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new2paint
07-01-2001, 05:15 AM
hello,
can someone please tell me which green to use to make a dark rich red without getting muddy? im using liQuitex and cadium red.

thanks

mame
07-01-2001, 11:50 AM
Mud is good! You mix complimentaries, you're gonna get it.

Transparent or opaque?

Warm or Cool?

What's it for?

Grumbacher Perylene Maroon, Alizarin Crimson and Thalo Crimson are good transparent reds to start with.

Grumbacher Thio Violet, a tch of Thalo Green with just a bit of Cad red (more on the purplish side)

Grumbacher Perylene Maroon, Greenish Umber and a tich of Cad red - warm dark brownish opaque.

Don't forget acrylic dries darker.

Play around.

LarrySeiler
07-01-2001, 12:28 PM
As Mame suggests, its not a simplified answer that is going to help you here.

A number of issues are at hand. Even if you get what you think is this "rich" red...colors that will surround the brushstroke on the panel itself will have its influence.

Strong areas of color want to cast their complementaries on adjacent/neighboring color.

So....let's say you had an area of greens...greenish/blues on the painting. Such would cast its complimentaires of the reds and red-orange upon its neighboring color.

If you painted a smaller area of yellow...the yellow next to this green area would lean to appear more orange....than if the yellow were painted next to violets, etc; A red stroke of paint might appear redder.

Also...depending upon what the subject is...you might be better off mixing a variety of greens to soften edges and take on a glow of reflective light. I would prefer to mix my own greens using various yellows- yellow cad medium, cad light, or Hansa light, with Phtalo blue, cobalt, ultramarine...and touches of white. Such mixed with your reds will give varying results.

Then...as Mame so well informs, what about that red? Do you mix a warm mixture of green to a cool red, a cool green to a cool red, a cool green to a warm red, etc??? All will give different results, and <b>YET</b> even so...where you place it on the panel in relationship to adjacent colors it will look different than on the palette. So...you must experiment and get to know and understanding mixing warm and cool.

Larry

mame
07-01-2001, 12:31 PM
you did and that "dark" is relative depending on the values within the composition. and what you said.

new2paint
07-01-2001, 02:37 PM
thanks guys,

im sorry for being so vague. the reds are the reflective surface of a photorealistic liquitex acrylic on canvas painting i am doing of an automobile. i find that the cadium reds do a good job of transitioning from dark areas the car all the way to cadium orange and yellows for the part in the sunshine. the car is red, ferrari red to be exact. i find blending for the light tones to be fairly easy, but keeping the tonal value in the darks is very hard especially since ferrari red is an orange red to begin with and going to the crimsons tend to be the wrong hue. on my last paintoing the surface of the car had hundreds of overlapping layers to achieve the blended look i was going for, what a pain!
i guess everone is right that there is no substitute for experimintation, i was just hoping that someone would say "use pthalo green" or "permanent green deep will always end up looking dull if blended with red"

thanks for the help, this site is great.

tom

mame
07-01-2001, 07:17 PM
Hey Tom, you already know what you're doing. Ain't nothin' easy about Art.

But you know what? Why using Liquitex? It's so darn full of binder/ has so little pigment in it I think it can only hinder you - but then this is just an unsolicited opinion so ignore me.

RedShoes
07-03-2001, 12:06 AM
mame: I have been using acrylics off and on. I've alwaysy used Liquitex. Mind you, I consider myself a true novice, have not begun to scratch the surface. When you mentioned that this brand is full of binders, it made me want to ask...why is this a bad thing? Remember, I'm a newbie/novice so I need some spoon feeding here... :)

cuttlefish
07-03-2001, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by RedShoes
mame: I have been using acrylics off and on. I've alwaysy used Liquitex. Mind you, I consider myself a true novice, have not begun to scratch the surface. When you mentioned that this brand is full of binders, it made me want to ask...why is this a bad thing? Remember, I'm a newbie/novice so I need some spoon feeding here... :)

As I mentioned in another thread, paint viscosity in acrylics has little to do with pigment loads. In its native state, aqueous acrylic polymer emulion has the consistency of milk. To thicken it into a buttery gel state alkali additives are required. (see www.goldenacrylics.com for detailed technical info about this) Some manufacturers also add matting agents and other things to stabilize sheen and color shift during drying. All this stuff leaves the acrylic base with less capacity to hold pigment. As a result, lower viscosity formulas often have HIGHER pigment loads than thicker paints. :cat: In the case of Liquitex, their heavy body tube colors have one third the pigment load of their medium viscosity counterparts.

Student and craft grade paints are even more compromized, often having sub-optimal pigment loads and sometimes even excess water--more than what is normally needed to keep sealed paint wet.

mame
07-03-2001, 09:09 AM
Thank you for your clear explanation.

My experience is of the tactile sort. Thanks for verbalizing it.

sarkana
07-04-2001, 12:31 PM
knowing there are no easy answers, i'd like to propose to answer your original question: pthalo green is the best compliment for most reds, it will turn most reds to black in mixture. for oranger reds, use a blue shade of pthalo, for bluer reds use a yellow shade of pthalo green. and i think you're right to suspect that permanent green will turn to mud in mixture. i'd avoid any paint with "permanent" in the title: it almost guarantees what you are getting contains little pigment and lots of inexpensive, unpredictable dyes.

as a student i used as much liquitex as i could get my hands on. and liquitex pthalocyanine green blends almost perfectly with napthol crimson to make a deep black. but i'd avoid the liquitex cadmiums: i don't think there's much actual cadmium in them for one and the opaque fillers they seem to be putting in just weighed my paintings down. but all this is discussed at length in the thread about peoples' favorite brands in this same forum.

of course, now that i know better, i use golden, lascaux, or my own homemade paints for acrylic processes.

VictoriaS
07-09-2001, 01:58 PM
Mame and cuttlefish: You're teaching me things here.

What about Golden? As far as I have noticed (I admit there's a lot that gets by me), the viscosity of Golden Heavy Body is about the same as that of Liquitex High Viscosity. But Golden is better? Or are you recommending a Golden other than the Heavy Body? And Grumbacher is good? Which formulation (assuming there's more than one)?

Thanks,
Victoria

sarkana
07-10-2001, 09:49 AM
golden is the best. but don't take my word for it. read the favortie brands thread:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13483

VictoriaS
07-10-2001, 12:05 PM
Thanks, Sarakana.