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redgreen
11-10-2014, 01:11 PM
Hello,
I realize that there is a fair amount of past info on this subject but I haven't had much success Alizarin replacements yet. I liked it as a mixture for darks.
Alizarin didn't muddy down as quickly as using a brown of Cad red. The Quinacridone shades I've tried etc are too blueish or pale.

I find Anthraquinone red red too pale (M Graham) and the Gamblin Alizarin substitute, I bought some years ago, was too brownish.

Was wondering what WN's Permanent Carmine was like as a substitute? The number 479 doesn't seem to link up with information.
Or are there are any new substitutes out there?
Thanks of your thoughts.

Lobke Spain
11-10-2014, 01:31 PM
W&N sells permanent Alizarin Crimson too.

ASTM I, W&N test as Excellent lightfastness.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2014/1892143-9853.jpg

Gigalot
11-10-2014, 04:15 PM
You might need W&N "Purple Madder"? It can give deep color:
http://www.dickblick.com/items/00461-6403/#colorswatch

redgreen
11-10-2014, 05:35 PM
Thanks, I saw the WN Permanent Alizarin online but it doesn't look as if it goes as dark as the original. Also wondering what the 468 stands for? There is no prefix.
Think the Purple Madder might be too brownish/bluish.

Mythrill
11-10-2014, 06:05 PM
Thanks, I saw the WN Permanent Alizarin online but it doesn't look as if it goes as dark as the original.
That's easy to solve, even though it's a bit awkward. You actually need two colors: one for the masstone, and another for the middle tones and everything more lighter valued.

For the middle tones, just use Permanent Alizarin Crimson"(PR 177), Winsor & Newton's Permanent Carmine (PR N/A) or my favorite: a blend of Quinacridone Magenta + Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR 122 + PR 101). If you want to get Transparent Red Iron Oxide from Winsor & Newton, they sell it as Burnt Sienna.

As for the masstone, if you want to stick with Winsor & Newton, an interesting color to try is their Transparent Maroon (PBr 25). It looks like this:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/10-Nov-2014/96427-00461_Trans.Maroon-l.jpg

If you want a redder masstone color, all you need is to mix this with their Permanent Alizarin Crimson.

I really like Perylene Maroon (PR 179) to represent the darker masstone color, but, for some odd reason, Winsor & Newton doesn't sell it in oils.

Bradicus
11-10-2014, 08:13 PM
Redgreen,
I have the new gamblin perm AC and I thought it mixed nearly identical to AC.
They changed it a while back to two pigments from 3. You may have the old, first go at it, version.

Blue ridge paints also makes a good one, but quite a bit stronger than typical AC.

My new favorite is Rembrandt Permanent Madder deep. PR264.
It works perfectly for me as a AC replacement.
I am really liking it.

My Two Cents!
Brad

Mythrill
11-10-2014, 09:40 PM
Redgreen,
I have the new gamblin perm AC and I thought it mixed nearly identical to AC.
They changed it a while back to two pigments from 3. You may have the old, first go at it, version.

Blue ridge paints also makes a good one, but quite a bit stronger than typical AC.

My new favorite is Rembrandt Permanent Madder deep. PR264.
It works perfectly for me as a AC replacement.
I am really liking it.

My Two Cents!
Brad

Brad, I just saw Gamblin's "Alizarin Permanent". I was really impressed: the masstone is actually darker than that of Alizarin Crimson, and the mixes with white were only slightly bluer than the real deal (though almost imperceptible!)

I'm ok with it being a 3-pigment mix. What I don't like there, actually, is PR 149 (Perylene Red). According to Dickblick, it may darken in sunlight, and, overall, it's not a very lightfast pigment yes, it's much more lightfast than Alizarin, but still...

Handprint gives PR 267 a lightfastness of 6,7. It might have improved in lightfastness since then, but considering how light in masstone it is, I'd rather stick to a blend of PR 122 + PR 101 for general use myself!

redgreen
11-10-2014, 09:42 PM
Thanks Everyone,
Didn't realize that Gamblin had changed their formula (mine had 3 pigments) so might give it a go.
The Rembrant pr264color sounds good but it is hard to see if it has the rich darks that Alizeran has.

I too like Perylene Maroon, (dramatic) but it does brown down in mixes.

Mythrill
11-10-2014, 10:04 PM
Thanks Everyone,
Didn't realize that Gamblin had changed their formula (mine had 3 pigments) so might give it a go.
The Rembrant pr264color sounds good but it is hard to see if it has the rich darks that Alizeran has.

I too like Perylene Maroon, (dramatic) but it does brown down in mixes.
Redgreen, if you want Perylene Maroon (PR 179) and you want to avoid the browning, just mix it with Permanent Rose/Quinacridone Rose/Quinacridone Red (PV 19-gamma). The closer to white, the more Permanent Rose will be in the mix, and the closer to black, the more Perylene Maroon will be in the mix.

