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Bastet469
03-25-2015, 03:07 AM
Hi peeps,
I was reading forum posts on purples and it seems the consensus is that the darkest black you can get with purples uses Dioxizine Purple (PV23) with Phthalo Blue GS (PG7). However just like convenience greens, many think that convenience purples are unnecessary. So let's explore the idea of purple-based blacks by asking two questions.

1) Are there any other purples besides Dioxizine Purple that could do the job of creating a dark black?

2) How would you go about making a purple from scratch for creating blacks?

Feel free to swap out the Phthalo Green in either case. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts. 😊

-wendy

Mythrill
03-25-2015, 10:52 AM
Hi peeps,
I was reading forum posts on purples and it seems the consensus is that the darkest black you can get with purples uses Dioxizine Purple (PV23) with Phthalo Blue GS (PG7).


Wendy, actually, Dioxazine Purple (PV 23) + Phthalo Green Blue Shade (PB 15:3) will give you a blue-violet. Dioxazine Purple + Phthalo Blue Green Shade (PG 7) will also give you a low-chroma cyan. One of the reasons is because both Dioxazine Purple and Phthalo Green are so chromatic they don't neutralize themselves. If you want to get a neutral tint, consider adding a red to the mix.


1) Are there any other purples besides Dioxizine Purple that could do the job of creating a dark black?

2) How would you go about making a purple from scratch for creating blacks?


1) Yes. Quinacridone Violet (PV 19-beta) is much easier to use, although a bit warmer and redder.

2) I think an interesting combination that would be quite purplish is Quinacridone Violet (PV 19-beta) + Phthalo Green Blue Shade (PG 7). If you want to neutralize it, just add some yellow to the mix.

Patrick1
03-25-2015, 12:11 PM
There is some mix-up in terminology here regarding pigment names and their corresponding numbers. I think the question is about Phthalo Green BS (PG7) + PV23. It makes a very dark blue - in masstone it's easily as dark as a true black (one of my favorite mixed dark blacks!). But add white and it's surprisingly blueish...like indigo...but can be more turquoise or violet depending on the proportions. PG7 and PV23 share quite a bit of blue reflectance in common, and not much of other wavelengths...hence the blueish mixing results.

Using Phthalo Green YS (PG36) instead will be similarly dark/black in masstone, but not as stridently blueish in undertone and tints.

Using Sap Green, Hooker's Green, (or the infamous PG8 :lol:) will get you black in masstone and also very close to neutral in tints...sometimes will be perfectly neutral.

Ultramarine Violet can be substituted for PV23 but because it's not as dark, it won't mix blacks as dark. Also it's a weak tinter (not always a bad thing).

Yup you can pre-mix your own purple to be a compliment to any green you have. If the main intent is for mixing really dark, luscious blacks, best to mix it from a dark transparent red/crimson/magenta + a dark transparent blue.

Patrick1
03-25-2015, 12:17 PM
P.S. its neat to see others going the purple-green route to mixing blacks...it seems less common than red-green and blue-brown...yet gives blacks that are often darker.

Gigalot
03-25-2015, 12:19 PM
There is some mix-up in terminology here regarding pigment names and their corresponding numbers. I think the question is about Phthalo Green BS (PG7) + PV23. It makes a very dark blue - in masstone it's easily as dark as a true black (one of my favorite mixed dark blacks!). But add white and it's surprisingly blueish...like indigo...but can be more turquoise or violet depending on the proportions. PG7 and PV23 share quite a bit of blue reflectance in common, and not much of other wavelengths...hence the blueish mixing results.

Using Phthalo Green YS (PG36) instead will be similarly dark/black in masstone, but not as stridently blueish in undertone and tints.

Using Sap Green, Hooker's Green, (or the infamous PG8 :lol:) will get you black in masstone and also very close to neutral in tints...sometimes will be perfectly neutral.

Ultramarine Violet can be substituted for PV23 but because it's not as dark, it won't mix blacks as dark. Also it's a weak tinter (not always a bad thing).

Yup you can pre-mix your own purple to be a compliment to any green you have. If the main intent is for mixing really dark, luscious blacks, best to mix it from a dark transparent red/crimson/magenta + a dark transparent blue.
PV23 + Carbon Black.

jorri
03-25-2015, 09:41 PM
Dioxazine purple is already one of the darkest non-black pigments, but true neutrals seem to need convenience greens. Indanthrone blue or prussian blue which are just as dark will cancel out with oranges/earths. Crimsons i find are best for pthalo green BS but each crimson pigment gets different hue shifts even if they are the same basic alizarin-ish colour, all of them are dark though. Darker than lamp black.

Actually, gigalot is on to something there, adding crimsons to lamp black also darkens it! I don't find any more than with PG7 though.

Bastet469
03-26-2015, 03:09 AM
Oops! Sorry for the typo. I meant to say Phthalo Green BS (PG7) not Phthalo Blue GS That's what happens when you post too close to bedtime. Lol Thanks for spotting it guys. 😊

-wendy

Bradicus
03-26-2015, 05:50 PM
PG36 and PV19 are the mix for gamblins chromatic black. They are suppose to be true exact compliments...

But it doesnt seem any darker than my FUB, sap and pr264 mix.

For me, mars does not seem that black. Opaque as all get out though!

Brad