO easy, and you do not need to wear a mask for that.

Sebastian Rooks
08-31-2015, 10:20 AM
@Stumblefingers: I forgot to clarify, that when making paint with regular pigments, after dispersing them in water with mortar and pestle (or muller and plate), then you add the medium/acrylic binder. I would not pour the acrylic binder into the mortar, but instead pour the dispersed pigment/water (pigment paste) into a suitable jar, and then pour acrylic binder into the jar, and slowly stir with a clean spatula. You can easily see when the pigment paste and the acrylic binder is properly mixed.

cliff.kachinske
08-31-2015, 11:08 AM
Sebastian, thank you for the tutorial. Sounds easy enough.

Sebastian Rooks
08-31-2015, 11:34 AM
you're very welcome :-). It definitely is.

CMcLaughlin
08-31-2015, 09:46 PM
Sebastian, how long do the homemade paints last? Does the acrylic binder have any preservatives in it?

Sebastian Rooks
09-01-2015, 06:04 AM
CMcLaughlin - The homemade acrylic paints last so far at the very least 2 years, and counting. As long as you mix in the acrylic binder, and don't just leave your homemade pigment paste (if making paint from dry pigment yourself) without proper preservatives. The acrylic binder Plextol D498 does have a little preservative in it. In the datasheet, it says that it's only enough to protect it between the manufacturer and to delivery to you. But in practice I find it sufficient. If you dip your brushes fully loaded with unclean tap water into these jars of homemade paint, then maybe you're putting the preservatives more to the test than I am. I do dip my brushes in directly quite often actually, but not overly wet.

If you require more preservatives, which Kremer does recommend, you simply buy "Preventol" and at a small chip of that into the paint. But like I say: I haven't done so yet, and some of my paints have lasted at least 2 years by now, none of the acrylic paints have gone bad so far.

I recently made a batch of gouache paint / watercolor paint (such wonderful paint, I never worked with anything like that before :-)). I didn't add any preservative to my homemade gum arabic watercolor binder, and I poured the gouache paints into a palette with a lid, and splashed generous amounts of tap water into the paint wells. So naturally that meant mold growth in a few of the paints, after a week or so. So next time, I'll make sure I add a chip of Preventol to my next 250ml bottle of homemade watercolor medium.

Here are some pictures of what I made testing the paints, so you can see some of that gouache / watercolor paint in action, if you're interested:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Sep-2015/1077412-Dreams.jpeg
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Sep-2015/1077412-IntoThePondsmall.jpeg

Mario_K
02-17-2018, 08:51 AM
What are people's experiences with Atelier Interactive?
Do they shift much?
As a new painter I more than not screw up when mixing paint. I keep making the same damn mistake in get the colour how I want to then after I've painted it and it has dried it has darkened. How do you all avoid this trap? Do you mix the colour you want then lighten it slightly with white? This makes working so hard for me.

cliff.kachinske
02-17-2018, 10:06 AM
Hi Mario. This answer won't help much ... you get used to it and naturally adjust.

Also, I think it's a good idea to relax a little bit about matching exactly the color in your reference. It's more important that the colors in your painting work together, at least in my opinion.

Sebastian Rooks
02-17-2018, 11:14 AM
What are people's experiences with Atelier Interactive?
Do they shift much?
As a new painter I more than not screw up when mixing paint. I keep making the same damn mistake in get the colour how I want to then after I've painted it and it has dried it has darkened. How do you all avoid this trap? Do you mix the colour you want then lighten it slightly with white? This makes working so hard for me.

I tried the interactives, a unique experience in acrylic, definitely worth a try. They do shift, when they dry, but you can keep the entire painting damp with a fine mister/spray bottle, and that way the shift will be somewhat equal all over. I found they shifted more than I expected. They will require some getting used to, but they really are unique.
Have you thought about the Golden Open’s? A unique experience there as well. Otherwise you can make your own, as I described earlier in the thread. That way you can really push the pigment content and for many pigments avoid most of a drying shift.
Be aware that thinning any acrylic with water, makes the shift more pronounced with most colors, in my experience at least.

oldnmartist
02-17-2018, 02:32 PM
If you use the paint a lot, it becomes somewhat instinctive I believe as to how much to account for darkening.

Mario_K
02-17-2018, 11:02 PM
Hi Mario. This answer won't help much ... you get used to it and naturally adjust.

Also, I think it's a good idea to relax a little bit about matching exactly the color in your reference. It's more important that the colors in your painting work together, at least in my opinion.

:thumbsup:

Mario_K
02-17-2018, 11:02 PM
If you use the paint a lot, it becomes somewhat instinctive I believe as to how much to account for darkening.

Practice makes perfect I guess

Mario_K
02-17-2018, 11:13 PM
I tried the interactives, a unique experience in acrylic, definitely worth a try. They do shift, when they dry, but you can keep the entire painting damp with a fine mister/spray bottle, and that way the shift will be somewhat equal all over. I found they shifted more than I expected. They will require some getting used to, but they really are unique.
Have you thought about the Golden Open’s? A unique experience there as well. Otherwise you can make your own, as I described earlier in the thread. That way you can really push the pigment content and for many pigments avoid most of a drying shift.
Be aware that thinning any acrylic with water, makes the shift more pronounced with most colors, in my experience at least.