Alternatively, you can mix Permanent Rose with white, wait for it to dry, and glaze Perylene Maroon over it. The colors you will get will be incredibly beautiful!

Don't forget to prime your canvas before painting, too. This will prevent support-induced discoloration (SID), increase paint saturation (bigger pigment absorbency) , and prevent impurities from migrating from your canvas to your paint, which can cause all sorts of color change. For oils, an interesting, homemade gesso is to isolate the canvas with PVA glue and water, wait for it to dry, and then cover it with a mix of linseed oil, Titanium White (PW 6) or any other color of your choice and calcium sulphate (PW 25).

Alternatively, you can apply acrylic gesso on your canvas to isolate and prime it, and gently wash it with soap and water and allowing it to dry before painting!

Bradicus
11-11-2014, 12:38 AM
Brad, I just saw Gamblin's "Alizarin Permanent"...
I'm ok with it being a 3-pigment mix. What I don't like there, actually, is PR 149 (Perylene Red). According to Dickblick, it may darken in sunlight, and, overall, it's not a very lightfast pigment yes, it's much more lightfast than Alizarin, but still...

Mythrill,
DickBlick lists the old one with three. Not updated.
New one is pg36 phthalo emerald and Anthraquinone red pr 177( 177 does pretty well in oils, boarderline LF1-2 if I remember correctly)

Cheers,
Brad

WFMartin
11-11-2014, 02:24 AM
Old Holland offers a Burgundy Wine Red. However, I believe that is just PR177, and you have indicated you don't care for that color.

budigart
11-11-2014, 10:33 AM
I have used Rembrandt's Permanent Rose Madder Deep for several years and like it. Looks and acts like Alizarin, and a tiny bit "redder." (That's a highly confidential art term . . . redder.)

Gigalot
11-11-2014, 10:45 AM
Maimeri puro Avignon orange PR206:
http://www.dickblick.com/items/01541-4590/#colorswatch
Adding PR177 or PR122 there you can get fine imitation of synthetic Alizarin crimson PR83:1
Their Crimson Lake is a mixture of PR122+PR206:
http://www.dickblick.com/items/01541-3710/#colorswatch

redgreen
11-11-2014, 01:50 PM
Actually a painting I did years ago, that has been hanging in sunlight, with Alizarin hasn't faded. Could it be that is wasn't mixed down with other colours or white?

I Like all colours just found that Alizarin worked well as a transparent dark straight out of the tube (Bellini) especially next to translucent greens. Pr 177 is lovely but doesn't seem to go very dark.

Will give some of these new ones a try. Thanks for all the suggestions! This is an amazing forum.

WFMartin
11-11-2014, 02:15 PM
Actually a painting I did years ago, that has been hanging in sunlight, with Alizarin hasn't faded. Could it be that is wasn't mixed down with other colours or white?

I Like all colours just found that Alizarin worked well as a transparent dark straight out of the tube (Bellini) especially next to translucent greens. Pr 177 is lovely but doesn't seem to go very dark.

Will give some of these new ones a try. Thanks for all the suggestions! This is an amazing forum.

I quit using Alizarin Crimson years ago when I discovered the information regarding it being considered fugitive, or having poor lightfast characteristics.

But, as careful as I am regarding such things (I just don't wish to tempt fate), I often wonder if many of us are being overly cautious regarding some of these characteristics. I believe I am overly cautious.

I avoid the use of graphite pencils (because of strike-through).

I avoid using Alizarin Crimson (because of lightfast problems).

I avoid using Rose Madder (because of lightfast problems).

I avoid using Zinc White (because of brittleness).

I am cautious regarding using many of these items, but I am also of the opinion, than when used in context, mixed with other materials, and colors of paint, their undesirable characteristics may be diminished.

For example, I use Zinc White mixed with other whites, as in Permalba White, and Flake White. I believe that its undesirable characteristics are dimished by having it mixed with other whites and with my own painting medium.

Just a thought. I don't believe that anyone's painting is going to turn black merely from having employed Alizarin Crimson as a paint color when creating it.:cool: However, with so many good substitutes for real, Alizarin Crimson, I just haven't felt the need to use it, and thereby not have to chance it.:D

Bradicus
11-12-2014, 07:48 PM
iOS update prevented me from posting earlier.
Better late than never, here is Rembrandt madder deep. Pr264
Cheers,
Brad
http://www.wetcanvas.com/Community/images/12-Nov-2014/1961250-image.jpg

redgreen
11-12-2014, 08:00 PM
Thank you
This looks great. Not available in many oil brands. Really like Pyrrole Red and it appears to be a darker version.

Anja B
11-16-2014, 02:28 PM
So what eyactly is wrong with Alizarin Crimson? Is it all about the lightfast issure?

