PDA

View Full Version : more mixing steps: red + blue and yellow + violet


Patrick1
01-31-2015, 02:30 AM
Two more mixing steps/scales I got around to doing. Bottom part is tinted with Titanium White.

First is orange-red + Phthalo Blue. No surprises...except I expected the purples to be a tiny bit more chomatic...they are very blackish and 'smoky'. Although the addition of an orange in this red convenience mix is surely the big reason. The second step shows a nice burgundy. Around halfway there is a slightly blueish black like Paynes Grey. A bit more blue gives an Indigo color.

Second scale is yellow + Dioxazine Purple. A 'wow!' for me...I'm stunned by the rich, earthy yellows you get on the left...quite different from Yellow Ochre or Raw Sienna...much like Nickel Azo Yellow! ..a color I thought was unmixable (step 3). With more violet, you get brownish maroons. The colors in this scale are strange, hard-to-describe, but beautiful in real life (the scan is decent but not great...a bit washed out). I'm sure with a transparent yellow as opposed to my opaque one, the resulting colors would be even more deep. Now...how/where to use these colors? :clear:

Patrick1
01-31-2015, 02:37 AM
Doh! An obvious answer to my last question (last sentence) that for some reason I overlooked: one of the best (the best?) ways to shade yellows in a natural way. :angel:

sidbledsoe
01-31-2015, 10:49 AM
very good patrick, I am starting to do some charts like this with my acrylics.
I noticed that the third mix in the red to phthalo string, is nearly the same color as the 6th mix in the yellow to purple string, they are both almost dead ringers for my mars violet or caput mortuum in oils, but each one mixed from very different colors.

Mythrill
01-31-2015, 11:43 AM
Two more mixing steps/scales I got around to doing. Bottom part is tinted with Titanium White.

First is orange-red + Phthalo Blue. No surprises...except I expected the purples to be a tiny bit more chomatic...they are very blackish and 'smoky'. Although the addition of an orange in this red convenience mix is surely the big reason. The second step shows a nice burgundy. Around halfway there is a slightly blueish black like Paynes Grey. A bit more blue gives an Indigo color.

Second scale is yellow + Dioxazine Purple. A 'wow!' for me...I'm stunned by the rich, earthy yellows you get on the left...quite different from Yellow Ochre or Raw Sienna...much like Nickel Azo Yellow! ..a color I thought was unmixable (step 3). With more violet, you get brownish maroons. The colors in this scale are strange, hard-to-describe, but beautiful in real life (the scan is decent but not great...a bit washed out). I'm sure with a transparent yellow as opposed to my opaque one, the resulting colors would be even more deep. Now...how/where to use these colors? :clear:

Hi, Patrick!

These mixes are interesting. This Transparent Vermillion (PR 112 + PO 13) and Phthalo Blue (PB 15) mixes very similarly on the cool part (up to the 4th mix, right to left) to Phthalo Green Blue Shade (PG 7) + Dioxazine Violet (PV 23)!

The mixes with Dioxazine Violet (PV 23) + Cad. Yellow Medium Hue (PY 74 + PY 65 + PW6) are also interesting. The second one, left to right, really looks like a lower chroma version of Nickel Azo Yellow (PY 15). Dioxazine Violet is an atypical violet to me. It looks violet in masstone, but it mixes with greens and blues in ways that I wouldn't expect from a warmer violet (e.g, Quinacridone Violet, PV 19-beta).

I think I will post some mixes of Ultramarine Violet (PV 15) and Hansa Yellow Medium (PY 74) here, too. :D

Patrick1
02-01-2015, 02:41 AM
Mr. Sid...astute observation! Yup...I noticed that too. You can imagine that this is approximately where the red-blue and yellow-violet mixing lines would intersect on a color wheel/mixing wheel. Although these mixes are almost surely deeper (darker) in masstone than mars violet or caput mortuum...which some people :clear: would find to be advantageous. P.S. I hope you do mixing scales like this and share the results...I'm still learning about color each time I make a new one. This time I used acrylic gel medium (rather than just water dilution) to get the thin undertone.

Mythrill...indeed the blackish-blues are very similar among those two strings you mention. They're useful for 'cool' shadow colors, stormy skies, or as black. About the midway point between the light red + Phthalo Blue is a black which in masstone could be considered a true black (darker than shows in the scan). Yeah...PV23 is neat that is is bluish enough that it can mix surprising blues, and is also reddish enough to mix maroons and even dull reds and oranges when mixed with orangy yellows or oranges. I think it was you (or someone else here) who showed PV23 + PY110 mix making surprising oranges and reds. PV23 reflects both the reds and blue part of the spectrum, so it mixes somewhat like a magenta. I'd love to see your PV15 + PY74 mix if you get around to it. I would expect the mixes to be lighter and 'softer' (a bit greyer) than when using PV23.

Bradicus
02-01-2015, 02:26 PM
These are great Patrick, thanks for posting swatches.
I dont use pv23 and thalo very infrequently. So I find this very informitive.

That #4 in the red to blue looks pretty darn neutral.

I read that 112 napthol is one of the best mixers in both directions.(for bright reds)
Out preforming cad red and pyrrole. Which I find interesting.
Astm rates LF1 but others give it a 2 due to some issue with ultraviolet light.
I m not sure where that would be a big problem...fluorescents maybe?
I dunno.

What brand and type are you using? I think I remember you like WMO.

It is note worthy that the purple to yellow 'ran through' the greyed browns as you would expect.
What always comes as a surprise to me is how the blue to red didnt run through purple/voilet. In fact FUB and pr101 or burnt sienna make a great black but it tints out green! At 210 degrees apart LOL!
But your mix,(112/orange is very close over pr101) didnt reflect much green to me. And thalo is closer to green.

Your chart is really well done with the tints of the colours broke down.
Cheers,
Brad

WFMartin
02-01-2015, 06:43 PM
There is a book being offered, I believe, the title of which is something like,
"Blue and Red Don't Always Make Purple". Some day I would like to write a book with the title, "Blue and Red NEVER Make Purple".

True, scientific Blue, and true, scientific Red are, in fact, secondary colors. Secondary colors mix to create a very near-neutral, as can be expected. Secondary colors are already mixtures of a pair of primary colors. So.....when you mix one secondary color [that already has, as its mixture, two primaries] with another secondary [that already has, as its mixture, two primaries], you have, by pure logic, a mixture of all three primary colors. Three primary colors mix to create neutral.

Surprising as it may seem, the same is true of mixing any two of the other secondaries. For example, mixing Blue and Green don't really create the "Blue-Green" color for which you may be hoping. The result is usually a very near-neutral. Mixing Red and Green don't create something between the two--that mix creates a near-neutral, as well. Red is a mixture of Magenta and Yellow, and Green is the mixture of Yellow and Cyan. Magenta absorbs the Green component of the RGB [white light] spectrum, Yellow absorbs the Blue light, and Cyan absorbs the Red light of the RGB spectrum, leaving no color being reflected.

Of course this is only true if you are selecting true, scientific secondaries as your ingredients. Picking Ultramarine Blue, which actually exhibits more Cyan characteristics, and picking Quinacridone Red, which actually exhibits more Magenta characteristics is bound to create "Purple", as they can be expected to do. But......real, true, scientific, Red and Blue are secondaries, and they mix to create a very near-neutral.

sidbledsoe
02-01-2015, 09:15 PM
mixing Blue and Green don't really create the "Blue-Green" color for which you may be hoping. The result is usually a very near-neutral.
:confused: I have never gotten a neutral when mixing blue and green, I mix very vibrant, chromatic blue/green colors with phthalo blue and phtalo green. For that matter, I have never used a tubed purple, I make purples with a red and a blue, in oils, watercolors, or acrylics. Right now I am using a limited palette in acrylics, burnt sienna, napthol red, cad yellow medium, and cobalt blue (viridian if needed) and I make purples with the napthol red and the cobalt blue. This is pretty much the "Stobart palette" that the famous english marine artist used.
Patrick, those are the charts I will be making.
If I need a more intense purple then I would use ultramarine blue and or with a crimson, but I seldom ever need that.
cobalt blue and napthol red mix
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/01-Feb-2015/112587-IMG_0498.JPG
I would add yellow to neutralize it.
When the red is a very orange leaning and the blue is very green leaning, the mix will be a very muted purple, like your first mixing pair where you did not get a neutral, and there is a range where you get muted mauves.

