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View Full Version : Pr 209 or 207 in oils, anybody using?


Bradicus
11-17-2014, 11:41 PM
Hey,
Is anyone using pr209 in oils. Quin red
Particularly MGraham if you have, but any brand.

Or pr207 in rembrandt, etc.

I am curious how it mixes, strength, etc. How you like it. Did you replace cads with.

Both are transparent. This is the reason for my question. I need a cad lt red in transparent. Or semi transparent.

And how compares to pyrrole254(255) if you have that experience.

I use, typically, wn, grum,MG, rembrandt, blueridge, gamblin and sennelier.
Thanks,
Brad

Patrick1
11-18-2014, 04:27 AM
Brad,
I've used PR209, but only in acrylics, so I offer this for what it's worth. It's transparent, somewhat weak tinting, and unlike Cadmium Reds, it becomes quite a lot more pinkish/purplish in undertone and especially in tints with white. It's a very attractive, versatile color, mixes cleanly in both directions, but 'works' very different than any Cadmium Red. I haven't tried PR207 yet - it's similar to PR209 but a bit more orangy.

The opaque PR254 & PR255 Pyrrole Reds (there are also transparent ones but these are less common) are probably the closest/best substitutes for Cadmium Reds. They're similar in color to Cad Reds but they tint a little bit more pinkish, and unlike the Cad Reds, they can mix dull purples. From what I remember, tinting strength was moderate to moderately high.

Gigalot
11-18-2014, 11:34 AM
I have Maimeri Classico PR209 Quinacridone Red. In linseed oil binder, however.
It is a useful color for me.
First - it is bright transparent rose paint. Second - it's color can't be mixed using any other color. I do not use it "against" Cadmium Red. I use it sparingly with my Cadmiums.

Bradicus
11-18-2014, 02:10 PM
Patrick and Gigalot, thanks for replies.

I was curious about the tints, and expected it would shift to pinks.

Not replacing cads, although I dont love them, but using aswell along side.
Need a transparent or semi-t.

The pyrroles are interesting, but that is all for me right now.

Cheers,
Brad

Mythrill
11-18-2014, 02:13 PM
Not replacing cads, although I dont love them, but using aswell along side.
Need a transparent or semi-t.

The pyrroles are interesting, but that is all for me right now.

Cheers,
Brad
Brad, you mentioned Pyrroles. Have you tried Pyrrole Red Light (PR 255) and Pyrrole Red Medium (PR 254)? If you want to replace cadmiums, they are your best bets, and the most lightfast ones, too they are as lightfast as cadmium reds, minus moisture sensitivity!

Bradicus
11-18-2014, 03:12 PM
Mythrill,
I havent tried them. Do you use alot? Like better thqn cads?
Some do like them better. I hear 254 is slightly prefered over pr255.
Less orange. Though the dfference cant be much if you look at the angle.

I see several of the brands I frequent have one/both/mix of them.

I really enjoy exploring new pigments, but at the same time, I dont want a hundred unused tubes. Ya know?

Cheers,
Brad

Gigalot
11-18-2014, 03:27 PM
If you want to replace cadmiums, they are your best bets, and the most lightfast ones, too they are as lightfast as cadmium reds, minus moisture sensitivity!
Pyrrole PR254 is weatherfast paint. It is not as lightfast as Cadmium is. And PR255 is less lightast than PR254. It is good choise but not "great" Phthalo is more lightfast pigment... BASF recommended PO67 pigment to use as an industrial coating, while thei Pyrroles are in the "can be used" item.

BTW, Norma Professional oil colours has:

Vermilion red
light
★★★★★ ■
Pyrazolochinazolon
Diketo-Pyrrolo-Pyrrol
Pyrazoloquinazolon
Diketo-Pyrrolo-Pyrrole
PO 67
PR 255
opaque, lightfastness - five stars.
http://www.schmincke.de/fileadmin/downloads/Farbkarte_Norma.pdf

Mythrill
11-18-2014, 04:07 PM
Mythrill,
I havent tried them. Do you use alot? Like better thqn cads?
Some do like them better. I hear 254 is slightly prefered over pr255.
Less orange. Though the dfference cant be much if you look at the angle.