I like it especially for mixing dark colours

budigart
11-16-2014, 02:47 PM
Historically, Alizarin is fugitive, meaning it comes out and goes on one color, but usually turns another color as time goes on. Generally, it turns brown, dark brown, to almost black. You can see how this would affect a mix of, say, Alizarin and yellow over time.

Some manufacturers now make what they call Permanent Alizarin, and some artists use these and seem to like them. Others have found substitutes. After all, Alizarin is just a cool red, or a blue red. Several other reds meet this criteria. Personally, I use Rembrandt's Permanent Madder Deep.

Gigalot
11-16-2014, 02:51 PM
So what eyactly is wrong with Alizarin Crimson? Is it all about the lightfast issure?

I like it especially for mixing dark colours
For darks it is much more lightfast and pretty nice, but it can fade in tints with white in which it can be easily replaced with any good rose paint. :D It is unbeatable pigment only in masstone. Those Alizarin substitutes are more lightfast and probably, can have better color purity. But in masstone real Alizarin always won. :clap:

Historically, it was the only one permanent vegetable organic color. Other colors like Indigo, Carmine, yellow Lake were really fugitive and discolored, while Alizarin (Madder Lake) is moderately lightfast. It can stay thousand years if well preserved.

Patrick1
11-16-2014, 03:42 PM
I don't know about Alizarin darkening; in my accelerated lightfastness testing (in a south-facing window), my W&N Artists' oil Alizarin Crimson completely disappeared in all but the thickest parts after a few years.

Mythrill
11-16-2014, 04:17 PM
So what eyactly is wrong with Alizarin Crimson? Is it all about the lightfast issure?

I like it especially for mixing dark colours

Excellent question, Anja. Let me quote with an excellent reply and add to it.


Historically, Alizarin is fugitive, meaning it comes out and goes on one color, but usually turns another color as time goes on. Generally, it turns brown, dark brown, to almost black. You can see how this would affect a mix of, say, Alizarin and yellow over time.


A fugitive color is one that actually fades when reacting to light, i.e, it tends to disappear over time. It may also fade or darken before. Here's what I can state considering my sample, which is closer to Madder Lake (NR9) in hue and behavior.

Alizarin (PR 83) darkens, fades, and disappears over time. The first thing that is gone is the bluishness: it's very bluish when it first comes, out of the tube, and it's not too different from Quinacridone Rose (PV 19-gamma).

After a few days, it loses lots of the bluishness, starting to lean towards a yellow, but still quite saturated. This time, the deep, red tones predominate.

After a few months, it turns more brownish and more dullish, similar to Perylene Maroon (PR 179) in masstone the difference being that Perylene Maroon is completely lightfast.

If you used your Alizarin Crimson full strength, without any mixing, it should be stable for a few more years 100 years, if you are lucky. This is one reason Alizarin was used in full strength in cheeks, lips, and in dresses: it was the most lightfast way to use it.

Notice Alizarin is very reactive, so mixing with other colors will cause it to fade faster particularly, if mixed with natural Yellow Ochre (PY 43).

To give you an example of how bad this fading is, the lightest mix with Titanium White (PW 6), from my Munsell-style chips has started to fade after less than 6 months. It's fading even protected from sunlight. Then only exposure is when I fetch the chip to see it again.

Alizarin is very beautiful in masstone, but there are great mixes if not better to replace it in this specific situation, which would be the hardest to replace it in most media. If we are talking about using it as a base for mixes, then any quinacridone will readily substitute it again, also probably doing a much better job.

Notice that if you use Alizarin as a foundation for other mixes in your painting, it can discolor severely: if you paint portraits, do you really want your relative's skin tones to fade to a sickly, grayish color? You paint commissions, this could ruin the value of your work!

Mythrill
11-16-2014, 04:24 PM
I don't know about Alizarin darkening; in my accelerated lightfastness testing (in a south-facing window), my W&N Artists' oil Alizarin Crimson completely disappeared in all but the thickest parts after a few years.

Hi, Patrick!

Some variations of Alizarin are actually synthetic Madder Lake, which is close to NR9, but with a purer color and stronger tinting strength compared to NR9. They have no specific code, though, and they're registered commercially as Alizarin (PR 83). If your sample has purpurin, your paint will darken after a while, showing only Alizarin, and then it'll start to fade. This is precisely why Madder (NR 9) that is correctly prepared is considered to be more lightfast than Alizarin (PR 83).

Of course, thanks to modern chemistry and quinacridones, we don't need to choose between the very fugitive and the fugitive!

Anja B
11-17-2014, 08:55 AM
Thank you all for your explanations! I didn't know that. Made me think about my use of Alizarin, as I'm using it in every portrait ever since... :(

I also just realised some spelling mistakes in the previous post. Sorry for that. Sometimes I'm writing faster than I'm thinking, without controlling it afterwards :angel: