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airplanz
03-07-2015, 01:05 AM
I recently came across some old 1980s vintage Liquitex acrylics. With a little mixing they appear to be usable, and will give me the chance to experiment with a new (to me) primary/secondary palette.

The secondary colors will be:

Pthalo Green PG 7
Cadmium Orange PO 20
Dioxazine Purple PV 23

Primary colors will be:

Cadmium Yellow Light PY 35
Ultramarine Blue PB 29
....and here's where the ? is. I have three different reds on hand, and unsure if any of them are usable. They are:

Naphthol Crimson PR 170
Cadmium Red Light PR 108
Naphthol Red Light PR 9

I'm used to working with a split-primary palette so accustomed to mixing the secondaries. Won't have to do that this time as the secondaries are pre-mixed, but would like a single red that can mix both a good red-orange and a red-violet with it's secondary neighbors :D .

Open to any advice, and thanks in advance :) .


airplanz:D

opainter
03-07-2015, 03:01 AM
Hi!

Any of these reds, mixed with Cadmium Orange (PO20), will give you a good red-orange mix. Cadmium Red Light (PR108) will probably mix the best, although the advantage it has over the other reds will be slight.

None of these reds, when mixed with Dioxazine Violet (PV23), will give you a perfect red-violet. Cadmium Red Light will probably mix the worst, and some mixes of it with Dioxazine Violet will be muddy. By "muddy" I mean brownish. You could use either of the naphthol reds (PR9 or PR170). For a couple of reasons I would pick Naphthol Crimson (PR170). First, it is more lightfast than the other naphthol. This is always a consideration to bear in mind! Second, because it is closer in hue to Dioxazine Violet (even if just by a little bit), it should also give you better (less-muddy) mixes.

The advantage you get by using Naphthol Crimson in mixes with Dioxazine Violet will outweigh the advantage you get by using Cadmium Red Light in mixes with Cadmium Orange. So I suggest that you select Naphthol Crimson for your red!

You will probably want to do your own mixes to either prove me right or prove me wrong. Colors made with the same pigment can vary between manufacturers, and they can vary for the same manufacturer over time. Besides which, my opinion, although somewhat informed (I hope!) is still just that - my opinion.

Good luck!

Gigalot
03-07-2015, 05:08 AM
would like a single red that can mix both a good red-orange and a red-violet with it's secondary neighbors :D .

This single red has the name "Magenta". The theory of Magenta color is it's reflective curve. True Magenta must reflect in a blue and in a red part of spectrum and must absorb all green light. Therefore, Magenta color has the second name - Primary Red. The good primary red absorbs Green light well.
Naphthol Crimson PR170 is quite good Primary Red color. It is an unique, attractive pigment.
In the printing industry, the most optimal Primary Reds are PR57:1 Lithol Rubine and PR122 Quinacridone Magenta. The fugitive PR81 is also very useful in printing, it is a brightest magenta with some fluorescent properties.

Mythrill
03-07-2015, 06:56 AM
I recently came across some old 1980s vintage Liquitex acrylics. With a little mixing they appear to be usable, and will give me the chance to experiment with a new (to me) primary/secondary palette.

The secondary colors will be:

Pthalo Green PG 7
Cadmium Orange PO 20
Dioxazine Purple PV 23

Primary colors will be:

Cadmium Yellow Light PY 35
Ultramarine Blue PB 29
....and here's where the ? is. I have three different reds on hand, and unsure if any of them are usable. They are:

Naphthol Crimson PR 170
Cadmium Red Light PR 108
Naphthol Red Light PR 9

I'm used to working with a split-primary palette so accustomed to mixing the secondaries. Won't have to do that this time as the secondaries are pre-mixed, but would like a single red that can mix both a good red-orange and a red-violet with it's secondary neighbors :D .

Open to any advice, and thanks in advance :) .


airplanz:D

Airplanz, avoid Naphthol Red Light (PR 9). It's very fugitive. Try Naphthol Crimson (PR170), or Cadmium Red Light (PR 170).

If you really want a magenta, you should consider Giga's suggestion. Quinacridone Magenta (PR 122) is the most balanced and versatile red-violet you can find, even if looks too bluish in masstone at first.

airplanz
03-08-2015, 04:28 PM
AJ, Gigalot and Mythrill, a great big thanks to you all :) .

I'll be going with the Naphthol Crimson PR 170. Did a couple of test mixes with the Cad. Orange and Diox. Purple with very pleasing results, the PR 170 performs exactly as you folks suggested.

Wishing you all happy paint slingin' :D ,


Jim (airplanz)

jorri
03-14-2015, 04:33 PM
I would have picked the red and the ultramarine to mix a red-violet from that, rather than the dioxazine. In fact i'm told that in interests of getting a 'large gamut' the best thing is to skip purples and mix ultramarine blue or violet with quinacridone magenta or rose to obtain many colour that paints don't exist as.

Depends what you are after, dioxazine I see a bit like a purple 'earth', that's not to say it won't be useful, just lower chroma from the primaries perspective.. (i'm not saying that this lower chroma paints aren't useful, often they are more useful and the purples have many textural and convenient qualities, maybe you already considered.)

Patrick1
03-14-2015, 04:44 PM
AFAIK, Dioxazine Purple is the most saturated (i.e. 'pure') artist purple there is. Not even Ultramarine Blue + Quinacridone Magenta can match it. Close (close enough for most practical uses), but not quite. Also that mix will not be able to match the dark-as-black masstone. I think Diox. Purple has a low chroma rating simply because of its darkness. But even lightened with white I've found it to be a little more chromatic than Ultramarine + PR122 at the same value.

Although of course there are lots of good reasons to want to mix your own purples from various reds/magentas and blues.

airplanz
03-15-2015, 06:17 PM
Jorri and Patrick1, thanks to you both for your comments :) .

Actually your posts were quite timely as I've considered substituting Phthalo Blue PB15 for the Ultramarine. IIRC, PB15 leans slightly toward red which should make it useful for mixing blue-violets with the Diox. Purple. Also, I feel PB15 would be preferable to Ultramarine for mixing blue-greens with the Phthalo Green. As long as I remember to add only a pinhead-sized speck of the Phthalos at a time, the mixes should work out well ;) .

All input is welcome :) .


Jim (airplanz)

Patrick1
03-15-2015, 09:16 PM
Jim...PB15 are greenish blues. Even the Golden 'red shade' version I tried (PB15:1) is still slightly on the green side (in undertone and tints). I haven't tried Daniel Smith's Phthalo Blue RS (PB15:6) but the online swatch looks similar to Golden's. I don't know of any that are truly reddish/purplish....if anyone does i would be interested.

http://oldsite.goldenpaints.com/justpaint/jp21article1/PhBlRSvsPhBlGS.pdf

The various versions of PB15 mix clean purples, but not quite as chromatically as Ultramarine Blue does (you can mix to see for yourself). But as you touch upon, Phthalo Blues have the advantage of mixing much more chromatically towards green...it mixes well in both directions.

airplanz
03-16-2015, 12:14 AM
PB15 are greenish blues. Even the Golden 'red shade' version I tried (PB15:1) is still slightly on the green side (in undertone and tints). I haven't tried Daniel Smith's Phthalo Blue RS (PB15:6) but the online swatch looks similar to Golden's. I don't know of any that are truly reddish/purplish....if anyone does i would be interested.


Patrick1, thanks for setting the record straight on PB15. The 'red shade' and 'green shade' variants are apparently little more than a marketing gimmick to sell more of essentially the same product (much like white 'school' glue) :rolleyes:

I'll try both blues with the Diox. Purple to see what happens, although I suspect PB15 will be the overall winner for a single blue on this palette.


Jim (airplanz) :)

Patrick1
03-18-2015, 03:44 AM
Patrick1, thanks for setting the record straight on PB15. The 'red shade' and 'green shade' variants are apparently little more than a marketing gimmick to sell more of essentially the same product (much like white 'school' glue) :rolleyes:

I'll try both blues with the Diox. Purple to see what happens, although I suspect PB15 will be the overall winner for a single blue on this palette.

Jim,
I wouldn't quite say it's a marketing gimmick, but I can say I found the difference between the two to be surprisingly subtle based on what I was expecting and hoping for. Especially considering the substantial difference between Phthalo Green BS and YS. Funny thing: that Golden technical paper shows that in masstone, the GS is actually a bit redder than the RS...go figure!

Any blue, cyan or even tuquoise + Dioxazine makes wonderful violet-blues. If you have to go with a single blue on the palette, some variety of PB15 or PB17 (Phthalo Cyan) will give maximum mixing ability, but with difficult-to-use tinting strength. I prefer any other blue as the main blue, and using PB15 only when necessary. Perhaps in watercolors it's easier to tame and use.

airplanz
03-18-2015, 08:32 PM
some variety of PB15 or PB17 (Phthalo Cyan) will give maximum mixing ability, but with difficult-to-use tinting strength.


Patrick,
More than any other color, Phthalo Blue taught me discipline and restraint by it's ability to completely smother any other color that it's mixed with in roughly equal proportions. For instance, I discovered that a 50/50 mix of PB15 and Cad. Yellow Lt. produced, well....PB15 with a strong GS bias, in a kinda-sorta way :D .

I couldn't recommend Phthalo Blue for painters who tend to zen out into the alpha state when they're wielding a brush. Mistakes made by adding too much PB 15 to mixtures are often uncorrectable, practically speaking.

BTW...are there any other colors that are a tinting strength match for the Phthalos?


Jim (airplanz)

Patrick1
03-18-2015, 10:58 PM
BTW...are there any other colors that are a tinting strength match for the Phthalos?
I too would be interested to know of any others.

Other than obviously PG7 and PG36, the only other ones I know of are Dioxazine Purple and real Prussian Blue PB27. In some places I've read these two are equal in tinting strength to PB15. In my experience, they seem to be a tiny bit less so. Maybe it's partly because these are not quite so 'artificial' looking and thus easier to incorporate with the other colors in the painting.

Indanthrone Blue PB60 and Carbon Black are also strong tinting and can dominate, but not quite at the same level as those above. I never tried Perylene Black/Green.

Because yellows are often overpowered in mixes, I like to choose yellows based on decently high tinting strength - more so than finding one with just the right orange/green balance.

Mythrill
03-18-2015, 11:27 PM
Funny thing: that Golden technical paper shows that in masstone, the GS is actually a bit redder than the RS...go figure!


Patrick, what happens with Phthalo Blue Green Shade (PB 15:4, in Golden's case) is that it is redder in masstone, but it becomes greener the more you add white. The exact opposite happens with their red shade (PB 15:6).

I don't know why this happens, though.

Patrick1
03-19-2015, 02:54 AM
A practical way of looking at it is that the GS has a greater hue shift from masstone to undertone & tints than the RS does. So it could arguably be derscribed as more two-toned or 'dynamic' or deep of a color. Or to be more technical, more purdy :p .

But comparing my side-by-side samples (Golden and Tri-Art) the difference is slight. I can't imagine any real need or benefit to have both GS and RS on the palette. Unless there is some more purplish RS version out there somewhere. Supposedly Winsor & Newton spaces their GS and RS farther apart. It would be interesting to see theirs compared side-by-side to see if there is a more worthwhile difference.

jocko500
03-21-2015, 03:28 PM
all I know if you into painting people a lot of people do add Naphthol Crimson to they palette. I do sometimes but not always. If i have more than one person on a painting I try to do diff skin colors on each of them to make it look like the two have diff skin tones. some times it still looks the same even thought I used diff colors to mix the skin:lol:

Patrick1
03-25-2015, 12:25 PM
I love Naphthol Crimson (PR170)...

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/r9LAfGkeb5E/maxresdefault.jpg