I see several of the brands I frequent have one/both/mix of them.

I really enjoy exploring new pigments, but at the same time, I dont want a hundred unused tubes. Ya know?

Cheers,
Brad

Brad, I have Pyrrole Red Light (PR 255). It's between Cadmium Red Light and Cadmium Red Medium (PR 108), but more saturated.

I have Winsor & Newton's paint (Finity). PR 255 is usually semi-opaque, but this version of the pigment was made to be particularly opaque. I would say Winsor & Newton's version is almost on par with Cadmiums in terms of opacity, that's for sure.

Bradicus
11-18-2014, 05:14 PM
If you had po73 pyrrole org and pr209, do you think you could mix a passable 255/4? And white to cheat it just that tiny bit...

Chroma might just be out of reach.
Obviously much more transparent.

I have been wanting to try and get cadredmed pr108 out of pr264 and po73.
But I think it is even farther away.

But until I try,
Brad

Mythrill
11-18-2014, 05:38 PM
If you had po73 pyrrole org and pr209, do you think you could mix a passable 255/4? And white to cheat it just that tiny bit...

Chroma might just be out of reach.
Obviously much more transparent.

I have been wanting to try and get cadredmed pr108 out of pr264 and po73.
But I think it is even farther away.

But until I try,
Brad
Brad, adding white to paint will lighten the paint, but also kill chroma.

The best alternative to lightening the paint while still keeping saturation high is to actually add medium to your paint. In the case of acrylics, that means adding gloss / matte gel. In the case of oils, linseed + mineral spirits or, even better: filler + linseed oil, e.g, oleogel.

If you lack medium, you can also mix your red with pigment one hue warmer. In the case of a middle red, that would be adding orange to the mix, e.g, Pyrrole Orange (PO 71).

As for PR 209 in particular, does yours look like this?

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/18-Nov-2014/96427-01630_QuinaRed-l.jpg


If so, the hue is very close to PR 255, just a bit less orange. To make it look opaque, I'd suggest mixing your Pyrrole Orange (PO 73) with Titanium White (PW 6), letting it dry, and then, glazing with PR 209 over Pyrrole Orange. The orange-red / red-orange you'll get will not only give the illusion of opacity, but it will also look very saturated!

(The point here is that the underlayer has to look less saturated and lighter valued than the final color, since glazing darkens the final color).

Gigalot
11-18-2014, 06:01 PM
PR209 is very transparent, but you can mix PR254 hue with it.

Patrick1
11-18-2014, 06:06 PM
Not replacing cads, although I dont love them, but using aswell along side.
Need a transparent or semi-t.
To use alongside cadmiums, a pryrrole red would be superfluous (in my opinion!) because it's already quite similar - unless one is very deep and the other is light/orangy.

If you go with 2 reds, it's a good idea to have one opaque, the other transparent (and possibly dark), and of different hue. This is why a popular choice of reds on the palette pairs a middle or orangy-red Cadmium or Pyrrple with a darker, more purplish Quinacridone, PR177 (or other Aliz. Crimson hue), or PR264. This strategy maximizes mixing potential - which may or may not be your priority. Some might get by with only a single, versatile red like PR209 :)

If you had po73 pyrrole org and pr209, do you think you could mix a passable 255/4? And white to cheat it just that tiny bit...

Chroma might just be out of reach.
Obviously much more transparent.

I have been wanting to try and get cadredmed pr108 out of pr264 and po73.
But I think it is even farther away.
PO73 + PR209 will make a red that is 'clean' but won't have the opaque brightness and 'punch' of PR255 or 254. PO73 + PR264 will also make a red darker and more transparent than Cad Red Medium. These mixes might or might not be satisfactory for your purposes - only you can decide.

Bradicus
11-18-2014, 07:19 PM
I am excited, I enjoy discussing pigments and mixing.

Ok Mythrill, it seems that to the eye IMO, if you put just a touch of white in a opaque that you gain that little bit. Could just be me. As an aside, I spent a good portion of Sat mixing pr264 and po110 to try and get a saturated red...no can do. haha, was fun though, pushing it every higher until it was obvious, thats it. I don't think I used the medium to its full advantage.
I don't have a pr209 yet., or po73 for that matter. I am looking for a super versatile red that falls in the transparent/semi trans area to get. there are quite a few.
In reference, I love glazing to add depth, transparentness, and Satuation. Looks amazing

Gigalot, I looked that Norma vermillion up at blick. Gorgeous red with a hint of org. I wonder if that would be a semi opaque, or a semi transparent.
15$ for 35ml.
Do you have this one?
What did you mean by 209 is transparent but you can mix 264 with it? I didn't follow that.
Gigalot, if I remember correctly, you prefer 122 for your deep red/magenta correct? I think I bought it because you had mentioned it being so good. cant remember now. but I have it. It's nice. But my first choice is rembrandt Madder deep pr264. Just perfect.

Patrick, I am of your thinking entirely. Pyrrole and cad together would be pointless. Mine is just a curiosity about those 254/5 pigments.
I use, as you say, cad red light, and pr264 for versatility but I would like a 'bright' red that is transparent for mixing near reds(otherwise doesn't really matter).

Super informative, Cheers,
Brad

Mythrill
11-18-2014, 09:19 PM
I am excited, I enjoy discussing pigments and mixing.

Ok Mythrill, it seems that to the eye IMO, if you put just a touch of white in a opaque that you gain that little bit. Could just be me.

Hi, Brad!

I see what you are talking about, and I apologize for not remembering. What happens with most synthetic-organic pigments, e.g, phthalos, is that they are so dark in masstone that adding white indeed increases their saturation. However, after a certain point (usually around N4-N5 in my scale), they tend to lighten and lose saturation. Transparent iron oxides also follow this trend due to small particle size.

Pigments with linear saturation curves (e.g, cadmiums) will always lose their saturation when mixed with white. Either when dealing with these linear pigments or with high-strength pigments past their peak, however, you must be careful not to kill the chroma when mixing them with white.

You can also see an explanation at Gamblin's site though not entirely accurate: http://www.gamblincolors.com/newsletters/studionotes19.html

WFMartin
11-19-2014, 10:19 PM
Yes, I use M. Graham's Quinacridone Red (PR209), and I like it very much. It is a good transition color that occurs between the very-close-to-Magenta Thalo Red Rose of Grumbacher's, or Permanent Rose 502 of Winsor & Newton's, each of which are (PV19),........and Cadmium Red Light of Grumbacher's.

This plot of the colors I did myself shows its location:
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/19-Nov-2014/13079-LTF_Circle_W_Colors_Callouts.jpg

It is not as "cool" (not as much Blue Light reflectance) as Thalo Red Rose, and not as "warm" (not as much Blue Light absorption) as Cad. Red Light.

It is a wonderful color, and very useful in M. Graham's oil paint.:thumbsup: I use it for many flower paintings, and I would certainly recommend it for anyone interested in trying it.

Bradicus
11-19-2014, 11:53 PM
WFMartin,
Thanks for the reference: will try the MGraham 209 then.
I too have grumbachers thalo red rose. I really like it alot.
My go to dark red/magenta is madder deep by rembrandt, which is a good pairing with cad red unless you need a bright transparent.

Thanks,
Brad

WFMartin
11-20-2014, 02:04 AM
WFMartin,
Thanks for the reference: will try the MGraham 209 then.
I too have grumbachers thalo red rose. I really like it alot.
My go to dark red/magenta is madder deep by rembrandt, which is a good pairing with cad red unless you need a bright transparent.