Hi Sebastian,
Thank you for replying.
I am new to painting so have gone from student grade to Interactives.
I have not heard about Golden Opens. My art stores don't stock them.
Making your own sounds interesting, I wouldn't know where to buy the pigments and all that. I never knew that thinning with water makes the shift more pronounced. I am going to try painting without adding anything for my next painting.

I do not understand how spraying with mist will help? From what I understand spraying mist onto Interactives makes them workable longer so you can blend longer. When they dry they'll still shift anyways?

Sebastian Rooks
02-18-2018, 03:39 AM
Hi Sebastian,
Thank you for replying.
I am new to painting so have gone from student grade to Interactives.
I have not heard about Golden Opens. My art stores don't stock them.
Making your own sounds interesting, I wouldn't know where to buy the pigments and all that. I never knew that thinning with water makes the shift more pronounced. I am going to try painting without adding anything for my next painting.

I do not understand how spraying with mist will help? From what I understand spraying mist onto Interactives makes them workable longer so you can blend longer. When they dry they'll still shift anyways?

Hi Mario, my pleasure :-).
Good choice going from student grade to artist grade in general. Golden open paints are slow drying, giving you lots of time to blend while the paint is on the canvas. Whereas the interactives dry quickly to the touch, but rewets with water. The biggest challenge with paint that shifts when drying, is painting the right color fresh paint next to a certain color dry paint, because you cant trust your eyes, you have to know what the paint will look like when it dries. But if the whole painting is misted over, and “wet”, it will all dry with about the same degree of color shift. Then you’ll either just get a bit darker painting, or you can try to paint the whole thing a bit lighter.
Like the previous poster said, it’ll come eith experience, no matter how you do it.

I dont really think about it myself, i paint with Open paint, or with my own normal drying paint with very high pigmentation to avoid drying shift, and then i paint in lots of layers. That makes color shift less of an issue. Not something I feel I have to think about.

I buy paint making stuff from Kremer, but if you’re just starting out that’s overkill.

Mario_K
02-18-2018, 04:31 AM
Hi Sebastian,
Ah I see, so spraying it evens it all out even if the dry paint is darker than the wet paint?
I don't think you can buy Golden Open in Australia. I can't find anything online.
I'll consider them for future.
Thank you!

Sebastian Rooks
02-18-2018, 04:49 AM
Yes, I find that it does :-). Not perfect, but can work fine. It has to be a very fine mister though. Atelier makes their own mister, which is good for the job.
You can find Golden Open in Australia for sure. Google “golden open site:*.au” and you’ll get all search results in the .au domains.

Br, Sebastian

Mario_K
02-18-2018, 04:59 AM
Yes, I find that it does :-). Not perfect, but can work fine. It has to be a very fine mister though. Atelier makes their own mister, which is good for the job.
You can find Golden Open in Australia for sure. Google “golden open site:*.au” and you’ll get all search results in the .au domains.

Br, Sebastian

Thank you.
Ah yes, I found one store in the city that sells many of the brands you folk use.
I just use a normal water sprayer I bought from a variety store.

cliff.kachinske
02-18-2018, 09:58 AM
You want to set that sprayer for the finest possible mist.

bartc
02-18-2018, 12:16 PM
I have used many brands of acrylics over the years. Generally preferred Liquitex heavy, but have been switching to Atelier Interactives and love them.

The occasional acrylic color shift is something that I don't find annoying, as the slight darkening is not a big deal. In fact, if darks look murky to you in any acrylics, try a sealing layer of clear medium, and you are likely to find them coming out of their shell. This does work with Atelier.

The greatest shift that for me is HIGHLY disturbing occurs when painting in bright sunlight outdoors and taking the painting into indoor lighting of any kind, particularly fluorescent. If you're painting in bright light and especially if you are painting in any particularly colored light (all light is colored, BTW), you are likely to feel disappointed. It's something for which you have to control. This is true of pretty much all paints.

Mario_K
02-18-2018, 07:44 PM
I have used many brands of acrylics over the years. Generally preferred Liquitex heavy, but have been switching to Atelier Interactives and love them.

The occasional acrylic color shift is something that I don't find annoying, as the slight darkening is not a big deal. In fact, if darks look murky to you in any acrylics, try a sealing layer of clear medium, and you are likely to find them coming out of their shell. This does work with Atelier.

The greatest shift that for me is HIGHLY disturbing occurs when painting in bright sunlight outdoors and taking the painting into indoor lighting of any kind, particularly fluorescent. If you're painting in bright light and especially if you are painting in any particularly colored light (all light is colored, BTW), you are likely to feel disappointed. It's something for which you have to control. This is true of pretty much all paints.

Thanks.
Why does that occur?

Mario_K
02-18-2018, 07:45 PM
You want to set that sprayer for the finest possible mist.

I don't think I can but will try.
If not I will buy the Atelier spray bottle.