Bradicus
02-02-2015, 01:54 AM
... Secondary colors are already mixtures of a pair of primary colors. So.....when you mix one secondary color [that already has, as its mixture, two primaries] with another secondary [that already has, as its mixture, two primaries], you have, by pure logic, a mixture of all three primary colors. Three primary colors mix to create neutral.

...For example, mixing Blue and Green don't really create the "Blue-Green" color for which you may be hoping. The result is usually a very near-neutral...
Bill, with this logic, mixing two secondaries. You would have one part primary'A', two parts primary'B', and one part primary'C'.
Which would result in a greyed primary'B'. But not a neutral as I understand it.

And any of my blues mixed with any of my greens come out blue-green.

I am not trying to be arguementive: I just cant relate what you are stating to what I see in results.

Cheers, Brad

Gigalot
02-02-2015, 02:43 AM
There is a book being offered, I believe, the title of which is something like,
"Blue and Red Don't Always Make Purple". Some day I would like to write a book with the title, "Blue and Red NEVER Make Purple".

Agree. If you have Red, which can mix Violet - it is NOT RED. Most people actually use Magenta paints to mix violet. The difference between true Red and Rose Magenta is, that rose pigments have high percentage of blue light reflection, while true red do not reflect blue light. A lot of people are thinking that Alizarin Crimson, Red-looking Naphtols, Quinacridone Red PR209, Perylene Red and many other "Red" pigments are reds. No These pigments are Rose-Magenta colours. Red is just popular name which don't reflects real color of these pigments. They all have high reflection in a blue part of spectrum.
Try real Red. With no blue in it's spectrum. The almost ideal, scientific red is Cadmium Red Light PR108. It has almost rectangular light reflection curve. Try do not adulterated with organic reds, real Cadmium Red to mix violet with Cobalt Blue. You will get pleasant Brown color. I remember, Einiun said that he like Cadmium Red/Cobalt blue mixed brown very much!
Another phenomenon of this pure PR108 colour is, that Cadmium Red actually, have two complementary colors. Phthalo Green and Phthalo Blue, for example, are both complementary colors to a Cadmium Red Light.

Another example. I am thinking, I use RYB palette with folowing paints:

1 Phthalo Blue PB15
2 Quinacridone Red PR209
3 Hansa Yellow PY3

According to the pigment indexes, I have true RYB palette. Everybody will agree with me. But this my palette stay very far from real RYB. It is CMY palette. True RYB palette is:

1 Cobalt Blue PB28 (Ultramarine has high reflection in Red part of spectrum)
2 Cadmium Red light PR108
3 Cadmium Yellow Med PY37
The only vivid color you can mix using this palette is bright orange.

WFMartin
02-02-2015, 12:40 PM
And any of my blues mixed with any of my greens come out blue-green.

The key work here is "Blues". There is only one, true, scientific Blue, and most of the paints labeled, "Blue", are, in fact closer to being Cyan, depending upon their scientific location on a color wheel. Even Ultramarine Blue is closer to being Cyan on a color wheel that it is to being actual Blue.

And, of course, Cyan and Green will mix to create what most artists would call a "Blue-Green". That's the reason that when you select any ol' paint labeled, "Blue", and mix it with any ol' paint labeled, "Green", you are quite likely to achieve a "Blue-Green". Unless you have selected a scientific Blue, and a scientific Green, you will probably get some sort of Green with the mixture, as you should be expected to. Many artists just select a tube labeled, "Blue", and expect it to behave like Blue, while, in fact, it may have many more characteristics of Cyan.

I often mention that you can call a horse a chicken, but don't expect it to lay eggs.:lol: (The analogy: You can label a paint, "Blue", but unless it plots on a color wheel as "Blue", don't expect it to behave like true, Blue.)