Thanks,
Brad

M. Graham also offers a good Anthraquinone Red (PR177), which is a very good substitute for Alizarin Crimson. I did not happen to do a color analysis of that color, though, and it's not plotted on the wheel, so I can't say for sure where its location would be.

redgreen
11-20-2014, 12:48 PM
I have the PR 209 Q redin M Graham and straight out of the tube it is somewhat unremarkable (close to PR177) but less dark. It mixes down to the lightest brightest pinks however.
I also have the MG pv19 Rose and it mixes down to a slightly blue pink and Ifind it a bit redundant.
I like the pr254 in WN (pyrrole) it looks exactly the same as my pr108 (Cadmium) staight out of the tube. It mixes down to a pink however (not as bright as pr209) and the Cadmium down to a peach. It is semi opaque.
In the Quinacridones I would probably go for the pr209 and the PR12 and omit pr 209 but perhaps it is a necessary.

Mythrill
11-20-2014, 03:42 PM
Bill, thanks for the color wheel. It's always very useful. By the way, is "Permanent Rose" (PV 19-gamma), from Winsor & Newton, closer from "Thalo Red Rose" or "Quinacridone Red"?

Brad, the Pyrroles are closer in masstone to cadmiums, but in tints, they are a bit redder close to Chinese Vermillion (PR 106).

If you want to stick with an all-around magenta, PR 122 is amazing. To mix a hue around Quinacridone Rose, add an orange-red (PR 255 or PR 254) to it. The difference is that it will be slightly more opaque, but it will still be quite beautiful.

If you want to get an Alizarin Crimson hue (deep red variation), an option that Gigalot likes (and that I like as well) is simply adding Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR 101) to PR 122. It's beautiful and useful!

Brad, I got curious about Madder Deep (PR 264). Can you show a few mixes with it?

Gigalot
11-20-2014, 04:54 PM
I checked PO67 pigment in the organic pigments book. They wrote: "Very bright, very opaque red orange pigment, commercially available in it's most opaque form. Pyrazollo-Quinazolone orange.

Bradicus
11-21-2014, 01:59 AM
...If you want to get an Alizarin Crimson hue (deep red variation), an option that Gigalot likes (and that I like as well) is simply adding Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR 101) to PR 122. It's beautiful and useful!

Brad, I got curious about Madder Deep (PR 264). Can you show a few mixes with it?
I bought this 122 due to Gigalots frequent mention.
Haven't used it much except to play with...I really like it.

so shown from left to right is GR thao violet(Gigalot's pr122), Rem pre Madder deep pr264, gamblin perm AC( a mix of thalo emerald pg36and pr177), GR thalo red rose pv19, GR student grade acad Grum Red(napthal pr112), and MG cad red light which I think is pr108 from memory.
Down side is Sennelier tit/zinc white, MG UB, MG cad yell light and MG viridian.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2014/1961250-IMG_1172.jpeg

second pic is pr264 tinted with Grumbacher soft Titanium wt.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2014/1961250-IMG_1146_copy.jpeg

Gigalot
11-21-2014, 03:41 AM
I bought this 122 due to Gigalots frequent mention.
Haven't used it much except to play with...I really like it.

A very lightfast pigment in my test. Trusted thing! I have an exotic PR87 Thioindigo Red Brown and this PR122 also gives a very pleasant mixture with it. :)

WFMartin
11-22-2014, 12:35 AM
Bill, thanks for the color wheel. It's always very useful. By the way, is "Permanent Rose" (PV 19-gamma), from Winsor & Newton, closer from "Thalo Red Rose" or "Quinacridone Red"?

Thalo Red Rose is Grumbacher's version of Winsor & Newton's Permanent Rose 502. They are each PV19, and in use, they seem quite identical.

They would each plot at basically the exact location on the color wheel.