Bradicus
02-02-2015, 12:56 PM
...

1 Cobalt Blue PB28 (Ultramarine has high reflection in Red part of spectrum)
2 Cadmium Red light PR108
3 Cadmium Yellow Med PY37
The only vivid color you can mix using this palette is bright orange.
ok I am following now. I didnt know that about cads. But it explains why I dont care for them much as they are poor mixers. I use them to be sure, but only when I need that opaqueness. Really only the cad yellow gets used in practice, and not much at that.
Why only bright orange though...I need to test this!

I still cant relate not mixing blue and green not getting blue-green, but it must have to do with these specific spectum colour you refer to. What, in the oil paint world, would be a true green? And a true violet?

On to another question, why is it pr112 is a great mixer in both directions?
As napthols have a blue reflection, you would think mixing oranges would not be its strong suit.

Very interesting reading.
Brad

Gigalot
02-02-2015, 01:10 PM
On to another question, why is it pr112 is a great mixer in both directions?
As napthols have a blue reflection, you would think mixing oranges would not be its strong suit.

Blue reflection do not affect orange, reflection can't darken color, it only lighten it. However, blue reflection in orange color will lighten it and decrease saturation, but Cadmium Yellow, used to mix orange with PR112 restrict any blue. Cadmium Yellow is very pure yellow, it also have rectangular reflection curve with no blue light in it.

BTW, Brad, I almost missed your new painting! Well done! :thumbsup:

Bradicus
02-02-2015, 01:39 PM
...

I often mention that you can call a horse a chicken, but don't expect it to lay eggs.:lol: ...
Haha, ok I am catching on. I am guilty of enjoying those romantic paint names!

So per Alex, cobalt, cad red and yell would be close true RYB, but what would a near 'true' CMY in oils?

Brad

Bradicus
02-02-2015, 01:40 PM
...

BTW, Brad, I almost missed your new painting! Well done! :thumbsup:
Thank you for that Alex! I appreciate it.

Brad

WFMartin
02-02-2015, 02:10 PM
but what would a near 'true' CMY in oils?

Grumbacher Thalo Blue (PB15), for Cyan.

Either Grumbacher Thalo Red Rose, OR Winsor & Newton Permanent Rose 502......(Each is PV19), for Magenta.

Winsor & Newton Transparent Yellow 653 (PY128).

I have found that Thalo Blue is the nearest color to true Cyan in oil paint.

Also, many colors labeled, "Rose"-something or other, are usually quite close to being a true Magenta. There are many colors labeled "Magenta", that may plot closer to the Magenta "spoke" on the color wheel, but are usually quite lower in chroma than the paints labeled, "Rose....."

And, of course one requirement for being a true primary color is that it plot at, or near as possible to the outer ring of the color wheel. That is what makes these PV19 (Rose) colors a "better" Magenta than most of those colors that are actually labeled "Magenta" on their tubes.

Bradicus
02-02-2015, 02:37 PM
Very informitive.
I have grum thalo rose and thalo blue, and rembrandt py128.

Those are not so limited as cad red in mixing, so I am guessing they are not spectum colours. Just close to the true colour.( though I am unsure about py128, just got it)

Cheers,
Brad

sidbledsoe
02-02-2015, 05:16 PM
Quinacridone red and Thalo red rose, both named red, both have assigned pigment red numbers, but they are not red! in fact, there aren't any PC-cyan, or PM-magenta, color listings, even though they are primary colors!
and the color of art database (http://www.artiscreation.com/Color_index_names.html#.VM_rkZ3F9zg)does not have a category for cyans, or for magentas, even though they are primary colors!
there should be no confusion about the names of colors :lol:

WFMartin
02-02-2015, 08:53 PM
Sid.....Gotta' agree with you on that one. There's nothing more confusing to a color novice than to have a color called "Rose", that has a pigment ID of PV19 (Pigment violet), and to plot on a color wheel in the Magenta position.:lol: That pretty well says it all.:rolleyes:

But, when all is said and done, the scientific location of a given color on a color wheel, explains about as much as can be explained, in terms of that color's characteristics. Disregard all the "names", or "IDs".

And, in terms of the true, primary colors; they may be called "primary colors", "exceptional colors", "unique colors", or "Frank", George" or "Harry", for that matter. These colors, whatever you want to call them, are truly unique, and they behave in a manner that absolutely no other colors do. Once understood, they take all the "mystery" and "frustration" out of predicting a resulting color mixture.:thumbsup:

JamieWG
02-02-2015, 10:37 PM
Now...how/where to use these colors? :clear:

Hahaha! Well you could do complementary color/design sketches. ;) Which, coincidentally, is how I spent a couple of hours this week. We must have been communicating telepathically. ;) On the chance that you decide to put your new mixes to use, maybe you'd find this interesting.

I didn't use the same pigments you did (though I did use diox), and I neutralized at least one of them (by mixing with the other) so that I wouldn't go blind from the vibrations. My blue-orange also veered to violet. It's funny; I intentionally chose a reddish orange because transparent red oxide and burnt sienna tend to swing toward green when mixed with Ultramarine. So I chose Pyrrole Orange and the mix went violet.

My color selections were:
Upper left: Golden Neutral Grays
Upper right: Pyrrole Orange (PO73) and Ultramarine Blue (PB29)
Lower left: Diarylide Yellow (PY83) and Dioxazine Violet (PV23)
Lower right: Pyrrole Red (PR254) and Jenkins Green (Bone Black PBk9, Nickel Azo Yellow PY150, and Phthalo Green PG36)

I taped up a 24x36" sheet of paper into quarters, so each one is 12x18. I did the value sketch first, then used that as my reference for the color studies. As you can see, I didn't worry too much about straight lines, etc. I was more interested in seeing how I felt about the color contrasts, and if there was anything I'd find useful. Even having neutralized one color, it was a bit much for my artistic inclinations. I'd like to do it again, and next time use more neutralized colors.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/02-Feb-2015/13766-Morning_Color_150130.JPG

What I learned from doing this is that I am a more analogous palette kind of gal. LOL I prefer harmony to dissonance these days, and found doing those studies downright painful by the time I got to the last one!

Patrick1
02-03-2015, 01:46 AM
Mrs. telepathic Jamie - thank you. I especially like the Violet & Yellow sketch...to me, it has a natural, settling harmony...like the base colors you'd encounter around sunrise or sunset. The two on the right are definitely more jarring...esp. the red & green. But if you used more of the intermediate colors, that would surely tie things together more. I could imagine any of your 4 sketches working as base colors. Good work...I too like doing 4-on-1-canvas exercises.

I haven't used Pyrrole Orange, but I have used Perinone Orange - which is also a reddish orange. I too was surprised it mixes very low chroma purples with Ultramarine Blue. I haven't seen spectral charts of these, but I will guess that these organic reddish-oranges have a tiny but significant amount of reflectance in the blue wavelengths - at least when white is added. Somewhat like Naphthol Red Light.

Patrick1
02-03-2015, 01:59 AM
Brad, thanks for your kind comments. These are all acrylics:

'Transparent Vermilion' is Pebeo Studio High Viscosity. Student grade but as thick as most other heavy body artist-grade paints. Phthalo Blue is Amsterdam Standard. Cadmium Yellow Medium Hue is 'Wallacks XTra' (house brand of local art store) - but is actually made by Tri-Art. Dioxazine Purple is Tri-Art Liquid. This is amazing paint...comparable to Golden Fluid but perhaps a bit thicker.

If you do the yellow-violet scale with Lemon Yellow (PY3) instead, you get less reddish, more like greyish browns/taupes/beiges.

Patrick1
02-03-2015, 02:11 AM
Sid - it looks like you too have discovered using disposable foam plates for mixing. I spent years searching for the most easy-to-use palette (including nonstick white plastic) and foam plates are the only ones that aren't a chore to clean - because you don't. For a larger mixing area, and easier knife mixing, disposable waxed palette paper is great. BTW...is your orange I see made from Naphthol Red + Cad Yellow Medium? It looks a bit two-toned almost like Indian Yellow.

Gigalot
02-03-2015, 04:32 AM
I was more interested in seeing how I felt about the color contrasts, and if there was anything I'd find useful. Even having neutralized one color, it was a bit much for my artistic inclinations. I'd like to do it again, and next time use more neutralized colors.

What I learned from doing this is that I am a more analogous palette kind of gal. LOL I prefer harmony to dissonance these days, and found doing those studies downright painful by the time I got to the last one!

I have one my old painting, which have color harmony in all, 12:1 color combinations, in both, positive and negative modes. All color modes show pleasant colors. Complexity of color harmony is an interesting thing! People, who trying to reach high photorealism only in their paintings can miss a lot of colors and can reach a very low color harmony!

sidbledsoe
02-03-2015, 06:48 AM
patrick, yes, I don't have an orange or indian yellow tube of acrylic, just napthol red and cad yellow lt and med. here (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20363323&postcount=1) is the 2 dollar sta wet container I made that keeps acrylics nice and wet for weeks.

Patrick1
02-03-2015, 09:14 AM
I think it's important to exercise caution in labeling some colors/pigments as 'true' or 'scientific' and everything else as being (I can only guess) 'untrue' or 'unscientific' :lol: .

The only lightfast artist pigments that come close to representing 'true' primary color characteristics are some yellows - there are several very good ones to choose from. What if you want an opaque magenta?

As for secondary colors, only red has a good one - the aforementioned Cadmium Red Light. I don't know of any single-pigment secondary violet-blue that mixes black or neutral with a middle yellow. A lot of the pigments advocated as being 'true' primaries or secondaries are still far from it - but they work well enough for our purposes - which goes to show the unimportance of choosing the magical, 'correct' primary (or secondary, or whatever) paint color.

Patrick1
02-03-2015, 09:21 AM
Sid...thanks. I recently bought the largest size of foam plates I could find and they're awesomely conveniently great...big enough for small to medium paintings, and I can always use a second one if need be. In fact I often use 1 foam plate for mixing 'cool' colors, and another for the 'warms' - keeping them separate keeps the mixes cleaner - especially with oils.

Gigalot
02-03-2015, 09:31 AM
Teflon Palette is great thing!

Patrick1
02-04-2015, 03:08 AM
P.S. if there were such a perfect secondary blue and green (each neatly reflecting 100% in one third 'block' of the spectrum and zero reflectance in the other two thirds) I expect they would mix to black. Same with red and blue. But I have yet to see any green plus blue pigment mix that doesn't make some kind of green. The blue and green needed to mix neutral or black do not currently exist - at least as single artists pigments.

But...colored gel filters used in photography and stage lighting (such as Rosco) can get closer to those theoretical ideals for transparent primaries and secondaries. But they often use pigments or dyes that fade, or are dichroic filters which is a different technology than ordinary pigments or dyes. One of the best subtractive magentas...this is far more primary than any Quinacridone artist pigment AFAIK, yet still far from ideal:

http://www.rosco.com/filters/SED.cfm?titleName=R4790:%20CalColor%2090%20Magenta&imageName=../images/filters/roscolux/4790.jpg

sidbledsoe
02-04-2015, 05:43 AM
P, you don't have to mix with pigments, you can mix blue and green with an online color mixing tool and I think you will get blue green.
I think that the problem is with the 'theory" or names or something, no duo combination of red, green, blue will give you a near neutral or black. Red and green is the closest but gives more of a brown, red and blue mixes a muted but decided purple, blue and green mixes a nice blue green. But cyan, yellow, and magenta mix to a neutral, something doesn't wash. :D

Patrick1
02-04-2015, 06:16 AM
Sid! sorry...I meant to say that any blue + green pigment I've yet encountered will mix some form of blue-green.

But I haven't tried some greens like Chromium Oxide Green or Green Gold - the Golden MXR shows that these greens + Ultramarine Blue make almost grey (!?)

sidbledsoe
02-04-2015, 06:31 AM
Yes, I think the reason is simply this, to make a blue, as we know it, in real pigments from cyan and magenta, they are not mixed "equally" and the same thing with red, to make a red from magenta and cyan, you need to use more magenta. So things don't line up in a perfect circle with mixing complements opposite like you do with a traditional RYB color chart.

JamieWG
02-04-2015, 08:36 AM
Mrs. telepathic Jamie - thank you. I especially like the Violet & Yellow sketch...to me, it has a natural, settling harmony...like the base colors you'd encounter around sunrise or sunset. The two on the right are definitely more jarring...esp. the red & green. But if you used more of the intermediate colors, that would surely tie things together more. I could imagine any of your 4 sketches working as base colors. Good work...I too like doing 4-on-1-canvas exercises.

I haven't used Pyrrole Orange, but I have used Perinone Orange - which is also a reddish orange. I too was surprised it mixes very low chroma purples with Ultramarine Blue. I haven't seen spectral charts of these, but I will guess that these organic reddish-oranges have a tiny but significant amount of reflectance in the blue wavelengths - at least when white is added. Somewhat like Naphthol Red Light.

Patrick, I agree with you about the violet and yellow, though I wonder if it's not as much a response to the value difference as the color. I do love blues and oranges, but they need to be more muted for me and maybe not veer so much toward violet. I've done lots of blue/orange studies and paintings that worked much better, like this one with transparent red oxide and ultramarine:
http://www.hudsonvalleypainter.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/100322-Evening-Drama-12x16-4502.jpg

And although this new one doesn't use only those two pigments, it was designed to play off the blue-orange complements, with higher chroma than the previous example:
http://www.hudsonvalleypainter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/150202-Hudson-River-in-Blues-and-Rusts-20x30-ac-800.jpg


This post was recently put up in the Plein Air forum (http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1371085) by WC member Michaelmcg. I think the first painting is a good example of a successful violet-yellow color scheme!

The red and green combo doesn't work for me at all. I know a lot of landscape painters who tone their canvases a bright red. I seem to only like them if the red gets completely covered by the greens, but when a bright underpainting color pokes through uncovered in spots, and is so unrelated to the color of the painting, I find it very distracting and jarring. I think that would be the case with blue on a bright orange background too, or violet on a bright yellow background. When the colors are so far apart in hue, I think they need an overall reduced chroma, except for focal points, etc.

MangaDepressed
02-04-2015, 04:35 PM
They are beautiful colors

sidbledsoe
02-04-2015, 05:47 PM
red and blue mixes a muted but decided purple
even some red and green mixes can still give you a purple.
I know this from making purples with viridian and reds, but to show how true this is, I took Bill's primaries, thalo blue, perm rose, and what WN says is a primary yellow, lemon yellow, and mixed up two colors, an orange leaning red, and a very green leaning blue:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2015/112587-IMG_0505.JPG
then I mixed those two and still came up with a purple, then I mixed the greenish blue with my napthol red and got purple again. It is no wonder why people think that red and blue make purple, so do red/orange and blue/green!
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/04-Feb-2015/112587-IMG_0506.JPG

Patrick1
02-05-2015, 04:03 AM
Jamie - your Transparent Red Oxide + Ultramarine Blue is wonderful :thumbsup: ...a classic color harmony that I otherwise would only be guessing how it was achieved. Really surprising you can get that with only two colors plus white. Yeah...violet/yellow I think works well also because of the inherent light/dark value contrast, not just because of them being decently representative of sunlight/shadow colors. Your (largely) blue/orange scene I like even more. I like the warm, slightly greenish sky which ties the blues and oranges together. Good stuff!

Patrick1
02-05-2015, 04:29 AM
Sid, I remember being surprised to discover that adding PG7 to purplish Quinacridone reds makes (potentially very useful) very dark violets. PG7 would be attenuating a lot of the red reflectance of the red-violet pigment ...somewhat like a cyan would, but resulting in an even blacker mix.

Your orange-red + greenish-blue is more surprising. I would have guessed you'd get neutral or maybe even on the greenish side of things considering you used PB15 (always be wary of the green monster!). My guess is that much of the purplishness is from blackening the orange-red (adding black to any red, then lightening with white will give a more purplish appearance), but it's also possible that the blue-green mix was blue enough to pull the mix a tiny bit toward purple. And white usually brings out subtle colors in dark mixes - usually towards the 'cool' side. Just my guess! Goes to show just how hard it often is to predict mixing results...simple CMY theory is often at a loss in real-world mixing examples, better to go by experience. And mixing charts :angel:.

JamieWG
02-05-2015, 10:05 AM
It is no wonder why people think that red and blue make purple, so do red/orange and blue/green!

ROFLOL!!! Sid, that's a great line. All roads lead to violet! Hahahaha. :lol:

Patrick:
I would have guessed you'd get neutral or maybe even on the greenish side of things considering you used PB15 (always be wary of the green monster!).
"The green monster" --- Love that nickname, and so fitting! Actually, maybe it's the green-eyed blue monster! There is something I learned from a workshop with Kim English though. He feels that cerulean sometimes looks dirty or too low chroma, so he uses a cerulean hue. Instead of buying one, I took some PB15 (GS), mixed it with titanium white, and tubed it myself. I generally don't like hues because of the mixing problems when white is added. However, this thing is incredibly useful, and costs a fraction of what cerulean costs. Plus, straight phthalo is so strong that it becomes a mixing nightmare. I generally only use it with white anyway.

Patrick, many thanks for your comments on the paintings.

Patrick1
02-06-2015, 06:47 AM
Jamie, now whenever I buy pure Phthalo Blue or Green (not a convenience mix containing it), it will be student-grade. This is the only color I actually prefer in student-grade. It's easier to control (slightly less insane tinting strength), a wee bit less masstone darkness, but little or no loss of chroma in mixes. Just one way to tame the beast.

Yes...real Cerulean is usually a bit duller in mixes (at least when mixing greens) ...but I've found that can be a virtue; the few times I've used real Cerulean as a complement for darkening skin tones, I was happy that it didn't produce any unwanted green-ness. But for mixing bright greens, yes I'd prefer a Phthalo-based hue. I even like Phthalo-based Cobalt Blue hues as a good all-round middle blue.

Color theory talk = good. Color mixing charts = better. Practical color theory application = best :angel:. Thanks for sharing your artworks.

JamieWG
02-06-2015, 10:16 AM
Jamie, now whenever I buy pure Phthalo Blue or Green (not a convenience mix containing it), it will be student-grade. This is the only color I actually prefer in student-grade. It's easier to control (slightly less insane tinting strength), a wee bit less masstone darkness, but little or no loss of chroma in mixes. Just one way to tame the beast.
Patrick, that's a good idea to test drive it in a student grade version for the virtues of the pigment weakness! Not something we usually look for in paint! ;)

Yes...real Cerulean is usually a bit duller in mixes (at least when mixing greens) ...but I've found that can be a virtue; the few times I've used real Cerulean as a complement for darkening skin tones, I was happy that it didn't produce any unwanted green-ness.
I agree with you, and I generally prefer cerulean too. A few companies make a really clean cerulean. Winsor Newton and Golden are among them. I was using a different brand in Kim's workshop, and he pointed out how dirty it was. He was right. But we did so many paintings in that workshop that I went with lesser grade paint, having been warned by somebody else who took it. I think the first day I did over 30, 8x10" paintings! It was incredibly fast paint-slinging like I've never experienced, and he goes for quite saturated colors. The hue would have been much better than the dull cerulean I was using.

Color theory talk = good. Color mixing charts = better. Practical color theory application = best :angel:.

Well, you bring up something I've been struggling with a lot in the past few weeks. Those of us who hang out here in the CT forum do a lot of studying of color theory. But when you browse the internet actually looking for examples of many paintings done with all possible permutations of these different palettes, you cannot find them! It would be great if we could create some resource threads for different palette types, showing actual paintings and listing the colors used. Sometimes something that sounds really good in theory does not work in practice, and I'm always trying to shorten my learning curve! The red/green complementary palette is a good example of a total fail in practice, IMO. I suppose I should qualify that by saying that I have yet to see it work well. ;)

Jamie