Mythrill
11-22-2014, 09:17 AM
I bought this 122 due to Gigalots frequent mention.
Haven't used it much except to play with...I really like it.

so shown from left to right is GR thao violet(Gigalot's pr122), Rem pre Madder deep pr264, gamblin perm AC( a mix of thalo emerald pg36and pr177), GR thalo red rose pv19, GR student grade acad Grum Red(napthal pr112), and MG cad red light which I think is pr108 from memory.
Down side is Sennelier tit/zinc white, MG UB, MG cad yell light and MG viridian.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2014/1961250-IMG_1172.jpeg

second pic is pr264 tinted with Grumbacher soft Titanium wt.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/21-Nov-2014/1961250-IMG_1146_copy.jpeg

Oh, no! All those reds... must... resist!...

Mythrill
11-22-2014, 09:22 AM
Thalo Red Rose is Grumbacher's version of Winsor & Newton's Permanent Rose 502. They are each PV19, and in use, they seem quite identical.

They would each plot at basically the exact location on the color wheel.

Thank you so much, Bill! Your feedback about color theory is always wonderful. :)

JamieWG
11-22-2014, 10:36 PM
I've tried PR209. I'm with the consensus here; I'm not a fan. It's very weak, and there are other transparent reds that I find far more useful.

My absolute favorite transparent red is PR206. Watercolorists and acrylic artists use it all the time. I don't know why it's not standard fare for oil painters! I think only Maimeri Puro and Daniel Smith make it for oils. The Maimeri Puro version is much better, IMO. It's at a price point that can break the bank, but it's worth it! I don't know why Winsor Newton and Williamsburg don't make it in oils, since they have it in their acrylic and/or watercolor lines and obviously have the pigment! The only other thing I've found that comes close is PR175, but I can't seem to find that one in oils either. It's a less expensive pigment I think, so it should be cheaper if I can get it! (I don't think either of those would do for a cad red replacement though, which is the subject of this thread.)

As for other reds mentioned above:

Pyrroles --- I love 'em. They are my staples as far as reds go. I'm especially a fan of PR255, since my tastes do lean toward warmer reds on my palette. I use PR254 also. I use them as cadmium red substitutes, so either I have a cad red or else one of the pyrroles. Although they look so close to the cadmium reds, they yield much cleaner mixes than the cadmiums, so that's an advantage.

I have a few different versions of PR264. They're all less dark and less transparent than I hoped when I ordered them. I like the color, but find I don't use them much.

For cool reds I like PR177 or PR183, or sometimes PV19 (Quin Red - but not a really violet version of it). I don't find much use for PR122. That one gathers dust around here.

Brad, you asked:
If you had po73 pyrrole org and pr209, do you think you could mix a passable 255/4?
I've mixed PV19 and PO73 in Golden High Flow, because the Golden High Flow line does not yet have a Pyrrole Red. It's a bit more transparent, but aside from that, it's pretty bang-on. I don't think the PR209 would be strong enough to do that job though.

Gigalot
11-24-2014, 04:19 PM
I have an example of PR209 in my painting :)

Bradicus
11-24-2014, 05:11 PM
I have an example of PR209 in my painting :)
That is amazingly beautiful. Truely.
So delicate in your colour shifts.
The brush work is phenomenal.
Would you post entire painting please,
Brad

Gigalot
11-24-2014, 05:52 PM
That is amazingly beautiful. Truely.
So delicate in your colour shifts.
The brush work is phenomenal.
Would you post entire painting please,
Brad
Wow, thank you! It was sold more than a year ago. But it was posted in oil painting forum. "Wisteria in blossom" as I remember..It was one day Alla-prima painting on a small size canvas. Therefore, brush strokes are quite visible.

Bradicus
11-24-2014, 06:11 PM
Found it, May 14th, 2013.

Just beautiful!
The brush strokes in the petals add so much.
I strive for that delicate feel wiith brush marks.

No wonder it sold!

Brad

Gigalot
11-25-2014, 11:56 AM
I just forgot about one "Alizarin" paint:
http://www.dickblick.com/items/01571-3263/#colorswatch
I can get it but not sure. Pigment PR187. How can it works?